Don't Tase Me Bro - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ubertuber · 09-20-2007, 11:04 AM

Here's the scenario:

Senator John Kerry was speaking to a group of students in an auditorium at the Univeristy of Florida. Student Andrew Meyer barged to the front of the line to ask Senator Kerry a question. His question turned out to be an excuse for a grandstand statement and harangue - though he did ask 3 questions of the Senator. When asked by the forum presenters, he refused to yield the microphone. When asked to leave, he resisted campus security, and when arrested, he resisted arrest. The securty (I'm assuming the UF Police/Public Safety) ended up tasering Meyer and forcibly removed him from the auditorium, apparently under arrest.

Where's the line here? Do the forum presenters have a right to control the questions and questioners? Should they be able to cut people off? Should they be able to ask people to leave? If people refuse to leave, can they be forcefully removed? If they resist removal, can they be arrested for trespassing? If they resist arrest, can force be used?

What, if anything, should John Kerry have done? On the one hand, he is the featured guest, a Senator, has a microphone, and presumably believes himself to have some leadership skills. On the other, it was not his forum. Personally, I don't have a solid answer, but I can't help but feel that he should have had SOME sort of comment or interaction other than standing on stage and awkwardly talking over the sound of a student being arrested and tasered.

There are numerous Youtube videos of this event taken from several vantage points. This one seems to have the most run-up to Meyer's removal - the shorter ones fail to convey as much context.

Don't Tase Me Bro Article on Wired

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wired Article

"Don't Tase Me, Bro!" Jolts the Web
By Sarah Lai Stirland September 19, 2007 | 4:20:56 PMCategories: Politics
Just two days after it was yelled out in a University of Florida lecture hall, "Don't Tase Me, Bro!" has become the newest cultural touchstone of our pop-cultural lexicon.

Consider:
The term hovered between 9th and 11th place as the most searched for term on Google for Wednesday, according to Google Trends.
The above video has been the number 1 Viral Video for the past 24 hours, according to Unruly Media, an online marketing firm in London that tracks viral video activity on the Web. The Meyer arrest video has received 2.6 million views and almost 40,000 new comments since Monday.
In contrast, the much-talked about MoveOn.org's "Betrayal of Trust," anti-Rudy Giuliani ad received just over 171 thousand views and 59 new blog posts. And John Edwards' rebuttal to President Bush's progress report on the Iraq war received 114 thousand views and 43 new posts.
Many of the leading opinion shapers on both the left and the right, as well as newspaper blogs, offered their thoughts and insights on the incident.
Television pundits across the dial offered their opinions, and those opinions were archived for posterity on YouTube.
Several enterprising individuals have even snapped up variations of the spelling of the phrase as Web addresses. One of them points to a Wikipedia entry for the University of Florida.
Someone has already created a mashup.
A couple of t-shirt designs, and bumper stickers have emerged.
Dozens of people have felt compelled to record their own video responses in a YouTube forum discussion on the matter.

For those of you who've been on vacation on a Greek Island, or are just logging onto your computer from a remote location in China, the incident sparking the worldwide uproar is the Monday arrest and tasering of Andrew Meyer, a University of Florida student.
Meyer barged in line to harangue Massachusetts senator John Kerry during a campus talk that day. The student refused to pipe down after being asked to by the forum's organizers, and after he carried on pressing Kerry for answers, police hauled him off. They forced him to the ground, and tasered him.
Several versions of the incident are up on YouTube, and there's a debate about whether Meyer, known as a prankster, staged the incident in Sacha Baron Cohen-style or not.
Whatever its true nature, the altercation whipped up a tornado of rhetoric that is whirling across forums on the Web, including here at Threat Level.
Policemen, Intensive Care Unit trauma unit nurses ... even concerned individuals on the other side of the planet in Australia -- everyone is weighing in on whether Meyer was acting like an ass, and whether he had it coming to him. The incident has opened up the floodgates of an eye-opening debate over First Amendment rights here in the United States, police brutality and the limits and boundaries of how we as a society should deal with the unruly among us.

"This was really sickening to watch. In the video the kid offers to leave and walk out on his own, but instead more and more of those officers try to force him on the ground and into handcuffs.
What a horrible way to handle such a simple situation," writes "Aaron," one of Threat Level's readers.
"The University and its police department should be ashamed of themselves and embarrassed of the way they looked in front of a US Senator. Totally unacceptable," he adds.
Meanwhile, "Nightwatch," who says that he's with a university police department, weighed in and says that he and his colleagues agree that the Florida police handled the situation badly.
And "Jon in Austin" writes that as an intensive care unit trauma nurse, he's concerned about the safety of the devices.
"I am an ICU Trauma Nurse, and I know there have been numerous deaths resulting from the use of the Taser device -- and no one knows who that next victim is going to be! It could be any one of us.
"If we don't stand up against the use of the Taser, who will be next?"
(Taser International says its technology is a "safer use-of-force option" on its web site.)
"I don't believe that asking a question at a town hall meeting, EVEN IF it is long-winded and perhaps even a little combative, should lead to this," writes Jon.
"I think it's foolish to run and flail from the police like that, but I can tell you that this could have been avoided had the police taken him out of the auditorium and explained when and where (or IF?) he broke the law, THEN talk about arrest (but that seems stupid when they could have just kicked him out).
Seems to me, that the real people who caused the disturbance, were the POLICE themselves, who carried it to an entirely absurd and potentially deadly level of risk to this student."
Those wanting to somehow cash in on the notoriety of the phrase, or who perhaps were like cultural tourists wanting to hold onto a keepsake of the moment, went ahead and registered domain names.
Someone by the name of Johannes Feldberg registered donttasemebro.com yesterday, and Alexander Shkirenko, who apparently was chairman of the college Republicans at Georgia Tech a decade ago, registered donttazemebro.com. The list goes on.
Michael Sarfatti in San Francisco grabbed Dontasemebro.com at 1 am this morning as he was listening to a radio show discussing the now infamous incident.
When asked why he bothered, and what he intended to do with it, Sarfatti, the founder of a baby boomer technology-related consulting firm in San Francisco, laughed heartily.
"I'm not sure why I did it -- other than it's going to be an expression in our society for a long time," he says. "I went to [domain name registrar] GoDaddy, and there was a whole bunch of people who had already registered various versions of it -- I was actually surprised to get it."
"I think it's a hilarious expression -- it's a classic phrase," he adds. "It's such a brilliant line -- to be honest, I think it was a set-up, but it was a brilliant ploy. I'd hire that guy in a heartbeat if indeed it was."
Asked how anybody could want, or plan to be tasered, Sarfatti implied that it's not an uncommon occurrence. He says that he's heard that there are games that people play that involve tasering each other.
"As an engineer I'm curious [about how that works] but as a human, I think I'll take a pass," he laughed.
Addendum: My question for readers: There's been a lot of debate [see comments section below] about whether Meyer "deserved" to be tasered, or not. But the question in my mind is not whether he would have otherwise received a bullet in his chest (as some of you have suggested he would have.)
The question is whether the use of this new technology is justified. In a world without tasers, he would have just been subdued by the police officers until he surrendered his wrists to be cuffed. The worrying aspect of this incident is the trigger-happiness of the law-enforcement authorities.
Several police officers already had him on the ground -- why did they need to taser him? It's an important question: I think we need to define the limits of what we find acceptable, and what we don't with the uses of relatively new technology, since that is how we formulate policy: On consensus. To our police officer readers: I've never been tasered (I pray that I never will,) so I can't appreciate how extreme of an act it is. It certainly looks extreme. But what if an individual has a heart condition, or any other condition that the taser would have interfered with?
The trigger-happy aspect of this disturbs me since there's been a lot of disquieting news on the subject, recently.

Willravel · 09-20-2007, 11:12 AM

I saw this on Digg the other day. The tasing appears to be quite excessive, from the context given. The kid was being very rude (stop giving liberals such a bad image, people), but he didn't appear to need anywhere near the force used by the officers. Not only that, but Kerry was pretty cowardly to dodge that question so much. He won the damn election and laid down as Bush took it. At least Al Gore fought a bit. The whole thing is a bit frustrating.

Rekna · 09-20-2007, 11:14 AM

This guy was trying to get this to happen. There are reports that he was calm afterwards asking if there will be camera's where they are going etc. Then as soon as there were cameras he starting yelling and screaming again. He wanted attention, intentionally goaded the police (even before barging into the front of the line). Police have a hard enough time, we shouldn't be intentionally making it harder. Also if you look at the kids websites he does this kind of stuff all the time. I think this is a non-story.

Oh yeah and they tazed him because he was fighting and wouldn't let them put handcuffs on him.

Willravel · 09-20-2007, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

Oh yeah and they tazed him because he was fighting and wouldn't let them put handcuffs on him.

Link?

The_Jazz · 09-20-2007, 11:27 AM

I heard about it the next day from my brother-in-law who was there. He heard the commotion but didn't see anything. I should also point out that I think, as a Tennessee fan, that all Florida fans should be tased on general prinicple, especially after debacle on Saturday.

All joking aside, one of the negative things that I think that the civil rights movement started and that the general protesting community picked up on is a lack of civility. Yes, that is sometimes the only way to get your message across, but most non-violent forms of protest involve a lack of common courtesy. The whole point of many protests is to inconvenience as many people as possible. Perhaps that is the only way to get through to the masses, but it's irritating at times.

And yes people, I think that the civil rights movement produced things besides sunshine and rainbows.

That doesn't mean that it's not the right thing to do at times, and I've certainly been involved in some protests that inconvenienced people.

The kid was rude. Kerry's reaction (or lack thereof) is immaterial as far as I'm concerned. The moderators of the discussion did the right thing by shutting off the microphone. The police then overreacted, as I think many campus officers do. I expect that they will most likely be looking for other work when this sorts itself out since they are conceiveably guilty of a first amendment violation since they are state employees. That said, the kid was being an asshole and deserved to be escorted from the premises for being disruptive and rude.

mixedmedia · 09-20-2007, 11:31 AM

Well, from what I could tell in the videos I saw John Kerry was attempting to answer the question when they started pulling the guy away. I don't understand why they couldn't just let him answer the question.

But that said, the guy was obviously grandstanding and is probably an ass.

And that said, I think the campus police handled the incident shoddily. There were six of them on the one guy for crying out loud. They should have attempted to shuffle him out of there and let the event continue at the very least.

Mojo_PeiPei · 09-20-2007, 11:33 AM

I think that dickhead got what he deserved. He was disrupted a private function, he was asked to leave. Just look at the video when they are attempting to escort him out. That screams of resisting arrest, he was putting swim moves and all types of jukes on the security. Even notice when he was on the ground, he was resisting the officers they were attempting to get his arms behind his back and he wouldn't let them. They were well within their rights to tase that little D bag.

Look at this video... The guy is bouncing around like a maniac, and this is where I was referring to his arms.

YouTube - Student Tasered

mixedmedia · 09-20-2007, 11:37 AM

Well there is some merit to a discussion about why they were escorting him out for asking questions.

SecretMethod70 · 09-20-2007, 11:42 AM

The guy was/is a dick. That said, the taser was an excessive use of force. I had originally thought his removal might have been as well, but then I learned that 1) he is well-known around campus as an attention whore and 2) what isn't seen before the video is that he runs past the rest of a line of questioners to get to the mic, and that's when the security guards come by him. Kerry agrees that he'll hear the guy's question, but the people he cut in front of need to go first (or something to that effect). When he gets his chance, that's what you see in the video.

Still, there's absolutely no need to use the taser when there are no less than 5 officers holding the person down. That weapon is used FAR too frequently lately.

Mojo_PeiPei · 09-20-2007, 11:43 AM

Best I can imagine he was disrupting the function. University security or police were well within their rights to remove him. He was being combative from the beginning around 2:50, they cut his mic a minute later and attempted to remove him. Besides this thing was completely preplanned by this gabroni.\

The point of the taser is to secure the suspect. He was resisting them on the ground so they couldn't cuff him, notice after a brief 2-3 second tase which is non-lethal and will have no long or short term affects outside a few seconds they were able to secure him.

roachboy · 09-20-2007, 11:51 AM

the use of a taser in that situation is excessive.
and it was bad theater.

mixedmedia · 09-20-2007, 11:51 AM

Well, this is an extreme case, but there is marked increase, since the Bush administration's tenure, in the amount of control exerted over questioners at political events such as this one. By both republicans and democrats. I find it rather alarming.

SecretMethod70 · 09-20-2007, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

Well, this is an extreme case, but there is marked increase, since the Bush administration's tenure, in the amount of control exerted over questioners at political events such as this one. By both republicans and democrats. I find it rather alarming.

Completely agreed, though I don't think this falls into that category. The guy was, in fact, being disruptive. Just not taser-level disruptive.

mixedmedia · 09-20-2007, 12:02 PM

I agree but, and this could just be hearsay because I can't remember where I heard it, I heard that this guy's questions were pre-screened and he was told he would be removed if he asked them.

SecretMethod70 · 09-20-2007, 12:03 PM

I haven't heard that. If true, that's concerning.

It's always a shame when jackasses are caught up in things like this...it makes it hard to know who to believe

mixedmedia · 09-20-2007, 12:03 PM

And, you know, outside of the Skull and Bones question, I don't think they were that far out of line.

Let me see if I can find it. I believe it was in a local paper.

Willravel · 09-20-2007, 12:04 PM

As a protester, I also find it alarming. I've been doing some looking at defenses against electroshock weapons and I've come across some information:
Thick clothing. Thickness that is the equivalent of a few pairs of jeans can substantially reduce the effectiveness of tasers. Enough clothing can render them almost useless. Note: this is not suggesting to resist arrest or police orders, just to protect yourself from an attack.
Don't let them tase your chest area. While tasers are considered non-lethal, they can kill you. (Tasers have been associated with almost 250 deaths)
Comply or avoid. If it's a cop, do what they say exactly, and don't do anything that could reasonably be considered any type of resisting behavior or speech. While most police officers have no interest in hurting people, some do. If it's not a cop, run for it.

SecretMethod70 · 09-20-2007, 12:04 PM

Not at all, but his cutting in front of line and unwillingness to stop talking and let Kerry answer was.

willravel: Don't waste your time. Pretty soon, they'll have a new method: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System

The_Jazz · 09-20-2007, 12:13 PM

Being rude is not a taserable offense. Being uncooperative is not a taserable offense.

Being a threat is.

I fail to see how this rude, uncooperative asshole became a threat by being obnoxious. He threw no punches and was unarmed.

If being rude and uncooperative were justification for a tasering then the majority of Americans would peel darts out of their chests at some point or another in their lifetimes. Including yours truly.

Willravel · 09-20-2007, 12:18 PM

The microwave gun, I've seen that. That, also, can be easily defended against. A mesh made from a conductive metal can be sown into the inside of a jacket. Of course, that would make tasing a bit of a problem.

mixedmedia · 09-20-2007, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

Not at all, but his cutting in front of line and unwillingness to stop talking and let Kerry answer was.

I can't find that article now of course and I don't see any other article that mentions it so it could have been one of those 'breaking news' faux pas (aka, half-truths and misinformation).

But, what I have read just now is that this guy didn't really butt ahead of anyone because Kerry was commenting at the time on what was to be the last question. What he did was bum-rush the microphone...and not in the PE way.

Bill O'Rights · 09-20-2007, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

The guy was, in fact, being disruptive. Just not taser-level disruptive.

Awwww, c'mon. You guys would whine if we hung you with a brand new rope. First it's; "Owww...these nightsticks and batons really hurt. Knock it off." Then you fussed about the rubber bullets. Then you didn't like the attack dogs. When we tried dousing you with firehoses, you cried 'cause your undies chaffed.

All silliness aside, though. If anyone needed a good tasing...it was this ridiculous fool. Oh yeah...he had it coming. If for absolutely no other good reason, then just out of general principle.

SecretMethod70 · 09-20-2007, 12:32 PM

Well hey, I'm all for punishing people who say "bro"...I just dunno about tasers

(I had an old roommate who would call people "bro." In fact, that become his nickname among me and my 2 other roommates. He wasn't well-liked

)

Willravel · 09-20-2007, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

All silliness aside, though. If anyone needed a good tasing...it was this ridiculous fool. Oh yeah...he had it coming. If for absolutely no other good reason, then just out of general principle.

It's nice to be funny, but he was not a threat to anyone, as has been said. All joking aside (the Florida thing, Jazz, had me belly laughing), the tasing was unreasonable.

roachboy · 09-20-2007, 12:42 PM

nice.

so bor: say i found your last post to be stupid, and you kinda obnoxious for both what you said and how you said it.
following your logic, i should be able to use a taser on you.
and to justify it, all i'd have to say is: in your last post, i think you were acting like an asshole. and your tone was disruptive.
and you'd be fine with that.

and nothing would change about it were i a kampus kop or just some guy on the street--because laws concerning the use of excessive force dont really apply if you find the guy at the receiving end of that force to be an asshole.

so it would follow that the police have a kind of taste enforcement function and if that function requires the use of tasers, then so be it.

but i am really not sure that i would want kampus kops--a problematic population--to be charged with taste enforcement.... i suspect it'd be hard to get anything done on campus for the sound of tasers going off more or less continually. but maybe that's why there are i-pods. "la la la i cant hear you..."

i'd rather kampus kops played by the rules. they may be in the main kind of pissy....they may not be very good....they may act as though they hate you because you are a student or a faculty person....but they have guns and tasers and loud uniforms, and i just feel a whle lot better if i can understand these very macho "security professionals" as constrained by some rules.

just saying...

mixedmedia · 09-20-2007, 12:42 PM

Yes, in general I don't throw my support politically behind guys who say 'bro' or 'bra.'

Willravel · 09-20-2007, 12:48 PM

George Washington said bro. So did Gandhi.

RB, I *think* BOR was kidding. I hope. If not, then I hope no one ever gives him a taser.

roachboy · 09-20-2007, 12:50 PM

i was joking as well, will.

i figure that the logical reponse to my post would be to taser me.

Rekna · 09-20-2007, 12:51 PM

This guy is probably lucky he got tased and taken out otherwise some of the people there would have probably beat his head in after it was over.

Plan9 · 09-20-2007, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Awwww, c'mon. You guys would whine if we hung you with a brand new rope. First it's; "Owww...these nightsticks and batons really hurt. Knock it off." Then you fussed about the rubber bullets. Then you didn't like the attack dogs. When we tried dousing you with firehoses, you cried 'cause your undies chaffed.

All silliness aside, though. If anyone needed a good tasing...it was this ridiculous fool. Oh yeah...he had it coming. If for absolutely no other good reason, then just out of general principle.

HAHAHAHA!

I second that vote.

Where was the boiling pitch and bamboo slivers under the fingernails? Oh, yeah... IT WAS REPLACED BY THE TASER.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

i was joking as well, will.

i figure that the logical reponse to my post would be to taser me.

Shit, I just spit PowerAde on my keyboard, RB.

Mojo_PeiPei · 09-20-2007, 01:36 PM

Does nobody recognize the fact that the guy was resisting the police? Its not about being a threat, he was not complying with police orders. In cases such as this compliance = tazing, this idiot was obviously refusing all verbal cues which I'm sure he had ample warning, he obviously was wrestling with the police since six police where unable to secure his hands.

If this instance was so egregious, has anybody heard about any action being taken against the cops? I mean I'm sure it wouldn't be hard being on video and in an auditorium full of people including a US senator.

Slims · 09-20-2007, 01:39 PM

I don't see the problem. The guy was resisting arrest and was struggling. If you notice in the video, they warn him that if he doesn't do what they ask they are going to tase him. Then, he struggles and tries to get to his feet, and wrenches an arm free right before he gets tased, which only lasts for a second or two. Then he whines like a little bitch for the rest of the video.

The taser seems like a safe way to get him to comply without risking injury to him or the officers. He was struggling too much for them to subdue him, and they were going to have to escalate force and risk an injury. The taser was a good alternative...it put him back on his ass and they could deal with him.

I mean seriously, the guy was resisting arrest and they didn't hit him with a baton, strike him, etc. Instead, they tried to wrestle him under control and failing that they tased him. I don't think I would have had that much patience.

The_Jazz · 09-20-2007, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

i was joking as well, will.

i figure that the logical reponse to my post would be to taser me.

The logical response to this thread is to tase everyone. Who's first?

Plan9 · 09-20-2007, 01:43 PM

(takes his shirt off)

YOU AIN'T GONNA GET ME, SUCKAS!

pig · 09-20-2007, 01:47 PM

i don't know...i find it hard to believe that those chaps felt under particular threat from this kid. there were 5 or 6 of them, and he was on the ground...i have to say that i suspect they were a tad pissed off at him for being a dick. which is understandable. however, the people i want holding the shiny gizmos that make the tingle-tingle feeling are precisely the people who wouldn't let being pissed off at a college kid know-it-all smartass goad them into something this stupid. regardless of what you think about it - if i was a rent-a-cop campus guy, and i knew john kerry was on stage and thus might suspect there could be some media coverage...i'd tie the kid up or sit on him or whatever, then drag him.

then tase the everloving shit out of him, if you're going to do it. but don't do it on camera, and give him exactly what you have to know he wants...

or better yet, just don't tase him. i'd rather have cop-type guys a little quicker between the ears than that. makes the sec look bad damnit.

/fuck tennessee and florida

//GO COCKS!!!

Willravel · 09-20-2007, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

Does nobody recognize the fact that the guy was resisting the police?

Resisting arrest = charge, but it means that you must be arrested (I didn't hear miranda rights)
Resisting police... I don't know what that means.

The_Jazz · 09-20-2007, 01:57 PM

Right. I forgot to add that all South Carolina fans should also be tased because of their association with Visor Boy/Spurrier. Matter of fact, we should add in Alabama, Georgia, Auburn and LSU fans to the mix while we're at it. Pig I think we can agree to leave out Vandy, Mississippi State and Kentucky since it's no fun to torture the miserable.

I agree with you otherwise. The right thing to do would have been to take the guy outside then tase him. I don't see anything wrong with removing him bodily from the auditorium for being the rude dick he was. The tasing could have waited until they had him outside.

uncle phil · 09-20-2007, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

George Washington said bro. So did Gandhi.

op cit?

pig · 09-20-2007, 02:20 PM

isn't this the same thing, or almost the same thing, as the kid in cali that got popped earlier this year? i think the arguments are predominantly the same here as there. not to cut off discussion, but this is going to eventually come to:

1. are tasers really 'non-lethal' or not
2. where the line is
3. what affect being on school grounds should have
4. were these particular cops/guards really making 'all the right moves' by juicing him?

/only a cluster of fucking retards would adopt 'rocky fucking top' as a fight song. siva assslapping vishnu, if that's not a cry for cultural education, i don't know what is. i'll take visor boy over phil 'please don't fire me yet' fulmer anyday. :P

Willravel · 09-20-2007, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle phil

op cit?

I was kidding.

Jesus also said bro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pig

isn't this the same thing, or almost the same thing, as the kid in cali that got popped earlier this year? i think the arguments are predominantly the same here as there. not to cut off discussion, but this is going to eventually come to:

1. are tasers really 'non-lethal' or not
2. where the line is
3. what affect being on school grounds should have
4. were these particular cops/guards really making 'all the right moves' by juicing him?

It started heading in the direction of how to protect yourself from microwave weapons, but it stopped. Unfortunately.

09-20-2007, 11:27 AM	#5 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	I heard about it the next day from my brother-in-law who was there. He heard the commotion but didn't see anything. I should also point out that I think, as a Tennessee fan, that all Florida fans should be tased on general prinicple, especially after debacle on Saturday. All joking aside, one of the negative things that I think that the civil rights movement started and that the general protesting community picked up on is a lack of civility. Yes, that is sometimes the only way to get your message across, but most non-violent forms of protest involve a lack of common courtesy. The whole point of many protests is to inconvenience as many people as possible. Perhaps that is the only way to get through to the masses, but it's irritating at times. And yes people, I think that the civil rights movement produced things besides sunshine and rainbows. That doesn't mean that it's not the right thing to do at times, and I've certainly been involved in some protests that inconvenienced people. The kid was rude. Kerry's reaction (or lack thereof) is immaterial as far as I'm concerned. The moderators of the discussion did the right thing by shutting off the microphone. The police then overreacted, as I think many campus officers do. I expect that they will most likely be looking for other work when this sorts itself out since they are conceiveably guilty of a first amendment violation since they are state employees. That said, the kid was being an asshole and deserved to be escorted from the premises for being disruptive and rude. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

09-20-2007, 11:31 AM	#6 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Well, from what I could tell in the videos I saw John Kerry was attempting to answer the question when they started pulling the guy away. I don't understand why they couldn't just let him answer the question. But that said, the guy was obviously grandstanding and is probably an ass. And that said, I think the campus police handled the incident shoddily. There were six of them on the one guy for crying out loud. They should have attempted to shuffle him out of there and let the event continue at the very least. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

09-20-2007, 11:37 AM	#8 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Well there is some merit to a discussion about why they were escorting him out for asking questions. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

09-20-2007, 11:42 AM	#9 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	The guy was/is a dick. That said, the taser was an excessive use of force. I had originally thought his removal might have been as well, but then I learned that 1) he is well-known around campus as an attention whore and 2) what isn't seen before the video is that he runs past the rest of a line of questioners to get to the mic, and that's when the security guards come by him. Kerry agrees that he'll hear the guy's question, but the people he cut in front of need to go first (or something to that effect). When he gets his chance, that's what you see in the video. Still, there's absolutely no need to use the taser when there are no less than 5 officers holding the person down. That weapon is used FAR too frequently lately. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

09-20-2007, 11:43 AM	#10 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Best I can imagine he was disrupting the function. University security or police were well within their rights to remove him. He was being combative from the beginning around 2:50, they cut his mic a minute later and attempted to remove him. Besides this thing was completely preplanned by this gabroni.\ The point of the taser is to secure the suspect. He was resisting them on the ground so they couldn't cuff him, notice after a brief 2-3 second tase which is non-lethal and will have no long or short term affects outside a few seconds they were able to secure him. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

09-20-2007, 11:12 AM	#2 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I saw this on Digg the other day. The tasing appears to be quite excessive, from the context given. The kid was being very rude (stop giving liberals such a bad image, people), but he didn't appear to need anywhere near the force used by the officers. Not only that, but Kerry was pretty cowardly to dodge that question so much. He won the damn election and laid down as Bush took it. At least Al Gore fought a bit. The whole thing is a bit frustrating.

09-20-2007, 11:14 AM	#3 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	This guy was trying to get this to happen. There are reports that he was calm afterwards asking if there will be camera's where they are going etc. Then as soon as there were cameras he starting yelling and screaming again. He wanted attention, intentionally goaded the police (even before barging into the front of the line). Police have a hard enough time, we shouldn't be intentionally making it harder. Also if you look at the kids websites he does this kind of stuff all the time. I think this is a non-story. Oh yeah and they tazed him because he was fighting and wouldn't let them put handcuffs on him.

09-20-2007, 11:51 AM	#11 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	the use of a taser in that situation is excessive. and it was bad theater. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-20-2007, 11:51 AM	#12 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Well, this is an extreme case, but there is marked increase, since the Bush administration's tenure, in the amount of control exerted over questioners at political events such as this one. By both republicans and democrats. I find it rather alarming. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

09-20-2007, 12:02 PM	#14 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	I agree but, and this could just be hearsay because I can't remember where I heard it, I heard that this guy's questions were pre-screened and he was told he would be removed if he asked them. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

09-20-2007, 12:03 PM	#15 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	I haven't heard that. If true, that's concerning. It's always a shame when jackasses are caught up in things like this...it makes it hard to know who to believe __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

09-20-2007, 12:03 PM	#16 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	And, you know, outside of the Skull and Bones question, I don't think they were that far out of line. Let me see if I can find it. I believe it was in a local paper. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce Last edited by mixedmedia; 09-20-2007 at 12:04 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

09-20-2007, 12:04 PM	#17 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	As a protester, I also find it alarming. I've been doing some looking at defenses against electroshock weapons and I've come across some information: Thick clothing. Thickness that is the equivalent of a few pairs of jeans can substantially reduce the effectiveness of tasers. Enough clothing can render them almost useless. Note: this is not suggesting to resist arrest or police orders, just to protect yourself from an attack. Don't let them tase your chest area. While tasers are considered non-lethal, they can kill you. (Tasers have been associated with almost 250 deaths) Comply or avoid. If it's a cop, do what they say exactly, and don't do anything that could reasonably be considered any type of resisting behavior or speech. While most police officers have no interest in hurting people, some do. If it's not a cop, run for it.

09-20-2007, 12:04 PM	#18 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	Not at all, but his cutting in front of line and unwillingness to stop talking and let Kerry answer was. willravel: Don't waste your time. Pretty soon, they'll have a new method: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling Last edited by SecretMethod70; 09-20-2007 at 12:07 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

09-20-2007, 12:13 PM	#19 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Being rude is not a taserable offense. Being uncooperative is not a taserable offense. Being a threat is. I fail to see how this rude, uncooperative asshole became a threat by being obnoxious. He threw no punches and was unarmed. If being rude and uncooperative were justification for a tasering then the majority of Americans would peel darts out of their chests at some point or another in their lifetimes. Including yours truly. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

09-20-2007, 12:18 PM	#20 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	The microwave gun, I've seen that. That, also, can be easily defended against. A mesh made from a conductive metal can be sown into the inside of a jacket. Of course, that would make tasing a bit of a problem.

09-20-2007, 12:32 PM	#23 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	Well hey, I'm all for punishing people who say "bro"...I just dunno about tasers (I had an old roommate who would call people "bro." In fact, that become his nickname among me and my 2 other roommates. He wasn't well-liked ) __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

09-20-2007, 12:42 PM	#25 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	nice. so bor: say i found your last post to be stupid, and you kinda obnoxious for both what you said and how you said it. following your logic, i should be able to use a taser on you. and to justify it, all i'd have to say is: in your last post, i think you were acting like an asshole. and your tone was disruptive. and you'd be fine with that. and nothing would change about it were i a kampus kop or just some guy on the street--because laws concerning the use of excessive force dont really apply if you find the guy at the receiving end of that force to be an asshole. so it would follow that the police have a kind of taste enforcement function and if that function requires the use of tasers, then so be it. but i am really not sure that i would want kampus kops--a problematic population--to be charged with taste enforcement.... i suspect it'd be hard to get anything done on campus for the sound of tasers going off more or less continually. but maybe that's why there are i-pods. "la la la i cant hear you..." i'd rather kampus kops played by the rules. they may be in the main kind of pissy....they may not be very good....they may act as though they hate you because you are a student or a faculty person....but they have guns and tasers and loud uniforms, and i just feel a whle lot better if i can understand these very macho "security professionals" as constrained by some rules. just saying... __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 09-20-2007 at 12:44 PM..

09-20-2007, 12:42 PM	#26 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Yes, in general I don't throw my support politically behind guys who say 'bro' or 'bra.' __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

09-20-2007, 12:48 PM	#27 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	George Washington said bro. So did Gandhi. RB, I think BOR was kidding. I hope. If not, then I hope no one ever gives him a taser.

09-20-2007, 12:50 PM	#28 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i was joking as well, will. i figure that the logical reponse to my post would be to taser me. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 09-20-2007 at 01:06 PM..

09-20-2007, 12:51 PM	#29 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	This guy is probably lucky he got tased and taken out otherwise some of the people there would have probably beat his head in after it was over.

09-20-2007, 01:36 PM	#31 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Does nobody recognize the fact that the guy was resisting the police? Its not about being a threat, he was not complying with police orders. In cases such as this compliance = tazing, this idiot was obviously refusing all verbal cues which I'm sure he had ample warning, he obviously was wrestling with the police since six police where unable to secure his hands. If this instance was so egregious, has anybody heard about any action being taken against the cops? I mean I'm sure it wouldn't be hard being on video and in an auditorium full of people including a US senator. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

09-20-2007, 01:39 PM	#32 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	I don't see the problem. The guy was resisting arrest and was struggling. If you notice in the video, they warn him that if he doesn't do what they ask they are going to tase him. Then, he struggles and tries to get to his feet, and wrenches an arm free right before he gets tased, which only lasts for a second or two. Then he whines like a little bitch for the rest of the video. The taser seems like a safe way to get him to comply without risking injury to him or the officers. He was struggling too much for them to subdue him, and they were going to have to escalate force and risk an injury. The taser was a good alternative...it put him back on his ass and they could deal with him. I mean seriously, the guy was resisting arrest and they didn't hit him with a baton, strike him, etc. Instead, they tried to wrestle him under control and failing that they tased him. I don't think I would have had that much patience. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

09-20-2007, 01:43 PM	#34 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	(takes his shirt off) YOU AIN'T GONNA GET ME, SUCKAS! __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

09-20-2007, 01:47 PM	#35 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	i don't know...i find it hard to believe that those chaps felt under particular threat from this kid. there were 5 or 6 of them, and he was on the ground...i have to say that i suspect they were a tad pissed off at him for being a dick. which is understandable. however, the people i want holding the shiny gizmos that make the tingle-tingle feeling are precisely the people who wouldn't let being pissed off at a college kid know-it-all smartass goad them into something this stupid. regardless of what you think about it - if i was a rent-a-cop campus guy, and i knew john kerry was on stage and thus might suspect there could be some media coverage...i'd tie the kid up or sit on him or whatever, then drag him. then tase the everloving shit out of him, if you're going to do it. but don't do it on camera, and give him exactly what you have to know he wants... or better yet, just don't tase him. i'd rather have cop-type guys a little quicker between the ears than that. makes the sec look bad damnit. /fuck tennessee and florida //GO COCKS!!! __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

09-20-2007, 01:57 PM	#37 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Right. I forgot to add that all South Carolina fans should also be tased because of their association with Visor Boy/Spurrier. Matter of fact, we should add in Alabama, Georgia, Auburn and LSU fans to the mix while we're at it. Pig I think we can agree to leave out Vandy, Mississippi State and Kentucky since it's no fun to torture the miserable. I agree with you otherwise. The right thing to do would have been to take the guy outside then tase him. I don't see anything wrong with removing him bodily from the auditorium for being the rude dick he was. The tasing could have waited until they had him outside. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

09-20-2007, 02:20 PM	#39 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	isn't this the same thing, or almost the same thing, as the kid in cali that got popped earlier this year? i think the arguments are predominantly the same here as there. not to cut off discussion, but this is going to eventually come to: 1. are tasers really 'non-lethal' or not 2. where the line is 3. what affect being on school grounds should have 4. were these particular cops/guards really making 'all the right moves' by juicing him? /only a cluster of fucking retards would adopt 'rocky fucking top' as a fight song. siva assslapping vishnu, if that's not a cry for cultural education, i don't know what is. i'll take visor boy over phil 'please don't fire me yet' fulmer anyday. :P __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style