Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > The Academy > Tilted Politics


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 11-05-2007, 02:16 AM   #1 (permalink)
Banned
 
Who's Next?

Quote:
http://www.usdoj.gov/archive/ag/test...ycommittee.htm
Testimony of Attorney General John Ashcroft
Senate Committee on the Judiciary
(NOTE: THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OFTEN DEVIATES FROM PREPARED REMARKS)
December 6, 2001

Mr. Chairman, Senator Hatch, members of the Judiciary Committee, thank you for this opportunity to testify today. It is a pleasure to be back in the United States Senate.

.... <h3>This is a seized al Qaeda training manual</h3> - a <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20011208175949/www.usdoj.gov/ag/manualpart1_1.pdf">"how-to" guide</a> for terrorists - that instructs enemy operatives in the art of killing in a free society. Prosecutors first made this manual public in the trial of the al Qaeda terrorists who bombed U.S. embassies in Africa. We are posting several al Qaeda lessons from this manual on our website today so Americans can know our enemy.

In this manual, al Qaeda terrorists are told how to use America's freedom as a weapon against us. They are instructed to use the benefits of a free press - newspapers, magazines and broadcasts - to stalk and kill their victims. They are instructed to exploit our judicial process for the success of their operations. Captured terrorists are taught to anticipate a series of questions from authorities and, in each response, to lie - to lie about who they are, to lie about what they are doing and to lie about who they know in order for the operation to achieve its objective. Imprisoned terrorists are instructed to concoct stories of torture and mistreatment at the hands of our officials. They are directed to take advantage of any contact with the outside world to, quote, "communicate with brothers outside prison and exchange information that may be helpful to them in their work. The importance of mastering the art of hiding messages is self-evident here.".....
Quote:
http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/1/hi/uk/4442479.stm
Wednesday, 13 April, 2005,
Comment: Questions unanswered
...'No triumph'

It was the aim of the Old Bailey prosecution to link the so-called "UK poison cell" to al-Qaeda via various documents, including the "Manual of Afghan Jihad", which had been seized in Manchester in April 2000. ...

http://web.archive.org/web/200504181...rald.com/49175
A pestle and mortar and castor beans ... tools of a terror plot or an excuse for the government to ramp up public paranoia?

....“You’ve now got a situation where Charles Clarke is saying we need to change the justice system and get identity cards,” Hayes says. “They don’t want to admit that the whole idea of an al-Qaeda conspiracy has been a farce from start to finish.”

17 April 2005.....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/alqaida/st...585130,00.html
Explanation for the Guardian altering and re-posting this article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...598960,00.html
The ricin ring that never was
Yesterday's trial collapse has exposed the deception behind attempts to link al-Qaida to a 'poison attack' on London
Duncan Campbell
Thursday April 14, 2005
Guardian

....When, in October, I showed that the chemical lists found in London were an exact copy of pages on an internet site in
Palo Alto, California, the prosecution gave up on the Kabul and al-Qaida link claims. But it seems this information was
not shared with the then home secretary, David Blunkett, who was still whipping up fear two weeks later. "Al-Qaida and
the international network is seen to be, and will be demonstrated through the courts over months to come, actually on our
doorstep and threatening our lives," he said on November 14.
The most ironic twist was an attempt to introduce an "al-Qaida manual" into the case. The manual - called the Manual of
the Afghan Jihad - had been found on a raid in Manchester in 2000. <h3>It was given to the FBI to produce in the 2001 New
York trial for the first attack on the World Trade Centre. But it wasn't an al-Qaida manual. The name was invented by the
US department of justice in 2001, and the contents were rushed on to the net to aid a presentation to the Senate by the
then attorney general, John Ashcroft, supporting the US Patriot Act.</h3>
To show that the Jihad manual was written in the 1980s and the period of the US-supported war against the Soviet
occupation was easy. The ricin recipe it contained was a direct translation from a 1988 US book called the Poisoner's
Handbook, by Maxwell Hutchkinson.
We have all been victims of this mass deception. I do not doubt that Bourgass would have contemplated causing harm if
he was competent to do so. But he was an Islamist yobbo on his own, not an Al Qaida-trained superterrorist. An Asbo
might be appropriate.
? Duncan Campbell is an investigative writer and a scientific expert witness on computers and telecommunications. He is
author of War Plan UK and is not the Guardian journalist of the same name

US news coverage= http://www.newsweek.com/id/49342
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2005Apr13.html

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0060905-4.html
For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
September 5, 2006

President Discusses Global War on Terror
Capital Hilton Hotel
Washington, D.C.

THE PRESIDENT:....These radicals have declared their uncompromising hostility to freedom. It is foolish to think that you can negotiate with them. (Applause.) We see the uncompromising nature of the enemy in many captured terrorist documents. Here are just two examples: After the liberation of Afghanistan, coalition forces searching through a terrorist safe house in that country found a copy of the al Qaeda charter. This charter states that "there will be continuing enmity until everyone believes in Allah. We will not meet [the enemy] halfway. There will be no room for dialogue with them." <h3>Another document was found in 2000 by British police during an anti-terrorist raid in London -- a grisly al Qaeda manual</h3> that includes chapters with titles such as "Guidelines for Beating and Killing Hostages." This manual declares that their vision of Islam "does not… make a truce with unbelief, but rather confronts it." The confrontation… calls for… the dialogue of bullets, the ideals of assassination, bombing, and destruction, and the diplomacy of the cannon and machine gun."...
<h2>In the preceding paragraph, the president of the united states, boldly repeats the discredited (since april, 2005) hype about a "manual" from 1980's Afghanistan, recovered by UK police in Mancehester, UK in april, 2000, and renamed "al-Qaeda training manual" by then US atty general Ashcroft, shortly after 9/11/2001....</h2>

The agenda is to terrorize the US population with a constant hyped, manipulated, officially delivered "fear" message, with a constant railing against "activist judges", and "the courts", and "the lawyers", delivered as background "noise" accompanying the "terrorists hate us for our freedom", broadcast:

They've coined the "term" lawfare to describe "enemy: misuse of US and foreign courts as a weapon against our military:
Quote:
http://www.cfr.org/publication.html?id=5772
Lawfare, the Latest in Asymmetries

March 18, 2003
Council on Foreign Relations

What We Know:

The intersection of globalization and the emergence of international law has resulted in a variant of warfare described by some as lawfare. Lawfare is a strategy of using or misusing law as a substitute for traditional military means to achieve military objectives. Each operation conducted by the U.S. military results in new and expanding efforts by groups and countries to use lawfare to respond to military force.

Although not a symmetrical threat to American military power, lawfare can be used to undercut American objectives. For example, it can be used as a decapitation strategy as in Colombia where international groups encourage peasants to file human rights suits with few grounds against military figures. Regardless of their validity, the legal costs of fighting these suits can effectively remove a particular commander from active duty for years at a time as the cases work their way through the court system.

In addition, lawfare can be used to goad American forces into violations of the Law of Armed Combat, which are then used against the United States in the court of world opinion. Armed combatants may conceal weaponry or themselves amongst civilians, encouraging attacks that can be used as propaganda against American forces.

....What are the Next Steps?

Several participants argued that the United States should not fear lawfare, but instead embrace it and use it to its advantage. To some extent, the military has done this in the current campaign against Iraq by embedding journalists with units. These journalists will show the professional way in which the U.S. military operates and will be able to document any Iraqi attempts to use civilians as shields or any Iraqi claims regarding American atrocities.
<h3>host asks....like, at Abu Ghraib ?</h3>

....Others participating in the Roundtable were not as certain of the positive aspects of lawfare. They fear that lawfare will slowly pervade the military forces and create a climate of fear and second guessing, with lawyers exercising combat authority over generals and those in the field. In this line of thinking, the military should be allowed to operate as freely as possible, recognizing that American soldiers are well trained and inculcated with a sense of moral duty.
<h2>They introduced actual language to discredit the legal process by foreign and domestic courts, for the first time, in this 2005 defense strategy report:</h2>
Quote:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...mar2005_ib.htm
NATIONAL DEFENSE STRATEGY OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
I. AMERICA'S SECURITY IN THE 21st CENTURY
B. A CHANGING SECURITY ENVIRONMENT

....3. ASSUMPTIONS FRAMING THE STRATEGY

....OUR VULNERABILITIES

Nevertheless, we have vulnerabilities:

....Our strength as a nation state will continue to be challenged by those who employ a strategy of the weak using international fora, judicial processes, and terrorism....
Quote:
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070924/cole_lobel/4
(September 24, 2007 issue)
Why We're Losing the War on Terror

David Cole & Jules Lobel


....National Defense Strategy, published by the Pentagon, warns that "our strength as a nation state will continue to be challenged by those who employ a strategy of the weak using international fora, judicial processes, and terrorism." The proposition that judicial processes and international accountability--the very essence of the rule of law--are to be dismissed as a strategy of the weak, aligned with terrorism itself, makes clear that the Administration has come to view the rule of law as an obstacle, not an asset, in its effort to protect us from terrorist attack.....Security rests not on exceptionalism and double standards but on a commitment to fairness, justice and the rule of law. <h3>The rule of law in no way precludes a state from defending itself from terrorists but requires that it do so within constraints. And properly understood, those constraints are assets, not obstacles. Aharon Barak, who recently retired as president of Israel's Supreme Court, said it best</h3> in a case forbidding the use of "moderate physical pressure" in interrogating Palestinian terror suspects: "A democracy must sometimes fight terror with one hand tied behind its back. Even so, a democracy has the upper hand. The rule of law and the liberty of an individual constitute important components in its understanding of security. At the end of the day, they strengthen its spirit and this strength allows it to overcome its difficulties."
Quote:
http://tapdev.browsermedia.com/cs/ar..._lawfare_scare

The "Lawfare" Scare

The latest conservative attack on legal challenges to the Bush administration's detention and interrogation policies doesn't hold water.


Deborah Pearlstein | March 6, 2007
Late last month, The Wall Street Journal featured another entry in a series of op-eds from the conservative legal team of David Rivkin and Lee Casey railing against those who would challenge the administration's policies of detention, interrogation, and trial in the post-9/11 world. This time, Mssrs. Rivkin and Casey accuse lawyers who have opposed such administration policies in court of engaging in "lawfare," a term they define as "the growing use of international law claims, usually factually or legally meritless, as a tool of war."
...Given such dangerous effects, the authors contend, the administration should seek legal sanctions whenever possible to deter and punish lawyers whose advocacy would threaten to regulate any of the more "traditional" methods for waging war.....

....

Quote:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117220137149816987.html
Lawfare
By David B. Rivkin, Jr. and Lee A. Casey
Word Count: 1,077

The term "lawfare" describes the growing use of international law claims, usually factually or legally meritless, as a tool of war. The goal is to gain a moral advantage over your enemy in the court of world opinion, and potentially a legal advantage in national and international tribunals.

Al Qaeda, of course, is an experienced lawfare practitioner. <h3>Its training manual, seized by British authorities in Manchester, England, openly instructs detained al Qaeda fighters</h3> to claim torture and other types of abuse as a means of obtaining a moral advantage over their captors. That advice has been routinely followed by detainees ...

<h2>host notes: the fucking "training manual" was exposed as an Ashcroft/Bush admin. propaganda fabrication in an april 2005 criminal trial in a British court !</h2>

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/13/wa...=1&oref=slogin
Official Attacks Top Law Firms Over Detainees

Article Tools Sponsored By
By NEIL A. LEWIS
Published: January 13, 2007

WASHINGTON, Jan. 12 — The senior Pentagon official in charge of military detainees suspected of terrorism said in an interview this week that he was dismayed that lawyers at many of the nation’s top firms were representing prisoners at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, and that the firms’ corporate clients should consider ending their business ties.

The comments by Charles D. Stimson, the deputy assistant secretary of defense for detainee affairs, produced an instant torrent of anger from lawyers, legal ethics specialists and bar association officials, who said Friday that his comments were repellent and displayed an ignorance of the duties of lawyers to represent people in legal trouble.

“This is prejudicial to the administration of justice,” said Stephen Gillers, a law professor at New York University and an authority on legal ethics. “It’s possible that lawyers willing to undertake what has been long viewed as an admirable chore will decline to do so for fear of antagonizing important clients.

“We have a senior government official suggesting that representing these people somehow compromises American interests, and he even names the firms, giving a target to corporate America.”....

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q...RlOTBlY2UxYTQ=
June 12, 2007 10:10 AM

Lawfare Strikes Again
The Fourth Circuit’s combatant case heralds the return of September 10th.

By Andrew C. McCarthy

Strike another blow for lawfare: The use of the American people’s courts as a weapon against the American people in a war prosecuted by the president — the only public official elected by all Americans — under an authorization for the use of military force overwhelmingly passed by the American people’s representatives in congress. And all for the benefit of an alien sent here to attack...
Quote:
http://jaghunters.blogspot.com/2007/...-and-cinc.html

26 January 2007

THANKS TO CONGRESS AND THE CINC...

WE ARE ALL SUBJECT TO MARTIAL LAW!!

FEDERAL CIVILIAN COURTS, AUTHORIZED BY CONGRESS AND MADE OPERABLE BY AN EXECUTIVE ORDER SIGNED BY COMMANDER IN CHIEF BUSH, MAY PROSECUTE ALL CIVILIANS UNDER ARTICLE 47 OF ARTICLES OF WAR (UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE).
<h3>So we have a US administration with a six year history of hyping a terror threat via deliberately false, fabricated, and misleading declarations (remember the politically timed, color coded terror "alerts" that crippled airport operations? We have a collective effort by the executive branch, the DOD, and by sympathetic media to discredit our legal process, calling it a weapon used to counter our military, a campaign complete with actual intimidation of law firms by an asst. sec'ty of defense. For the icing on "the cake", we have the foundation, in the immediately preceding link and description, of a recent executive authorization for civilian courtsmartial, in the US.</h3>

Here are reports on how it's "gone down" in Pakistan, since last friday. The excuse given for suspending the constitution there was "terrorism", and interference by the legal system, with the country's "fight on terrorism".

Look who had been targeted for detention...the judges, and the lawyers. Does it seem disturbingly similar to the Bush administration's "prep work", here in the US? It does to me. Why have we even let it get this far? Has Pakistan's dictator given us a sudden peak at our own future?

Quote:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-11-2007_pg1_1
Sunday, November 04, 2007
By Rana Qaisar

ISLAMABAD: Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Pervez Musharraf on Saturday imposed a state of emergency in the country and promulgated a Provisional Constitutional Order (PCO) holding the Constitution in abeyance.

“Chief of Army Staff General Pervez Musharraf has imposed a state of emergency in the country and issued a Provisional Constitutional Order,” an official statement said, without using the word “president” for Gen Musharraf....
....The proclamation of emergency order cited “increasing interference by some members of judiciary” and increasing terrorist attacks as justifications. The imposition of emergency comes as the Supreme Court was hearing a petition challenging Gen Musharraf’s eligibility to contest presidential elections. The government was reportedly expecting an adverse decision in the case, with intelligence reports indicating that most judges on the 11-member bench were likely to rule against the president. The prime minister and his cabinet, and the provincial governors and chief ministers of Punjab, Sindh and Balochistan and their cabinets will remain in place......
Quote:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-11-2007_pg1_7
Friday, November 02, 2007
‘Boycott of judges taking oath under PCO’

LAHORE: The newly elected Supreme Court Bar Association (SCBA) President Chaudhry Aitzaz Ahsan said on Thursday the lawyers’ community has decided to boycott the judges who will take oath under the Provisional Constitution Order (PCO). Aitzaz told Geo news that the proclamation of an emergency in the country would mean the failure of political options for the government, adding that President Pervez Musharraf was shying away from such ground realities. Ahsan, of the Professional Group of Lawyers, led by Hamid Khan, was elected president of the SCBA by a record margin on Sunday. daily times monitor


http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-11-2007_pg1_5
Sunday, November 04, 2007
News analysis: Where do we go from here?

By Najam Sethi

Several points are interesting and significant about last night’s political rupture.

1: We have a state of martial law, whatever the government may say and however long it may last. The Proclamation of Emergency (PE) and the Provisional Constitutional Order (PCO) have been signed by the “Chief of Army Staff”, General Pervez Musharraf, and not by “President” Musharraf or Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz. In fact, a PCO is an extra constitutional deviation and only an army chief can order it.

2: The constitution has accordingly been “held in abeyance”. But significantly, the PCO says that the country will continue to be governed, “as nearly as possible” by the constitution. But where there is any other departure from the constitution apart from what is contained in the PCO and the PE from now onwards, it will be at the behest of the “President” and not the COAS. In other words, General Musharraf’s presidency has been confirmed and upheld by the PCO.

3: The PCO prohibits the courts from holding or issuing any decree against the President, the Prime Minister or anyone exercising powers under their authority. Specifically, the President shall now require a fresh oath under the PCO by those judges who wish to be included in the Federal Shariat Court, High Courts and Supreme Court. In this context, four Supreme Court judges have already taken oath under the PCO from President Musharraf and a new chief justice of Pakistan has been nominated, ie, Justice Hameed Dogar. In other words, Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhry is now to be referred to as a former chief justice of Pakistan. He will be in the company of at least seven other fellow judges who have revolted against the PCO. We should now expect a host of other judges from the four High Courts and possibly Federal Shariat Court to be excluded from the new oath taking ceremonies. If this manoeuvre is accomplished by General Musharraf relatively quickly and the high courts are sufficiently revamped, then we shall have a pro-executive judiciary soon.

5: The PE lists several reasons for its necessity. The prime reason is the state of deteriorating law and order and the vanishing writ of the state owing to acts of terrorism. But the judiciary has been held to be a major culprit in log-jamming the executive and undermining the war against extremism. Indeed, out of 11 effective clauses in the PE, eight refer to the negative role played by the judges and the judiciary in undermining the war against terrorism, the executive functioning of government and the economy. As such, the Supreme Court under Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhry is held critically responsible for harming the national interest and exacerbating the crisis of the state and deadlock of the political system.

7: We should expect the lawyers, civil society groups and most, but not all, the opposition parties to launch a spirited protest on the streets and boycott the courts. But with the electronic media blinded, and the administrations freed from the oversight of the courts, the police and paramilitary forces will be used to arrest opponents and crush the protest movement. Two factors will play a critical role in what happens next: one, the extent to which the lawyers can continue their protest and if necessary sacrifice some dead bodies for their cause; two, the role played by the People’s Party of Ms Bhutto and the JUI of Maulana Fazalur Rehman. We should also expect a surge in terrorist activities and bomb blasts by Taliban and Al Qaeda elements to take advantage of the situation.

9. Writ petitions will fly against the PCO. The new SC will agree to hear them. But no judgment will be forthcoming until such time the elections have been held and a new parliament is in place to indemnify the PCO and confirm President Musharraf as the legitimate president of Pakistan. In other words, the unconstitutionality of this act will probably be pronounced by the new SC after it has got retrospective validity from a new parliament some months hence. The question of whether General Musharraf will remain army chief for another five years or take off his uniform then will have to be settled by the new parliament in 2008 as happened in 2003.


http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...07_pg1_7Monday, November 05, 2007
14 SC judges put under house arrest

ISLAMABAD/LAHORE: <h3>Fourteen Supreme Court (SC) judges, who refused to take oath under the Provisional Constitutional Order (PCO) promulgated by President General Pervez Musharraf on Saturday, have been detained at their residences</h3>, sources in the judiciary told Daily Times.

A senior lawyer claimed that security personnel surrounded the houses of all such judges. Their telephone landlines and mobile phones had also been blocked. Sacked chief justice of Pakistan Iftikhar Chaudhry reportedly had no access to newspapers or television. Security personnel ringed the Lahore home of Supreme Court judge Khalilur Rehman Ramday, who had been hearing challenges to President Musharraf’s October 6 re-election, AFP reported. staff report

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-11-2007_pg1_5
Monday, November 05, 2007
<h2>Crackdown on lawyers, politicians continues</h2>

* Munir Malik, Javed Hashmi and Hameed Gul arrested
* Hundreds of PML-N, PPP, MMA activists arrested across the country

Staff Report

ISLAMABAD/LAHORE/ KARACHI/QUETTA /PESHAWAR: The nationwide crackdown on lawyers, politicians and civil society activists continued on Sunday after the imposition of a state of emergency in the country a day earlier.

Malik, Hashmi, Gul arrested: A senior police official said that former Supreme Court Bar Association (SCBA) president Munir A Malik, Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N) Acting President Javed Hashmi, former Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) chief Hameed Gul, Sindh High Court Bar Association President Abrar Hassan and lawyer Ali Ahmad Kurd had been arrested.

Police also picked up five lawyers from Quetta, who were known as staunch supporters of sacked chief justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry. Lawyers Ijaz Bajwa, Naseer Bhutta, Iftikhar Ali Bhatti, Faiz Rasool, Khalid Hussain, Assad Abbas, Khurram Zaman, Nadeem Akhtar, Sajjad Butt, Rashid Gull, Chaudhry Manzoor Ahmad, Kamran Ashraf, Malik Pervaiz Iqbal, Muhammad Jehangir, Malik Abdur Rehman, Naqi Haider, Zulfiqar Haider Naqi, Naveed Inayat Malik, Muhammad Ashraf, Rasheed Warsi and Rehman Jamil were arrested from Lahore.

Activists arrested: Lahore police arrested some 832 political activists, including PML-N activists and lawyers. The Ravi Police Division arrested 51 activists, Model Town Division arrested 91, Civil Lines Division arrested 103, Kotlakhpat Division arrested 45, Cantonment Division arrested 106, Iqbal Town Division arrested 100, Saddar Division arrested 98 and Mughalpura Division arrested 131 activists.

A PPP official said around 200 of its activists had been arrested in central Punjab, AP reported. These include lawyer Khurshid Khan, who had blackened the face of government counsel Ahmed Raza Qasuri at the Supreme Court. ....
Quote:
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i...67xJPcV4M9gSgA

......The House also voted 404-6 Tuesday to create a national commission to study the causes and the means to prevent homegrown terrorism. The commission is to look into the social, criminal, political, psychological and economic roots of domestic terrorism, said Rep. Jane Harman, D-Calif., sponsor with Rep. David Reichert, R-Wash.

"Free speech, espousing even very radical beliefs, is protected by our Constitution — but violent behavior is not," she said. <h3>"Our plan must be to intervene before a person crosses that line</h3> separating radical views from violent behavior."....

The homegrown terrorism bill is H.R. 1955.


http://public.cq.com/docs/hs/hsnews1...002614411.html
....By a vote of 404 to 6 last week, the House of Representatives passed a bill

(HR 1955) to create a 10-member “National Commission on the Prevention of Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism.”
....But the commission is only the beginning. At the end of its 18-month term, it would cede its work to one of the Homeland Security Department’s university-based Centers of Excellence, according to the bill.
....The Directorate of National Intelligence (DNI), founded in 2004 to harness the work of America’s 16 spy agencies, has also addressed the issue, most recently in its July 2007 National Intelligence Estimate, “The Terrorist Threat to the U.S. Homeland.”

Islamic extremists here bear watching, it said, but those carrying European passports were identified as a more immediate security concern.

The DNI also sponsored a conference of government and outside experts in the summer of 2006 “to tackle the complex issue of what causes individuals and groups to form movements that become radicalized.”

Even the New York Police Department has studied it. Its August report called American prisons, mosques, <h3>universities and the Internet “radicalization incubators” that are “rife with extremist rhetoric.”</h3>

It’s not that Congress has ignored the subject, either.

The Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs is just now wrapping up its investigation of homegrown terrorism, with plans to issue a report in the near future, says Collin’s press secretary Jen Burita. A hearing on “Local Police and Islamic Extremism” is scheduled for Oct. 30.

The legislation also would <h3>direct the Homeland Security Department to work with friendly foreign counterparts and report back on their successes in combating domestic terrorism. ....</h3>

.....Indeed, only two years ago, a senior FBI official testified that “environmental and animal rights activists who have turned to arson and explosives are the nation’s top domestic terrorism threat.”

Ironically, the bill doesn’t actually single out Islamic radicalism as a target, although a reasonable interpretation of the bill leads to that conclusion.

Pressed on that, Reichert said the commission will look at white power groups, neo-Nazis and other extremists, too.

“We don’t want to focus on any one group or leave anybody out,” he said....

....In any event, the staffer said on condition of anonymity, what’s needed is action. Homegrown terrorism has been studied to death.....
<h3>Whoops...at first glance, I thought that the preceding quote box was a Pakistani development, but now I see that it's one of ours....(I wonder how long I have until Rep. Jane Harmon (D-CA & Israel) decides it's time to pre-empt my radical "leanings"?</h3>

A sensible suggestion from John Dean. If the democrats would demand this, and Bush does not attempt to stop the investigation of a special prosecutor, I'd view it as taking one step back from the progression towards getting "Pakistaned", wouldn't you?

Quote:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/057806.php
A Last Thought Before the Senate Judiciary Committee Confirms Judge Mukasey

By John W.
Dean   click to show 


Before the Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee completely cave-in to Bush, at minimum they should demand that Judge Mukasey appoint a special prosecutor to investigate if war crimes have been committed. If Mukasey refuses he should be rejected. This, indeed, should be a pre-condition to anyone filling the post of Attorney General under Bush.....
The U.S. choice to make an unwavering commitment to the regime of a military dictator of a country so important in the described war on terror, even as that war was supposed to be about "bringing democracy", is now even more troubling to me.
Isn't it reasonable to suspect that the current regimes in both Pakistan and in the US pose more immediate and graver threats to the way of life of the inhabitants of both countries, than the "terrorists" do, today?

Last edited by host; 11-05-2007 at 04:52 AM..
host is offline  
Old 11-05-2007, 08:10 AM   #2 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: bedford, tx
Quote:
Originally Posted by host
The U.S. choice to make an unwavering commitment to the regime of a military dictator of a country so important in the described war on terror, even as that war was supposed to be about "bringing democracy", is now even more troubling to me.
Isn't it reasonable to suspect that the current regimes in both Pakistan and in the US pose more immediate and graver threats to the way of life of the inhabitants of both countries, than the "terrorists" do, today?
Host, you go to great lengths to expose the falsehoods and deceits of an administration, which is a great thing and should serve to open the minds up of even the most stubborn sheeple in this country, then blow it all to hell with trying to declare that only the democrats are capable of fixing all of this and getting our 'government' on track.

you squarely place yourself right back in the herd of 'sheeple' by loudly declaring that we should settle for the lesser of two evils (democrats) and are only perpetuating the facade of freedom.

stop that and try to bring about real change instead of choosing freedom based on ignorance over freedom based on lies.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
dksuddeth is offline  
Old 11-05-2007, 09:43 AM   #3 (permalink)
 
roachboy's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
dk: one of the classical questions for those who engage in revolutionary-oriented politics is what to do in the shorter run. so how do you work this problem for yourself?

typically, you have three options:

1. the short run is not my problem.
2. i would vote in the short run for the least of evils.
3. i would vote in the short run for candidates that would make certain situations better, but i assume that the existing order is incapable of really addressing these problems.

the first would mean that you dont participate in elections.
the argument for not participating probably lean on the principles that prompt you to think in more radical terms---the obvious problem is whether refusing to participate means that you neutralize yourself in the short term.
the old trot idea is to vote for the worst candidate under the assumption that by enabling a fuck up to get into power, revolution is brought closer.
but you see how well that idea has played out under george w bush...

the second option is basically the hold-you-nose-and-vote one, and works off the simple reality of the situation--while you wait for something more radical to become possible, you have to live in this situation, and so would participate in it based on calculations as to interest. these interests can be mutually exclusive (e.g. you might really want some kind of libertarian revolution, but in the interim, there are problems with gun control, say)

the third means that you would actively campaign for a candidate (or at least talk that candidate up) in a positive sense (not as the worst of evils)...because the idea of revolution would not be either included or excluded by participating in near-term politics for their own sake.

so how do you work this?

just wondering.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite
roachboy is offline  
Old 11-05-2007, 09:45 AM   #4 (permalink)
Junkie
 
samcol's Avatar
 
Location: Indiana
Quote:
Originally Posted by dksuddeth
Host, you go to great lengths to expose the falsehoods and deceits of an administration, which is a great thing and should serve to open the minds up of even the most stubborn sheeple in this country, then blow it all to hell with trying to declare that only the democrats are capable of fixing all of this and getting our 'government' on track.

you squarely place yourself right back in the herd of 'sheeple' by loudly declaring that we should settle for the lesser of two evils (democrats) and are only perpetuating the facade of freedom.

stop that and try to bring about real change instead of choosing freedom based on ignorance over freedom based on lies.
Yes, same argument as in 04, 06 and now 08. He still doesn't give good reasons to support Democrats. The Democratic congress is still rolling over to everything Bush wants. It's quite sad really.
__________________
It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.
samcol is offline  
Old 11-05-2007, 10:12 AM   #5 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: bedford, tx
roach, shorter run or longer run is really irrelevant considering that the two major parties are like minded, with the exception of a handful of issues. Because these two parties have similar intent, insofar as keeping the status quo on power in the government, it behooves them to totally undermine and shutout any other person for any other office who has the intent to put power back in the hands of the people, i.e. ron paul. By choosing, as you put it, the least of two evils in the short run, you help perpetuate the power hold on two parties who's intent is the same, to push forward major agenda's that keep them in power while handing the occasional bone to it's subjects.

so how do you work that?
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
dksuddeth is offline  
Old 11-05-2007, 10:41 AM   #6 (permalink)
 
roachboy's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
i actually dont have a consistent position on it.

there's a way in which i agree with you that we live under an oligarchy--but from a political position that i think is antithetical to yours.

i come out of a marxist background, theoretically, and the situation of what was once the left, and of the basic elements that mobilized folk politically, is such that i dont have much faith that there'd be a revolutionary movement any time soon that wouldn't be even more problematic than the stasis we currently endure.

so i make my choices about whether and how to participate in election politics on a kind of ad hoc basis.
usually it comes to the second option of the 3 i outlined above.
for example, if the next presidential election emerges from the field of people who now scuttle about the field, it'd definitely be number 2 (this in more than one sense)...

but i wouldn't vote for a libertarian. that is, however, a different discussion. we have been bumping into each other here long enough now that you probably can figure out why without my having to make a long tedious posts about it.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite
roachboy is offline  
Old 11-06-2007, 02:24 AM   #7 (permalink)
Conspiracy Realist
 
Sun Tzu's Avatar
 
Location: The Event Horizon
The manual is not suprising, but does it matter who's next? The Federal Reserve Bank wont be an issue, neither will the dollar.
__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking
Sun Tzu is offline  
Old 11-06-2007, 03:29 AM   #8 (permalink)
Banned
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Tzu
The manual is not suprising, but does it matter who's next? The Federal Reserve Bank wont be an issue, neither will the dollar.
Sun Tzu, perhaps you misunderstood my question, in this thread's title.

I thought that I made it clearer with my last question in the thread OP.

I asked if, in both the US and in Pakistan, if the response to "terrorism" by the two governments, is more disturbing and damaging to the inhabitants of the two countries, than the terrorism, itself.

I fear that the answer to the title question is....<h3>US !!!!</h3>...we're "next".

I cannot exactly describe when oppression of individuals and deprivation of their rights and official criticism and disrespect for the rule of law and freedom of the press becomes "too much", in the name of "fighting terrorism"....but I know it when I see it....and now, I see it.

The difference seems to be, in Pakistan, the leader has the courtesy to announce his oppression/suspension, while here in the US, it's simply happening, via "a thousand cuts":

Quote:
http://www.ap.org/bilalhussein/


THE DETENTION OF AP PHOTOGRAPHER BILAL HUSSEIN

The U.S. military in Iraq has imprisoned Associated Press photographer Bilal Hussein since April 12, 2006, accusing him of being a security threat but never filing charges or permitting a public hearing. "We want the rule of law to prevail," says AP President and CEO Tom Curley. "He either needs to be charged or released. Indefinite detention is not acceptable." Military officials say that Hussein was being held for "imperative reasons of security" under United Nations resolutions. A Pentagon spokesman reiterated that stance Sept. 18. Hussein is a 35-year-old Iraqi citizen and a native of Fallujah. AP executives said an internal review of his work did not find anything to indicate inappropriate contact with insurgents, and any evidence against him should be brought to the Iraqi criminal justice system. Hussein began working for the AP in September 2004. He photographed events in Fallujah and Ramadi until he was detained.

Bilal Hussein is one of an estimated 14,000 people detained by the U.S. military worldwide -- 13,000 of them in Iraq. They are held in limbo where few are ever charged with a specific crime or given a chance before any court or tribunal to argue for their freedom. In Hussein's case, Curley and other AP executives say, the military has not provided any concrete evidence to back up the vague allegations they have raised about him. More information is contained in the news stories and press materials below.



Quote:
http://www.startribune.com/10223/story/1523374.html
StarTribune.com
Ellison presses for answers on cameraman held at Guantanamo

A campaign to free a journalist imprisoned at Guantanamo gained support Thursday from the first Muslim member of Congress, who urged authorities to prosecute or release him after more than five years without charges.

Last update: November 01, 2007 – 7:32 PM
A campaign to free a journalist imprisoned at Guantanamo gained support Thursday from the first Muslim member of Congress, who urged authorities to prosecute or release him after more than five years without charges.

<h3>Sami al-Haj, a Sudanese cameraman for Al Jazeera</h3>, was captured in 2002 as he tried to enter Afghanistan to cover the war. His lawyer says he denies any connection to terrorism and has been on a hunger strike since January to protest his confinement.

In a rare show of public support from a U.S. official, Minnesota Rep. Keith Ellison, a Democrat, called for a hearing to determine whether the military has legitimate reason to hold Al-Haj with about 330 other men at the prison on a Navy base in Cuba. "If he's a bad actor, prove it. If not, let him out," the congressman told the Associated Press.

He said he believes all Guantanamo detainees should be allowed to challenge their confinement in the courts. But he said he is particularly concerned about the detention of a journalist who, as far as he can tell, was "detained for taking pictures."

He made the statement at the request of Al Jazeera. Ellison said he might seek a meeting with military officials or use his seat on the Judiciary Committee to press for more information about Al-Haj's case.
Quote:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwa...rious_matters/
Monday July 16, 2007 06:45 EST
Various matters

(updated below - updated again)

(1) This month's <a href="http://www.cjr.org/cover_story/prisoner_345.php?page=1">cover story</a> in the Columbia Journalism Review is a truly superb account, written by Washington Monthly editor Rachel Morris, of <h3>the plight of Sami al-Haj</h3>, a Sudanese cameraman for Al Jazeera who has been held in Guantanamo for the last five years.

Al-Haj has never been charged with any acts of terrorism against the U.S., which is true for 55 % of Guantanamo's inmates. Instead, the interrogations to which he has been subjected while in captivity have focused almost exclusively on Al Jazeera. As Morris documents, that news outlet has long been viewed as a virtual terrorist organization by the Cheney/Rumsfeld faction inside the administration and their hatred for it is a key part, if not the most important motivating factor, in why al-Haj has been detained:

For his part, Stafford Smith [al-Haj's lawyer] believes that al-Haj "is clearly in Guantanamo for one reason only, and that's because he's an employee of Al Jazeera." According to Stafford Smith, al-Haj has been interrogated approximately 130 times. Roughly 125 of those sessions, he said, dealt not with the allegations but with Al Jazeera's operations.

Stafford Smith told me that military interrogators have repeatedly asked al-Haj to confirm that prominent Al Jazeera journalists are members of terrorist organizations or that Al Jazeera is funded by Al Qaeda. In addition, said Stafford Smith, interrogators offered to release al-Haj if he would spy on the network. Several military and intelligence sources with knowledge of Guantanamo told me that those contentions seem plausible, but they are impossible to confirm.

Morris details that al-Haj has been subjected to the by-now-familiar litany of Guantanamo outrages -- the refusal to allow him to communicate with anyone for years, the vague and shifting accusations based on secret evidence, the severe physical and psychological abuse to which he and his fellow detainees have been subjected, etc. Morris' entire article is chilling and very well-documented, but I want to highlight one vital aspect of it:

Despite the novelty of al-Haj's status as the only journalist inside Guantanamo, it was a long time before he attracted much media attention. At first, even Al Jazeera was reluctant to cover his story.

"Up until around 2003, the air was very tense. You didn't really want to investigate it too much," said Ahmad Ibrahim, an Al Jazeera producer who has researched al-Haj's case. "At least to a lot of people around the world, holding people was probably justifiable due to the enormity of 9/11. And in the Arab world, the situation at Guantanamo was difficult to comprehend or believe, even -- that any kind of torture would be perpetrated by the U.S. A lot of people didn't comprehend what Guantanamo stood for, and the legal arguments that were used to justify it."

In 2005, Ibrahim invited Stafford Smith to Al Jazeera's headquarters in Doha. "That's when the big interest in Sami and his plight started." Since then, al-Haj has become a cause celebre in the Arab world. Ibrahim made a forty-five-minute documentary about him, Prisoner 345, and Al Jazeera regularly reports on his case. Al-Haj has also been featured in several stories in the British press.

But despite repeated efforts by Ibrahim and Stafford Smith, there was until very recently almost no coverage of al-Haj in the U.S., apart from a New York Times column last October by Nicholas Kristof. Al Jazeera "is still perceived in a very negative way" in the U.S., said Joel Campagna of the Committee to Protect Journalists. "I think that has made people pause when looking at this case."

There are numerous critical insights just in that passage alone. In the aftermath of 9/11, large portions of the world, including the Muslim world generally, were so supportive of the U.S. that they were reluctant to challenge even our most extremist detention policies based on the sense that "holding people was probably justifiable due to the enormity of 9/11." Al Jazeera itself seemed almost afraid to challenge the detention, with <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1648988,00.html">good reason</a>. And much of the Muslim world was slow to react to the detention of its journalist <h2>because the notion that the U.S. would just lawlessly detain people indefinitely, let alone systematically torture its detainees, was inconceivable.</h2>

But after several years of the Bush presidency, all of that has changed......

....In his Press Conference the other day, President Bush closed <a href="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/07/20070712-5.html">his remarks</a> with this claim:

And the fundamental question facing the world on this issue is whether or not it makes sense to try to promote an alternative ideology. I happen to think it does. They say, he's idealistic. Yes, I'm idealistic, but I'm also realistic in understanding if there is not an alternative ideology presented, these thugs will be able to continue the recruit. They'll use hopelessness to be able to recruit.

<h3>He is right that we are certainly promoting an "alternative ideology" in the world. But it isn't one that is likely to help us stem the threat of anti-American terrorism, to put it mildly.</h3>

(2) Several weeks ago, I wrote about the <a href="http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/05/08/neocons/">revealing belief</a> of neoconservatives that any neoconservative -- including ones charged with and even convicted of the most serious wrongdoing -- must, by definition, be wrongfully accused. A neoconservative, after all, is so intrinsically good, so devoted to the right cause, that it cannot possibly be fair to punish them. If they are threatened with punishment, then, by definition, there must be some grave injustice.

The examples I used illustrating this mentality included Lewis Libby, Paul Wolfowitz, the AIPAC officials on trial for espionage, and neoconservative financier Conrad Black -- each of whom was charged with various degrees of wrongdoing. Each of them has been vigorously defended as victims of prosecutorial injustice by neoconservatives, who, when neoconservatives are not involved, could not be any more indifferent to the plight of criminal defendants. Quite the contrary, they cheer on every assertion of government power, no matter how unlimited and unchecked.

Just like Libby, Black last week was <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6897991.stm">found guilty</a> in a federal court, after having been indicted and prosecuted by the Bush Justice Department, of multiple felonies. Already, neoconservatives like Mark Steyn are <a href="http://forums.macleans.ca/advansis/?mod=for&act=dis&eid=52&so=&ps=&sb=">busy smearing</a> everyone in sight -- the stupid jury, the unfair judge, the out-of-control federal prosecutor. One of Black's (and Libby's) most fervent defenders, David Frum, is on vacation, though we will undoubtedly hear from him soon about all the grave injustices which have befallen his neoconservative comrade.

When a neoconservative is accused of wrongdoing, even by the Republican government that they run, every theory is on the table, except for the possibility that they actually did something wrong. Anyone devoted to the neoconservative agenda (including the President) by definition <h3>cannot be guilty, and the greatest injustice of all is when they are held accountable for their actions under the law. After all, they have an Epic War of Civilizations to fight against the Supervillainous Evil Islamic Fascists.</h3> What's a little stockholder fraud and obstruction of justice -- or illegal eavesdropping -- when we're talking about our Greatest Civilization Warriors?
If you think that it "can't happen here"....it is. If the Associated Press, a US based, worldwide news agency must experience and endure, for 19 months, the US detention of it's Pulitzer prize winning photographer in Iraq, without criminal charges or a hearing, don't you yet think that these motherfuckers are bold enough, and anti-American (as in anti "the republic for which it stands") to detain you or someone who you care about, whenever it strikes them to do so, for as long as they decide to? They've persuaded me that there is a real risk that they will, and that they won't announce that they're doing it.

Last edited by host; 11-06-2007 at 03:45 AM..
host is offline  
Old 11-06-2007, 03:51 AM   #9 (permalink)
Conspiracy Realist
 
Sun Tzu's Avatar
 
Location: The Event Horizon
DO you know what happened with the 2 proposals to abolish the 22nd amendment?

“Stop throwing the Constitution in my face, It’s just a goddamned piece of paper!”-- George Bush
__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking
Sun Tzu is offline  
Old 11-08-2007, 03:10 AM   #10 (permalink)
Banned
 
On another thread, I posted about the astounding and disturbing situation of an Associated Press photographer, a winner of the Pulitzer prize for his work, who has been detained in Iraq (he is an Iraqi....) by the US military without being charged or allowed a hearing.....and the AP, the biggest US news media pool, has been vocal in demanding justice for the photographer, and they've gotten no results:
Quote:
http://www.ap.org/bilalhussein/
THE DETENTION OF AP PHOTOGRAPHER BILAL HUSSEIN

The U.S. military in Iraq has imprisoned Associated Press photographer Bilal Hussein since April 12, 2006, accusing him of being a security threat but never filing charges or permitting a public hearing. "We want the rule of law to prevail," says AP President and CEO Tom Curley. "He either needs to be charged or released. Indefinite detention is not acceptable." Military officials say that Hussein was being held for "imperative reasons of security" under United Nations resolutions. A Pentagon spokesman reiterated that stance Sept. 18. Hussein is a 35-year-old Iraqi citizen and a native of Fallujah. AP executives said an internal review of his work did not find anything to indicate inappropriate contact with insurgents, and any evidence against him should be brought to the Iraqi criminal justice system. Hussein began working for the AP in September 2004. He photographed events in Fallujah and Ramadi until he was detained.

Bilal Hussein is one of an estimated 14,000 people detained by the U.S. military worldwide -- 13,000 of them in Iraq. They are held in limbo where few are ever charged with a specific crime or given a chance before any court or tribunal to argue for their freedom. In Hussein's case, Curley and other AP executives say, the military has not provided any concrete evidence to back up the vague allegations they have raised about him. More information is contained in the news stories and press materials below.

>> Bilal Hussein Detained
10/15/2007 Media group reports more attacks on free expression in the Americas.....
Now...we're not talking about the AP being unable to get their guy released, we're talking about them, despite their connections and ability to generate a huge amount of worldwide publiciity in protest, as in the example above, on one of their web pages, but about being unable to even pressure the US military to explain what the man has done to deserve indefinite detention, let alone the next customary step, a reading of the charges against him, and a hearing before a military or a civilian court.

If I had to point to a single example of how vulnerable any of us are, it would be the example of the AP receiving a total brush off by our government, concerning the status of one of their own, after 18 months of captivity.

I'm asking again, who is next? Is it not possible for them to come for you, or to treat us to a scenario similar to what hs happened in Pakistan?

This is a politics forum. Why is there more discussion and concern on an Amazon.com book review page, to the trend we are witnessing of abridging our rights and spying on us....than there is on this forum?

<h3>Untraceable US government cash for an effing dictator?</h3>
Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews
Rice Says U.S. Will Review Aid To Pakistan
Portion Funds Effort Against Terrorism

By Karen DeYoung
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, November 5, 2007; Page A15

JERUSALEM, Nov. 4 -- Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Sunday that the United States would review its $150 million-a-month assistance program to Pakistan in response to the declaration of emergency rule by the president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf.

Any reassessment will have to keep in mind that "some of the assistance that has been going to Pakistan is directly related to the counterterrorism mission," Rice said. "I would be very surprised if anybody wants the president to ignore or set aside our concerns about terrorism. . . . But obviously the situation has changed and we have to review where we are." ......


http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004658.php

<h3>U.S. Aid to Musharraf is Largely Untraceable Cash Transfers</h3>
By Spencer Ackerman - November 7, 2007, 5:05PM

After Pervez Musharraf declared martial law this weekend, Condoleezza Rice vowed to review U.S. assistance to Pakistan, one of the largest foreign recipients of American aid. Musharraf, of course, has been a crucial American ally since the start of the Afghanistan war in 2001, and the U.S. has rewarded him ever since with over $10 billion in civilian and (mostly) military largesse. But, perhaps unsure whether Musharraf's days might in fact be numbered, Rice <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/04/AR2007110400463.html?hpid=topnews">contended</a> that the explosion of money to Islamabad over the past seven years was "not to Musharraf, but to a Pakistan you could argue was making significant strides on a number of fronts."

In fact, however, a considerable amount of the money the U.S. gives to Pakistan is administered not through U.S. agencies or joint U.S.-Pakistani programs. Instead, the U.S. gives Musharraf's government about $200 million annually and his military $100 million monthly in the form of direct cash transfers. Once that money leaves the U.S. Treasury, Musharraf can do with it whatever
he wants   click to show 
Some Americans are concerned, and are speaking out. Why does this forum seem to be asleep?

<h3>31 of 42 reviewers gave the new book, "
The End of America: Letter of Warning To A Young Patriot ", a 5 star rating.</h3> There were only 6 reviews below 3 stars, they are available on the last page, and they make similar points that there is "nothing to see here, move along folks, etc."

Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: The End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: The End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot

This is an excerpt from the new book by Naomi Wolf:
Quote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html

.....history shows there are certain steps that any would-be dictator must take to destroy constitutional freedoms. And, argues Naomi Wolf, George Bush and his administration seem to be taking them all

Tuesday April 24, 2007......

....What if the publisher of a major US newspaper were charged with treason or espionage, as a rightwing effort seemed to threaten Keller with last year? What if he or she got 10 years in jail? What would the newspapers look like the next day? Judging from history, they would not cease publishing; but they would suddenly be very polite.

Right now, only a handful of patriots are trying to hold back the tide of tyranny for the rest of us - staff at the Center for Constitutional Rights, who faced death threats for representing the detainees yet persisted all the way to the Supreme Court; activists at the American Civil Liberties Union; and prominent conservatives trying to roll back the corrosive new laws, under the banner of a new group called the American Freedom Agenda. This small, disparate collection of people needs everybody's help, including that of Europeans and others internationally who are willing to put pressure on the administration because they can see what a US unrestrained by real democracy at home can mean for the rest of the world.

We need to look at history and face the "what ifs". For if we keep going down this road, the "end of America" could come for each of us in a different way, at a different moment; each of us might have a different moment when we feel forced to look back and think: that is how it was before - and this is the way it is now.

"The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands ... is the definition of tyranny," wrote James Madison. We still have the choice to stop going down this road; we can stand our ground and fight for our nation, and take up the banner the founders asked us to carry.

· Naomi Wolf's The End of America: A Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot will be published by Chelsea Green in September.
Quote:
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004656.php#more
Today's Must Read
By Spencer Ackerman - November 7, 2007, 9:14AM

Cliche as it may be to say: Mr. Klein goes to Washington.

Tomorrow the Senate Judiciary Committee will get its hands on the surveillance bill passed by the intelligence committee last month. The bill blesses warrantless surveillance of foreign-domestic communications related to gathering foreign intelligence, but its most infamous provision is the legal immunity it seeks to grant telecommunications companies that complied with the Bush administration's warrantless surveillance program from 2001 until this January. Civil libertarians are enraged at the provision, which will invalidate a number of class-action lawsuits against the telecoms currently pending. Now they have a new lobbying ally: Mark Klein.

Klein is the retired AT&T technician who disclosed in late 2005 how his former employer had allowed the NSA to use Room 641A of 611 Folsom Street in San Francisco as a vacuum cleaner to capture untold millions of phone and e-mail communications. (You can read his first-hand account here, in a pdf.) His revelations formed the basis for a lawsuit, Hepting v. AT&T, currently before a federal court. Now he's trying to convince Senators not to preempt the case, reports The Washington Post.

The plain-spoken, bespectacled Klein, 62, said he may be the only person in the country in a position to discuss firsthand knowledge of an important aspect of the Bush administration's domestic surveillance program. He is retired, so he isn't worried about losing his job. He did not have security clearance, and the documents in his possession were not classified, he said. He has no qualms about "turning in," as he put it, the company where he worked for 22 years until he retired
in 2004   click to show 


"I flipped out," he said. "They're copying the whole Internet. There's no selection going on here. Maybe they select out later, but at the point of handoff to the government, they get everything."

Tomorrow we'll see whether the Judiciary Committee, which has been more confrontational over surveillance issues than the intelligence committee has, flips out as well -- or whether Klein is in Washington for nothing.


FRONTLINE: spying on the home front: interviews: mark klein | PBS
Mark Klein. HIGHLIGHTS; A visit from the NSA; The only time he was inside the secret room; Finding documents that confirmed his suspicions ...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ews/klein.html - 49k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

Whistleblower Mark Klein . NOW | PBS
Mark Klein alleges that AT&T cooperated with the National Security Agency in 2003 to install equipment capable of eavesdropping on the public's e-mail ...
www.pbs.org/now/shows/307/mark-klein.html
Our government tortures people, and we have a well known, 3 star general, seeming to violate military regulations, by publicly endorsing such a practice:

Quote:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/hor...nduty_gene.php
Senior Active-Duty General Says Positive Things About Waterboarding; Will Media Demand Clarification?
November 5, 2007

<a href="http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/search/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003667944">Via</a> Editor and Publisher, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution has published a <a href="http://www.ajc.com/search/content/news/stories/2007/11/02/Honore_1103.html">surprising interview</a> with three-star Army General Russel Honore in which he responds to questions about waterboarding by saying that "we've got an obligation to do what the hell we've got to do to make sure we get the mission done."

Some of you may have heard Honore's name before. That's because he was widely lauded by the media in 2005 after he took control of the government's sluggish response to Gulf Coast residents after Hurricane Katrina. He's a high-profile military figure.

Should a highly-visible active-duty Army general really be saying anything that even approaches an endorsement of waterboarding? This technique is against Army regulations. The Army field manual on interrogations, which was revised in 2006, explicitly says that waterboarding is forbidden. Indeed, according to Spencer Ackerman, who is TPM's resident expert on such matters, if a soldier or an officer is found to have used an interrogation technique outside the field manual, he or she will have an appointment with a court martial board.

But here's what General Honore has to say about waterboarding in his interview with AJC:

"I don't know much about it, but I know we're dealing with terrorists who do some very awful things to people," he said after Friday morning's speech to about 900 students at Flat Rock Middle School in Tyrone. "I know enough about [waterboarding] that the intent is not to kill anybody. We know that terrorists that we deal with, they have no law that they abide by. They have no code, they kill indiscriminately, like they did on 9/11."

And this:

Honore, however, said the military will always remain within the limits of the law, but warned that stiffer interrogation methods may sometimes be necessary in the war on terror.

"If we picked up a prisoner that could tell us where the next 9/11 plot was, we could sit there and treat him nice, and that may not work," he said. "We could sit there and give him water and we could be politically correct.

"But if we have to use sources and methods that get information that not only save American lives, but save other people's lives or could prevent a major catastrophe from happening, I think the American people can decide [whether to allow waterboarding]."

Then came something that sounded very close to an endorsement of the technique:

"As long as we're responsible for hunting those SOBs down, finding them and preventing them from killing our sons and daughters," Honore said, "I think we've got an obligation to do what the hell we've got to do to make sure we get the mission done."

<h3>So a high-profile active-duty U.S. Army general is basically giving a thumbs-up of sorts to a technique that the U.S. Army's own interrogation manual -- which was revised specifically to prevent future abuses similar to Abu Ghraib -- says is forbidden. One that is internationally regarded as a war crime.</h3>

That seems like it should be a story. Is any enterprising reporter gonna call up General Honore and seek clarification of his views?

Any takers?
Quote:
http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline...ink-an-an.html
Today's video: Footage of a person being 'waterboarded'

.....Update at 12:59 p.m. ET: The Justice Department official who decided what techniques interrogators were allowed to use was waterboarded at a U.S. military base in 2004 and later urged the White House to strictly control the use of this tactic, according to ABC News.

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004659.php
Ex-Navy Instructor Promises to Hit Back If Attacked on Torture
By Spencer Ackerman - November 7, 2007, 2:11PM

Malcolm Nance, good-spirited though he is, is a pugnacious guy. Nearly 20 years' service in the Navy, including time instructing would-be Navy SEALs how to resist and survive torture if captured. Intelligence and counterterrorism expert. Several years in Iraq as a security contractor. So don't expect him to suffer in silence if his credibility is attacked during testimony to a House panel tomorrow about his personal experiences with waterboarding.

"God forbid if there's even the slightest hint about my credentials," Nance says over tea in a Washington coffee shop. "You will see a spectacle on C-Span. I'll impugn [my attacker's] credibility in public. Let's see him give 20 years in the military, give up his family life, and then he can come talk. If not, shut the hell up."

Nance has become newly controversial for writing on the counterinsurgency/counterterrorism blog Small Wars Journal <h3>about his experiences teaching waterboarding for the Navy's Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape (SERE) program......</h3>


http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/200...terstitialskip

« 31 October SWJ Op-Ed Roundup | Main | Gen. Casey on A Failure in Generalship »
Waterboarding is Torture… Period (Links Updated # 9)

<h3>Posted by Malcolm Nance</h3> on October 31, 2007 2:30 PM |

I’d like to digress from my usual analysis of insurgent strategy and tactics to speak out on an issue of grave importance to Small Wars Journal readers. We, as a nation, are having a crisis of honor.

Last week the Attorney General nominee Judge Michael Mukasey refused to define waterboarding terror suspects as torture. On the same
day   click to show 


There is No Debate Except for Torture Apologists

<h3>1. Waterboarding is a torture technique. Period.</h3> There is no way to gloss over it or sugarcoat it. It has no justification outside of its limited role as a training demonstrator. Our service members have to learn that the will to survive requires them accept and understand that they may be subjected to torture, but that America is better than its enemies and it is one’s duty to trust in your nation and God, endure the hardships and return home with honor.

2. Waterboarding is not a simulation. Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word.

Waterboarding is a controlled drowning that, in the American model, occurs under the watch of a doctor, a psychologist, an interrogator and a trained strap-in/strap-out team. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning. How much the victim is to drown depends on the desired result (in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim’s face) and the obstinacy of the subject. A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs which show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience, to horrific suffocating punishment to the final death spiral.

Waterboarding is slow motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of black out and expiration –usually the person goes into hysterics on the board. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch and if it goes wrong, it can lead straight to terminal hypoxia. When done right it is controlled death. Its lack of physical scarring allows the victim to recover and be threaten with its use again and again.

Call it “Chinese Water Torture,” “the Barrel,” or “the Waterfall,” it is all the same. Whether the victim is allowed to comply or not is usually left up to the interrogator. Many waterboard team members, even in training, enjoy the sadistic power of making the victim suffer and often ask questions as an after thought. These people are dangerous and predictable and when left unshackled, unsupervised or undetected they bring us the murderous abuses seen at Abu Ghraieb, Baghram and Guantanamo. No doubt, to avoid human factors like fear and guilt someone has created a one-button version that probably looks like an MRI machine with high intensity waterjets.

<h3>3. If you support the use of waterboarding on enemy captives, you support the use of that torture on any future American captives. The Small Wars Council had a spirited discussion about this earlier in the year, especially when former Marine Generals Krulak and Hoar rejected all arguments for torture.
</h3>
Evan Wallach wrote a brilliant history of the use of waterboarding as a war crime and the open acceptance of it by the administration in an article for Columbia Journal for Transnational Law. In it he describes how the ideological Justice Department lawyer, John Yoo validated the current dilemma we find ourselves in by asserting that the President had powers above and beyond the Constitution and the Congress:

“Congress doesn’t have the power to tie the President’s hands in regard to torture as an interrogation technique....It’s the core of the Commander-in-Chief function. They can’t prevent the President from ordering torture.”

<h3>That is an astounding assertion. It reflects a basic disregard for the law of the United States, the Constitution and basic moral decency.</h3>

Another MSNBC commentator defended the administration and stated that waterboarding is "not a new phenomenon" and that it had "been pinned on President Bush … but this has been part of interrogation for years and years and years." He is correct, but only partially. The Washington Post reported in 2006 that it was mainly America’s enemies that used it as a principal interrogation method. After World War 2, Japanese waterboard team members were tried for war crimes. In Vietnam, service members were placed under investigation when a photo of a field-expedient waterboarding became publicly known.

Torture in captivity simulation training reveals there are ways an enemy can inflict punishment which will render the subject wholly helpless and which will generally overcome his willpower. The torturer will trigger within the subject a survival instinct, in this case the ability to breathe, which makes the victim instantly pliable and ready to comply. It is purely and simply a tool by which to deprive a human being of his ability to resist through physical humiliation. The very concept of an American Torturer is an anathema to our values.

I concur strongly with the opinions of professional interrogators like Colonel Stewart Herrington, and victims of torture like Senator John McCain. If you want consistent, accurate and reliable intelligence, be inquisitive, analytical, patient but most of all professional, amiable and compassionate.

Who will complain about the new world-wide embrace of torture? America has justified it legally at the highest levels of government. Even worse, the administration has selectively leaked supposed successes of the water board such as the alleged Khalid Sheik Mohammed confessions. However, in the same breath the CIA sources for the Washington Post noted that in Mohammed’s case they got information but "not all of it reliable." Of course, when you waterboard you get all the magic answers you want -because remember, the subject will talk. They all talk! Anyone strapped down will say anything, absolutely anything to get the torture to stop. Torture. Does. Not. Work.

According to the President, this is not a torture, so future torturers in other countries now have an American legal basis to perform the acts. Every hostile intelligence agency and terrorist in the world will consider it a viable tool, which can be used with impunity. It has been turned into perfectly acceptable behavior for information finding.

A torture victim can be made to say anything by an evil nation that does not abide by humanity, morality, treaties or rule of law. Today we are on the verge of becoming that nation. Is it possible that September 11 hurt us so much that we have decided to gladly adopt the tools of KGB, the Khmer Rouge, the Nazi Gestapo, the North Vietnamese, the North Koreans and the Burmese junta?

Read the rest: http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/200...terstitialskip

Last edited by host; 11-08-2007 at 03:18 AM..
host is offline  
Old 11-23-2007, 01:49 PM   #11 (permalink)
Banned
 
If it is not 19-effing-84, now...then what makes it different from Orwell's prescient novel?

Cellphone Tracking Powers on Request
Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...201444_pf.html
Secret Warrants Granted Without Probable Cause

By Ellen Nakashima
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, November 23, 2007; A01

Federal officials are routinely asking courts to order cellphone companies to furnish real-time tracking data so they can pinpoint the whereabouts of drug traffickers, fugitives and other criminal suspects, according to judges and industry lawyers.

In some cases, judges have granted the requests without requiring the government to demonstrate that there is probable cause to believe that a crime is taking place or that the inquiry will yield evidence of a crime. Privacy advocates fear such a practice may expose average Americans to a new level of government scrutiny of their daily lives.

<h3>Such requests run counter to the Justice Department's internal recommendation that federal prosecutors seek warrants based on probable cause to obtain precise location data in private areas. The requests and orders are sealed at the government's request, so it is difficult to know how often the orders are issued or denied.

The issue is taking on greater relevance as wireless carriers are racing to offer sleek services that allow cellphone users to know with the touch of a button where their friends or families are.</h3> The companies are hoping to recoup investments they have made to meet a federal mandate to provide enhanced 911 (E911) location tracking. Sprint Nextel, for instance, boasts that its "loopt" service even sends an alert when a friend is near, "putting an end to missed connections in the mall, at the movies or around town."

With Verizon's Chaperone service, parents can set up a "geofence" around, say, a few city blocks and receive an automatic text message if their child, holding the cellphone, travels outside that area.

"Most people don't realize it, but they're carrying a tracking device in their pocket," said Kevin Bankston of the privacy advocacy group Electronic Frontier Foundation. "Cellphones can reveal very precise information about your location, and yet legal protections are very much up in the air."

In a stinging opinion this month, a federal judge in Texas denied a request by a Drug Enforcement Administration agent for data that would identify a drug trafficker's phone location by using the carrier's E911 tracking capability. E911 tracking systems read signals sent to satellites from a phone's Global Positioning System (GPS) chip or triangulated radio signals sent from phones to cell towers. Magistrate Judge Brian L. Owsley, of the Corpus Christi division of the Southern District of Texas, said the agent's affidavit failed to focus on "specifics necessary to establish probable cause, such as relevant dates, names and places."

Owsley decided to publish his opinion, which explained that the agent failed to provide "sufficient specific information to support the assertion" that the phone was being used in "criminal" activity. Instead, Owsley wrote, the agent simply alleged that the subject trafficked in narcotics and used the phone to do so. The agent stated that the DEA had " 'identified' or 'determined' certain matters," Owsley wrote, but "these identifications, determinations or revelations are not facts, but simply conclusions by the agency."

Instead of seeking warrants based on probable cause, some federal prosecutors are applying for orders based on a standard lower than probable cause derived from two statutes: the Stored Communications Act and the Pen Register Statute, according to judges and industry lawyers. The orders are typically issued by magistrate judges in U.S. district courts, who often handle applications for search warrants.

In one case last month in a southwestern state, an FBI agent obtained precise location data with a court order based on the lower standard, citing "specific and articulable facts" showing reasonable grounds to believe the data are "relevant to an ongoing criminal investigation," said Al Gidari, a partner at Perkins Coie in Seattle, who reviews data requests for carriers.

Another magistrate judge, who has denied about a dozen such requests in the past six months, said some agents attach affidavits to their applications that merely assert that the evidence offered is "consistent with the probable cause standard" of Rule 41 of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure. The judge spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

"Law enforcement routinely now requests carriers to continuously 'ping' wireless devices of suspects to locate them when a call is not being made . . . so law enforcement can triangulate the precise location of a device and [seek] the location of all associates communicating with a target," wrote Christopher Guttman-McCabe, vice president of regulatory affairs for CTIA -- the Wireless Association, in a July comment to the Federal Communications Commission. He said the "lack of a consistent legal standard for tracking a user's location has made it difficult for carriers to comply" with law enforcement agencies' demands.

Gidari, who also represents CTIA, said he has never seen such a request that was based on probable cause.

Justice Department spokesman Dean Boyd said field attorneys should follow the department's policy. "We strongly recommend that prosecutors in the field obtain a warrant based on probable cause" to get location data "in a private area not accessible to the public," he said. "When we become aware of situations where this has not occurred, we contact the field office and discuss the matter."

The phone data can home in on a target to within about 30 feet, experts said.

Federal agents used exact real-time data in October 2006 to track a serial killer in Florida who was linked to at least six murders in four states, including that of a University of Virginia graduate student, whose body was found along the Blue Ridge Parkway. The killer died in a police shooting in Florida as he was attempting to flee.

"Law enforcement has absolutely no interest in tracking the locations of law-abiding citizens. None whatsoever," Boyd said. "What we're doing is going through the courts to lawfully obtain data that will help us locate criminal targets, sometimes in cases where lives are literally hanging in the balance, such as a child abduction or serial murderer on the loose."

In many cases, orders are being issued for cell-tower site data, which are less precise than the data derived from E911 signals. While the E911 technology could possibly tell officers what building a suspect was in, cell-tower site data give an area that could range from about three to 300 square miles.

Since 2005, federal magistrate judges in at least 17 cases have denied federal requests for the less-precise cellphone tracking data absent a demonstration of probable cause that a crime is being committed. Some went out of their way to issue published opinions in these otherwise sealed cases.

"Permitting surreptitious conversion of a cellphone into a tracking device without probable cause raises serious Fourth Amendment concerns especially when the phone is in a house or other place where privacy is reasonably expected," said Judge Stephen William Smith of the Southern District of Texas, whose 2005 opinion on the matter was among the first published.

But judges in a majority of districts have ruled otherwise on this issue, Boyd said. Shortly after Smith issued his decision, a magistrate judge in the same district approved a federal request for cell-tower data without requiring probable cause. And in December 2005, Magistrate Judge Gabriel W. Gorenstein of the Southern District of New York, approving a request for cell-site data, wrote that because the government did not install the "tracking device" and the user chose to carry the phone and permit transmission of its information to a carrier, no warrant was needed.

These judges are issuing orders based on the lower standard, requiring a showing of "specific and articulable facts" showing reasonable grounds to believe the data will be "relevant and material" to a criminal investigation.

Boyd said the government believes this standard is sufficient for cell-site data. "This type of location information, which even in the best case only narrows a suspect's location to an area of several city blocks, is routinely generated, used and retained by wireless carriers in the normal course of business," he said.

The trend's secrecy is troubling, privacy advocates said. No government body tracks the number of cellphone location orders sought or obtained. Congressional oversight in this area is lacking, they said. And precise location data will be easier to get if the Federal Communication Commission adopts a Justice Department proposal to make the most detailed GPS data available automatically.

Often, Gidari said, federal agents tell a carrier they need real-time tracking data in an emergency but fail to follow up with the required court approval. Justice Department officials said to the best of their knowledge, agents are obtaining court approval unless the carriersprovide the data voluntarily.

To guard against abuse, Congress should require comprehensive reporting to the court and to Congress about how and how often the emergency authority is used, said John Morris, senior counsel for the Center for Democracy and Technology.
...and:
Quote:
http://www.courierpostonline.com/app.../1003/business
Sunday, October 28, 2007

By TOM KRISHER
Associated Press
DETROIT

.....Starting with about 20 models for 2009, the service will be able to slowly halt a car that is reported stolen, and the radio may even speak up and tell the thief to pull over because police are watching.

OnStar already finds 700 to 800 cars per month using the global positioning system. With the new technology, which OnStar President Chet Huber said GM will apply to the rest of its lineup in future years, OnStar would call police and tell them a stolen car's whereabouts.

Then, if officers see the car in motion and judge it can be stopped safely, they can tell OnStar operators, who will send the car a signal via cell phone to slow it to a halt.

"This technology will basically remove the control of the horsepower from the thief," Huber said. "Everything else in the vehicle works. The steering works. The brakes work."

GM is still exploring the possibility of having the car give a recorded verbal warning before it stops moving. A voice would tell the driver through the radio speakers that police will stop the car, Huber said, and the car's emergency flashers would go on.

"If the thief does nothing else it will coast to a stop. But they can drive off to the side of the road," Huber said.

With the current version of OnStar, drivers can call operators for emergency help, and OnStar operators will contact a car if its sensors detect a crash. The service has about 5 million subscribers.....
Oops! i forgot that some of you believe that, "if you're doing "nothing wrong", you've got nothing to worry about:.

If you believe that, you are also required to believe that authorities have no influence to or motive for controlling political or ideologicial opponents, and that they possess divine ability to discern, on their own, without a warrant signed by a judge, to determine who is "doing nothing wrong".....
host is offline  
Old 11-23-2007, 06:08 PM   #12 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
Ustwo's Avatar
 
And then they came for the dentists, and there was no one left to speak out for me.

I think the amazing thing, that an administration so Machiavellian at silencing their opponents can be doing so badly in the polls.

If they are evil, obviously they are doing it wrong.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.
Ustwo is offline  
Old 11-23-2007, 07:35 PM   #13 (permalink)
Getting it.
 
Charlatan's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
Why is there silence here?

It isn't because people aren't interested. It isn't because people aren't in general agreement.

It's simply because people (beyond the very few who still post here) don't like getting brow beaten by your posts. They don't like wading through diatribe after diatribe.

As I have said elsewhere, if your goal is to change people's minds. If your goal is to have any influence on how they think about this issue about which you are passionate (and thing they too should be passionate about)... you are failing.

It's time to take a different approach.
__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke
Charlatan is offline  
Old 11-23-2007, 10:15 PM   #14 (permalink)
Banned
 
My posts are the antithesis of posts like this example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
And then they came for the dentists, and there was no one left to speak out for me.

I think the amazing thing, that an administration so Machiavellian at silencing their opponents can be doing so badly in the polls.

If they are evil, obviously they are doing it wrong.
This is a politics forum. I am attempting to exchange political opinions, observations, and the information that influences them.

I think that I am doing that. Others are not. Am I failing or are they failing?
host is offline  
Old 11-23-2007, 10:37 PM   #15 (permalink)
Lennonite Priest
 
pan6467's Avatar
 
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
What amazes me about all this is most here are quick to disect what you say and argue or throw facts around and talk about how bad things are, but not many really offer solutions.

It's easy to be negative and pass negativity, it's easy to yell and shout and not offer solutions or truly think.

But the truly hard part is to recognize the problem, talk about it and offer solutions and debate over those solutions.

I'd like to see more of that, not just spewing of articles and having the classic... "Yes it is" "No it isn't" "Dems pinko commies destroy economy" "GOP just evil non caring wanna be world dominators." Seems that's all the threads in this forum digress into.

No thought in the posts, just let's bash people.
__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"
pan6467 is offline  
Old 11-24-2007, 08:14 AM   #16 (permalink)
Getting it.
 
Charlatan's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
Quote:
Originally Posted by host
My posts are the antithesis of posts like this example:

This is a politics forum. I am attempting to exchange political opinions, observations, and the information that influences them.

I think that I am doing that. Others are not. Am I failing or are they failing?
Host, when you post as you do, you leave very little room for response. From what I can see you are not looking to exchange anything. You are looking to pontificate.

I would argue that your post and Ustwo's only differ in that his is funny. They are both part of the problem (for different reasons).

I will say it again. If your purpose is to change opinions you are not achieving that goal. You have probably done more to push people away from the Politics Forum than anyone else. I will say that again just so it's clear, You have probably done more to push people away from the Politics Forum than anyone else.

If you are honestly looking to be a force for change and wish to point out what you think is wrong with the current admin, you are failing. You know what you are talking about. You have done the research that few of us have the time to do. You are a fount of obscured knowledge.

And you find yourself lamenting that nobody is discussing these things.

Stop beating your head against the wall. What you are doing isn't working. Try another approach.
__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke
Charlatan is offline  
Old 11-25-2007, 05:10 PM   #17 (permalink)
Banned
 
Charlatan, you live in Canada, and I am assuming that you have not had the experience of living among so many, who out of partisan indifference or an uninformed and/or incurious nature, were "just fine" with this:

Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004Jun9.html
A Day of Ritual and Remembrance
Reagan Saluted From California To the Capital

By David Von Drehle
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, June 10, 2004; Page A01

...."Ronald Reagan was more than just a historical figure. He was a providential man who came along just when our nation, and our world, needed him," said Vice President Cheney beside the light-bathed and flag-draped coffin.

"Fellow Americans, here lies a graceful and a gallant man."

So began Washington's first state funeral in more than 30 years, on a day steeped in tradition but also unnervingly 21st century. Just hours before Reagan's body reached the Capitol, the building was evacuated in a panic amid reports that an unidentified aircraft was closing in. The plane turned out to be a private craft carrying Kentucky Gov. Ernie Fletcher (R) that had briefly lost contact with ground controllers.

Virtually every police officer in Washington was on duty and at high alert; bomb-sniffing dogs inspected flag-decked light poles; the federal government declared a "National Special Security Event," which Attorney General John D. Ashcroft declared "a sad commentary . . . [on] modern life in Washington."

The public commemoration of the man whose conservative politics and infectious optimism transformed American public life will continue through tomorrow's funeral at Washington National Cathedral. More than 20 heads of state, past and present, planned to attend -- the largest gathering of dignitaries the city has seen in at least five years. British Prime Minister Tony Blair and former prime minister Margaret Thatcher, German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi and Britain's Prince Charles have accepted invitations.

Lech Walesa, the former Polish leader whose anti-communist Solidarity movement thrilled Reagan during the last years of the Soviet empire, will attend, as will the last premier of the Soviet Union that Reagan so long and stoutly opposed, Mikhail Gorbachev....
Bearing the above in mind, and considering the actual "career", accomplishments, and "endearing principles" of the "revered one", consider the talent, vision, and contribution of this man:

Quote:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...5026-1,00.html
Master Planner
Monday, Oct. 17, 1960

<img src="http://www.alumni.berkeley.edu/imgs/Alumni/California_Monthly/2004_Feb/kerr_time.jpg">


...What happens when the vast generation of war babies (now 15-19 years old) really hits the public campuses? Nobody has spent more hours seeking precise answers than Clark Kerr, president of the mammoth, seven-campus* University of California (47,895 students), the largest college complex in the U.S. Few states are growing faster than California: whether by birth or by migration, the population increases by one a minute. Each year California's growth matches the size of San Diego. Each day it needs one new school. Already it has the nation's biggest public school system (3,300,000). Already it has the nation's highest number of Collegians (234,000 fulltime), and 80% of them are on public campuses.....

http://www.alumni.berkeley.edu/Alumn...ng_Mr_Kerr.asp

....The New York Times wrote that, as Berkeley chancellor and UC president in the 1950s and 1960s, Kerr “created the blueprint for public higher education in the United States.” “There isn’t anyone who had as large a role in higher education as Clark Kerr did in the post-World War II 20th century,” summed up Arthur Levine, president of Teachers College at Columbia University. Berkeley Chancellor Robert Berdahl said that Kerr was, “without question, a legend in higher education.”.......
<h3>Versus the man who launched his political career by targeting Clark Kerr:</h3>
Quote:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...6/09/MNCF3.DTL

counter argument to above article: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...18/ai_90041180

<h3>and aiding in the destruction of this man, as a part of "the process":</h3>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Savio


http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC/pacificaviet.html#1969
April-May 1969 On April 18, the underground paper The Berkeley Barb runs an announcement calling for interested individuals to bring building materials to a university-owned vacant lot near Haste Street and Telegraph Avenue in order to build a community park. A large crowd assembles to create "People's Park".

In early May, UC Berkeley administrators decide to reclaim the land, and on May 15, 250 Berkeley police and California Highway Patrol officers are called in to enforce this edict. The park is bulldozed, and a large chain-link fence is erected. As construction the fence began, a crowd of 6000 moved towards the park after rallying at nearby Sproul Plaza. Police fired tear gas at the approaching crowd. Protesters threw rocks and bottles. Sheriff Deputies retaliated with double-0 buckshot, <h3>blinding one man (Alan Blanshard) and killing another</h3> (James Rector). That evening, California Governor Ronald Reagan calls in the National Guard and the California State Highway Patrol to restore order. <h3>Reagan is quoted on May 15, 1969 in the San Francisco Chronicle as saying "If there has to be a bloodbath, then let's get it over with."</h3>

On May 20, National Guard helicopters tear-gas a peaceful demonstration on Sproul Plaza, setting off several days of rioting and confrontation by Berkeley's students and citizens. National Guard continues to occupy Berkeley until all protesters are subdued and/or incarcerated. [Rorabaugh, pp: 156-166]

View clip from People's Park (Newsreel, 1969)
(Courtesy of Roz Payne Archives)

<h3>...and nothing changed during his presidency:</h3>

Quote:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=1962220

....In 1976, Reagan sought the Republican nomination against the incumbent President Gerald Ford. Reagan's campaign was on the ropes until the primaries hit the Southern states, where he won his first key victory in North Carolina. Throughout the South that spring and summer, Reagan portrayed himself as Goldwater's heir while criticizing Ford as a captive of Eastern establishment Republicans fixated on forced integration.

Reagan lost the nomination to Ford in 1976. But when the former California governor ran for the presidency again <h3>in 1980, he began his campaign with a controversial appearance in Philadelphia, Miss., where three civil rights workers had been brutally killed. It was at that sore spot on the racial map that Reagan revived talk about states' rights and curbing the power of the federal government.</h3>

To many it sounded like code for announcing himself as the candidate for white segregationists. After he defeated President Carter, a native Southerner, Reagan led an administration that seemed to cater to Southerners still angry over the passage of the Civil Rights Act after 16 years. The Reagan team condemned busing for school integration, opposed affirmative action and even threatened to veto a proposed extension of the Voting Rights Act (the sequel to the 1964 Civil Rights Act passed a year later and focused on election participation). President Reagan also tried to allow Bob Jones University, a segregated Southern school, to reclaim federal tax credits that had long been denied to racially discriminatory institutions.

The genial Californian Republican denied there was any racism implicit in those policies. Even when he was characterizing poor women as welfare queens driving around in pink Cadillacs, he said it was a merely matter of encouraging people to pull themselves up by the bootstraps. The America he seemed to envision had no need to deal with racial divisions, and he said his only desire was to encourage self-sufficiency for all Americans and to reduce all Americans' dependence on government programs.

Today it is hard to believe that Reagan had such success using the Civil Rights Act as a whipping boy. The Civil Rights Act is now so widely accepted that it doesn't attract controversy in any region of the country -- including the South. There is no debate about the right of black people, Hispanics or Asians to stay in a hotel, shop in a store or to apply for a job without fear of racial discrimination......
Can Partisan Spin Rehab 3rd Consecutive GOP President's "Rep" But Kill Our Pol.Forum
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=120775

....At his news conference, Walsh said it was "very disturbing" for him to be pointing fingers at people he didn't prosecute, but justified it as a requirement of the independent counsel law designed to make such prosecutors fully accountable for their actions, both in what they did not do as well as what they did.
He said the provision was enacted out of congressional concerns following the Watergate investigation when special prosecutors issued "a rather condensed report" and then went on to write books about their work.

Walsh also acknowledged that he made "some mistakes of judgment" in the course of the $36 million inquiry, particularly at the beginning when "I thought I could handle it with 10 lawyers." He said he did not expand his staff significantly until Congress began talking of granting immunity to key figures such as North and Poindexter, a step that ultimately resulted in the voiding of their criminal convictions.

For the first time, Walsh publicly discussed his view that Reagan believed he was acting in the public interest, even if wrongheadedly. Walsh said the bare facts would suggest Reagan had "knowingly participated or at least acquiesced" in a coverup, but "such a conclusion runs against President Reagan's seeming blindness to reality when it came to the rationalization of some of his Iran and hostage policies. . . .

"The simple fact is that President Reagan seems not to have been ashamed of what he had done," Walsh said.
"He had convinced himself that he was not trading arms for hostages."

Recalling his last questioning of Reagan in July 1992, Walsh said the former president's "memory had obviously failed. He had little recollection of the meetings and details of the transactions" even when his own diary notes were read back to him.

By contrast, Walsh charged in his report that Bush apparently "had little intention of cooperating with the independent counsel" in the final stages of the investigation. According to a 1993 FBI interview with a former associate White House counsel for Bush, Janet Rehnquist, lawyers in the White House had decided to tell Walsh's prosecutors to "pound sand" in response to interview requests.

"Their position was that interviews had already been done, that an election was going on and that enough was enough," the FBI report of the intervew stated. After the election, Bush insisted that any interview be limited to his failure to tell prosecutors until mid-December 1992 about a diary he kept during the Iran-contra period.

As a result, Walsh said, "the criminal investigation of Bush was regrettably incomplete." He said his only recourse, a grand jury subpoena of the former president, would have been inappropriate, in part because it would have smacked of retaliation for the pardons.

Responding for Bush, Bell said that Walsh "refused to consider any reasonable limitations" on the scope of the questions.
Charlatan, you prefer "funny" posts, over the ones I author. You live in a country enjoying a sound and rising currency, universal medical treatment expense coverage, a trade balance of payments surplus, energy independence, amongst a citizenry concerned that the total wealth in the hands of the top ten percent has risen from 52 to 58 percent.


As this thread indicates, three months before I joined TFP, no discussion was taking place on this forum:
<a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=58578">Reagan - An alternative viewpoint</a>

For a discussion to take place, i'm assuming that the folks who could have posted in the 2004 thread at the preceding link would have been required to defend the indefensible, and they couldn't do it then, and they cannot, now.

Consider that, in our "Reaganized" American era, I have nothing to discuss with a large portion of my countrymen, nor they with me. Under these circumstances, this forum becomes a place to highlight and display "the evidence", which is what I, with no possibility of discussion coming, as long as a majority are unoffended by what Reagan, said, did, and "stood for", ...am doing here.

Last edited by host; 11-25-2007 at 08:05 PM..
host is offline  
Old 11-25-2007, 10:37 PM   #18 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
Ustwo's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
I would argue that your post and Ustwo's only differ in that his is funny. They are both part of the problem (for different reasons).
Mine are funny and they do make a point in this thread.

Rather then try to dissect unprovable allegations and unknown evidence, we need to think 'to what end'.

To what end would this be if it were truly some sort of Brown shirt type of administration? Silencing some AP reporter, creating some sort of possible backlash for what? No gain in the polls, no gain really any where.

I am always bemused by people who put this administration at the 'idiot' level and the 'evil genius' level when its really quite neither.

Some things should be self evident. If they had found WMD's in Iraq about 80% of the issues would have gone away. We have been told by many how they lied to us blah blah blah, war crimes blah blah blah. Well if they were lying, why in holy hell didn't they plant some WMD's? How freaking hard would it be for these guys to plant a few dozen jugs of Anthrax? We could have even used past samples to culture to show it was the same Iraqi strain they had used before. Instead, nothing new. Now some say they were there and they were moved out by convoy to Syria prior to the war, maybe, by default WMD's are small, maybe not, others say they were never there, maybe maybe not, but it doesn't really matter. What matters is none were found and if the administration was lying, you can be for damn sure someone would have set up a cache to be 'found' by innocent and eager troops.

We know what the issue is here Charlatan and it ain't me, I'm not the other part of the problem, I am the lightening rod
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.
Ustwo is offline  
Old 11-25-2007, 11:38 PM   #19 (permalink)
Banned
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Mine are funny and they do make a point in this thread.

Rather then try to dissect unprovable allegations and unknown evidence, we need to think 'to what end'.

To what end would this be if it were truly some sort of Brown shirt type of administration? Silencing some AP reporter, creating some sort of possible backlash for what? No gain in the polls, no gain really any where.

I am always bemused by people who put this administration at the 'idiot' level and the 'evil genius' level when its really quite neither.

Some things should be self evident. If they had found WMD's in Iraq about 80% of the issues would have gone away. We have been told by many how they lied to us blah blah blah, war crimes blah blah blah. Well if they were lying, why in holy hell didn't they plant some WMD's? How freaking hard would it be for these guys to plant a few dozen jugs of Anthrax? We could have even used past samples to culture to show it was the same Iraqi strain they had used before. Instead, nothing new. Now some say they were there and they were moved out by convoy to Syria prior to the war, maybe, by default WMD's are small, maybe not, others say they were never there, maybe maybe not, but it doesn't really matter. What matters is none were found and if the administration was lying, you can be for damn sure someone would have set up a cache to be 'found' by innocent and eager troops.

We know what the issue is here Charlatan and it ain't me, I'm not the other part of the problem, I am the lightening rod
The only word I can come up with to describe what is in the quote box above is, unconscionable !

When it came to initially "selling" justification for invading and occupying Iraq, and then defending the decisions, after the invasion, you could tell that Cheney and Bush were speaking deceitfully because their lips were moving:

From 4-29-07. on another thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by host
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...6&postcount=48

Quote:
Originally Posted by aceventura3
No. I think he refers to information made public and available prior to the invasion that Sadaam was in violation of UN resolutions, Sadaam used weapons of mass Destruction, Sadaam was supporting terrorist (at least their families), and that if Sadaam had nuclear weapons it would be a direct threat. I think these were the reasons Congress and people in the prior administration thought he was a threat.

Host,

Here is your second item:



First - Rusert states that Cheney stated there was no direct connection between Iraq and Al Queda regarding 9/11. Cheney refers to the intellegence released by the Czech saying the report was confirmed. Has there been any evidence disputing the Czech intelligence? How did Cheney lie?

Then Cheney says we want to look into the meeting further. Where is the lie?

What was the point of you posting this information, it doesn't seem to support your position and in-fact contradicts your position by an independent source, Russert.

Should we continue, do you want to start over with your best case, or what?
.....I'll run through it in short bursts:

Cheney on Nov. 14, 2001:
Quote:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/vicepresid...p20011114.html
Interview of the Vice President
by CBS's 60 Minutes II
November 14, 2001

......<b>Gloria Borger: Well, you know that Muhammad Atta the ringleader of the hijackers actually met with Iraqi intelligence.

Vice President Cheney: I know this. In Prague in April of this year as well as earlier. And that information has been made public. The Czechs made that public. Obviously that's an interesting piece of information.</b>

Gloria Borger: Sounds like you have your suspicions?

Vice President Cheney: I can't operate on suspicions. The President and the rest of us who are involved in this effort have to make what we think are the right decisions for the United States and the national security arena and that's what we're doing. And it doesn't do a lot of good for us to speculate. We'd rather operate based on facts and make announcements when we've got announcements to make. .........
...and Cheney, answering the same question, less than a month later:
Quote:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/vicepresid...p20011209.html
December 9, 2001

The Vice President Appears on NBC's Meet the Press

.......RUSSERT: Let me turn to Iraq. When you were last on this program, September 16, five days after the attack on our country, I asked you whether there was any evidence that Iraq was involved in the attack and you said no.

<b>Since that time, a couple of articles have appeared which I want to get you to react to. The first: The Czech interior minister said today that an Iraqi intelligence officer met with Mohammed Atta, one of the ringleaders of the September 11 terrorists attacks on the United States, just five months before the synchronized hijackings and mass killings were carried out..
</b>
........RUSSERT: The plane on the ground in Iraq used to train non-Iraqi hijackers.

Do you still believe there is no evidence that Iraq was involved in September 11?

<b>CHENEY: Well, what we now have that's developed since you and I last talked, Tim, of course, was that report that's been pretty well confirmed, that he did go to Prague and he did meet with a senior official of the Iraqi intelligence service in Czechoslovakia last April, several months before the attack.</b>

Now, what the purpose of that was, what transpired between them, we simply don't know at this point. But that's clearly an avenue that we want to pursue...........
Quote:
From: http://kucinich.house.gov/SpotlightIssues/documents.htm
http://kucinich.house.gov/UploadedFiles/artI1FG.pdf
....or, here:
Quote:
Transcript of Interview with Vice-President Dick Cheney on Meet ...
Sunday, September 8, 2002 GUEST: Vice President DICK CHENEY MODERATOR/PANELIST: Tim Russert - NBC News This is a rush transcript provided for the ...
www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/bush/meet.htm
VICE PRES. CHENEY: Well, I want to be very careful about how I say this. I'm not here today to make a specific allegation that Iraq was somehow responsible for 9/11. I can't say that. On the other hand, since we did that interview, new information has come to light. And we spent time looking at that relationship between Iraq, on the one hand, and the al-Qaeda organization on the other. And there has been reporting that suggests that there have been a number of contacts over the years. We've seen in connection with the hijackers, of course, Mohamed Atta, who was the lead hijacker, did apparently travel to Prague on a number of occasions. And on at least one occasion, we have reporting that places him in Prague with a senior Iraqi intelligence official a few months before the attack on the World Trade Center. The debates about, you know, was he there or wasn't he there, again, it's the intelligence business.

Mr. RUSSERT: What does the CIA say about that? Is it credible?

VICE PRES. CHENEY: It's credible. But, you know, I think a way to put it would be it's unconfirmed at this point. We've got...

Quote:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/0...l-the-message/

With the news on the Pentagon and Douglas Feith's breaking today–("inappropriate" actions in advancing conclusions on al-Qaida connections not backed up by the nation's intelligence agencies)—I wanted us to see how these manipulations were put into play on Meet the Press, the show that the OVP thought was the perfect place to "control the message."

From Hardball 11/08/05. Remember when Dick Cheney said it was pretty well confirmed before he didn’t?

video_wmv Download (4636) | Play (4046) video_wmv Download (2231) | Play (2347)

In ‘01, Cheney said this on MTP:

CHENEY: It‘s been pretty well confirmed that he did go to Prague and he did meet with a senior official of the Iraqi intelligence service in Czechoslovakia last April.

<b>on 6/19/04 CNBC, he said:</b>

GLORIA BORGER, TV SHOW HOST: You have said in the past that it was, quote, “pretty well confirmed.”

CHENEY: No, I never said that. BORGER: OK.

CHENEY: I never said that. BORGER: I think that is…

CHENEY: Absolutely not. (Cheney continues, here:
http://www.drudgereportarchives.com/...202_flash3.htm
......What I said was the Czech intelligence service reported after 9/11 that Atta had been in Prague on April 9th of 2001, where he allegedly met with an Iraqi intelligence official. We have never been able to confirm that nor have we been able to knock it down.

BORGER: Well, now this report says it didn't happen.

Vice Pres. CHENEY: No. This report says they haven't found any evidence.

BORGER: That it happened.

Vice Pres. CHENEY: Right.

BORGER: But you haven't found the evidence that it happened either, have you?

Vice Pres. CHENEY: No. All we have is that one report from the Czechs. We just don't know.

BORGER: So does this put it to rest for you or not on Atta?

Vice Pres. CHENEY: It doesn't add anything from my perspective. I mean, I still am a skeptic. I can't refute the Czech plan. I can't prove the Czech plan. It's ...(unintelligible) the nature of the intelligence (unintelligible).

BORGER: OK, but let's...

Vice Pres. CHENEY: But that is a separate question from what the press has gotten all in a dither about, The New York Times especially, on this other question. What they've done is, I think, distorted what the commission actually reported, certainly according to Governor Thompson, who's a member of the commission.

BORGER: But you say you disagree with the commission...

Vice Pres. CHENEY: On this question of whether or not there was a general relationship.

BORGER: Yes.

Vice Pres. CHENEY: Yeah.

BORGER: And they say that there was not one forged and you were saying yes, that there was. Do you know things that the commission does not know?

Vice Pres. CHENEY: Probably.

BORGER: And do you think the commission needs to know them?

Vice Pres. CHENEY: I don't have any--I don't know what they know. I do know they didn't talk with any original sources on this subject that say that in their report.

BORGER: They did talk with people who had interrogated sources.

Vice Pres. CHENEY: Right.

BORGER: So they do have good sources.

Vice Pres. CHENEY: Gloria, the notion that there is no relationship between Iraq and al-Qaida just simply is not true. I'm going to read this material here. Your show isn't long enough for me to read all the pieces...

BORGER: Sure it is
.   click to show 


Vice Pres. CHENEY: Well, actually it went very fast.......
ace: "ATTA IN PRAGUE" didn't happen:
Quote:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5233810/
Cheney blames media for blurring Saddam, 9/11
'We have never been able to prove that there was a connection,' VP says
MSNBC staff and news service reports
Updated: 11:31 a.m. ET June 18, 2004

WASHINGTON - Blaming what he called "lazy" reporters for blurring the distinction, Vice President Dick Cheney said that while "overwhelming" evidence shows a past relationship between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaida, the Bush administration never accused Saddam of helping with the Sept. 11 attacks.

"We have never been able to prove that there was a connection there on 9/11," he said in the CNBC interview that aired on NBC's "Today" show Friday.

Cheney was echoing comments by President Bush on Thursday, and they followed a report by the bipartisan Sept. 11 commission that found no "collaborative relationship" between the former Iraqi leader and Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida network.

Cheney, however, insisted the case was not closed into whether there was an Iraq connection to the Sept. 11 attacks. "We don't know."

The vice president noted a disputed report about an alleged meeting between an Iraqi intelligence official and lead hijacker Mohamed Atta in the Czech Republic in April 2001. "We've never been able to confirm or to knock it down," Cheney said.

<h3>The 9/11 commission, however, said in one of three reports issued this week that "based on the evidence available — including investigation by Czech and U.S. authorities plus detainee reporting — we do not believe that such a meeting occurred."</h3>

Cheney responded that, for his part, the findings remained inconclusive. "It doesn't add anything from my perspective. I mean, I still am a skeptic."

Firm stance
Overall, the vice president defended the administration's view of Iraq's links to al-Qaida, saying the "the evidence is overwhelming" and citing the commission report's evidence of a meeting between bin Laden and an Iraqi official in 1994 in Sudan, <h3>as well as the presence of terror suspect Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in Iraq.....</h3>
Quote:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14824384/site/newsweek/
Atta in Prague
The story that the ‘intelligence community’ doesn’t want you to hear.

WEB EXCLUSIVE
By Mark Hosenball
Newsweek
Updated: 7:48 p.m. ET Sept. 13, 2006

Sept. 13, 2006 - The claim that terrorist leader Mohamed Atta met in Prague with an Iraqi spy a few months before 9/11 was never substantiated, but that didn’t stop the White House from trying to insert the allegation in presidential speeches, according to classified documents.......

.......According to two sources familiar with the blacked-out portions of the Senate report that discuss the CIA cable's contents, the document indicates that White House officials had proposed mentioning the supposed Atta-Prague meeting in a Bush speech scheduled for March 14, 2003. Originated by Czech intelligence shortly after 9/11, the tendentious claim was that in April 2001, Atta, the 9/11 hijack leader, had met in Prague with the local station chief for Iraqi intelligence. The sources said that upon learning of the proposed White House speech, the CIA station in Prague sent back a cable explaining in detail why the agency believed the anecdote was ill-founded.

According to one of the sources familiar with the Senate report's censored portions, who asked for anonymity due to the sensitivity of the subject, the tone of the CIA cable was “strident” and expressed dismay that the White House was trying to shoehorn the Atta anecdote into the Bush speech to be delivered only days before the U.S. invasion of Iraq. The source said the cable also suggested that policymakers had tried to insert the same anecdote into other speeches by top administration officials..........
Quote:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1121/dailyUpdate.html

World>Terrorism & Security
posted November 21, 2005 at 11:00 a.m.

Germany: CIA knew 'Curveball' was not trustworthy
German intelligence alleges Bush administration repeatedly 'exaggerated' informant's claims in run-up to war.
By Tom Regan | csmonitor.com
Five top German intelligence officers say that the Bush administration and the CIA repeatedly ignored warnings about the veracity of the information that an Iraqi informant named 'Curveball' was giving about Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction. The Los Angeles Times, in a massive report published Sunday, reports that "the Bush administration and the CIA repeatedly exaggerated his claims during the run-up to the war in Iraq." They also say that 'Curveball,' whom the Germans described as "not a psychologically stable guy," never claimed that he had produced germ weapons, nor had he ever seen anyone do it.

The Independent reports that proof of Curveball's lack of credibility came when the US sent its own team of inspectors to look for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. They discovered the informants's personnel files in Baghdad.

It showed he had been a low-level trainee engineer, not a project chief or site manager, as the CIA had insisted. Moreover he had been dismissed in 1995 – just when he claimed to have begun work on bio-warfare trucks.

The Independent also provides what it calls its list of "intelligence red herrings." There was Curveball himself. There was Ahmed Chalabi, who brought to US attention defectors that "proved to be false, as was his claim that US invaders would be met with bouquets." There was the Niger-Iraq uranium story, which later turned out to have been fabricated by a former Italian spy. And there was Iraq's possession of aluminum tubes, which the administration said were for nuclear weapons, yet turned out to be for small conventional military rockets.........

Curveball's German handlers for the last six years said his information was often vague, mostly secondhand and impossible to confirm. "This was not substantial evidence," said a senior German intelligence official. "We made clear we could not verify the things he said."

http://groups.google.com.tw/group/al...9995877e60e9d?
........According to the Germans, President Bush mischaracterized Curveball's information when he warned before the war that Iraq had at least seven mobile factories brewing biological poisons. Then-Secretary of State Colin L. Powell also misstated Curveball's accounts in his prewar presentation to the United Nations on Feb. 5, 2003, the Germans said.

The Times report also says that the White House ignored evidence presented by the United Nations that showed that Curveball was wrong, and that the CIA " punished in-house critics who provided proof that he had lied and [the CIA] refused to admit error until May 2004, 14 months after the invasion." Much of the information Curveball gave to the CIA later turned out to be stories he had gleaned from research on the Internet.....
Don't misunderstand me, ace. Cheney had plenty of company. Bush spouted this garbage....refuted in the preceding quote box....twice...just days apart, around the time of Powell's phoney presentation at the UN:
Quote:
Quote:
President Bush: "World Can Rise to This Moment"
President Bush Thursday said, "The Security Council can affirm that it is ... has at least seven mobile factories for the production of biological agents, ...
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...030206-17.html
The Iraqi regime's violations of Security Council resolutions are evident, and they continue to this hour. The regime has never accounted for a vast arsenal of deadly biological and chemical weapons. To the contrary; the regime is pursuing an elaborate campaign to conceal its weapons materiels, and to hide or intimidate key experts and scientists, all in direct defiance of Security Council 1441.

This deception is directed from the highest levels of the Iraqi regime, including Saddam Hussein, his son, the Vice President, and the very official responsible for cooperating with inspectors. In intercepted conversations, we have heard orders to conceal materiels from the U.N. inspectors. And we have seen through satellite images concealment activity at close to 30 sites, including movement of equipment before inspectors arrive.

The Iraqi regime has actively and secretly attempted to obtain equipment needed to produce chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. Firsthand <b>witnesses have informed us that Iraq has at least seven mobile factories for the production of biological agents</b>, equipment mounted on trucks and rails to evade discovery. Using these factories, Iraq could produce within just months hundreds of pounds of biological poisons....
Quote:
Quote:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea.../20030208.html
President's Radio Address
Firsthand witnesses have informed us that Iraq has at least seven mobile factories for the production of biological agents -- equipment mounted on trucks ...
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea.../20030208.html
.....The regime has never accounted for a vast arsenal of deadly, biological and chemical weapons. To the contrary, the regime is pursuing an elaborate campaign to conceal its weapons materials and to hide or intimidate key experts and scientists. This effort of deception is directed from the highest levels of the Iraqi regime, including Saddam Hussein, his son, Iraq's vice president and the very official responsible for cooperating with inspectors.

The Iraqi regime has actively and secretly attempted to obtain equipment needed to produce chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. Firsthand witnesses have informed us that Iraq has <b>at least seven mobile factories for the production of biological agents -- equipment mounted on trucks and rails to evade discovery.</b>

The Iraqi regime has acquired and tested the means to deliver weapons of mass destruction. It has never accounted for thousands of bombs and shells capable of delivering chemical weapons.....
They did it over and over....ace....putting out their fearful message....attributing it to others....pulled it back.....put it out, again...and now, we know that they knew when they were doing it, that it was unreliable....that there was no consensus in the US intelligence community or in the intelligence community of NATO allies....but they "put it out", ace....because, as Tenet tells us, this week, they never considered anything but war as the "solution" in Iraq. They had to "fix the facts" around the "policy".

How can you tell that they were lying to us then, and now....because all Bush and Cheney had was "Atta met with an Iraqi agent in Prague", and "Zarqawi was in Baghdad and ran a "poison camp" in Iraq"....and Cheney still justifies the invasion of Iraq, this month, and Bush did as recently as last September, with the worn out mantra that "Zarqawi was present", even though he had no relationship with Saddam or his government, and was located at a "poison camp" in an area of Northern Iraq that US military and it's Kurdish allies could access....if they wanted to.....but Saddam's military could not......

Quote:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea.../20060821.html

For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
<h3>August 21, 2006</h3>

Press Conference by the President
White House Conference Center Briefing Room

......Q Quick follow-up. A lot of the consequences you mentioned for pulling out seem like maybe they never would have been there if we hadn't gone in. How do you square all of that?

THE PRESIDENT: I square it because, imagine a world in which you had Saddam Hussein who had the capacity to make a weapon of mass destruction, who was paying suiciders to kill innocent life, who would --who had relations with Zarqawi.....
Quote:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea.../20060910.html
<b>Sept. 10, 2006</b>

.....Q Then why in the lead-up to the war was there the constant linkage between Iraq and al Qaeda?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: That's a different issue. Now, there's a question of whether or not al Qaeda -- whether or not Iraq was involved in 9/11; separate and apart from that is the issue of whether or not there was a historic relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda. The basis for that is probably best captured in George Tenet's testimony before the Senate intel committee in open session, where he said specifically that there was a pattern, a relationship that went back at least a decade between Iraq and al Qaeda......

........we know that Zarqawi, running a terrorist camp in Afghanistan prior to 9/11, after we went into 9/11 -- then fled and went to Baghdad and set up operations in Baghdad in the spring of '02......

.........Zarqawi was in Baghdad after we took Afghanistan and before we went into Iraq. <h2>You had the facility up at Kermal, a poisons facility run by an Ansar al-Islam, an affiliate of al Qaeda</h2>......
Quote:
Quote:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,213211,00.html
Transcript: Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on 'FOX News Sunday'

Sunday, September 10, 2006

......WALLACE: And in March 2003, just before the invasion, you said, talking about Iraq, "and a very strong link to training Al Qaeda in chemical and biological techniques."

But, Secretary Rice, a Senate committee has just revealed that in February of 2002, months before the president spoke, more than a year, 13 months, before you spoke, that the Defense Intelligence Agency concluded this — and let's put it up on the screen.

"Iraq is unlikely to have provided bin Laden any useful CB" — that's chemical or biological — "knowledge or assistance."

Didn't you and the president ignore intelligence that contradicted your case?

RICE: What the president and I and other administration officials relied on — and you simply rely on the central intelligence. The director of central intelligence, George Tenet, gave that very testimony, that, in fact, there were ties going on between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein's regime going back for a decade. Indeed, the 9/11 Commission talked about contacts between the two.

We know that Zarqawi was running a poisons network in Iraq. We know that Zarqawi ordered the killing of an American diplomat in Jordan from Iraq. There were ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda.

Now, are we learning more now that we have access to people like Saddam Hussein's intelligence services? Of course we're going to learn more. But clearly ...

WALLACE: But, Secretary Rice, this report, if I may, this report wasn't now. This isn't after the fact. This was a Defense Intelligence Agency report in 2002.....
Quote:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0060912-2.html
For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
<h3>September 12, 2006</h3>

Press Briefing by Tony Snow

...Q Well, one more, Tony, just one more. Do you believe -- does the President still believe that Saddam Hussein was connected to Zarqawi or al Qaeda before the invasion?

MR. SNOW: The President has never said that there was a direct, operational relationship between the two, and this is important. Zarqawi was in Iraq.

Q There was a link --

MR. SNOW: Well, and there was a relationship -- there was a relationship in this sense: Zarqawi was in Iraq; al Qaeda members were in Iraq; they were operating, and in some cases, operating freely from Iraq. Zarqawi, for instance, directed the assassination of an American diplomat in Amman, Jordan. But they did they have a corner office at the Mukhabarat? No. Were they getting a line item in Saddam's budget? No. There was no direct operational relationship, but there was a relationship. They were in the country, and I think you understand that the Iraqis knew they were there. That's the relationship.

<h2>Q Saddam Hussein knew they were there; that's it for the relationship?

MR. SNOW: That's pretty much it......</h2>
Quote:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0060915-2.html
<h3>Sept. 15, 2006</h3>

......MARTHA: Mr. President, you have said throughout the war in Iraq and building up to the war in Iraq that there was a relationship between Saddam Hussein and Zarqawi and al Qaeda. A Senate Intelligence Committee report a few weeks ago said there was no link, no relationship, and that the CIA knew this and issued a report last fall. And yet a month ago, you were still saying there was a relationship. Why did you keep saying that? Why do you continue to say that? And do you still believe that?

BUSH: The point I was making to Ken Herman’s question was that Saddam Hussein was a state sponsor of terror, and that Mr. Zarqawi was in Iraq. He had been wounded in Afghanistan, had come to Iraq for treatment. He had ordered the killing of a U.S. citizen in Jordan. <h2>I never said there was an operational relationship.....</h2>
Quote:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...061019-10.html
For Immediate Release
Office of the Vice President
October 19, 2006

Satellite Interview of the Vice President by WSBT-TV, South Bend, Indiana
2nd Congressional District -
Representative Chris Chocola

........Q Are you saying that you believe fighting in Iraq has prevented terrorist attacks on American soil? And if so, why, since there has not been a direct connection between al Qaeda and Iraq established?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, the fact of the matter is there are connections. Mr. Zarqawi, who was the lead terrorist in Iraq for three years, fled there after we went into Afghanistan. <h2>He was there before we ever went into Iraq.</h2> The sectarian violence that we see now, in part, has been stimulated by the fact of al Qaeda attacks intended to try to create conflict between Shia and Sunni......
Quote:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0070405-3.html
For Immediate Release
Office of the Vice President
<h3>April 5, 2007</h3>

Interview of the Vice President by Rush Limbaugh, The Rush Limbaugh Show
Via Telephone

1:07 P.M. EDT

Q It's always a great privilege to have the Vice President, Dick Cheney, with us. Mr. Vice President, welcome once again to our program.

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, thank you, Rush. It's good to be back on......

.....Q It may not just be Iraq. Yesterday I read that Ike Skelton, who chairs -- I forget the name of the committee -- in the next defense appropriations bill for fiscal '08 is going to actually remove the phrase "global war on terror," because they don't think it's applicable. They want to refer to conflicts as individual skirmishes. But they're going to try to rid the defense appropriation bill -- and, thus, official government language -- of that term. Does that give you any indication of their motivation or what they think of the current plight in which the country finds itself?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Sure -- well, it's just flawed thinking. I like Ike Skelton; I worked closely with Ike when I was Secretary of Defense. He's Chairman of the Armed Services Committee now. Ike is a good man. He's just dead wrong about this, though. Think about -- just to give you one example, Rush, remember Abu Musab al Zarqawi, a Jordanian terrorist, al Qaeda affiliate; ran a training camp in Afghanistan for al Qaeda, then migrated -- after we went into Afghanistan and shut him down there, <h2>he went to Baghdad, took up residence there before we ever launched into Iraq;</h2> organized the al Qaeda operations inside Iraq before we even arrived on the scene, and then, of course, led the charge for Iraq until we killed him last June. He's the guy who arranged the bombing of the Samarra Mosque that precipitated the sectarian violence between Shia and Sunni. <h2>This is al Qaeda operating in Iraq. And as I say, they were present before we invaded Iraq.</h2> ....
Cheney, as the immediately preceding quote box illustrates, was still telling the same intentional lies to justify invading Iraq, just 25 days ago.....
<h3>Charlatan, please read the text at this link:</h3>
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...am#post2120124
Quote:
<h3>Friday, February 7, 2003</h3>

Washington -- Secretary of State Colin L. Powell spent a significant part of his presentation to the United Nations this week <h3>describing a terrorist camp in northern Iraq where al-Qaida affiliates are said to be training to carry out attacks with explosives and poisons.

But neither Powell nor other administration officials answered the question: What is the United States doing about it?</h3>

Lawmakers who have attended classified briefings on the camp say that they have been stymied for months in their efforts to get an explanation for <h3>why the U.S. has not launched a military strike on the compound near the village of Khurmal.</h3> Powell cited its ongoing operation as one of the key reasons for suspecting ties between Baghdad and the al-Qaida terror network.

The lawmakers put new pressure on the Bush administration on Thursday <h3>to explain its decision to leave the facility unharmed.

"Why have we not taken it out?" Sen. Joseph Biden (D-Del.) asked Powell during a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing. "Why have we let it sit there if it's such a dangerous plant producing these toxins?"

Powell declined to answer</h3>, saying he could not discuss the matter in open session.

"I can assure you that it is a place that has been very much in our minds. And we have been tracing individuals who have gone in there and come out of there," Powell said.

Absent an explanation from the White House,
some officials suggested the administration had refrained from striking the compound in part to preserve a key piece of its case against Iraq.

"This is it, this is their compelling evidence for use of force," said one intelligence official, who asked not to be identified.<h3> "If you take it out, you can't use it as justification for war."....</h3>

......A White House spokesman said Thursday he had no immediate comment on the matter.

The administration's handling of the issue has emerged as one of the more curious recent elements of the war on terrorism. Failing to intervene appears to be at odds with President Bush's stated policy of pre-empting terrorist threats, and <h3>the facility is in an area where the U.S. already has a considerable presence.</h3>

U.S. intelligence agents are said to be operating among the Kurdish population nearby, and U.S. and British warplanes already patrol much of northern Iraq as part of their enforcement of a "no- fly" zone.
....then read Ustwo's last post again. If I read his post correctly, and if I replace Bush/Cheney with a cop turned executioner, I think Ustwo is saying that it can't be a "bad shoot":, because, if it were, the cop would have placed a "throw away" pistol, carried by police for just such an occasion, to in the hand of the dead, unarmed police shooting victim.

You posted this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
.....I will say it again. If your purpose is to change opinions you are not achieving that goal. You have probably done more to push people away from the Politics Forum than anyone else. I will say that again just so it's clear, You have probably done more to push people away from the Politics Forum than anyone else.

If you are honestly looking to be a force for change and wish to point out what you think is wrong with the current admin, you are failing. You know what you are talking about. You have done the research that few of us have the time to do. You are a fount of obscured knowledge. ....
Just as the gulf betwseen the Reaganized and the rest of us, diminishes the utility and potenital of political discussion, if you consider what Ustwo related in his last post, vs. what I have posted here, and at the preceding link, doesn't the gulf become even wider, a chasm?

Ustwo has reminded in several posts, that he does not read what I post. I re-posted the background of Bush/Cheney deceit, because if is a foundation for the premise of this thread, and he says that he has avoided reading the information about the false tie between Zarqawi, the "Kermal poison camp", and "al Qaeda was in Iraq before we got there", that Cheney and Bush have repeated for four years to justify the invasion, that I have previously provided.

We have this new thread on the forum today:
Quote:
<a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=127856">where do you stand on 6 issues?</a>

2 - do you support the death penalty?
yes


4 - do you believe that part of the role of taxation is to redistribute resources more equally?
no
It seems like a place where the indefensible, support for a government administered death penalty, can be expressed without challenge:
Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...ail/components
SILENT INJUSTICE A Twist to the Left
A Murder Conviction Torn Apart by a Bullet
In a 1995 Maryland Case, Key Testimony and the Science Behind It Have Been Discredited

By John Solomon
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, November 19, 2007; Page A01

...."If this could happen to my client, who was a cop who worked within this justice system, what does it say about defendants who know far less about the process and may have far fewer resources to uncover evidence of their innocence that may have been withheld by the prosecution or their scientific experts?" said Suzanne K. Drouet, a former Justice Department lawyer who took on Kulbicki's case as a public defender.......
...and it seems like a place to post a rejection of progressive taxation, without having to deal with the fact that 70 percent of total US wealth is now in only ten percent of US hands....

The new thread with the six "yes or no" questions, attracted a nice turnout, didn't it?

Last edited by host; 11-26-2007 at 01:12 AM..
host is offline  
Old 11-26-2007, 12:38 AM   #20 (permalink)
let me be clear
 
ottopilot's Avatar
 
Location: Waddy Peytona
edit

Last edited by ottopilot; 12-26-2007 at 08:12 PM..
ottopilot is offline  
Old 11-26-2007, 05:25 AM   #21 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
Ustwo's Avatar
 
I think host has a crush on me.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.
Ustwo is offline  
 


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:52 AM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360