I'm afraid of the candidates :( - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Ustwo · 12-18-2007, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Jimmy Carter is probably the smartest of the post WWII presidents. He is, after all, a nuclear scientist.

And yet he was pretty much an awful president.

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Obviously, Clinton is way up there on the smart-o-meter, but I think that it was his personal charisma that made him a great leader. He went through impeachment hearings and still came out beloved in many circles.

And yet, his actions gave congress to the republicans in 1994.

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Reagan was certainly not booksmart, but again, the charisma made him what he was.

And yet he ended the cold war.

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We need leaders who stand up and lead, even when they're wrong. It seems to me that most of the candidates are poll-followers.

Mmmmm the closest person to to meet this requirement is our current president. Sort of ironic.

The_Jazz · 12-18-2007, 02:48 PM

I think I need to clarify my point a bit. I think that many times a good leader is the person that overcomes the inertia and gets people moving in a direction. I do no like the direction GW Bush has taken us, but I will grant that he has led us there. It may have been a manufactured problem, but he motivated the people to solve it.

Hitler was a great leader. A sonofabitch, but a great leader. So was Stalin. So was Roosevelt. And, perhaps, so is Bush.

Willravel · 12-18-2007, 02:51 PM

Leadership isn't just about herding people, in my mind, it's about giving them a good course. Would a captain of a ship be a good leader if he convinced all of his poor dregs to float into a reef? I don't think so. Sure, he is convincing, but is that the only trait of a good leader?

Good leader:
Can plot a corse, can convince his underlings that this is a right corse, and can make sure that's the best corse for the ship. If he's wrong, he can change corse, too!

The_Jazz · 12-18-2007, 03:00 PM

"Course" has a "u". Sorry, pet peeve.

But what if the captain is convinced that floating his charges onto a reef is the right thing? Or what if he runs into an uncharted reef?

I like the analogy, but GW Bush DOES fit your definition of a good leader. So did Hitler. And Roosevelt. And Kennedy.

Plan9 · 12-18-2007, 03:08 PM

Fine, I'm voting for JFK then.

Willravel · 12-18-2007, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

"Course" has a "u". Sorry, pet peeve.

Of corse it does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

But what if the captain is convinced that floating his charges onto a reef is the right thing? Or what if he runs into an uncharted reef?

I like the analogy, but GW Bush DOES fit your definition of a good leader. So did Hitler. And Roosevelt. And Kennedy.

No, Bush is not a good leader. A leader leads for his (or her) people. Bush leads for himself and a few friends. Kennedy, while not perfect, did lead for the sake of his country. Being a leader is about making sure that you care for those you're charged with serving.

Plan9 · 12-18-2007, 03:13 PM

I'm really glad you didn't use the Hitler example, Will.

dc_dux · 12-18-2007, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

And yet, his (Clinton) actions gave congress to the republicans in 1994.

Bush's actions gave Congress to the Democrats in 2006

Quote:

And yet he (Reagan) ended the cold war.

Bush started a war he doesnt know how to end.

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Mmmmm the closest person to to meet this requirement is our current president. Sort of ironic.

Ironic...perhaps not

Ustwo · 12-18-2007, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

Bush's actions gave Congress to the Democrats in 2006

Bush started a war he doesnt know how to end.

Ironic...perhaps not

No reason to be defensive, just showing that perceived intelligence and success as the president doesn't seem to have much of a correlation.

I'll also add that its PERCEIVED intelligence. Its easy to say how stupid someone is when most of the time its because you don't agree with them.

Willravel · 12-18-2007, 04:05 PM

In no world is Bush smart. It has nothing to do with agreement. Google "bushism".

dc_dux · 12-18-2007, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

No reason to be defensive, just showing that perceived intelligence and success as the president doesn't seem to have much of a correlation.

I'll also add that its PERCEIVED intelligence. Its easy to say how stupid someone is when most of the time its because you don't agree with them.

Not defensive.....just a different perspective

But to change course here....

Will, will you still vote Green Party (list of candidates here) if Cynthia McKinney is the party's candidate. The buzz is she is a serious, if not the leading, contender. Now, there's a nutcase (strike "nutcase"..in the spirit of the OP, lets just say "scary")

roachboy · 12-18-2007, 04:18 PM

there is a real problem with this management literature notion of "leadership" that gets mapped onto politics in a psuedo-democratic system like the american. you can use it to rationalize the profoundly dismal performance of the bush administration for example by making a virtue of what by any rational standard is a problem in the refusal to acknowledge reality that does not fit with one's ideological preconceptions. you can use it to imagine this range of mediocrities as offering the system as a way out of the afterburn of the 7 profoundly dismal years of wholesale incompetence that we still endure, without a peep. it seems to me that any such cult of the leader is entirely out of phase with any relation, even remote, to a democratic process. not only that, but it appears infantile, like we are waiting for daddy to save us and daddy only visits on television.

as for the op, the corporate sector is quite big in the states--if you figure in shareholders (as you should) it designates an entire social class that has no particular understanding of its own class interests--so it is divided, with different groups aligning with different of the interchangeable centrist non-entities that are currently designated the "front-runners"---so it is a bit ridiculous to claim that hillary clinton in particular is in the pocket of corporate interests--you could attach it to almost all of the rational candidates (leaving ron paul to the side thereby)...for example, if you think that the bush people are not beholden to a faction within the american corporate sector, you're dreaming--but not all elements within the corporate sector understand neoliberalism as even sane, much less good for bidness, so there is a diversity of streams of corporate money animating this puppet show brought to you by cnn. but the underpinning of the "coverage" of this puppet show is entirely flows of corporate money at this point--the purpose of the show is to encourage you, the insignificant viewer, to identify your interests with one or another stream of corporate dollars. this is an index of the way in which the american polity is politically "free."

Ustwo · 12-18-2007, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

In no world is Bush smart. It has nothing to do with agreement. Google "bushism".

While I don't rate someones intelligence over public speaking ability, even if its true it does nothing to change my point that intelligence, at least as its perceived by people who really don't know the people in question, doesn't seem to stack up with their perception of presidential success.

Willravel · 12-18-2007, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

Not defensive.....just a different perspective

But to change course here....

Will, will you still vote Green Party (list of candidates here) if Cynthia McKinney is the party's candidate. The buzz is she is a serious, if not the leading, contender. Now, there's a nutcase (strike "nutcase"..in the spirit of the OP, lets just say "scary")

So fart it's Kucinich that has my vote, but it could change if a few people I know of run.

Cynthia McKinney:
Good
- Requested more information from 9/11 Commission
- Wants MLK assassination files unlocked
- Has been an activist for Katrina victims' rights
- Anti-War and pro human rights
- Has her name on articles of impeachment
Bad
- She beat up a cop (LOL)
- She *may* not like jews
- She talked shit about my homie, Al Gore

She's not the worst candidate, but she'd have to do a lot to ear my vote.

jorgelito · 12-18-2007, 07:00 PM

Intelligence is not a prerequisite for good leadership. Many smart people, geniuses even are not good leaders. Good leaders need not be scientists nor engineers. Half of my family has PhDs and are incredibly smart and intelligent. Not one, except for my mom, would make a good leader (like president). All the nerdy super smart people I know wouldn't make great leaders either. All the professors I have ever had are incredibly smart but thank God they are not in a position of leadership. Good leaders know how to lead the smart people.

mixedmedia · 12-18-2007, 07:01 PM

Is it too much to ask to desire a president who is both smart and a good leader?

Willravel · 12-18-2007, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

Intelligence is not a prerequisite for good leadership. Many smart people, geniuses even are not good leaders. Good leaders need not be scientists nor engineers. Half of my family has PhDs and are incredibly smart and intelligent. Not one, except for my mom, would make a good leader (like president).

Again, intelligence is not the only trait, but it's something a leader can't do without. Yeesh.

ratbastid · 12-18-2007, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I'll also add that its PERCEIVED intelligence. Its easy to say how stupid someone is when most of the time its because you don't agree with them.

That's interesting...

Okay, I'll bite. You agree with Bush more than you disagree with him. Would you honestly say he's a smart man?

Charlatan · 12-18-2007, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

Is it too much to ask to desire a president who is both smart and a good leader?

It would be great yes... but I agree with jorgelito. A good leader doesn't have to be a genius, they just need to be smart enough to select good advisers.

Leadership is more of a charismatic thing than just intelligence.

jorgelito · 12-18-2007, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

It would be great yes... but I agree with jorgelito. A good leader doesn't have to be a genius, they just need to be smart enough to select good advisers.

Leadership is more of a charismatic thing than just intelligence.

Dammnit, you said it much better than I did. I would add maybe wisdom too rather than say, raw intelligence.

Ustwo · 12-18-2007, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

That's interesting...

Okay, I'll bite. You agree with Bush more than you disagree with him. Would you honestly say he's a smart man?

Smarter than I am no, but smarter than you think he is? Yes, without a doubt.

Charlatan · 12-18-2007, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

Dammnit, you said it much better than I did. I would add maybe wisdom too rather than say, raw intelligence.

Agreed on the Wisdom vs. Intelligence. It's an important distinction to make.

Hey, wait... all we need are some stats for Dexterity, Strength and Constitution and we can make a kick ass D&D character...

Elphaba · 12-18-2007, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

...Based on pure intelligence there has never been a president smarter than me, but that doesn't mean I think I'd have done a better job than any of them.

I didn't realize that a perfected measure of "pure intelligence" had been created yet. How exactly have you determined yourself to be "smarter" than any president?

Back on topic...

Hal, you didn't mentioned Edwards in your OP. What are your thoughts about him?

host · 12-19-2007, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

there is a real problem with this management literature notion of "leadership" that gets mapped onto politics in a psuedo-democratic system like the american.

.... you can use it to imagine this range of mediocrities as offering the system as a way out of the afterburn of the 7 profoundly dismal years of wholesale incompetence that we still endure, without a peep. it seems to me that any such cult of the leader is entirely out of phase with any relation, even remote, to a democratic process. not only that, but it appears infantile, like we are waiting for daddy to save us and daddy only visits on television.

as for the op, the corporate sector is quite big in the states--if you figure in shareholders (as you should)<h3> it designates an entire social class that has no particular understanding of its own class interests--so it is divided, with different groups aligning with different of the interchangeable centrist non-entities that are currently designated the "front-runners"</h3>---so it is a bit ridiculous to claim that hillary clinton in particular is in the pocket of corporate interests--you could attach it to almost all of the rational candidates (leaving ron paul to the side thereby)...for example, if you think that the bush people are not beholden to a faction within the american corporate sector, you're dreaming--but not all elements within the corporate sector understand neoliberalism as even sane, much less good for bidness, so there is a diversity of streams of corporate money animating this puppet show brought to you by cnn. but the underpinning of the "coverage" of this puppet show is entirely flows of corporate money at this point--the purpose of the show is to encourage you, the insignificant viewer, to identify your interests with one or another stream of corporate dollars. this is an index of the way in which the american polity is politically "free."

roachboy, one "sport" along with corporate America, and the US military, have "channeled" what you described so succinctly and with such an inspiring economy of words, in your last post.

THEY have manipulated the "fans" to pay to wear the racing car sponsors' and the privately owned auto racing organization's symbols, logos, and names, on clothing that they buy and wear. The fans emulate on their own bodies, the advertisements that the drivers and race car teams GET PAID by the sponsors to appear in public wearing on their hats and uniforms and on body panels of the racing cars.

I see this phenomena as a possible answer to your:

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

....as for the op, the corporate sector is quite big in the states--if you figure in shareholders (as you should) it designates an entire social class that has no particular understanding of its own class interests--so it is divided, with different groups aligning with different of the interchangeable centrist non-entities that are currently designated the "front-runners"

In Manhattan, and in the tri-state metropolitan area that rings it, it is my observation that, compared to anywhere else in a south or southwest direction, it is still as if Nascar does not exist, let alone dominates. Nascar in much of the rest of the US is, in my opinion, a phenomena that has figured the majority of Americans "out", as I think roachboy has. It answers why many do not perceive what political beliefs are in their own best interests, as people in Europe, Scandinavia, and Canada, seem to have been more successful at doing.

If populism ever takes hold again in the US, Nascar could take a hard hit. I think it is a barometer of sentiment of "average" American attitude toward corporate dominance, and currently there is little resistance towards it, AND THE MONEY PARTY RULES POLITICS, NOT AT ALL UNLIKE THE WAY IT RULES NASCAR:

Quote:

http://web.archive.org/web/200403060...n-m-02-17.html
Shifting Gears
When it comes to presidential elections, there may be more to the NASCAR set than meets the eye.
By Matt Thompson
Web Exclusive: 2.17.04

....Some of the Republicanism here, especially among the younger members of the crowd, could be described as perhaps nothing more than brand loyalty.

NASCAR drivers cover every inch of their cars and uniforms with the brands of their corporate sponsors. Diehard fans mark themselves from head to hip with logos and tattoos to show solidarity with those drivers, surrendering every available inch of torso for companies to cover with product names. At any given minute, I'm passed by hundreds of walking advertisements for Kellogg's Frosted Mini-Wheats, M&Ms, DuPont, Sharpie, Winston and Valvoline, among others.

To some at the race, "Republican" and "Democrat" are just two more words to add to the list. An enterprising Democratic candidate might woo these fans away from their loyalty to the label.

Consider Sean and Sean.

Sean Bugg, 22, is rooting for Rusty Wallace in today's race, and wears the jacket of Wallace's sponsor, Miller Lite. Sean Clark, 23, wears a Budweiser jacket in support of driver Dale Earnhardt Jr.

Miller Lite Sean has the stronger political beliefs of the two, mostly based, he says, on the beliefs of his Republican parents. Budweiser Sean, if he votes at all, will probably vote for Bush, too.

"That Bush," Miller Lite Sean says, "he's going to keep shooting straight the whole time, basically. Bush is the one that went over there and handled shit, you know?"

"Yeah," chimes in Budweiser Sean, "Definitely handled that."

So is there anything a Democratic candidate could say to sway them?

"I don't know," Budweiser Sean says slowly, after a moment. "Don't know about that. I'd have to hear him talk first."

They're at least open to the possibility of changing their minds about who they're going to vote for. And even at the Daytona 500, a lot of people refuse to be labeled.

Steve Carlson, 32, sports no product logos on his clothes. He's not a big NASCAR fan, just someone who came to see if it would be a good show. He didn't vote in the last election, and doesn't know which way he'd have gone if he had. A Democrat could win his vote, he says, by "dropping [the] party nomination and going independent, saying, 'This is what I really believe.'"...

Quote:

NASCAR.COM - Nationwide Insurance to be sponsor of No. 2 series ...
NASCAR fans are more likely to feel loyal towards an insurance company that is a sponsor, according to the ESPN Sports Poll. Additionally, NASCAR fans are ...
http://www.nascar.com/2007/news/head...sor/index.html

http://www.onlyagame.org/features/2007/08/billboard.asp
The 200-MPH Billboard
Date: 8/30/2007
Mark Yost's book is about the rise of NASCAR as an exceptionally profitable and slick corporate entity, and it is also about the people who've embraced that entity.

NASCAR's fans wear the jackets and caps of its sponsors. They drink the coffee of the company that buys the right to put its decal on the sleeve of their favorite driver. They sign up for bank cards bearing the images of those drivers. They pat their sons on the back when, high on the roar and adrenaline of the race track, those sons stop at the Army recruiting booth between the oval and the parking lot and enlist for Iraq.

This is no exaggeration. Exaggeration may not be possible in the context of NASCAR. Here is what Yost writes about the recruiting efforts at one especially well-attended race:

"The 82nd Airborne glee club sang prior to the start of the Daytona 500. As country duo Big & Rich hit the final notes of the National Anthem, U.S. Navy F-14 Tomcats screamed overhead. The patriotism Pulsing through the stands was palatable (sic), and I'm sure making some teenagers -- and their parents -- think about stopping at one of the kiosks on the way out and asking, 'Where can I sign up?'"

This is not to suggest that all NASCAR fans equate patriotism with charging into war. The crowds at the track are big. There must be some people in the horde who are less than delighted that the President of the United States lied to them about his reasons for unleashing "shock and awe" on Iraq and then so thoroughly botched the war that even many of his former supporters have jumped ship.

But The 200-MPH Billboard shines a little light on the crowd that's hungry for thrills and heroes and one of the industries that's thriving mightily by manufacturing them, whether or not that was the author's intent.

http://www.egroupnet.com/3m/home.asp

Welcome to the home for 3M NASCAR Branded Merchandise!
3M is excited about its partnership with Greg Biffle and Todd Kluever for the 2007 season. This website is your exclusive source for official 3M NASCAR apparel and merchandise.

NASCAR Facts

* NASCAR is the #2 brand in America - ahead of Google and iPod.
* The Daytona 500 race draws larger crowds than a Super Bowl, NBA Finals game, and World Series game combined
* Over 40% of the 75 million NASCAR fans in the United States are women.
* 89% of NASCAR fans say, "When I see the NASCAR logo on something, I know it will be a quality product."

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/edcut?bid=7&pid=3705
BLOG | Posted 06/21/2005 @ 7:09pm
Recruiters Sink to New Lows

...Activists are holding rallies to raise awareness, urging families to tell schools to keep their personal data private. A student-led campaign at a high school in Montclair, New Jersey, convinced more than 80 percent of the student body to keep their private information hidden from recruiters.

Then there's NASCAR. Our US military is spending millions of dollars a year recruiting young men at NASCAR races. As the Air Force's superintendent of motorsports said (according to the AP, that's actually his jobomgsuperintendent of motorsports), NASCAR is the military's "target market." The Army alone is spending $16 million a year at NASCAR events. Each branch of the Armed Forces sponsors NASCAR race drivers and they set up recruiting booths outside of NASCAR events. This "belly-to-belly selling," the superintendent of motorsports explained, enables the military to woo potential recruits "face to face." ...

<img src="http://youbeenblinded.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/army-nascar-jackets.jpg">

http://www.military.com/NASCAR
Army Closes out Season Strong
<img src="http://images.military.com/pics/nascar_111907.jpg"><br><i>Mark Martin ended the 2007 NASCAR Nextel Cup season Sunday with a solid ninth-place finish at Homestead-Miami Speedway. More</i>

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1109/p12s02-alsp.html
In the fast lane, NASCAR draws plenty of converts
Once considered a second-class circuit compared with Indy car drivers and Formula 1, NASCAR has become a hot ticket for racers from rival circuits.
By Erik Spanberg | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor

from the November 9, 2007 edition...

fastom · 12-19-2007, 01:27 AM

I can't believe anybody thinks Bush is smarter than a 5th grader. Watch the many videos of him speaking. He truly doesn't have a clue what the hell he's talking about. That is a very bad quality in a mayor nevermind a "Decider" for the whole country.

I agree with HalX on the first post and add there should be a "None of the above" choice. Ron Paul seems to be the lesser evil if we can believe his campaign platform will even be remotely close to his presidency.

Comment on the post by Host (hey i rhymed!) above.

Nascar isn't the only Motorsport the Army has been bombarding with recruitment booths. Check out the NHRA drag races.
http://www.nhra.com/ (Army link at bottom of page)

host · 12-19-2007, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastom

I can't believe anybody thinks Bush is smarter than a 5th grader. Watch the many videos of him speaking. He truly doesn't have a clue what the hell he's talking about. That is a very bad quality in a mayor nevermind a "Decider" for the whole country.

I agree with HalX on the first post and add there should be a "None of the above" choice. Ron Paul seems to be the lesser evil if we can believe his campaign platform will even be remotely close to his presidency.

Bush is smart enough to give everyone he encounters a nickname, and constantly use self deprecating remarks and a familiar and "approachable" demeanor to get what he went after....two terms as Texas governer and two terms in the white house:

Quote:

http://www.etalkinghead.com/archives...006-04-27.html

....How then, should we understand Mr. Bush's proclivity for nicknaming? I believe the key lies in a scene from the 1962 movie, Hatari, directed by Howard Hawks. Basically, the film revolves around John Wayne (Sean Mercer) and his entourage, who trap wild animals in Africa and sell them to zoos. After one of the characters introduces himself with a preposterously long and pompous French name, Wayne looks at him with a mixture of irony and contempt, and says, Chips will do. Substitute W for the Duke in the role of Sean Mercer, and you will get the picture.

Nicknames serve an important function of dominion for all of us, of course: they define and delimit another's powers and status. Nicknames put people in their place. In the case of Mr. Bush�s Secretary of State, Condoleeza Rice, this is apparently an exalted place�she has earned the nickname, Guru. Others, such as Maureen Dowd, are not so fortunate. Naming of any sort serves an important ritualized function in human culture: it is the first step in gaining control over a potentially dangerous or malevolent entity. A frightening category 4 hurricane is nicknamed, Katrina. Osama bin Laden is christened, The Evil One by the President of the United States. In a world filled with complex and terrifying forces, it should not surprise us that an anxious American president would look for ways to reduce potential adversaries to manageable sound bites. The danger lies in imagining that this actually reduces the danger and in supposing that nicknames do no harm.

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http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0070222-5.html

........because doesn't it make sense to be able to say to our farmers, grow what you can grow so we become less dependent on oil. I like the idea of a President being able to say, wow, the crop report is in, we're growing more corn than ever before, which means we're importing less oil from overseas. It's an exciting time to think about that our farmers not only are going to grow what we need to eat, but it's going to grow what we need to run our automobiles.

And that's coming. That's what we're here to discuss today. I know it sounds like a pipe dream to some -- you know, there goes the optimistic President talking again. But you're going to hear from some experts here. I'm just a history major. (Laughter.) And I'm with Ph.D.s. (Laughter.) Let me remind you who the President is. (Laughter and applause.)

But the Ph.D.s are providing the brain power necessary to help plants like this develop technologies that will enable us to convert wood chips into fuels that are running automobiles..........

Born and college educated in New Haven, Connecticut, prepared at <a href="http://www.andover.edu/about_andover/notable_alums.htm">Phillips Andover Academy</a> , and finally a Harvard MBA graduate, Bush achieved proficiency as a military fighter jet pilot..... he transformed himself from a New England born, at least 12 years Mass. and Conn. educated young man from an affluent WASP northeast family and a background that included a grandfather, Conn. US senator Prescott Bush, into a "good ole boy", with heavy Texas drawl and an affability that made him, even with it known that he stopped drinking, someone who many voters yearned to share a few beers with.

If you think that Bush's transformation was accidental, he stayed away from Yale's campus for 33 years, and that he is not an "actor" or a cunning political "animal" with a skill level at least as great as Ronald Reagan's was, you don't know the man, or his talents. He disarms his adversaries, and then beats them. I see his phoniness, as I could see Reagan's, and I regard both men as equally unattractive. Many didn't see it in one or both of them, and both of these "chameleon" politicians, made Bush '41 look stiff, Patrician, and aloof, like...John Kerry and Al Gore appeared to be.....

Quote:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0010521-2.html
May 21, 2001

Remarks by the President in Commencement Address Yale University New Haven, Connecticut

....I'm particularly pleased to be here with my friend, the former of Mexico. Senor Presidente, usted es un verdadero lider, y un gran amigo. (Applause.)

I congratulate all the parents who are here. It's a glorious day when your child graduates from college. It's a great day for you; it's a great day for your wallet. (Laughter.)

Most important, congratulations to the class of 2001. (Applause.) To those of you who received honors, awards, and distinctions, I say, well done. <h3>And to the C students -- (applause) -- I say, you, too, can be President of the United States.</h3> (Laughter and applause.) A Yale degree is worth a lot, as I often remind Dick Cheney -- (laughter) -- who studied here, but left a little early. So now we know -- if you graduate from Yale, you become President. If you drop out, you get to be Vice President. (Laughter.)

I appreciate so very much the chance to say a few words on this occasion. I know Yale has a tradition of having no commencement speaker. I also know that you've carved out a single exception. Most people think that to speak at Yale's commencement, you have to be President. But over the years, the specifications have become far more demanding. Now you have to be a Yale graduate, you have to be President, and you have had to have lost the Yale vote to Ralph Nader. (Applause.)

This is my first time back here in quite a while. I'm sure that each of you will make your own journey back at least a few times in your life. If you're like me, you won't remember everything you did here. (Laughter.) That can be a good thing. (Laughter.) But there will be some people, and some moments, you will never forget. ....

.....Our course selections were different, as we followed our own path to academic discovery. Dick was an English major, and loved the classics. I loved history, and pursued a diversified course of study. I like to think of it as the academic road less traveled. (Laughter.)

For example, I took a class that studied Japanese Haiku. Haiku, for the uninitiated, is a 15th century form of poetry, each poem having 17 syllables. Haiku is fully understood only by the Zen masters. As I recall, one of my academic advisers was worried about my selection of such a specialized course. He said I should focus on English. (Laughter.) I still hear that quite often. (Laughter.) But my critics don't realize I don't make verbal gaffes. I'm speaking in the perfect forms and rhythms of ancient Haiku. (Applause.)

I did take English here, and I took a class called "The History and Practice of American Oratory," taught by Rollin G. Osterweis. (Applause.) And, President Levin, I want to give credit where credit is due. I want the entire world to know this -- everything I know about the spoken word, I learned right here at Yale. (Laughter.)

As a student, I tried to keep a low profile. It worked. Last year the New York Times interviewed John Morton Blum because the record showed I had taken one of his courses. Casting his mind's eye over the parade of young faces down through the years, Professor Blum said, and I quote, "I don't have the foggiest recollection of him." (Laughter.) .....

..... I'm not sure I remembered to thank them the last time I was here, but now that I have a second chance, I thank the professors of Yale University. (Applause.)

That's how I've come to feel about the Yale experience -- grateful. I studied hard, I played hard, and I made a lot of lifelong friends. What stays with you from college is the part of your education you hardly ever notice at the time. It's the expectations and examples around you, the ideals you believe in, and the friends you make.

In my time, they spoke of the "Yale man." I was really never sure what that was. But I do think that I'm a better man because of Yale. All universities, at their best, teach that degrees and honors are far from the full measure of life. Nor is that measure taken in wealth or in titles. What matters most are the standards you live by, the consideration you show others, and the way you use the gifts you are given.

Now you leave Yale behind, carrying the written proof of your success here, at a college older than America. When I left here, I didn't have much in the way of a life plan. I knew some people who thought they did. But it turned out that we were all in for ups and downs, most of them unexpected. Life takes its own turns, makes its own demands, writes its own story. And along the way, we start to realize we are not the author.

We begin to understand that life is ours to live, but not to waste, and that the greatest rewards are found in the commitments we make with our whole hearts -- to the people we love and to the causes that earn our sacrifice. I hope that each of you will know these rewards. I hope you will find them in your own way and your own time.

For some, that might mean some time in public service. And if you hear that calling, I hope you answer. Each of you has unique gifts and you were given them for a reason. Use them and share them. Public service is one way -- an honorable way -- to mark your life with meaning.

Today I visit not only my alma mater, but the city of my birth. My life began just a few blocks from here, but I was raised in West Texas. From there, Yale always seemed a world away, maybe a part of my future. Now it's part of my past, and Yale for me is a source of great pride.

I hope that there will come a time for you to return to Yale to say that, and feel as I do today. And I hope you won't wait as long. Congratulations and God bless. (Applause.)

Will Obama take this advice? Did John Kerry in 2004?

Quote:

http://blogs.unionleader.com/andrew-cline/?p=987
....Obama already suffers from coming across as too professorial and upper crust. These types of campaign surrogates will only solidify that image. What he needs are some good, old-fashioned union guys, a NASCAR driver or maybe a country singer. A male country singer.

He’s got to show that he understands regular folks and can communicate with them. Plus, it would help to bring in a bigger draw. ...

mixedmedia · 12-19-2007, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

It would be great yes... but I agree with jorgelito. A good leader doesn't have to be a genius, they just need to be smart enough to select good advisers.

Leadership is more of a charismatic thing than just intelligence.

Well, I didn't mean to imply he would be a genius.

For instance, even though I don't like him, Bill Clinton was both intelligent and a good leader. I think it's fair to say that.

I don't think it's impossible to find in a person. We seem to have resigned ourselves here to an either/or eventuality largely because of one (seemingly) dumb president. Who, like host notes above, I don't believe is as dense as he makes himself appear to be anyway.

abaya · 12-19-2007, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

For instance, even though I don't like him, Bill Clinton was both intelligent and a good leader. I think it's fair to say that.

Once again, we agree. For example, how many people around here have gone through the Rhodes Scholar selection process? One of my best friends in college did, and it was grueling. He made it to the last level, but still didn't make the final cut. Not just anyone gets those kind of awards, I think we can all admit that.

I'm trying to imagine George Bush applying for it when he was at Yale...

Yeah, right.

Ustwo · 12-19-2007, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastom

I can't believe anybody thinks Bush is smarter than a 5th grader. Watch the many videos of him speaking. He truly doesn't have a clue what the hell he's talking about. That is a very bad quality in a mayor nevermind a "Decider" for the whole country.

Somehow he pulled off the greatest conspiracy of all time (according to you) and he's not smarter than a 5th grader? Damn I hate to see what a 5th grader could do then!

Halx · 12-19-2007, 09:37 AM

In defense of Bill Clinton, he was the ONLY president in the last 60 years to end his term with a higher approval rating than when he began it. He was good.

Willravel · 12-19-2007, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Somehow he pulled off the greatest conspiracy of all time (according to you) and he's not smarter than a 5th grader? Damn I hate to see what a 5th grader could do then!

How is something everyone is aware of a conspiracy? How is something no one has tried to hide a conspiracy?

Go look up conspiracy. And, for good measure, go look up socialism again.

Plan9 · 12-19-2007, 11:21 AM

Hell, even I think Bill Clinton did great things... and I own firearms.

12-18-2007, 02:48 PM	#42 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	I think I need to clarify my point a bit. I think that many times a good leader is the person that overcomes the inertia and gets people moving in a direction. I do no like the direction GW Bush has taken us, but I will grant that he has led us there. It may have been a manufactured problem, but he motivated the people to solve it. Hitler was a great leader. A sonofabitch, but a great leader. So was Stalin. So was Roosevelt. And, perhaps, so is Bush. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

12-18-2007, 03:00 PM	#44 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	"Course" has a "u". Sorry, pet peeve. But what if the captain is convinced that floating his charges onto a reef is the right thing? Or what if he runs into an uncharted reef? I like the analogy, but GW Bush DOES fit your definition of a good leader. So did Hitler. And Roosevelt. And Kennedy. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

12-18-2007, 03:08 PM	#45 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Fine, I'm voting for JFK then. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

12-18-2007, 03:13 PM	#47 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	I'm really glad you didn't use the Hitler example, Will. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

12-18-2007, 04:18 PM	#52 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	there is a real problem with this management literature notion of "leadership" that gets mapped onto politics in a psuedo-democratic system like the american. you can use it to rationalize the profoundly dismal performance of the bush administration for example by making a virtue of what by any rational standard is a problem in the refusal to acknowledge reality that does not fit with one's ideological preconceptions. you can use it to imagine this range of mediocrities as offering the system as a way out of the afterburn of the 7 profoundly dismal years of wholesale incompetence that we still endure, without a peep. it seems to me that any such cult of the leader is entirely out of phase with any relation, even remote, to a democratic process. not only that, but it appears infantile, like we are waiting for daddy to save us and daddy only visits on television. as for the op, the corporate sector is quite big in the states--if you figure in shareholders (as you should) it designates an entire social class that has no particular understanding of its own class interests--so it is divided, with different groups aligning with different of the interchangeable centrist non-entities that are currently designated the "front-runners"---so it is a bit ridiculous to claim that hillary clinton in particular is in the pocket of corporate interests--you could attach it to almost all of the rational candidates (leaving ron paul to the side thereby)...for example, if you think that the bush people are not beholden to a faction within the american corporate sector, you're dreaming--but not all elements within the corporate sector understand neoliberalism as even sane, much less good for bidness, so there is a diversity of streams of corporate money animating this puppet show brought to you by cnn. but the underpinning of the "coverage" of this puppet show is entirely flows of corporate money at this point--the purpose of the show is to encourage you, the insignificant viewer, to identify your interests with one or another stream of corporate dollars. this is an index of the way in which the american polity is politically "free." __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

12-18-2007, 02:51 PM	#43 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Leadership isn't just about herding people, in my mind, it's about giving them a good course. Would a captain of a ship be a good leader if he convinced all of his poor dregs to float into a reef? I don't think so. Sure, he is convincing, but is that the only trait of a good leader? Good leader: Can plot a corse, can convince his underlings that this is a right corse, and can make sure that's the best corse for the ship. If he's wrong, he can change corse, too!

12-18-2007, 04:05 PM	#50 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	In no world is Bush smart. It has nothing to do with agreement. Google "bushism".

12-18-2007, 07:00 PM	#55 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Intelligence is not a prerequisite for good leadership. Many smart people, geniuses even are not good leaders. Good leaders need not be scientists nor engineers. Half of my family has PhDs and are incredibly smart and intelligent. Not one, except for my mom, would make a good leader (like president). All the nerdy super smart people I know wouldn't make great leaders either. All the professors I have ever had are incredibly smart but thank God they are not in a position of leadership. Good leaders know how to lead the smart people.

12-18-2007, 07:01 PM	#56 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Is it too much to ask to desire a president who is both smart and a good leader? __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

12-19-2007, 01:27 AM	#65 (permalink)
fastom Psycho Location: way out west	I can't believe anybody thinks Bush is smarter than a 5th grader. Watch the many videos of him speaking. He truly doesn't have a clue what the hell he's talking about. That is a very bad quality in a mayor nevermind a "Decider" for the whole country. I agree with HalX on the first post and add there should be a "None of the above" choice. Ron Paul seems to be the lesser evil if we can believe his campaign platform will even be remotely close to his presidency. Comment on the post by Host (hey i rhymed!) above. Nascar isn't the only Motorsport the Army has been bombarding with recruitment booths. Check out the NHRA drag races. http://www.nhra.com/ (Army link at bottom of page) Last edited by fastom; 12-19-2007 at 01:39 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

12-19-2007, 09:37 AM	#70 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	In defense of Bill Clinton, he was the ONLY president in the last 60 years to end his term with a higher approval rating than when he began it. He was good. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

12-19-2007, 11:21 AM	#72 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Hell, even I think Bill Clinton did great things... and I own firearms. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."