Ustwo

I only just heard of this while flipping radio channels today. While we have been talking about Republicans voting for Hilary (and as many forget, Obama in the opening primaries) to some extent and the mere question brought a stream of vitriol to the poster, it is just today that I heard that Limbaugh is openly advocating this as 'Operation Chaos'.

Now when the Democrats did this to Bush in 2000, voting for McCain, I will be the first to say it angered me and showed a weakness in the primary system. Since there is no way to prove what your intentions in voting are, you can have this sort of meddling.

I also can't say I support it now, even when I find the in fighting in the democratic party amusing. They have had the perfect storm of victim hood, with a minority vrs a woman, and I lament that Condoleezza Rice did not run so we could make this a true circus (plus I think she would be an outstanding president), but that does not justify exploiting the election process.

Now doing some research on this, briefly, some of the democrat posters on various boards are quite hilarious, blaming Bush destroying the constitution for this (eh?), to calling for Limbaugh's imprisonment (huh?). All amusing, but just silly.

But one post, which sadly I didn't save the link, did get me thinking maybe I'm wrong in my stance that such tactics are wrong.

The jist was that while many of these Republicans would rather see McCain win, they would rather see Hilary than Obama as president and think that McCain will lose in the general election. Therefore they are having their say in the next presidency even if its not their first choice.

I have a hard time arguing with that logic. I'm not sure who I'd rather see as president, but if I had a clear preference would it be wrong for me to vote for that person in the primary?

I'd have to say no, though obviously it would and will irk me when it happens against someone I like running in the future.

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ratbastid

Well, in Ohio, changing parties requires signing a pledge, under penalty of election falsification, that you are aligned with the new party, it supporters, and its principles. Lying on that pledge is as felony, punishable by up to a year in jail and a $2500 fine. (Election officials found one such pledge on which the party-switcher had handwritten "For One Day"--clearly violating the law.) Inciting others to commit that felony, which is what Limbaugh did, is a fifth-degree felony as well. So, it actually IS illegal.

That strikes me as an ex post facto justification for what was, in my opinion, fairly transparent election-griefing.

Your question, though, is: is it wrong. I'd say if you honestly thought the other party's candidate was a better (by which I include "more electable") option than your own, I don't have any problem with people crossing parties to do so, provided they can do that within the laws of their locality.

Willravel

I see it more of a sign of fear on the part of the GOP, just as it was for the Dems in 2000. Bush has essentially ruined the party for all but a few fundamentalists and McCain is left trying to figure out if it's better to pander to the fundys (which he's decided to do) or try and fix the party.

Gore simply wasn't a strong enough candidate in 2000 to pull off a decisive victory. Obama? Jesus Christ is he a strong candidate. He combines the liberal charisma Dems want from a young leader with the parental finger shaking Republicans want. I don't blame the GOP for being scared at all.

Ustwo

http://blog.dispatch.com/primary/200...tioned_a.shtml

Very first hit I found on the matter, but it doesn't look like the kind of thing that would get you convicted of anything, so its still pretty silly.

For me its a moot point, I find both Obama and Hilary the same shit sandwich on different bread, but if it were say Obama vrs Liberman (oh wait he got kicked out for not being radical enough) well Obama vrs a democrat I could support I could see myself doing the same thing.

Personally on a semi-related note I think the primary system is no better than the old 'smoke filled room' system of the past. You can't say the current presidents were any better than the old ones, and the current system tends to favor the more radical candidates, McCain being an exception to that.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

ratbastid

It would take an act of extreme political willpower, to be sure.

No, he left the party on his own. And technically, it was because he wanted to sit at the cafeteria table with the other batshit-insane terrormongering warlovers.

PonyPotato

I voted in the Ohio primary. There was no statement of allegiance required of me, thankfully. I also worked the polls.. no statement of allegiance, but maybe that was because no one switched parties. For absentees, you check off which party's ballot you want, and vote on it. At the polling place, you request a ballot for the party you want to vote for. It's essentially an open primary these days, I can't really imagine the board of elections pursuing prosecution for someone signing a "bad" statement of allegiance to a party in the primary.. they're horribly understaffed already, it's quite likely no one would notice.

As for swapping parties for primaries to try to "fix" the general election.. it's kind of a gray area. I personally feel it's dishonest to vote for anyone but the individual you'd like to see win the general election, but I can understand the motivation to make it EASIER for that person to win the general election by thwarting the efforts of the opposing party. It bothers me that the US operates on a two-party system, though, and if it weren't for that system.. things like this probably wouldn't happen to the extent at which they seem to be happening this year.

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loquitur

eh...... it's a free country. I don't approve of this gaming the system, but my disapproval isn't all that persuasive.

MuadDib

My only argument for the practice is to keep in mind that it is only a primary. If the parties don't want to they don't even have to listen to primary results at all. More realistically they could refuse to seat delegates from states that allow for open primaries or some other such thing.

The primaries have taken on a life of their own over the last few decades and becoming more and more integral to the democratic process. This is unfortunate because it is something that wasn't envisioned by the founders of either the nation or the party. This leaves us where we are today, trying to play catch up as the problems emerge.

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roachboy

my my limbaugh sure is concerned that he remain relevant to someone, ain't he?

the old gasbag has been loosing audience for a long time--now with this, he's suddenly back in the infotainment stream. and for advocating a pointless action that functions mostly to enable the few remaining dittoheads the pleasure of embracing once more the limbaugh philosophy of "be a dick and don't apologize for it"--i hope they enjoy themselves.

i look forward to the total pulverization of the republican party in november thanks to george w bush. i'll try *real* hard to remember this for a laugh.

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samcol

I just find it amazing that these right wing radio nuts decided to back Hillary. However, they couldn't get behind a real conservative like Paul, Hunter, or Thompson. Where was their activism when the party was begging for a leader? Instead we get McCain. I think a large amount of the blame falls on their shoulder's considering their listeners hang on every word for some reason.

Pathetic.

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Ustwo

Why would a right wing republican talker support Paul? I liked a lot of things Paul would want to do but he would be the libertarian candidate not the republican one based on platform.

I don't think any right wing talkers actively supported McCain and I know Limbaugh has always been anti-McCain. I think most supported Romney.

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Rekna

I think switching parties to mess with the other party should be considered election fraud and should be a federal crime. Of course it would be nearly unenforceable as you would have to prove intent. However, the law on the books would stop many from doing it. On top of that, encouraging/organizing others to do this should be a very big federal crime which would be much easier to prove.

Democracy is about voting for who you think would be the best candidate. It should not be a game in which we try to find creative ways to skirt voters intentions in order to win.

loquitur

Rekna, you may be right conceptually, but I shudder to think at what sort of thought police we would need to have in order to enforce the law you are proposing.

dc_dux

Its a silly feel good exercise in futility that as roachboy noted, is Rush's attempt to be relevent this go-round as Karl Rove's dream of a permanent Republican majority fades away.

With proportional voting in Dem primaries, it has had little or no impact.

I'd be far more concerned about illegal Republican election tactics like voter caging.

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powerclown

Dunno, it could backfire and take Hilary to the nomination, where I think she has a better chance against Mccain than Obama does. You know she (and Bill) has had the heavy guns hidden thus far, and Obama may be too nice a guy to prevail in a knifefight with McCain.

dc_dux

With proportional voting, there is no plausible scenario where it can backfire in the remaining primary states.

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Ustwo

You may be right, though I think up until recently the republicans have been focused on Hilary, and 'Stop Hilary' as a theme. I think thats the fight they are ready for, even if its harder on paper.

I don't think Obama will fail because of being a 'nice guy' he seems to be a classic politician to me, and if being nice works, be nice, if being mean works, be mean just make sure you have plausible deniability you authorized the meanness. For example I'd be surprised if every democrat talker doesn't bring up McCains age incessantly, even if Obama doesn't do it himself.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

ASU2003

This is just one problem you have with our current, drawn-out primary system.

In 2000, I voted for McCain in Michigan. Not because I would have voted for Gore in the Fall, but would have voted for McCain over Gore, but Gore over Bush. We don't have rank-based voting here, but not that it would have fixed this problem. TO solve this problem, you would almost have to have one party go first through all the states, and then have the second party go through it all, but you could only pick one contest to vote in.

But, when maybe 50 million Americans (1 in 5 who are eligible to vote) care to show up to vote in one of the most hyped elections ever, the whole election process is broken.

Why would people be concerned with his age? Our VP right now isn't a shining example of health. And I would love to see the file the Secret Service has on threats to the Pres. I could imagine his health is threated every day.

If McCain has enough energy to run a campaign (and even go to Iraq), he has what it takes to be the Pres.

dc_dux

Yeah....McCain didnt sound like a doddering old fool when he stood in the heavily fortified Green Zone and proclaimed the surge is working.....as mortar bombs rained down on the Green Zone several hours later....or when Lieberman had to remind him that Iran is not funneling arms to al Queda in Iraq.

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"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
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Ustwo

You must not recall the 1984 election adds about Ronald Reagan's age.

The democrats ran an add which implied if global nuclear war was starting there wouldn't be time to wake a sleeping president (after all age makes you sleep more, don't ya know). Well they didn't imply it, they stated it.

Trust me if Obama get lagging in some polls, this will be front and center.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

samcol

Well Paul endorsement is a stretch from those guys I agree. Also, I'm not saying they supported McCain at all, what I'm saying is they didn't make any attempt to get the base behind one or two guys when it looked like it was going to a brokered convention.

They finally did support Romney, but it was way to late. I find it sad that they are now leading a pro-Hillary campaign. Where was this activism when we needed it.

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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

dc_dux

What will be front and center is McCain's flip flops on abortion, campaign reform, torture, social security privatization, immigration, etc.......to pander to the republican base.

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"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Ustwo

The republicans lack leadership right now, there was really no one to get excited about, and a lot of people were in the 'Well a moderate like McCain has the best chance' mode.

I'm not sure this Operation Chaos really has a goal other than being a bit of a fun thing to do. Years ago I used to listen to Rush quite a bit, and most of what he got peoples panties in a bunch in sound bytes was tongue in cheek stuff or outright jokes you wouldn't get if you didn't listen to the show. I haven't really listened to Rush in the last 5 years or so, but I doubt thats changed much.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Rekna

Thats why I said it would be unenforceable and they wouldn't try to enforce it on individuals. The main purpose would be to stop concentrated efforts by individuals (Limbaugh, Markos, etc) to mess with the primaries. Those cases would be much easier to prove and would be the ones that the government would enforce. Unfortunately in most cases this would be a federal matter and in the last 8 years we have seen how we cannot trust the feds to fairly enforce the law against both sides of the isle.

Jinn

I disapprove, but mostly because I fucking hate Rush Limbaugh.

I'd love to say that I disapprove universally, but I know I wouldn't be upset if there was a "liberal" doing it to the republican candidates before McCain grabbed it.

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Ustwo

The liberals did just that with McCain in 2000, its what Rush is using as a precedent.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

dc_dux

Actually, I think the precedent was the Republicans in the '80 Democratic primaries.....crossing over to vote for Carter over Ted Kennedy.

As much as they loved raising the`Chappaquiddick flag, they feared Kennedy as an opponent for Reagan far more than they feared the weak incumbent Carter.

But we cant blame Rush for that.

BTW, the 1980s was the same time the Republicans signed a consent decree to stop using voter caging to suppress minority voters (if you dont know about voter caging, this video explains it):
Yet that hasnt stopped them from using this tactic in 2000 and 2004. Its not unreasonable to expect the Republicans to try it again in 2008. The national RNC just acts in the background to remove itself from direct accountability.

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"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

roachboy

what's particularly hilarious in this "operation"--beyond the other funny elements--is the way in which this idea brings rush into lyndon larouche territory--the trotskyists of the 1930s used a similar tactic, which they called "submarining"....and we all know what a wonderful fellow larouche is.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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host

Heh....heh....you're just jealous:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndon_...and_Trotskyism

.....better get crackin', if you hope to ever equal, much less eclipse this man's "accomplishments" ! What a busy beaver, that larouche.....

(I wouldn't put it past larouche and his followers to have been the principle authors of his wiki bio.... getta load of the footnotes...I've never seen so many, even in the 9/11 commission report....)

For my on "topic" contribution:

Ustwo

Yes, thank you democrat operative, I value your spin on these issues

Lets go suppress that vote again!

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

dc_dux

Hey....at least you admit to reading my post. Thats the first step to recovery!

Now if you can only learn to accept the facts when presented to you.

Lets be clear...this didnt start in 2000. By nearly all accounts, this idea of cross-over voting to attempt to influence the other party's candidate selection process started in 1980. Rush just conveniently forgot to point that fact out to his minions.

In any case, what some Democrats did on their own in 2000 was an even greater exercise in futility than the current Rush-promoted Republican operation because of the nature of the two parties' primaries....Dems are proportional, which means even a few votes can possibly change a few convention delegates.....Repubs are winner take all (either by district or statewide) and cross over voting has far less of a potential impact.

And unlike Rush, I dont create my own facts....on the separate issue of voter caging, the court consent decree that the Republicans signed in the 80s was real as were the acts by the party in 2000.

Oh well....one step at a time.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire