European Union: How do you feel about it? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Nad Adam · 04-21-2003, 05:28 AM

Inspired by the Europeans thread here I'd like to know how you feel about the european union and EMU. Please state if you live inside EU or not.

I was against it up until one or two years ago. I had the idea that all we needed was free trade and open borders. My opinion changed as the rest of the world changed. What speaks against this today is mostly language barriers, nationalism and of course the corruption that naturaly occurs when politicians moves further from those who elect them. These are problems that can be overcome with a common political, military and economic base.

I'll rant more once the discussion starts as I don't want to push it in a specific direction.

EDIT: I live in Sweden which is a part of EU but not of EMU.

Meistermannen · 04-21-2003, 05:36 AM

Well, being a fellow swede, I tend to agree with Nad here. I'm fairly for it, with the exception of the agricultural politics which really, REALLY don't work.

Macheath · 04-21-2003, 05:42 AM

From here downunder the EU looks pretty good, and you have no idea how shitty it is that our scumbag Prime Minister has pissed on formerly friendly relations with every single one of our asian neighbours.

I really hope you guys can save the Italians from that mad fucker Burlusconi - he's giving Murdoch ideas.

Nad Adam · 04-21-2003, 05:48 AM

Meistermannen
Yeah, the agricultural politics is a bloody mess but the will have to take care of that now that Polands about to join, Poland is one big farm. I belive the should cut the economical support to the farmers completly and let people pay what the products cost directly and not through the taxes. People will always need food, right?

Dragonlich · 04-21-2003, 06:15 AM

I'm from the Netherlands, one of the founders of the European Union... I'm all for it, as long as it's democratic and accountable. At the moment it's too big and bloated, and there are too many decisions that aren't as democratic as I'd want them to be.

I want an EU army, a common foreign policy, and a federal Europe. I also want the French and Germans to stop trying to rule the rest of us.

Meistermannen · 04-21-2003, 06:36 AM

Nad
Sure, we all need to eat, but that's not the problem, as I'm sure you agree. The problem is that the EU support a massive over-production wich we later export (at a high price) to african nations, because they're producing crops that we need... It's all a confusing mess... I blame the french (as usuall).

Nad Adam · 04-21-2003, 06:45 AM

Meistermannen
I think we agree here. What I'm trying to say is: Stop the goverment subsidys to the farmer and the farmer will produce what the people will buy, no more and definently no less.

It's been done in NZ and the farmers that lived on the subsidy made a lot of noise and either went broke or changed their production.

Nad Adam · 04-21-2003, 06:45 AM

PS I also blame the french...

Meistermannen · 04-21-2003, 09:15 AM

Aaahh...isn't it lovely when you agree

The_Dude · 04-21-2003, 01:31 PM

i love the EU!

i think it's teh greatest thing that ever happened and it's the first step to take toward a unified world.

it's free trade, free movement !!

i just wish the EU structures would get a little less complicated and the EU central govt would get a lil more power.

Jlindone · 04-21-2003, 06:41 PM

Besides some restrictions on free trade with the US (the US does the same thing with Steel Tarrifs, but regardless), it is the single most incredible unifying political and economic body.

With over 600 Million People represented in one fashion or another, it is the largest, most successful democratic body. As a US citizen I feel we should avoid isolationism, and bolster ties with a potentialy massive ally. One European nation may not match our economic output, but all of them together exceed ours, the US simply cannot afford to ignore the possibilities. As for Agricultural, and Environmental restrictions I'm certain that originially forward thinking leaders were forced to create broad, yet severe limits, which as far as a I know, work fairly well. In the US where we are obsessed with Farm Subsidies (which I'm for because I have serious issues), because we loose a large percentage of farmers each year, there is good reason for them. As for Europe, which seems to have to have other goals in mind, I can't seem to take a position good, bad, or otherwise. Europeans, educate the ingorant American... Bet you love hearing that

.

Unified Europe is the answer, and damn your Euro, when I visit my pathetic Dollar will be useless

, ah well, the US can't follow dollar appreciation policies for all eternity.

Nad Adam · 04-22-2003, 11:39 AM

I'm surprised there's no negative replies from europeans since there are a broad front against EU among the citizens of EU countries.

As for the US losing farmers, shouldn't that be healthy. If there's a need for agricultural products farmers will meet the demands. Or have the US lost its belif in market economy?

Jlindone · 04-22-2003, 07:40 PM

The problem is as we loose farmers, only slightly (I mean a hundreth of a penny) cheaper fruits and vegatables suddenly flood the market from South America, and at the same time, those fruits are offered at much greater prices to Africa.

Loss of American agriculture will mean an overcommercialization of unused land. Think about it, you may have driven for a while away from a large city, can you imagine getting rid of all that open space?

bundy · 04-24-2003, 10:53 PM

i think that the EU is incredible.
the free trade and movement is amazing.
like Macheath said, its pretty impossible for Australia to join anything even remotely similar in SEAsia now that Howard has once again isolated Australia from the region.

harry · 04-25-2003, 12:17 AM

Im from Austria - we are part of both the EU and the EURO-zone. The general feeling round here is that it was a good thing to join the Union, mainly because of economical reasons.

There has been some scepticism through the years concerning where the Union is heading politically and most people shared the fear of a sprawling bureaucratic central government sitting in Brussels telling us what size our beer bottles had to be.

Right now its a different picture, because people are more angry about Washington than Brussels and many now think there should be a common foreign-policy and even a strong joint army to counter American domination and make them listen to the European view of things.

Personally I dont think we are going to have some sort of "United States of Europe" though, not in our lifetimes anyway. There are too many national interests and viewpoints as the discussions about the war in Iraq have shown. Secondly the smaller memberstates have already stated they will block anything, that shifts power to the bigger nations and brussels.

Anyway i dont think it would be a good idea to start some kind of rivalry between the EU and the US. Who knows where it might lead us and certainly world-economy would suffer.

I guess the best thing to do would be for the Americans to kick George W. and his henchmen out of the White house as soon as possible and everything will go right back to normal, ok folks?

Nad Adam · 04-25-2003, 12:46 AM

Yeah, there has been some stupid regulations about beer-size and cucumberangles but I think that's mostly something the "no to eu"-crowd has blown out of proportion to build anti-eu opinion. Anyway the beurocracy needs to be limited.

A joint army is a thing for the union. If we had one army under a joint command that would greatly help us in getting our foreign politics togheter.

bartman · 04-25-2003, 01:44 AM

two points:

1- How can we have a joint euro army, when half the eu is against the war in iraq? If NATO aint broke then dont fix it!

2- The EURO could work, but some regions will suffer. When a country is free to set its own interest rates, it can ease the burden of an economic slow down, and stop the economy overheating at other times. In the EURO when Germany is in recesion, and Ireland is booming niether has the correct interest rate, and this causes big problems.

Nad Adam · 04-25-2003, 03:01 AM

If we had a joint army then we would only take military action when a majority was for it. If a country was to take it's own army to military action and eu staying home that would send a strong message to this country and the world.

As for the intrest rates, this problem exists on a smaller scale in countries today. Countries can still stimulate the growth with their taxes but that takes some more planning.

Daval · 04-25-2003, 06:37 AM

I am for the EU. I lived in Europe for a number of years so I feel qualified to offer my opinion. I think it is good for the poorer countries and will help them catch up to the rest of europe by opening up the markets.

Nad Adam · 04-25-2003, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Daval
I am for the EU. I lived in Europe for a number of years so I feel qualified to offer my opinion. I think it is good for the poorer countries and will help them catch up to the rest of europe by opening up the markets.

Daval, where did you live?

Liquor Dealer · 04-25-2003, 09:10 AM

I believe that the EU could work but it is going to take a long time for many people to actually have any faith in it (Oh - I forgot - I do not live in the EU). The recent actions taken by France when it attempted to strong arm the smaller countries in Eastern Europe are probably the biggest obstacle that will have to be overcome. Perhaps I do not even understand what it is supposed to accomplish but, that said, it really makes sense that the many political entities that make up Europe would be better off if they were truly united. The major question facing these nations is what is it going to cost, not in money, but in power. Many of the European nations are arrogant to the point of being totally obnoxious, and this is not in reference to recent current events - they were totally obnoxious long before that. These nations, in my opinion, will never be willing to give a single inch. They are going to be in charge or it simply isn't going to happen. Conclusion - it probably won't happen.

Let's pose another question along these lines - How about a United America? Could that happen? I, at one time, thought this to be a possibility, Hell, Mexico might as well be united with someone else - all of their population is here already. Then, Canada, which not to long ago seemed to be almost indistinguishable from the US, reminded us that they are most definitely a foreign country. I think the same thing will appear in the EU. It will take decades to unite people and only seconds to separate them.

04-21-2003, 05:28 AM	#1 (permalink)
Nad Adam Psycho Location: Sweden	European Union: How do you feel about it? Inspired by the Europeans thread here I'd like to know how you feel about the european union and EMU. Please state if you live inside EU or not. I was against it up until one or two years ago. I had the idea that all we needed was free trade and open borders. My opinion changed as the rest of the world changed. What speaks against this today is mostly language barriers, nationalism and of course the corruption that naturaly occurs when politicians moves further from those who elect them. These are problems that can be overcome with a common political, military and economic base. I'll rant more once the discussion starts as I don't want to push it in a specific direction. EDIT: I live in Sweden which is a part of EU but not of EMU.

04-21-2003, 05:36 AM	#2 (permalink)
Meistermannen Addict Location: Straight in the middle of nowhere	Well, being a fellow swede, I tend to agree with Nad here. I'm fairly for it, with the exception of the agricultural politics which really, REALLY don't work. __________________ Doin it right or ain't doin it at all.

04-21-2003, 05:48 AM	#4 (permalink)
Nad Adam Psycho Location: Sweden	Meistermannen Yeah, the agricultural politics is a bloody mess but the will have to take care of that now that Polands about to join, Poland is one big farm. I belive the should cut the economical support to the farmers completly and let people pay what the products cost directly and not through the taxes. People will always need food, right? __________________ Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. - Psalms 137:9

04-21-2003, 06:36 AM	#6 (permalink)
Meistermannen Addict Location: Straight in the middle of nowhere	Nad Sure, we all need to eat, but that's not the problem, as I'm sure you agree. The problem is that the EU support a massive over-production wich we later export (at a high price) to african nations, because they're producing crops that we need... It's all a confusing mess... I blame the french (as usuall). __________________ Doin it right or ain't doin it at all.

04-21-2003, 06:45 AM	#7 (permalink)
Nad Adam Psycho Location: Sweden	Meistermannen I think we agree here. What I'm trying to say is: Stop the goverment subsidys to the farmer and the farmer will produce what the people will buy, no more and definently no less. It's been done in NZ and the farmers that lived on the subsidy made a lot of noise and either went broke or changed their production. __________________ Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. - Psalms 137:9

04-21-2003, 05:42 AM	#3 (permalink)
Macheath Junkie Location: Sydney, Australia	From here downunder the EU looks pretty good, and you have no idea how shitty it is that our scumbag Prime Minister has pissed on formerly friendly relations with every single one of our asian neighbours. I really hope you guys can save the Italians from that mad fucker Burlusconi - he's giving Murdoch ideas.

04-21-2003, 06:15 AM	#5 (permalink)
Dragonlich 42, baby! Location: The Netherlands	I'm from the Netherlands, one of the founders of the European Union... I'm all for it, as long as it's democratic and accountable. At the moment it's too big and bloated, and there are too many decisions that aren't as democratic as I'd want them to be. I want an EU army, a common foreign policy, and a federal Europe. I also want the French and Germans to stop trying to rule the rest of us.

04-21-2003, 06:45 AM	#8 (permalink)
Nad Adam Psycho Location: Sweden	PS I also blame the french... __________________ Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. - Psalms 137:9

04-21-2003, 09:15 AM	#9 (permalink)
Meistermannen Addict Location: Straight in the middle of nowhere	Aaahh...isn't it lovely when you agree __________________ Doin it right or ain't doin it at all.

04-21-2003, 01:31 PM	#10 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	i love the EU! i think it's teh greatest thing that ever happened and it's the first step to take toward a unified world. it's free trade, free movement !! i just wish the EU structures would get a little less complicated and the EU central govt would get a lil more power. __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

04-21-2003, 06:41 PM	#11 (permalink)
Jlindone Upright	Besides some restrictions on free trade with the US (the US does the same thing with Steel Tarrifs, but regardless), it is the single most incredible unifying political and economic body. With over 600 Million People represented in one fashion or another, it is the largest, most successful democratic body. As a US citizen I feel we should avoid isolationism, and bolster ties with a potentialy massive ally. One European nation may not match our economic output, but all of them together exceed ours, the US simply cannot afford to ignore the possibilities. As for Agricultural, and Environmental restrictions I'm certain that originially forward thinking leaders were forced to create broad, yet severe limits, which as far as a I know, work fairly well. In the US where we are obsessed with Farm Subsidies (which I'm for because I have serious issues), because we loose a large percentage of farmers each year, there is good reason for them. As for Europe, which seems to have to have other goals in mind, I can't seem to take a position good, bad, or otherwise. Europeans, educate the ingorant American... Bet you love hearing that . Unified Europe is the answer, and damn your Euro, when I visit my pathetic Dollar will be useless , ah well, the US can't follow dollar appreciation policies for all eternity. Last edited by Jlindone; 04-21-2003 at 06:59 PM..

04-22-2003, 11:39 AM	#12 (permalink)
Nad Adam Psycho Location: Sweden	I'm surprised there's no negative replies from europeans since there are a broad front against EU among the citizens of EU countries. As for the US losing farmers, shouldn't that be healthy. If there's a need for agricultural products farmers will meet the demands. Or have the US lost its belif in market economy?

04-22-2003, 07:40 PM	#13 (permalink)
Jlindone Upright	The problem is as we loose farmers, only slightly (I mean a hundreth of a penny) cheaper fruits and vegatables suddenly flood the market from South America, and at the same time, those fruits are offered at much greater prices to Africa. Loss of American agriculture will mean an overcommercialization of unused land. Think about it, you may have driven for a while away from a large city, can you imagine getting rid of all that open space?

04-24-2003, 10:53 PM	#14 (permalink)
bundy . Location: Tokyo	i think that the EU is incredible. the free trade and movement is amazing. like Macheath said, its pretty impossible for Australia to join anything even remotely similar in SEAsia now that Howard has once again isolated Australia from the region. __________________ Ohayo!!!

04-25-2003, 12:17 AM	#15 (permalink)
harry Tilted	Im from Austria - we are part of both the EU and the EURO-zone. The general feeling round here is that it was a good thing to join the Union, mainly because of economical reasons. There has been some scepticism through the years concerning where the Union is heading politically and most people shared the fear of a sprawling bureaucratic central government sitting in Brussels telling us what size our beer bottles had to be. Right now its a different picture, because people are more angry about Washington than Brussels and many now think there should be a common foreign-policy and even a strong joint army to counter American domination and make them listen to the European view of things. Personally I dont think we are going to have some sort of "United States of Europe" though, not in our lifetimes anyway. There are too many national interests and viewpoints as the discussions about the war in Iraq have shown. Secondly the smaller memberstates have already stated they will block anything, that shifts power to the bigger nations and brussels. Anyway i dont think it would be a good idea to start some kind of rivalry between the EU and the US. Who knows where it might lead us and certainly world-economy would suffer. I guess the best thing to do would be for the Americans to kick George W. and his henchmen out of the White house as soon as possible and everything will go right back to normal, ok folks? Last edited by harry; 04-25-2003 at 12:34 AM..

04-25-2003, 12:46 AM	#16 (permalink)
Nad Adam Psycho Location: Sweden	Yeah, there has been some stupid regulations about beer-size and cucumberangles but I think that's mostly something the "no to eu"-crowd has blown out of proportion to build anti-eu opinion. Anyway the beurocracy needs to be limited. A joint army is a thing for the union. If we had one army under a joint command that would greatly help us in getting our foreign politics togheter. __________________ Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. - Psalms 137:9

04-25-2003, 01:44 AM	#17 (permalink)
bartman Upright	two points: 1- How can we have a joint euro army, when half the eu is against the war in iraq? If NATO aint broke then dont fix it! 2- The EURO could work, but some regions will suffer. When a country is free to set its own interest rates, it can ease the burden of an economic slow down, and stop the economy overheating at other times. In the EURO when Germany is in recesion, and Ireland is booming niether has the correct interest rate, and this causes big problems.

04-25-2003, 03:01 AM	#18 (permalink)
Nad Adam Psycho Location: Sweden	If we had a joint army then we would only take military action when a majority was for it. If a country was to take it's own army to military action and eu staying home that would send a strong message to this country and the world. As for the intrest rates, this problem exists on a smaller scale in countries today. Countries can still stimulate the growth with their taxes but that takes some more planning. __________________ Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. - Psalms 137:9

04-25-2003, 06:37 AM	#19 (permalink)
Daval Junkie Location: The True North Strong and Free!	I am for the EU. I lived in Europe for a number of years so I feel qualified to offer my opinion. I think it is good for the poorer countries and will help them catch up to the rest of europe by opening up the markets. __________________ "It is impossible to obtain a conviction for sodomy from an English jury. Half of them don't believe that it can physically be done, and the other half are doing it." Winston Churchill

04-25-2003, 09:10 AM	#21 (permalink)
Liquor Dealer Super Agitator Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A	I believe that the EU could work but it is going to take a long time for many people to actually have any faith in it (Oh - I forgot - I do not live in the EU). The recent actions taken by France when it attempted to strong arm the smaller countries in Eastern Europe are probably the biggest obstacle that will have to be overcome. Perhaps I do not even understand what it is supposed to accomplish but, that said, it really makes sense that the many political entities that make up Europe would be better off if they were truly united. The major question facing these nations is what is it going to cost, not in money, but in power. Many of the European nations are arrogant to the point of being totally obnoxious, and this is not in reference to recent current events - they were totally obnoxious long before that. These nations, in my opinion, will never be willing to give a single inch. They are going to be in charge or it simply isn't going to happen. Conclusion - it probably won't happen. Let's pose another question along these lines - How about a United America? Could that happen? I, at one time, thought this to be a possibility, Hell, Mexico might as well be united with someone else - all of their population is here already. Then, Canada, which not to long ago seemed to be almost indistinguishable from the US, reminded us that they are most definitely a foreign country. I think the same thing will appear in the EU. It will take decades to unite people and only seconds to separate them.