ShaniFaye

(I would really like this to NOT turn into a "party bashing" thread...I am asking a serious question that I would think could apply no matter which party you affiliate yourself with)

**edit I need to clarify I am talking about the presidential election specifically...this does not mean I wouldnt turn out to vote for other issues on the ballot

Yesterday a co-worker and I were talking....we happen to belong to the same "party" and I was explaining how I really honestly did not know if I was going to be able to vote this election because there was only one person I thought I could vote for and I doubted they would get the nomination...he very vehemently told me that I needed to vote no matter who it was that was on the ballot so that our "party" got the vote.

I'm wondering if thats true? Am I really supposed to put aside my disagreement with a candidates actions/past actions and their stance on things just to "vote"?

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

jewels

All politics aside, you should vote no matter what the circumstances.

We each have the right and, IMO, the duty to be counted, since those we elect are supposed to be representative but the system doesn't work unless we all do it.

Those who don't vote because their vote might have a particular negative effect are why we often find representatives we don't want in office.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

ShaniFaye

So, in your opinion....I should put my convictions aside to vote for "someone" no matter how much I disagree with what they stand for, or that I wouldnt piss on if they were one fire (I know, bad analogy from a girl lol) just for the sake of a "vote"?

If thats the case then why should the candidates even bother with a platform? Why not just say...Ok Im with the Dem party, Rep party, Lib party vote for me just because of that

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Cynthetiq

I'm of the opinion that you vote your conscience. This may mean that you don't vote for either candidate, or the lesser of two evils, but even a write in. A write in to express that you don't even like the two candidates, but you are still expressing your thoughts and excercising your right to vote.

This may not apply as much in the primary, but in the actual election day.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

ShaniFaye

I thought about that.....I've never done a "write in"....can you do that and still be "seen" as voting for your particular party?

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Cynthetiq

what do you mean "seen"?

Do you mean if you can tell people that you voted party lines? or how you voted in the election?

You don't have to tell anyone how you really voted, that's the point fo the secret ballot. You are allowed to vote your conscience without repercussion from pastor, family, friends, spouse, boss, party affilliation.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

ShaniFaye

hmmm how did I mean that.

I meant like my coworker said....it is still counted as a vote for my party, since he seems to think thats the important thing, not WHO you voted for

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Cynthetiq

So then that means voting party lines, voting down the democrat or republican line no matter who or what platform.

Not the way that I vote.

But again, you can tell people whatever you want to tell them. It's not any of their business nor can they even tell.

it is still counted that you voted.

I don't care to vote party lines, that's how some people vote because they don't know or don't understand the individual candidates or don't care but for the "party".

Sometimes I may vote that way for an individual candidate that I'm unsure of. In the most recent election here a candidate for a Judge was listed on all three lines, Republican, Democrat, Independent. So which "party" was he? I don't know didn't have time to find out enough about him, so I didn't vote for him.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

The_Jazz

Shani, I'm going to throw you a curve ball, so get ready.

It is exceedingly rare that elections have just one single ballot. There are usually a bunch of other things included because it's the easiest way to have referendums passed, vacated seats filled etc. While it's possible that your local primary doesn't have anything else on the ballot, it's rare. It's never happened to me, but I've always voted in larger cities.

Assuming for a second that your primary is a single issue vote, there are other reasons to turn out. Not all states are winner-take all for delegates, and a large contigent of second or third place candidate delegates can often influence party lines. There's also the issue that a higher turnout and result for your guy could aid him in getting his message out since the debates and federal funds are directly tied to results.

Is that enough reason for you?

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

ShaniFaye

well...Jazz...I didnt mean about more local things....I always vote on those, I mean actually casting the vote for president while Im there. (did I read what you meant correctly?)

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

abaya

The way I see it, Shani, is that I'm not really voting FOR anyone, because I never really like any of the candidates that much, anyway. But I do believe that I have a responsibility to vote, as a citizen, and I take that seriously.

So the way I see it, I am voting AGAINST someone else. For me personally, in the previous two elections, I was voting AGAINST someone... for the lesser of two very evil evils (as Cyn said above). Maybe it will help you to think of it that way... who do you want to vote against?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

ShaniFaye

So...Im not supposed to look at it as supporting the person....Im supposed to look at it as supporting my party? It basically harks back to my earlier statement....it doesnt matter whether or not the party candidate makes me sick and I dont want them in office or in anyway able to be in a position of power....I want their party heading the nation over the other party?

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

The_Jazz

Shani, I thought that you weren't going to show up at the polls at all. If that's not the case and you're just choosing not to cast a vote for President but would for, say, dog catcher, then it seems to me that you are making a political statement with that. I don't see where you'd have to apologize to anyone but the most rabid party-liner for that kind of thing. You would, after all, vote in other races, just not the Presidential primary.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

ShaniFaye

yes, sorry if I confused you....I should have specified I meant the presidential election...I will go fix that so no one else gets confused

My question wasnt a question of "explaining myself" it was more....Why should I vote for evil incarnate just so that my vote was cast for my "party"

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

The_Jazz

That's easy - you don't have to vote in that particular contest. Vote in the others that don't stink as bad.

If you can't find a candidate to support, you're not doing your party any disservice by chosing not to vote for evil incarnate.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

jewels

Maybe I misunderstood?

I thought you were saying you would vote but didn't think it would help. I would never condone voting solely for a particular party.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

ShaniFaye

No, I was asking strictly about voting for the sake of my party getting a vote

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

ratbastid

I'd say, if "your" party nominates a dog of a candidate, then you do "your" party more favors by communicating your dissatisfaction by abstaining.

But this whole notion of "support your party over your convictions" frankly is the worst facet of politics, and has echoes of Soviet politics to it. The fact is, I've always voted for a particular party (guess which one! ), but I'm registered Independent, and if an independent or third party candidate (or, I suppose, a candidate of the "other" party) came along I could get enthusiastically behind, they'd have my vote.

The_Jazz

Now if the party in question isn't the Republican or Democratic party, then there is actually some truth to what your coworker is telling you. Federal funds for third parties (Greens, Libertarians, etc.) is based on turnout. If they capture something like 5% (DC_Dux do you know the actual number) of a national election, then they are eligible for federal matching funds in the next cycle.

I'm pretty sure that's not the case here, but it's worth mentioning.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

ShaniFaye

no its not a 3rd party Jazz, but thank you for the information on that, I didnt know that bit

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Ustwo

Its a good question and I'm not sure of an answer.

If you follow the lessor of two evils philosophy then you should vote. Odds are that your desires will be better filled by someone in your party than someone outside under most circumstances. The primary system means moderates mostly get trashed these days so the odds of the other party nominating someone who can live with is very low.

If you think your party has no chance in an election, then I'd vote, even if I wasn't happy with the other guy. Politicians get wacky when they think they have a 'mandate' and view it as a reason to go nuts on their pet projects. If its close some may keep the wacky factor down because they are thinking about reelection.

Now if you think everyone just sucks equally, there is no reason to vote.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

abaya

I vote against individuals, not parties... I am not registered for any party, I just see who comes up and vote for the ones who are less evil, regardless of party. Incidentally, most of the time the less-evil ones happen to be from one party, but that doesn't mean I will "register" myself under that party. I guess I don't really see the point of registering as a party member... ?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Jinn

Shani, your coworker is an idiot. You don't vote for a party just so your party "wins" over the party. You vote for the candidate who best represents you.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Ustwo

No, thats what you vote for, not everyone. The problem with party politics is that by voting for an individual you are in fact voting for that party in pretty much everything.

Its quite possible, though getting rarer, that you may well like an individual and still its in your best interest politically to vote against them since you don't like their party.

Imagine if you have one good senate candidate and a poor one. The poor one is from the party you most identify with. If you vote for that good one because you like them, and that means that the senate is now in the other parties hands, you have in fact voted to make that parties policy dominant, even if the guy you voted for was moderate.

The reality is that party politics trump everything currently.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Baraka_Guru

Voting isn't the only essential function of a member of a democracy. There are those who vote and do nothing else. This simply encourages a process of choosing your masters. If people were more engaged in politics, our idea of power would be quite different.

Voting might have a far feebler impact than you think.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

i dont know how important it is to vote in itself.
i really dont.
i think this is an area where each person ends up having to weigh a variety of factors, many of which have already been outlined above.
i dont think the american system is really democratic--but this may or may not have a bearing on how i act within it.
i dont find candidates who speak anything like my views, so generally vote against rather than for.
this is a crappy position to be in, really.
does that mean you should or should not vote?
i dont know.

see, i dont think there's a principled answer to this.
maybe because if i find myself voting against rather than for, election participation in the context of the american oligarchy is as much therapeutic (wanting to feel like i've "done my bit") as a matter of anything approaching principle (except in the reasons behind voting against)...so i'm not even sure that my disposition toward the election process is transposable to anyone else.

basically, i think you have to just make a decision.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Willravel

If you don't vote, do it out of protest and be loud about it. Otherwise, just pick the person you think would do the job best. Considering how close the previous two US elections were, I can't understand people thinking their vote wouldn't count. Bush only lost by a few thousand votes in 2000 and the same is true of 2004.

flstf

No, I think a "none of the above" message by not voting most accurately reflects your position. I'm sure your party would prefer that you vote for their chosen candidate and would benefit from your vote but do you really want to reward them for nominating someone you disagree with? They would not know you are not satisfied if you vote for them anyway.

