tecoyah

It's no suprise, not even a disapointment anymore. But this does pretty much remove any meaning from one of the most important pieces of legislation we have for keeping tabs on wrongdoing.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20387828/

albania

So the office of administration has been subject to the freedom of information act before but now they suddenly realized it shouldn't be. This only makes me wonder more what it is they are trying to hide.

Rekna

This administration is so incredibly corrupt. How can anyone still support these Orwellian tactics that they use? This administration has single handedly done more damage to this great nation than any group of terrorists could have ever hoped to have done.

Bill O'Rights

While that's fun to say, and I certainly don't disagree, I'm curious as to your reasoning. Exactly how has this administration, corrupt and as inept as it is, done more damage to this country than any group of terrorists could hope to?

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Willravel

Bullshit, of course they're subject to FOIA.
Outside of these exemptions, ALL federal government agencies and branches are subject the the FOIA.

Bill O'Rights

Ok...color me a dumbass, but why is geological information exempted from the Freedom Of Information Act? Do the Republicans, and the democrats, not want us to know from under what rock they found their candidates?

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

albania

So you don't poison the water supply, I would think.

Willravel

I'd like to submit a request to find out the location of black sites all over Europe, please.

That's why.

dc_dux

At the very basic level, terrorists attack people and property.

Bush has attacked the core values of our democratic system:

* warrantless wiretaps of citizens, spying on anti-war protest groups, prohibiting anti-Bush citizens from access to Bush public appearances, and other infrigements on the most basic of our constitutional rights....

* restricting the public's access to government information through FOIA restrictions, increased use of national security classifications, violations of the Presidential Records Act...

* abuse of separation of powers with excessive "signing statements" and "excutive orders" to circumvent laws and the will of Congress, extending "excutive privilege well beyond the traditonal application to a Pres and personal advisors...

That's just the tip of the iceberg.

------
BTW...Someone should tell Bush that the WH website lists the WH Office of Administration as subject to FOIA:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/oa/foia/handbook.html

I wonder how quickly they will scrub the site.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Rekna

I view they have done more damage than any group of terrorists by failing to uphold their oath the the constitution. The constitution was the foundation of this nation. This nation was created for the people by the people. With this administration the people now come last. The people were always supposed to be the ultimate catch all for accountability. This is why bill of rights contains the freedom of the press. The founding fathers wanted to ensure that there was always a free flow of information so that the people could hold their officals accountable. Now this administration is ignoring all laws and tradition and saying you can't have any information on us because we are accountable to no one. Add in the politicization of the justice department. No longer is justice about the rules of law instead it is now about the rules of the party. This is the foundation of turning this country into a police state.

In addition, the Bush administration has repeatedly miss stepped in it's appointments. It has bypassed congressional authority and made recess appointments many of which have had dire consequences. For example Richard Stickler. Since he took office as the director of mine saftey the number of mining accidents has risen for the first time in 100 years! Congress (both Republicans and Democrats) opposed his nomination because he had a horrible track record on mine safety. About 6 weeks ago Stickler approved recess mining for the mine in Crandel Canyon despite concerns from many people within the mining community. 3 weeks later we saw what happened. Now we have miners who will be entombed in the mountain because of his decision to put profits over safety... that doesn't sound like a good director of mine safety. This is just one example of recess appointments that have caused trouble. There is a reason congress is supposed to confirm people. The legacy that Bush leaves behind is Cronyism and Politics.

Bush once claimed he was a uniter and not a divider.... which do you think he is? This country is so polarized right now that people are unable to have intellegable discussions about politics without being insulted, called a traitor, or called a terrorist sympathizer. The founding fathers wanted people to be able to freely discuss there positions but that is not possible today. If one says we should get out of Iraq they are insulted with comments like you want to cut and run. This is NOT good for America.

This country has gone to hell under this administration through it's abuse of power, ineptness, and unwillingness to consider others opinions.... This administration released a hand book in 2002 about how to keep protesters out of the site of the president and the media. It contained advice like arrest them and drop the charges later. What ever happened to free speech?

In addition there have been record deficits which will come back and destroy this nation in the future. Bush has effectively doubled the national debt since he took office. You do not need to be a financial expert to know that it is a bad idea to keep borrowing over and over. We see a major problem. Couple this with the fact that most of it is owned by China a country that isn't very friendly to it's people or the rest of the world. We are forever in their debt now and this is a very dangerous spot to be in.

I could continue this rant for ever and I apologize for how it jumped around but I have a firehose of reasons and only a short time to post this. But on a final note I want to note that more lives and money has been lost in Iraq then from the attacks on 9/11. In addition, because we miss used our sympathy from the world following 9/11 to fight a war against Iraq for illegitimate reasons the world has turned against us and the terrorists are able to more easily recruit people than ever. Bush has single handedly weakened America while at the same time bolstering the terrorists.

albania

I don't think black sites have much to do with geology, did you mistake geology for geography?

Bill O'Rights

'Nuff said right there.

Shhhh.
[whisper]Public school[/whisper]

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

JumpinJesus

Sudden, violent attacks like 9/11 and Pearl Harbor are shocking and get our attention like nothing else can and we spring into action to retaliate or respond.


Shesus and I were driving along a state highway when we came across this gorgeous river canyon. It was nowhere near the scale of the Grand Canyon - in fact one might even doubt its being called a canyon - but it was secluded and quaint and quite beautiful. We walked along the rocks and tossed some stones into the river below, which was about 100 ft below us. After a bit, my daughter commented, "I bet millions of years ago, this is just what the Grand Canyon looked like."

The current administration is slowly, slowly eroding away many of the ideals that we held firm to, turning our nation into a near police-state all under the guise of security. As a nation, we have allowed it to happen because we don't want another attack.

When all is said and done, we really aren't all that free anymore. We can't travel freely within our own borders without being subjected to random searches and seizures by agents of the government. Sure, some will argue that we don't have to fly, we could easily drive, but that's precisely my point. In a free country, why would we be subjected to this at any time by anyone? Why does certain forms of travel demand that we subject ourselves to warrantless searches?

We can't really say what we want. Sure, people will say that the government can't stop us, but private companies have every right to, but that's my point. In a free country, do we really allow corporations to dictate what we're allowed to say? People are fired from jobs for saying the "wrong" things. And we allow it because we say it's a private company doing the censoring, and we say that's perfectly all right.

We give up our freedoms one at a time, and we do it willingly and even defend the entities stifling those freedoms. This baffles me to no end: that we'll defend those entities and their efforts to stifle us.

This slow erosion, over the course of the past 6 or 7 years, has resulted in what many believe is more damage than what the terrorists caused.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Willravel

Oh snap. Good catch. This is what happens when I skip breakfast...

Yeah geological makes me scratch my head, too...

JumpinJesus

It's for when all the oil's gone, and we've turned this place into Thunderdome, only our leaders will know where the oil is.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Rekna

Maybe the geological is so that people can't freedom of information act uses of certain elements (namely the radioactive ones).

Another possibility is they don't want people to be able to FOIA lansat data from USGS over restricted areas (IE Area 51).

Bill O'Rights

First...know that I do not disagree with anything that you wrote. However, with that in mind, certainly you, of all people, understand that in order for effective security (rather than the illusion) to be in place, there comes along with it a substantial level of inconvenience. Is there an acceptable balance? If so...where is it?

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

roachboy

there has long been a tension between more authoritarian and more democratic-ish elements within the us--think the "national security state" that was rationalized by the cold war. the more authoritarian strain surfaces across arguments that "security" and the rule of law can be antithetical. within the general framework of the cold war, this claim was kind of spread out in that for some reason the symbiotic relationship between the us and ussr (which worked to the benefit of the ussr, which i think would have imploded much sooner had the us not provided it with a reason to divert so much of its resources into military production and to use that to maintain internal repression) seemed to require it. and of course, there are nukes, which seem to be the ultimate rationale for bypassing the rule of law. they exemplify it. and nothing functions as a better expression of the internal logic of the national security state itself than thermo-nuclear weapon systems. mutally assured destruction, with the result that the only things left standing would be little tyrants in bunkers far underground controlling an imaginary country that they themselves had reduced to ash.

anyway, the bush people are a direct extension of this authoritarian aspect of the cold war american state--the ugly semi-secret side of it, the one that lives inside the hallucination that its lunatic policies "won the cold war". they are also an expression of political incoherence--unable to break away from the logic of the cold war, the bush people have used the 9/11/2001 attack to resurrect it in a new and improved form--no longer is there a discrete or even extant Other--now we are in a permanent war on ghosts.


it gets wearisome to post the same thing over and over again, but AGAIN: the bush people are committed to using a permanent state of emergency to advance a politics that tends toward dictatorship. in the name of democracy of course. but a state of emergency, as carl schmitt argued with respect to older forms of fascism, requires a "decider" and not the complexity and slowness of anything like an operational democratic system (or its shallow inadequate parody, which we live under, but which--for all its faults--is certainly preferable to bushworld).

and the article in the op is the logical extension of the cheneyclaims that the office of the vice president is not part of the executive branch.

this politics of the state of emergency---screen name="the war on terror"--function=to create the illusion of such a state of emergency---is not new. the only thing the bush people have managed really is to force all of us to confront it. and we confront it by watching television and making snarky posts in messageboards.

and of course capitalism trembles.

i could connect this tendency to run away from change to any number of underlying cultural processes in the united states. start with the debilitatingly reactionary educational system which is geared far more toward inculcating and maintaining political docility than it is to helping people learn how to face and cope with change. (aside: this running away from change is duplicated--NOT addressed--by the privatization of education). go from there. its easy. its depressing.

the only hope i maintain is that this period will function ex post facto as a massive demonstration of every last reason why fear of change and its correlate in the collapse of education into ideological management (to keep with the one example above) is a very very bad idea and so will open onto a space of radical transformation. if it doesnt, then we are in for a long slow collapse.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

JumpinJesus

Unfortunately, this is a more difficult question than I'm probably qualified to answer, but I tend to look back at our days pre-Woodrow Wilson and we seemed to do quite well for ourselves when we stayed the hell out of everyone else's business. Maybe if we went back to a little more of that, we wouldn't need so much security from people who seem to hate our freedom so much.

Oh, and I know you feel that way, but it's still fun to argue the point.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

roachboy

the world before woodrow wilson--so before world war 1--was a very different place. the outlines of the american empire started to be set up after world war 1, mostly because the us was not fucked up physically by the war, not as battered in human terms by it (staying out of the war until 1917 had its advantages) and not as drained financially.

the structures that underpinned the inter-war international system didnt work so well as it turned out: so a different, more powerful system (well, system of systems) was set up during the last years of world war 2 (1944 is a convenient marker--bretton woods---for the start of it etc)..the post-1945 international system was obviously american-dominated--think about the bretton woods order, which pegged international currency rates to the dollar and set up mechanisms largely based in the us for stabilizing currencies.

another index: think about the expansion of automobile usage, when it happened and what it has entailed.
think about the infrastructures that are required for the american transportation model to function.

i could go on and on about this.

the point: there's no going back.
it's pointless to even dream about it.
it isnt even a pipe dream. it is nothing.

think about what would be required for the americans to try it.
there's have to be the magical growth of huge domestic petroleum production. which means there'd have to be a fuckload more oil within the us than there presently is. which means either (a) magic or (b) some other way of bypassing the millions of years required for oil to happen or (c) some functional alternate fuel. and lubricant. and a substitute for plastic and all the other materials that are based in or rely on petroleum by-products.
or
an abandonment of the automobile as the primary transportation option.

but there's more, even in a messageboard: consider how tightly linked are the illusion of class mobility in the states and individual physical mobility in a car...

and consider the total inflexibility of the dominant ideology in the state on this correlation alone. just think about it. and this is on ONE issue (transportation) and there are a LOT of such issues (think food supply).

it aint happening, this isolationist turn.
this sure as hell doesnt mean that therefore the present systems are coherent or sustainable--it just means that running away into rerun of the pre-1914 order aint happening.

and even then (pre-1914), there was an international system--always has been something like that at one level or another (long-distance trade is a very old phenomenon, dontcha know--far older than the nation-state idea, which is a 19th century production)--but the americans didnt run it--and given that the way american history is taught would lead you to believe that such global interactions only started when the americans woke up to them, it follows that (despite all evidence, despite all reality) americans who understand the past through the ideological frame of us history alone can actually believe that transnational trade is something new and that they invented it.

this turns into one of any number of arguments against the idea of nationalist history. but that's another matter.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

fastom

Now that is blindingly obvious to anybody that uses their brain that Bush has grossly abused his powers and used 9/11 as the excuse for most of it why do some of you still not think he had a hand in the whole thing?

Bush looking for "the terrorists" is like OJ looking for the real killer. Best to start with a mirror.