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Old 04-19-2008, 10:54 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Are political leanings imprinted in your genes? (A.K.A. Are we wasting time here?)

I read this when it was published and found it rather fascinating. Can't say I found it particularly surprising though.

Quote:
Frank Sulloway, a psychologist at the University of California, Berkeley, backs the idea that genes can influence political attitudes, but admits the results may sound odd. "There's no such thing as a gene for disliking hippies," he says. The point is that certain genes shape personality traits, and these are linked to political opinion.

Are political leanings imprinted in your genes?   click to show 
This is just one example of why we may be wasting our time here, but there are many. Another: it has been demonstrated that the brain is rather defensive in terms of being wrong. I think we've all come across situations where we think "they can't really believe that!" when someone, in our opinion, is being entirely illogical to justify a previous belief. Well, they do believe that. In fact, they must believe that, because the brain has a hard time accepting that an initial, strongly held premise was wrong.

The important thing to remember is that this is rarely conscious. Ustwo, for example, likes to claim that Obama supporters will attempt to justify anything, no matter how ridiculous, because they don't want to admit that Obama is just another politician. Now, obviously I disagree with that, and it has been pointed out that very few people here, if any, view Obama as the messianic figure others sometimes claim he is viewed as. Still, even if Ustwo were right, it's not something that anyone is likely to realize consciously, and certainly not something they are likely to change.

If there's one thing I've noticed over time, it's that discussions here often lead to both sides being frustrated at the sheer obtuseness of the other. Assuming that we believe we're right when we argue for something (and why would we argue for it if we didn't?), and defining obtuseness as the inability to see and accept what is right, as defined by our own perception, then of course the other side is obtuse. In some ways, they are biologically and/or sociologically incapable of seeing things the "right" way, whatever you may think that is.

Regardless of the neurobiological reasons, I think we've all experienced this and know it is true to some degree. How many times have you spent time explaining something that, in your mind, demonstrates under no uncertain terms that you are right - and maybe you are - only to have the recipient of your explanation completely misunderstand/misinterpret/reject your words. The lesson is, perhaps it has little to do with what is right or wrong, and more to do with the way our brains are designed, not to mention our other sociological and psychological influences.

So isn't it a waste of time to attempt to convince the other person that you're right, regardless of what "side" you're arguing for? Perhaps we'd make a lot more progress if we stopped wondering how we're supposed to relate to Bush supporters, or how we can get those with more liberal leanings to see the light, and instead accepted that we will, in many ways, never understand each other. Instead, we could focus on learning how to live with those we don't understand and finding ways to compromise, rather than making futile attempts to completely change someone's mind.

Some food for thought. Discuss.
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Old 04-19-2008, 10:59 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Commencing Republicans/Democrats are birth defects jokes in 5... 4... 3...
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Old 04-19-2008, 11:01 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martian
Commencing Republicans/Democrats are birth defects jokes in 5... 4... 3...
Yeah, how about we all pretend that those jokes have already been made and move on to actual discussion without them
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Old 04-19-2008, 11:24 AM   #4 (permalink)
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It's the nature versus nurture thing.

I have a hard time believing that things like political opinions are genetically coded. I suspect this is an extreme form of the current trend of blaming everything on genetics.
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Old 04-19-2008, 11:42 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretMethod70
....So isn't it a waste of time to attempt to convince the other person that you're right, regardless of what "side" you're arguing for? Perhaps we'd make a lot more progress if we stopped wondering how we're supposed to relate to Bush supporters, or how we can get those with more liberal leanings to see the light, and instead accepted that we will, in many ways, never understand each other. Instead, we could focus on learning how to live with those we don't understand and finding ways to compromise, rather than making futile attempts to completely change someone's mind.

Some food for thought. Discuss.
I have to disagree, because the facts that occasionally come out, know no right or left.

This is the best way that I can think of as to why I "keep going" on this forum. If I didn't participate here, I wouldn't be motivated to have put all of this where I can retrieve it from memory, and put it up for others to consider.

I offer the opportunity, and I already gathered it up, so I know what I know, because of it. The examples below, speak volumes, they are damned tough to argue with. I know that anyone who still looks favorably upon the people quoted below, are "reality challenged". I don't suspect it....because of this "material", I know it. I don't need to be right. The information, in their own words, tells me I was right before they finally were cornered into making the admissions displayed below.

This "stuff" comes out all too infrequently, but it is truth, as close to unspun truth as is ever available. It cuts like a circular saw through mountains of "spin" and un or mis informed opnion. It is what it is....
Nothing to do with OP   click to show 


EDIT: I have read the items behind and find that they do not relate to the OP with respect to GENETICS, in fact no words GENES or GENETICS appear in the hidden quotes.

Last edited by Cynthetiq; 04-19-2008 at 01:53 PM.. Reason: used HIDE function to clear up the overflow
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Old 04-19-2008, 11:48 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Martian:

Nurture certainly plays a role as well.

Though it has long been demonstrated that political leanings are inherited. It used to be that this was assumed to be a function of parenting - and that certainly plays a role - but it appears that parentage itself also has an influence (the issue of identical twins mentioned in the article is particularly noteworthy).

Another study was recently published, Partisanship, Voting, and the Dopamine D2 Receptor Gene [pdf][abstract], which demonstrated a correlation between genetics and partisanship and political participation. It's like Sulloway said in the article I quoted: the genetics don't determine specific political opinions, but they effect one's worldview which has a strong influence on political opinions.

I admit to having "nature" leanings, though I certainly don't discount that nurture has a significant role. I do think people, in general, are reluctant to accept how much we really are just animals. But every time we try to describe what makes humans different, we also seem to eventually find other animals doing similar things. Using tools is a great example: first it was unique that humans use tools. Then we found out chimps use tools. Now we know that chimps use tools, birds use tools, even rats use tools. And not only do they use tools, they can manipulate the tools in their imagination, so that they can pick the right tool to use even when they've never seen it before.

More importantly, regardless of whether or not genetics are at the root of the issue, it's pretty well demonstrated here, and elsewhere, that, for the most part, trying to get a liberal to agree with a conservative position, or vice versa, is mostly futile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by host
I have to disagree, because the facts that occasionally come out, know no right or left.
Yes, but the entire point of the OP is that the facts have nothing to do with it. How one interprets those facts definitely does know right or left. Your posts are a perfect example: you post citation after citation after citation (after citation, after citation...) and, still, you've convinced almost no one who doesn't already agree with you here.
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Last edited by SecretMethod70; 04-19-2008 at 12:02 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 04-19-2008, 11:55 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Host, please address the OP and do not use this thread to launch a tirade against a position you've taken on a different subject.

Let me remind you:

Quote:
But the forums are for discussion. This isn't about how much information there is, it isn't about tone, it isn't about how extreme an opinion is. It's about all of the above and how it fits into the context of a discussion forum.
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Old 04-19-2008, 11:58 AM   #8 (permalink)
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"There's no such thing as a gene for disliking hippies,"

I'll get back to this post later in depth but this is a lie!

I'm homozygous dominant at the hippie disliking gene.
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Old 04-19-2008, 12:04 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretMethod70
.....More importantly, regardless of whether or not genetics are at the root of the issue, it's pretty well demonstrated here, and elsewhere, that, for the most part, trying to get a liberal to agree with a conservative position, or vice versa, is mostly futile.

Yes, but the entire point of the OP is that the facts have nothing to do with it. How one interprets those facts definitely does know right or left. Your posts are a perfect example: you post citation after citation after citation (after citation, after citation...) and, still, you've convinced almost no one who doesn't already agree with you here.
My point is that I do not need to "keep score".....to know whether or not anyone is "convinced". As with the WMD controversy, where a few repetitions of the Scott McClellan's admission ended the discussion here, other disagreements are "settled" the same way. The assertions finally stop being made, in any posts. If those assertions made up the bulk of what certain members posted, the posting frequency of those members diminished, or ended.....
Nothing to do with OP   click to show 


Cynthetiq tells me he is editing my posts, but not even reading what he decides must be put behind a [hide ] tag.....
EDIT: I have read the items behind and find that they do not relate to the OP with respect to GENETICS, in fact no words GENES or GENETICS appear in the hidden quotes.

Last edited by Cynthetiq; 04-19-2008 at 01:52 PM..
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Old 04-19-2008, 12:51 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I think most of it is based on the environment you grew up in and how other people have treated you.

After watching a few of those Wife Swap shows , I know that the kids are getting brainwashed into either camp, and very few of the parents are teaching them to think for themselves and dig for more information.
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Old 04-19-2008, 01:25 PM   #11 (permalink)
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As a darwinist (from a strictly biology stand point) there is most likely some genetic ties which lead to traits which in turn can lead to that persons political philosophy.

I don't think they are measuring it right here though or the right traits. I took one of those personality tests and it related my openness low, but the questions themselves were political questions. Basically the assumption was that liberals are open so if I'm not a liberal I must not be open to new ideas. This type of reasoning makes such a test potentially inaccurate, and it was addressed in the original article as well.

Bias aside there are more variables they need to address.

The fact that 4/5ths of identical twins compared to 2/3rds of fraternal twins shared some political views is interesting but could be misleading. First 4/5ths doesn't impress me that much, we are talking identical genes, I'd expect a higher correlation if it was mostly genetic. The question being though, did each have the same information? Did one have a class where they talked about property taxes vrs one where they didn't? Did one own land and the other not? Also we need to see where the fraternal twins differed. If one was Captain of the football team and the other got the ugly lazy genes they may have different political philosophies which were caused by their life experiences which were due to their different genetic make up. So was one conservative because of his genes or because he had a different life experience? Its not as easy a question if you think about it.

My family is mostly conservative. Of the two defectors, one is a shyster lawyer of the worst kind who has gotten away with fraud for decades and the other has issues I'd rather not discuss. Both may well have conservative 'genes' but their different life path has led them perhaps to justify who they vote for without perhaps even a real switch in philosophy. Trial lawyers rely on democrats to keep the sue you gravy train going (this is a fact, check out the donations and which party protects them) it would be against his self interest for conservatives to win, so self interest would prevail as more important then general philosophy.

or.....

As a family we simply instilled conservative thought on the children as part of their general learning and two members of my family had different life experiences which altered their opinions.

But the final question I'll answer....are we wasting our breath?

Yes. With me you are wasting your breath. There is nothing you could say to make me into a liberal. If it turns out George Bush was everything host said, including virgin sacrifice, if you remember that post, and then ate live kittens as well in republican gay pedophile orgies I'd still be a conservative, I just wouldn't vote republican anymore.

With others though, perhaps not. I've known people to change their political stripes. Normally they didn't have all the information, or made wrong assumptions they later discovered were wrong which changed their minds. These people its not a waste on. I've had a few pms from people who said I've changed their minds, I even changed the mind of a life long university liberal professor once who I had frequent chats with. These people won't be posting here, at least not much or often, though they do occasionally read.
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Last edited by Ustwo; 04-19-2008 at 01:29 PM..
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Old 04-19-2008, 01:29 PM   #12 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
I've had a few pms from people who said I've changed their minds... These people won't be posting here, at least not much or often, though they do occasionally read.
Probably not the same people who have PMd me saying the same thing....from among the silent majority who read but rarely post.
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Old 04-19-2008, 01:31 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
Probably not the same people who have PMd me saying the same thing....from among the silent majority who read but rarely post.
Did you tell them who you work for?

In a scientific article that requires a disclaimer
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Old 04-19-2008, 01:33 PM   #14 (permalink)
 
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If I told them, I might have to kill them....unless they pledge to become liberal for life.
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Old 04-19-2008, 02:45 PM   #15 (permalink)
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>>Are political leanings imprinted in your genes?<<
I would think not.

>>The point is that certain genes shape personality traits, and these are linked to political opinion.<<
Coupled with nurture, I believe this might be true if one looks at IQ level. I often think it comes back to education and awareness - how much one can learn, the opportunity to learn, the ability to learn, and an interest in learning.

>>If there's one thing I've noticed over time, it's that discussions here often lead to both sides being frustrated at the sheer obtuseness of the other.<<
Are you sure this was said in the way you wanted to say it?! There are so many reasons for discussion of various topics rather than just for argument. I dont believe I have ever felt frustrated reading various posts on this forum - perhaps disbelief or surprise, or humor at someone else's opinion, folly, or obstinence (and sometimes my own!) but not frustration. Of course the very least that one gets from any discussion is education of the way that another person thinks, if nothing else. I am personally not here to change someone's opinion. No, Im here to hear others' opinions and state my own and learn something in the process.

>>So isn't it a waste of time to attempt to convince the other person that you're right, regardless of what "side" you're arguing for?<<
Oh I would say no, especially not if you look with a world view..or if that other person shares his pizza with you.
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Old 04-19-2008, 03:13 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I heard about this a few weeks ago from a friend. Just fyi, John Alford is a political scientist, not a psychologist. More info on him here

Solloway and Jost deserve some attention, though. I'd absolutely love to see the raw data on this. Until then, it's a bit fluffy.
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Old 04-19-2008, 03:43 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
(A.K.A. Are we wasting time here?)
I'm not ing. I'm getting increasing clear that we ARE.
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Old 04-19-2008, 03:56 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbastid
I'm not ing.
I am. What actual data I've seen on this phenomena is truly laughable. As a hardline liberal that comes from a long line (4 generations+ on both sides) of hardline conservatives, I'm what? A recessive gene popping up? And my little bro is recessive? And my cousins?

All this study is doing is excusing stubbornness, and it's doing a pretty weak job.
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Old 04-19-2008, 04:11 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I'm not convinced it's genetics, but I'm ever more certain we're wasting our time here.
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Old 04-19-2008, 04:21 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
As a hardline liberal that comes from a long line (4 generations+ on both sides) of hardline conservatives, I'm what?
I'm not sure about the Sulloway research, but in statistical terms, you are an n of 1. (A sample too small to make any conclusions about).
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Old 04-19-2008, 04:25 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapiens
I'm not sure about the Sulloway research, but in statistical terms, you are an n of 1. (A sample too small to make any conclusions about).
Conservative:
my father, his brothers, his parents, their parents, and their parents
my mother, her brother, her parents, their parents, and their parents
Liberal:
Me, brother, 5 additional cousins

Yes, I know it's still small.
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Old 04-19-2008, 04:27 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
I am. What actual data I've seen on this phenomena is truly laughable. As a hardline liberal that comes from a long line (4 generations+ on both sides) of hardline conservatives, I'm what? A recessive gene popping up? And my little bro is recessive? And my cousins?

All this study is doing is excusing stubbornness, and it's doing a pretty weak job.
Maybe your family trait is to be hardline and dogmatic

Quote:
Originally Posted by sapiens
I'm not sure about the Sulloway research, but in statistical terms, you are an n of 1. (A sample too small to make any conclusions about).
n = 1 is a case study.
n = 5 is still a case study.

(one of my favorite little sayings)

Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
Liberal:
Me, brother, 5 additional cousins

Yes, I know it's still small.
How many are over 30
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Last edited by Ustwo; 04-19-2008 at 05:30 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 04-19-2008, 09:21 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Maybe your family trait is to be hardline and dogmatic
Actually, while you may be joking, that may very well be true. The study I linked to in post #6 addresses biological influences on partisanship and participation.

Will: Regardless of the science, it is very well demonstrated that political leanings are generally inherited. Whether this is because of nature or nurture is up for debate, but generally inherited they are. In that sense, you are most certainly an anamoly. Whereas I fit fairly well into what's expected: my mom leans liberal and my dad leans conservative, and I identify as independent.

On the scientific side of this discussion, I completely agree that this (like many other things) is very complex. No doubt, biology is just one of a number of factors. What I take from this, though, is exactly what Ustwo just joked about: it's not so much about the specific views as it is how you treat them. The issue gets increasingly complex when you consider that nurture can be caused by nature, and then serve to reinforce nature in the nurtured. Not only is the nature vs nurture debate a difficult one, it is in many ways a question of the chicken and the egg.

But the reason I posted this thread here instead of general discussion is because of the other part of discussion here: are most Tilted Politics regulars wasting their time with regards to their posting style? This is something that deserves to be asked regardless of the biological information posted in this thread, but I found the info interesting and figured it's a nice springboard.
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Old 04-19-2008, 09:35 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Is there any way to add a poll? Something like this:
1) I have the same political leanings as my parents
2) I have a combination of the political leanings of my parents
3) I have the same political leaning as one parent
4) I have different politics than my parents' politics
5) I have opposing politics to my parents' politics

I think it'd be relevant. I'm virtually certain that I'm not alone in having vastly different political views than my parents.
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Old 04-23-2008, 09:38 AM   #25 (permalink)
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I guess I'm scratching my head here because I have changed views on a number of issues in the course of my life, sometimes on very fundamental kinds of issues. That's inconsistent with the notion that certain political views are genetically hardwired. I suppose it's possible to say that I'm also genetically openminded, but that's a bit of a copout, isn't it? Especially when certain people take the position that openmindedness is a characteristic of THEIR particular political stance.
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