SecretMethod70

There's a reason voting is not mandatory in America, and a reason that we now have secret ballots.

Vote, or don't vote, based on what you believe, not what someone else tells you you should believe or out of any sense of loyalty. If you can't support anyone in the election, don't vote for them. There's absolutely nothing wrong with not voting when you don't agree with any of the options.

If there's a candidate currently in the primaries that you can support (you say there's one candidate you can support but you don't think they'll get the nomination), be sure to vote in your primary to support him or her. Your vote in the primary has a lot of power, because not many people vote in primaries. Whether that candidate wins or not, you're still one more person who stood up and showed support.

Most importantly, don't let other people bully you into putting your name behind something that you disagree with. The only duty you have is to your own convictions.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

dc_dux

Shani....its not clear if you are just not inspired by the major parties candidates for President or if you are thinking of not going to the polls at all.

If you dont like the major parties, find a third party that interests you......the Natural Law Party? (espouse a holistic approach to govt)

But remember, the November election is not just about electing a President. You have a vote for your member of the House (and 1/3 states for Senate) as well as state and local offices in many states.

And often, there are local bond and tax issues in many states and other ballot initiatives in some states...these issues might have the greatest short term impact on you (and your pocketbook) so keep that in mind when deciding whether to vote or not.

ooops...I just reread your post so you answered my question

The reality is that the Independent voters trump everything. There are more voters who do not affiliate with either major party than ever.

Today, voter registration is about 40% Dem, 35% Repub and 25% Independent. The way Independents swing..left or right....so goes the Presidency.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ShaniFaye

I thought the 2nd line of the OP stated that I was only talking about the presidential vote

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

pig

shani: my take on this is that you have to think about what else you're voting for, or potentially might be voting for, aside from the actual candidate. let's say that some like huckabee appeals to you, but you think that mitt or mccain is going to win the nomination, and you can't support either.

fast forward.

mccain gets the nomination, and you can't really support mccain. now, do you vote republican or not?

i think that's a personality decision, to some extent, and a question of your level of engagement in party politics. i don't think your party affiliation is that strong, or you wouldn't be asking the question. so you would have to ask yourself, i think...what else would i be voting for, by voting for this candidate. who are this person's handlers, and what will this mean in terms of supreme court justice nominations, earmark funding, national resonance with that party being in "power" ?

maybe nothing, if you agree with roach and think that it's all more or less rigged to keep the powers that be in power. but you might ask yourself if the party's policies, in general, more accurately represent you.

either way, i wouldn't vote for or against because of fear of alienating yourself from a party base, or from simple groupthink appeals...which i think your co-worker's position seems to suggest...but because you think it's more important for a particular party have more control of the system.

if you don't feel that way, and that not much is gained by voting for a particular party, i would personally vote the strongest 3rd party candidate. not because i would support 100%, or even 50%, of their platform. i would vote strong 3rd party for the reasons jazz alluded to above. i would like for american politics to be opened up to more viewpoints in the debates, if you want to call them debates instead of soundbite trading competitions, and i'd love to see the major party candidates have to wrestle with positions that point to the fundamental seat of political and social power in the united states.

i don't know if that's an informed position, or if it's of any use. basically, in the end, vote (or don't vote) based on what you feel comfortable with.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

Elphaba

Shani, I would like to second SM70's remark. I always vote but my reason for voting can change with every election. 2000 was "stick man" and the "chimp", neither a good choice imo, so I voted FOR the Supreme Court. 2004 was a completely different motivation. I was voting for anyone BUT. I'm sure you're impressed with my voting batting average.

Examine what political values are most important to you and try to match them with a candidate, if possible. Stand firm for your choice during the primaries for the reasons Jazz gave. The general election is the best place to show your disatisfaction with the candidates. Writein the candidate of your choice, rather than opting out. A missing vote doesn't say anything about your intention. A writein says a great deal.

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

belezabaub

I'm quite interested by some of the replys to this question, particularly jewels443 reply. From an outsider looking in to American politics (Northern Ireland), I would have assumed that there is much more debate than there has been, to whether voting is relevant. To me it seems the general consensus, bar a few, that voting is highly relevant.
I want to pick up on the word duty that jewels has put in bold, surely in a 'liberal democracy' your are free to either vote or not to vote. I'm not entirely sure of the make-up of the US political system but from what I've gathered from my rudimentary introduction through the media from home is that to use the term 'representive' to describe the US system would be quite false. How can 2 parties represent the needs of millions and millions of people?
I appreciate your position and think it is very worthy, but in truth, democracy in this day and age is a complete fallacy. I can't speak with with complete accuracy in terms of the American political system but I can illustrate it through the British model.
The British model exists on the principle of first past the post, in that party that wins the most seats leader, is asked to form a cabinet, the executive. He will normally, but not neccessarily, pick members of his own party to form cabinet. The role of the rest of the MPs (legislative) is to scrutinize the executive's policys and decisions and to vote on whether they are passed. The seats are won on the basis that in an constituency the person with the most votes wins a seat. Correct me if I'm wrong but is that not similar to the US system?
Anyhow, the way I see it, 10% in the country could have voted for the 'Have a bath on Tuesday party', however the party may not have a single seat in either the executive or even the the legislative because it didn't have a overall majority in a single constituency. How are the 10%, who have voted for the 'Have a Bath on Tuesday party' represented?
Quite simply they are not. From an outsider looking into American politics (its getting very similar in the UK too), it seems you have a choice between eggs and bacon or eggs and saugage and you are fucked if you don't want eggs at all. I think if people should really think before they vote. I think it was said before in this thread the executive draws its power from its mandate. Low turnout would significantly call into question the legitamacy of thier power. What's that famous JFK saying 'ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country' should be greeted with a response of 'what the fuck has my country done for me lately'.

Apologies I don't know how to quote other people's threads. I also apologize if my knowledge of the American political system isn't what it should be but I'd like to think my response makes sense as I have described it in terms of the British model.

bmadison

The problem with voting for President is that it only matters in a few states. With the Electoral College, you're vote doesn't matter in most states. For example, I live in California. I WAS a Bush supporter and voted for him twice; however, California's Electoral College votes all went to Gore and Kerry, respectively. So, in essence, I didn't ever vote for Bush (Which makes me feel better about myself and my past character decisions). Georgia is historically a Red State, thus, no matter who you vote for, you will be voting Republican. In many states, the politicians who makeup the EC do not even have to vote with the popular vote, which would effectively make all votes in that state worthless.

I would say that if Georgia is a state that the EC has to vote on the popular vote, or they decide to do away with the EC system, you should vote for the candidate you believe in. On the flip side, if it always has been a Red State (or a Blue State) and always will be one regardless of the popular vote, it really doesn't matter. In that case, stick to voting on referendums and city and state government officials, because that is the only way you can change the color of most states.

SecretMethod70

The idea that your vote is less important because of the Electoral College is just plain false. Quite simply, your vote is more likely to determine the outcome of a state election (Electoral College) than it is to determine the outcome of a national election (popular vote). It's better for your vote to be one of 30 million than one of 300 million. Yes, sometimes that may work to your disadvantage (2000), but that is a very rare occurrance.

That's not to say the United States election system isn't without problems, but the Electoral College is the undeserving scapegoat of those problems. If you want to talk about what really needs to be changed, it's how we count votes. When it comes to producing the candidate that the most people can feel decent about, the plurality system we use is one of the worst. We need to count votes using a method which complies with the Condorcet criterion, and this would only make voting marginally more complicated for the average American. Instead of voting on one person, all they'd have to do is rank candidates. It's the way we count votes that is at the core of unpleasant election results, not the Electoral College.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

noodle

Shani, I frequently have the same thoughts.
But, I live in Florida and my voting precinct was one of the ones they "forgot" to count, so I think I'm jaded.
Not having any advice for you, but I'm glad to know that there is someone else out there that questions it in a vocal manner.

__________________

Plan9

Democracy works when citizens take an active interest in government by participating in the ways that have been laid out.

Democracy fails when people sit on their asses and do nothing.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

SecretMethod70

I agree 100%, but there is a big difference between making an educated decision to abstain from voting and sitting on your ass and doing nothing.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Baraka_Guru

Yes, I believe they call it a "soft dictatorship," or an oligarchy.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot