05-07-2007, 01:53 PM | #201 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Read this. It will explain what I've been saying for years. |
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05-08-2007, 11:42 AM | #202 (permalink) | |||||
Banned
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loquitur, I want to start by offering an apology to you for using your quote as an example. If I could think of another way to make my point, I would, but quoting you....someone who I do respect for your willingness to participate in discussions on this forum....you post what you think,,,you don't play games...
seems to me to be a clear way to respond to your post on the "Impeach Cheney" thread, and to respond to roachboy's statements, and most importantly to briefly and clearly examine the schism in American politics that might provide answers to why the Bush administration is still (permitted to be...) in power, and still at war in Iraq, Quote:
<center> <img src="http://www.ardemgaz.com/prev/central/images/central2.jpg"><br> Orval Faubus, called out the National Guard to try to block integration four decades ago. "That's when I knew that they were just not going to let me go to school ... that they were not there to protect me, too, like the other students," remembers Elizabeth Eckford, one of the "Little Rock Nine." She was 15 at the time. Instead, Guardsmen turned Eckford toward dozens of rabid hecklers. http://www.cnn.com/US/9709/24/little.rock/ <img src="http://www.ardemgaz.com/prev/central/images/central1.jpg"><br> Instead, Guardsmen turned Eckford toward dozens of rabid hecklers. Among them was Hazel Bryan Massery. "I was behind her and the crowd was jeering saying: 'go home nigger ... go back to Africa' and things like that," Massery recalls. http://www.cnn.com/US/9709/24/little.rock/ <img src="http://www.queervisions.com/img/cowardlykick.jpg"><br> .......Nineteen days later, the nine tried again but were driven out by the mob. Still photographer Will Counts, who nearly won a Pulitzer Prize for his shot of black reporter Alex Wilson being kicked, recalls "They were yelling: 'Run, nigger, run.' And he said: 'I fought for my country in the war and I'm not running from you' -- and he didn't." http://www.cnn.com/US/9709/24/little.rock/ <img src="http://www.americaslibrary.gov/assets/aa/eisenhower/aa_eisenhower_littlerock_3_e.jpg"><br> The Little Rock crisis was the first time the federal government had enforced court-ordered integration. It took 1,200 troops of the 101st Airborne division, sent by President Dwight Eisenhower, to accomplish the task. Eisenhower's action in the showdown set the stage for school desegregation programs across America. Ernest Green was among that first handful of black students. "Victory was at hand. I thought I had finally cracked it," he recalls. It was a victory indeed, and it marked the first time that the federal government used its full power in enforcing the desegregation laws of the land. http://www.cnn.com/US/9709/24/little.rock/ <img src="http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/civilrights/images/cr0013s.jpg"> Quote:
....by 1980, a republican presidential candidate had "progressed from Eisenhower's 1957 executive decisions on civil rights, to this: Quote:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...4&postcount=22 <b>....and now, from Eisenhower in 1957, it is reported that we've come full circle, toi this:</b> Quote:
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05-08-2007, 12:02 PM | #203 (permalink) |
spudly
Location: Ellay
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We're getting to the point where some of this material belongs in a different thread. Please try to stay on topic here and direct marginally related material to other conversations.
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam |
05-08-2007, 12:55 PM | #204 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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ok so after a bike ride....
i think host's last post is entirely germaine: the only potential confusion lay in the fact that he may be responding to something i put in dc's thread earlier today as much as to what i may have put up here. anyone who tries to think about the american situation in systemic terms sooner or later gets driven back into its sorry history. what differs amongst us is what each takes to be the canary in the mineshaft. from my viewpoint, much of what host outlines above can be linked to the retreat into the historically dangerous and politically bankrupt notion of nation or national community, which drags all the problems of defining the "us" as over against the "them" back into play--in the present context, the "us" is pretty fucking small as a category--if you are poor you are out; if you are muslim you are out; if you operate in any political framework that is not reactionary you are out.....on and on...all this in what amounts to an exercise in (political) auto-therapy for the conservative set. but if that was all that is happening, then the question would be tedious--potentially horrific in its consequences, but conceptually tedious (i know this is a problematic statement, but such is my mood at the moment): it leans on the characteristics of the shared ideological set that all of us who pass through the american educational system have drilled into us, the center of which is the confusion of what is historically created with what is given in nature--so a category like "nation" comes to be presented in the same way as that of "a rock." since we do not imagine that we make "a rock" (though in a sense we do given that we perceive the putative referent across the organizing features of the category "rock" which are simply those of nouns, enframed by syntacic regularities, individuated ideologically blah blah blah)...both "nation" and "rock" then are given---this is debilitating intellectually because it collapses a political category into a horizon of that-which-is-given-in-advance such that problems attending the meaning and status of nation become problems of the "natural" order of things. this is a condition of possibility for american conservative volk-bildung and the sacrificial rituals that generate its affective power. this is a condition of possibility of the paralysis that i think is a general ideological characteristic of this particular historical moment. i dont think the implosion of the popular support that the bush people might at one point or another managed somehow to garner has anything to do with a large-scale rethinking of any categories on the order of nation: i think it has almost entirely to do with the simple fact that bushco. fucked up. while i was riding, i kept thinking that a post parallel to host's above might be in order, something that outlined the contempible history of american military actions launched under false pretenses, from the enormous litany of actions carried out against native americans to the spanish-american war (remember the maine indeed) to vietnam to iraq in order to pose the question--again--of why it is that there is apparently no law that makes it criminal for the american political apparatus to launch a fucking war on false pretenses. hell, you could even put the american civil war onto that list: from a certain viewpoint a war of economic domination that legitimated itself across the call to "free the slaves"--a goal that was made as formal as is imaginable by the shabby and repellent process of "reconstruction"--a period that still---somehow--floats around outside the Glorious History of the Republic just as every other problematic aspect of the history of the united states does from the viewpoint of "civics" ideology fobbed off as accounts of the past in primary and secondary school. you know, the crock of patriotic shit that the right wants to salvage in grand old gingrich stylee and make "objective" via standardized testing. once you make this move, it is hard not to arrive at extraordinarily cynical conclusions: there is no law criminalizing wars launched under false-to-dubious pretenses because "we" appear to like them--they are good for business--and we all know that what is good for capital is good for everyone, why just look at the Glorious History of Capitalism for a demonstration. and sometimes it seems to me that what makes the states interesting is entirely what happens DESPITE it, what goes on WITHIN AND AGAINST the dominant order in these strange spaces of cultural production that the dominant culture either co-opts or destroys (think real estate in cities).... but maybe it's like this everywhere all the time: if the dominant political and/or cultural logics were to actually occupy the whole of the terrain, everything would collapse. there is an interesting schema for thinking about capitalist relations of production that isolates a fundamental contradiction within them--the organization of production appears to be total, but in fact it relies on its own incompleteness to function at all--it cannot acknowledge the centrality of opposition to it, but it nonetheless feeds on it. the dominant ideology of capitalism is rooted on the pretense that its extent and control is total, when it is in fact nothing of the kind; transposed onto history, it is predicated on it being taken for a natural phenomenon when it is self-evidently a historical construct and a pretty incoherent one at that. we allow what happens to us. if we cannot imagine that another socio-political arrangement is possible, then we allow this one to continue. we make the world we live in even as we are quite sure we dont. we embody it, we repeat it, we are it. we are not bound by the past, even though we think we are. when we do nothing, we are making an ethical choice. i think that is the wrong choice. but at the same time, i understand the symbiotic relation between operating in opposition and the system itself---and sometimes it is tempting to do nothing--and sometimes i see that posting stuff here is just a way of structuring doing nothing. maybe it is. maybe it isnt. when this is interesting, it is a space for working issues out on the fly. when it isnt, it continues. sometimes i think the only reason i do this is because from time to time i can derive a bit of a therapeutic effect from dumping sentences someplace. sometimes i think that is entirely a waste of time and energy. and maybe it is. and maybe it isnt.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
05-09-2007, 05:37 AM | #205 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: NYC
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Host, in my line of work that would be an effective jury presentation, complete with pictures on an emotional topic invested with moral truth. Problem is, you're using it to explain or illustrate something that may (I think probably) have little do with it.
You're investing politics and government with an explanatory power for specific things that it doesn't have, and in my view at least <i><b>shouldn't</i></b> have. There are many possible explanations for lots of different phenomena that are going on, and what you are doing is tagging the current government with responsibility for everything going on that you don't like. Here is an example of why your reasoning on this is flawed. Can you name me three Jewish NASCAR drivers? You probably can't. I know I can't name even one. In fact, I'd bet there are no or almost no Jewish NASCAR drivers at all. I'd also bet that it would be silly to say that it's because of rampant anti-Semitism in NASCAR. Wouldn't you? My point simply being that there are lots of alternative explanations for why certain population pools look a certain way other than discrimination. I have my own theories about why the hiring in the civil rights division looks a certain way, but it's more speculation than anything else. Thing is, your explanation is speculative, too, and I'd submit it's probably counter-factual as well. Consider this: if 90+% of the black community is Democratic, how many of them will want to work in a Republican administration? The absence of dark faces in GOP is self-reinforcing in that way. We can argue about whether it's a good or bad thing for African Americans to be monolithically Democratic (I happen to think it's a bad thing, but I'm not black, so maybe I'm missing something), but it is a fact, and it has consequences. The shunning of people like Condoleeza Rice and Clarence Thomas as "race traitors" can't help these things. Roachboy, the virtue of America is that it doesn't wallow in the past, tries to learn from its mistakes and moves forward. Societies that wallow in the past tend to be stagnant and violent. I have no desire to be stagnant and violent. Our country benefits tremendously by allowing all its citizens of whatever background to participate in what society has to offer - if we make sure that that is what happens and continues to happen, we'll be fine. It's more relevant to me that we got rid of slavery (and sacrificed hundreds of thousands of lives to do it), that we eliminated Jim Crow and continue to enforce civil rights laws. Most human societies had slavery at some time or other and some still do, so it's less telling that we had it than that we eliminated it. Ditto for discrimination against those who are different. "Imperfect" is not a synonym for "evil." Finally, be very wary of seeing the entire world from inside yourself or inside your own country. We are not nearly as powerful as we think we are, and not everything that happens is in reaction to our thoughts and actions. That's a tempting form of political narcissism that should be avoided. One of the websites I like to read is called "<A HREF="http://www.overcomingbias.com/">Overcoming Bias</A>," and it analyzes the habits of mind people have that lead them astray in their reasoning. I'm always afraid I'm missing something, which is why I enjoy reading that website. Also, the authors are very smart and amusing. I highly recommend it. Last edited by loquitur; 05-09-2007 at 05:43 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
05-09-2007, 06:23 AM | #206 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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If she did, it is against the law. (prohibited personnel practices under the civil service act) and the question is whether she did it on her own, or at the direction of Gonzales or the White House. The House Judiciary Committee has also given her immunity, DOJ wont block it (link) and the committee is likely to call her in to testify, where if she "takes the 5th," she will face contempt charges. YOu have your reaons to explain the hiring "profile" of civil rights (and other DOJ career attorneys) and Host has his.......in any case, the public has the right to know if this administration, by the action of one individual or through direction of her superiors, has politicized the prosecutorial process beyond the law.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 05-09-2007 at 06:37 AM.. |
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05-09-2007, 06:29 AM | #207 (permalink) |
spudly
Location: Ellay
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If she's a loyal Bushie who was granted immunity, what's to stop her from falling on the sword and claiming that she was advancing her own interests? Sort of the opposite strategy of Libby....
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam |
05-09-2007, 07:08 AM | #209 (permalink) | |
has all her shots.
Location: Florida
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I agree, and personally, I find these sorts of questions about the possible infiltration of institutions charged with protecting our identification as a progressive society much more critical than questions about why we went to Iraq.
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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce |
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05-09-2007, 07:27 AM | #210 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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loquitor: i was in a curious mood yesterday and posted a couple things that went way past what i would normally put here. so i suspect that i was not clear (except to myself)---the argument you respond to is different from what you take it to be: i was trying to make a meta-history argument--talking about the status imputed to historical creations in primary and secondary school (for example)---as a way of describing something of the contemporary state of total ideological paralysis--which i think follows to a significant extent from the *relation to* history (as a natural phenomenon not as a social creation)--but i also tangled that up with a much more limited point concerning the question of how and why it is that launching a war on false pretenses is not exactly a criminal action--which invoked a different relation to the same topic. so the post was confusing.
that said, i really do not understand no. 205 from the word "finally" to the end. i cant tell who you are directing it at nor do i understand the point that you are trying to make with it. please explain. in my more paranoid moments, i wonder if the bush people's attempts to stack the doj with far right partisan hacks is linked to some fantasy coup d'etat scenario---the lynchpin of this is the role played in retro-legal philosophy by carl schmitt, particularly his critique of democratic process as an endless blah blah blah that cannot respond to a state of emergency--only a "decider" can do that. schmitt is a theorist of dictatorship. the alarming correlates: the administration seems incapable of distinguishing between political difficulties it experiences itself and notions of collective will--it takes itself as an embodiment of collective will. from a particular angle, you can see the gridlock in congress, set up by the bizarre results of the last elections, as a kind of ongoing demonstration of this blah blah blah insofar as the composition of both branches effectively makes paralysis inevitable. fortunately, the administrations structural incompetence has won out once again and this whole business is now exposed...but its meanings are kinda strange, difficult to sort out in a way. that's why i relegate this whole line of thinking to my more paranoid moments. but the attempt to stack the doj is more than passing strange, isnt it?
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
05-09-2007, 12:22 PM | #211 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: NYC
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Well, I'm no expert on civil service hiring rules. If there was a violation of nonpolitical hiring requirements, then by all means it should be investigated and remedied. That doesn't mean it isn't true that not every hiring disparity is due to discrimination. And what I think host was getting at, that the DOJ is deliberately discriminating against blacks in making hiring decisions, is disproved by roachboy's statement that Goodling was looking to seed the place with Republicans. There just aren't that many black Republican lawyers looking for career government jobs. It stinks either way but it isnt race discrimination.
RB, the purpose of my "finally" statement was to try to shake everyone and remind them that it's possible to get too deeply invested in a viewpoint and forget to step back to examine premises. People are of course limited to their own views by the fact that they are who they are, which means that there is built-in distortion from the get-go; everyone has biases in the lens through which they view the world. That's why it's important to stop every now and again and ask "what am I missing?" Remember, there are lots of good people who think differently, and they're not all stupid, evil or delusional - so it's important to ask what it is that they see that I don't, or what is it that I see that they don't? Otherwise you're just setting up an echo chamber for yourself and not forcing yourself to think beyond preconceived patterns. [That's a general "you," not a "you" addressed specifically to Roachboy]. And really, check out that website. It's a good one, and it really makes me think on all sorts of subjects. Oh, one other thing. I went back through some of this thread and I see people saying something or another is illegal or unconstitutional. I have tried to avoid that because I know enough law and constitutional law (after having gone through law school, a federal court clerkship and 20+ years of law practice) to be very keenly aware of what I do and don't know. I try to be generally familiar with the issues, but I also know there are arguments on both sides that get made by some very talented and experienced lawyers. Most of these issues are not cut and dry by any means, and we do ourselves a disservice by pretending they are. A couple of things to remember: not everything that is a bad idea is unconstitutional. Not everything we don't like is unconstitutional. There are lots of stupid, useless, even injurious things that are perfectly ok under the constitution - legislators are not prohibited by the constitution from doing bad, stupid things. The remedy for most bad or stupid things is to lobby the legislature or, failing that, vote the bums out of office. That's what happened in the 2006 elections, right? Wanting something to be illegal or unconstitutional doesn't mean that it in fact is illegal or unconstitutional. Last edited by loquitur; 05-09-2007 at 12:35 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
05-11-2007, 10:22 PM | #212 (permalink) | ||||||||||||
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I see little to no risk in demanding, at every instance, that the president fully disclose his decisions, and provide clear justification, most especially in cases of offensive military action. If the president responds in an open and cooperative manner, the worst that can happen is that we annoy him, but disclosure from and accountability of the president and all other elected officials is our duty to demand, and our right to know. The electorate just took away majority control from congressional leaders who did not understand that. The attitude of the military mandated by the executive branch and it's partisan politicking, were catalysts for the attitude of the Lieutenant who was interviewed in this article, and of his former commanding general. What the fuck were the officers who commanded these soldiers thinking? Where did they come by such prejudice against the US press, and why does the Lieutenant think that it is his business how the press reports on the president of the US? It seems, at least in this account that the military involved in these war crimes was hostile, brutal, and dismissive of the Iraqi people whose protection and civil progress are at the heart of these troop's mission.... Is there more of a danger in suspecting that the military is ineffective in that it triggers the hostility and violence that it has been unable to reign in, and that, in an effort to please the president that has used it's service and dedication to duty as a political PR prop, over and over since the May, 2003 "Mission Accomplished" "presentation on the deck of the US carrier Abraham Lincoln, the military has become almost as politicized and partisan as it's CIC, himself is.....OR IN NOT SUSPECTING IT? Why does the Lieutenant and other officers presume that the press "asking questions", is an attack on the military or that the press would not ask pertinent and relevant questions that address concerns voiced to it by the Iraqi people? Is there only room to either kiss Mr. Bush's ass, and assume that Bush, his appointees, elected republicans in congress, and the US soldiers that Bush and his generals command, are not to be questioned or held accountable, or to over react by predictably consistently holding all of them to account, right down the chain of command and responsibility? If that happened, and all of them assumed at all times that it would happen, would the 19 Iraqi civilians killed in Haditha probably be still alive now, the indicted soldiers not in custody and on trial, and would the US have even invaded and occupied Iraq? Give me over reaction and accountability, and the assumption that the press reporting from Iraq does not risk it's life to get and cover "the story", with the intent of embarassing the president, and that US officers are smart enough to drum into the rank and file soldiers that the last thing they should be doing is creating new vendettas against themselves from Iraqi civilians. Quote:
Proper decisions and actions performed in good faith build confidence and reputations. Since Gore v. Bush in 2000, and in that election and vote recount, continuing until these Haditha war crimes trials, there had been only the consistent effort to avoid disclosure to the press and to the people, to an obsessive degree that includes avoiding holding fellow republicans or troops accountable, because it has the potential to reveal "too much" to the "other side".....the "other side" being anyone who "over reacts' by asking questions, including the press, who formerly asked question as part of their job description, but now are shut out unless the "earn" access by reporting the carefully selected and distributed talking points....and only those....that earn them the access. Otherwise, just as you consider me to be, to a degree that you haven't fully recognized, an independent working press, asking questions and indepently reporting the answers, is..... "out for blood". The "control", (an example is the Bush initiated elongation of the length of time that papers of former presidents must be kept from public access) and the "us v. them" attitude, the avoidance of accountability, and the institutionalization of oppostion voter intimidation/nullification, starting with the president's own brother and his state's secretary of state, Catherine Harris's seven figure contract for a felon voter purge list, the rewards doled out by this president to the most partisan pitbulls (examples: John Bolton & Josh Bolton....) who descended on Florida after the 2000 vote to disrupt the recount, the revelation that the president's brother, in FLA again in 2004, attempted to keep his new felon voter purge list away from the eyes of the press, and the list's nullification after a judge ordered Florida's government to share the list and it's lack of Hispanic names, the politcization of and PR exploitation of the military by the president, continuing to revelations of the dismantling of civil rights enforecment at the DOJ, and it's redirection into a prosecutorial division of the republican party, impress me that this is truly an executive branch that casts a pall over the country that is indeed, worse than Watergate, complete with: ....and, isn't it worse now than Nixon using the IRS to harass his critics and perceived politcal enemies? Quote:
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I wonder if this republican congressman, until recently chairman of the house judiciary committee, also had in his pocket, an "UNWRITTEN EXCEPTION" to the rule that a congressman does not publicly demand an ASAP indictment and prosecution of someone under criminal investigation by the DOJ, a demand for an indictment of someone who is a member of congress from the rival political party.....from the fucking Attorney General, while he is being questioned under oath about other partisan motivated actions and aggressions emanating from the DOJ that he allegedly is the head of? Quote:
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Somebody has to "follow it", though.....loquitur, because.....it should interest you, but it doesn't, and I'm curious about your curiously uninterested reaction, too..... Last edited by host; 05-11-2007 at 10:36 PM.. |
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05-12-2007, 08:57 AM | #213 (permalink) | |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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meanwhile, in iraq:
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um...first of all, i find myself fascinated by how one smuggles oil. this probably follows from basically goofy images that come to mind via the verb "to smuggle"--guys in trenchcoats mostly, the prototype being harry lime from "the third man". second--this information makes it pretty obvious that there is no need for iranian involvement in iraq to explain anything about what we quaintly call "the insurgency"--you know, the various military/para-military organizations that are using the american occupation as a focal point. so what the fuck was cheney doing on the aircraft carrier the other day threatening iran? bluster, methinks. mostly i post this as a followup to the guardian article yesterday, another element in the mosaic of chaos that for some reason is not part of the consideration about strategy vis-a-vis iraq, that is not part of the conversation vis-a-vis what it is that this administration should be held to account for, that is not an aspect of collective thinking when the question of this administration's incompetence arises....an index of what it is that we implicitly assent to when the range of alternatives in public debate about either the bush administration or the debacle in iraq is delimited by the stalemate composition of congress. this is what we assent to.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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05-12-2007, 12:11 PM | #214 (permalink) | ||
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roachboy, here's the governor of my state, a kool-ade drinker, to be sure.....
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05-13-2007, 08:02 AM | #215 (permalink) | |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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the path becomes clear when the next step is taken:
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 05-13-2007 at 08:07 AM.. |
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05-13-2007, 09:51 AM | #216 (permalink) | ||||||||
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Now It's My Turn: A Daughter's Chronicle of Political Life</b>, are selling for 7 cents each, plus $3.99 shipping charge: http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...8917862&sr=8-1 Sample of Jordanian commentator's reaction to Cheney's "visit": Quote:
Everyone...apparently, except for all of the leading 2008 republican "hopefuls" ....and here is the republican "solution" to the Bush/Cheney failed co-presidency: Opinions from republican 2008 presidential frontrunners, per http://www.pollingreport.com/wh08rep.htm Quote:
<img src="http://www.libraries.psu.edu/maps/photo/2-Auschwitz.jpg" height=300 width =440> Quote:
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Here is what Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid actually said: Quote:
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<b>How can any of them be considered intelligent or able enough to be the POTUS when they embrace all of the failed and illegal Bush policies, and the rhetoric, in the face of the sub 30 percent Bush Cheney support, according to polls, and everything that we know, and have shared in linked references, throughout this forum?</b> Last edited by host; 05-13-2007 at 10:06 AM.. |
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05-13-2007, 10:17 AM | #217 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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So Mr. Cheney is making threats again. And we all know what happened the last time Mr. Cheney started making threats. I find it amazing that given the political climate in Washington DC, the poll numbers, the international scorn for America - that Mr. Cheney has the chutzpah to threaten anyone these days, let alone Iran. I used to think no way in hell we go into Iran, but Mr. Cheney is starting to make me nervous...
-- Cheney, on Carrier, Sends Warning to Iran By DAVID E. SANGER Published: May 12, 2007 Vice President Dick Cheney used the deck of an American aircraft carrier just 150 miles off Iran’s coast as the backdrop yesterday to warn that the United States was prepared to use its naval power to keep Tehran from disrupting oil routes or “gaining nuclear weapons and dominating this region.” Mr. Cheney said little new in his speech, delivered from the cavernous hangar bay of the John C. Stennis, one of the two carriers in the Persian Gulf. Each line had, in some form, been said before at various points in the four-year nuclear standoff with Iran, and during the increasingly tense arguments over whether Tehran is aiding insurgents in Iraq. But Mr. Cheney stitched all of those warnings together, and the symbolism of sending the administration’s most famous hawk to deliver them so close to Iran’s coast was unmistakable. It also came just a week after Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice had talked briefly and inconclusively with Iran’s foreign minister, a step toward re-engagement with Iran that some in the administration have opposed. Mr. Cheney’s sharp warnings appeared to be part of a two-track administration campaign to push back at Iran while leaving the door open to negotiations. It was almost exactly a year ago that the United States offered to negotiate with Iran as long as it first agreed to stop enriching uranium, a decision in which Mr. Cheney, participants said, was not a major player. Senior officials said Mr. Cheney’s speech was not circulated broadly in the government before it was delivered. A senior American diplomat added, “He still kind of runs by his own rules.” The speech was reminiscent of Mr. Cheney’s speeches about Iraq in August 2002, which argued against sending weapons inspectors back into Iraq and laid bare the split within the administration over how to deal with Saddam Hussein. But the circumstances with Iran are quite different. American officials say that so many troops are tied up in Iraq, and Iran has so much power to cause disruption there and in the oil markets, that an attack on Iran’s nuclear facilities would be an enormous risk. “This is about saber-rattling, and power projection,” one senior State Department official said yesterday. “And who better to do it?” When President Bush ordered the two carriers into the Persian Gulf last year, senior officials said it was part of an effort to gain some negotiating leverage. About the same time, American military personnel began capturing some Iranians in Iraq, and some are still being held there. American officials have also been pressing European banks and companies to avoid doing business with Iran, hoping to disrupt its efforts to recycle its oil profits. Oil seemed to be on Mr. Cheney’s mind yesterday when he told 3,500 to 4,000 members of the Stennis’s crew that Iran would not be permitted to choke off oil shipments. “With two carrier strike groups in the gulf, we’re sending clear messages to friends and adversaries alike,” he said, according to an official transcript of his remarks. “We’ll keep the sea lanes open. We’ll stand with our friends in opposing extremism and strategic threats. We’ll disrupt attacks on our own forces. We’ll continue bringing relief to those who suffer, and delivering justice to the enemies of freedom. And we’ll stand with others to prevent Iran from gaining nuclear weapons and dominating this region.” Some Iran experts have questioned whether the threats delivered by administration officials help or hurt diplomacy with Iran. “The problem with the two-track policy is that the first track — coercion, sanctions, naval deployments — can undercut the results on the second track,” said Ray Takeyh, an Iran scholar at the Council of Foreign Relations. “There are some in Tehran who will look at Cheney on that carrier and say that everything Rice is offering is not real,” he said. He added, “This is a case where we are trying to get through negotiations what, so far, we couldn’t get through coercion.” Without question, symbols of coercion were part of the backdrop: Mr. Cheney spoke in front of five F/A-18 warplanes. While he never said so, it is clear to the Iranians that several of their major nuclear sites, including the uranium enrichment facility at Natanz, are within reach of the Navy’s weapons. But mindful of the lasting imagery of President Bush on another carrier, there were no signs proclaiming success, much less “Mission Accomplished.” Instead, Mr. Cheney repeated his arguments about the danger of early withdrawal from Iraq, suggesting that it would empower Iran. “This world can be messy and dangerous, but it’s a world made better by American power and American values,” he told the cheering crew. He then reached back to some language Mr. Bush had previously used to describe the goals of Al Qaeda — the word caliphate, which the president has avoided in recent times. “Osama bin Laden and his lieutenants believe they can wear us down, break our will, force us out and make Iraq a safe haven for terror,” Mr. Cheney said. “They see Iraq as the center of a new caliphate, from which they can stir extremism and violence throughout the region, and eventually carry out devastating attacks against the United States and others.” |
05-13-2007, 10:49 AM | #219 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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Well who can blame Iran for making nukes? They are frightened, disoriented, humiliated, isolated, and backed into a corner with Mr. Cheney growling at them again. I'd imagine you'd wet yourself real nice if Mr. Cheney growled at you too.
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05-13-2007, 10:53 AM | #220 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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so let's summarize for a moment shall we?
the bushplan, the "surge" is already giving way to calls for still more troops. the situation on the ground in iraq appears to be growing increasingly chaotic. there is no plan: the is no plan from the administration except to use the war to legitimate itself, to continue compounding error on error, with the result of what already to be a patterns of escalation resulting in escalation and a descent into a self-perpetuating spiral that may move from debacle to catastrophe. meanwhile, the manly men of the bush team still talk in terms of "honor" and "resolve" while around them everything fragments. meanwhile, the present composition of congress seems to exclude from debate any signifcant break with the self-undermining logic that we see playing out already with the result that some "middle ground" has to be sought, one that necessarily must take the (failed) positions of the bush people seriously. congress cannot override a veto and there is apparently no hope of impeaching any of these fuckers. public support in the states has collapsed: the international community watches aghast as the fiasco unfolds. there is no public opposition: no action. nothing in the streets, no pressure. and there is no plan. it may be that the administration is pursuing something on the order of the biden plan beneath the surface--rice mets with the syrians, with the iranians--cheney with the saudis. but it is hard to tell because of the lopsided coverage provided for moments of dick-waving on the order of cheney's little carrier chat this past week. meanwhile, here, people have retreated into their routines and busily act as though at some level everything is ok. so at this point, maybe i'll refer back to loquitor's post earlier concerning stepping back to pose the question "what am i missing?" ok so what am i missing here? what are we not taking into account in this assessment of the situation? anything? i hope there is something that has been overlooked---i really do. i just dont see it.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 05-13-2007 at 11:02 AM.. |
05-13-2007, 11:22 AM | #221 (permalink) | |
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05-13-2007, 01:49 PM | #223 (permalink) | ||
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Iran is the most powerful Arab country in the world, and while they are obviously concerned that the crazies in the white house have turned their guns from Baghdad to Tehran, they also know that they aren't hated like Saddam and they aren't going to be a pushover like Saddam. They see that the world was willing to jump to their feet and millions protested to protect Iraq because the invasion was bullshit, and they know that, despite things like: Quote:
And if Cheney ever growled at me, I'd put on my bullet-proof vest and growl right the fuck back. That son of a bitch would have to earn my fear. |
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05-13-2007, 03:36 PM | #224 (permalink) |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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Iran is also a vibrant, thriving democracy. One of the only democracies in the Arab world, with a youth culture that rivals America's. So there's no "freeing Iran from the evil dictator" justification. I think they know that "they're building nukes" claims will be subject to vastly more scrutiny this time around.
Honest to god, what just happened is, Cheney stood on that ship and pulled out his wang and proclaimed it the biggest in the land. This man's hands need to be taken off the reigns of our foreign policy. |
05-13-2007, 03:47 PM | #225 (permalink) | ||
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BTW, I've just coined PD. Feel free to use it. |
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05-13-2007, 04:47 PM | #226 (permalink) | |
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Location: Detroit, MI
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Now while I happen to think that the mullahs are busy cooking up nukes, I disagree with Mr. Cheney ratcheting up the tension level. I think its reckless and obtuse. I see no useful purpose in provoking frightened, paranoid, unstable people. This is one of the problems with having no diplomatic relations, where such things - if they need to be said at all - can be said in private and without the negative public relations ramifications. Mr. Cheney and Mr. Bush have yet to learn that public humiliation is counterproductive. This seems to me the single biggest failing of the Bush administration. The thing is, there are people in the States who are acutely aware of the importance of tactful public relations. |
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05-13-2007, 04:53 PM | #227 (permalink) | |
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05-14-2007, 03:00 PM | #228 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: NYC
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willravel, you need to see a real theocracy in action if you think we're anywhere close to one here. A place where women can't be seen in public without elaborate cover, where your hand gets cut off for theft, where if you happen to have a religion different from the accepted one you have to hide your worship, where you can't criticize the rulers or, worse, criticize the majority religion. We are very very far from that.
In fact, western countries that have established religions are far LESS religious societies than is the US, which does not have (and is prohibited from having) an established religion. Maybe we can make the country less religious by establishing a religion? <joke> |
05-14-2007, 03:26 PM | #229 (permalink) | |
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I'm still left wondering which is worse, removing the hand of a thief or spending millions on the asshole and sending him to a place that will harden him as a criminal and that will make him MORE likely to break the law again. Do you think one handed Frank is going to steal again? BTW, many in Iran are pushing for removing things like that from law. Obviously, things like stoning to death for adultery, hand removal for robbery, 80 lashes for slander or intoxication are a bit stern and no longer have a place in Iran. The nice thing about religious texts that are hundreds of years old is you can feel free to interpret it in whatever way suits you, so saying that removing of hands can mean lashing the hands until the stolen goods are removed from the hands would be kosher. I also get the impression that if the president/oval office monkey didn't have his finger on the button, the ME would feel a little more safe trying to move forward on their own. |
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05-14-2007, 04:22 PM | #230 (permalink) | ||||||
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Maybe I'm just overly sensitive, but it seems to me that the president Bush by his public embrace and private business relationship with Saudi leaders, and his appointment as head of executive branch HR chief, the former dean of christian right wing fundamentalist Pat Robertson's Regent University government school, Kay Cole James, who proceeded to hire 150 Regent alumni, educated in Robertson's own religious/political image and agenda, as well as the republican's outsized control by the CNP, is all too much to quietly accept:
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05-15-2007, 05:41 AM | #231 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: NYC
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>>>>>>>>>>> [from willravel] I'm still left wondering which is worse, removing the hand of a thief or spending millions on the asshole and sending him to a place that will harden him as a criminal and that will make him MORE likely to break the law again. Do you think one handed Frank is going to steal again?
Interesting issue. Back in law school I had some long late-night debates with people over whether our criminal punishment system was seriously broken. I was troubled by the fact that there are poor people and middle class people working hard and playing by the rules, but struggling to get by, while criminals who are convicted get room, board, medical care and recreation courtesy of the state, plus enormous devotion of resources. My proposal was to remove a whole category of crimes from being eligible for imprisonment, primarily nonviolent ones, and either converting them to torts or imposing financial or other penalties like work. One of the people I used to argue with thought that even some violent criminals shouldn't be imprisoned, but instead should be subjected to corporal punishment (e.g., electric shocks or lashes), with a doctor present to ensure lack of permanent physical harm. What do you think of that? Host, as for Saudi Arabia, given my druthers I'd have a crash program to come up with alternative energy sources and tell the Saudis to go drink their oil. Our need for petroleum-based energy has seriously distorted our politics and foreign policy. The only reason anyone in this world gives a shit about the two-bit dictatorships, theocracies and kleptocracies in that part of the world is that many of them are sitting on what we use for energy, so if they tell us we need to care, we don't have much choice. As a national security strategy I'd slap a $2/gallon tax on gasoline, immediately. Of course, it will never ever ever happen. But that would be the single best thing we could do to straighten out our foreign policy. It would bring many alternative energy sources suddenly within the realm of economic feasibility. |
05-15-2007, 06:08 AM | #232 (permalink) |
has all her shots.
Location: Florida
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at times like these...I always to pull out this.....
link http://www.tehranmoca.com/en/index.aspx Check out the permanent collection. Iran is a vibrant and productive society...one that is currently experiencing the religious crackdown on a decade of progressive politics. The people of Iran have been robbed of a representative government therefore what we see, if you're only looking at "the news," is not representative of the people of Iran, either. The real irony is that, with all of this posturing and condescension, we could be fucking up the one real chance we have for pulling a success out of our ass in Iraq. I believe that Iran is the key.
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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce |
05-15-2007, 06:14 AM | #233 (permalink) | |||
Location: Washington DC
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Documents turned over in the summer of 2003 by the Commerce Department as a result of the Sierra Club’s and Judicial Watch’s Freedom of Information Act lawsuit, concerning the activities of the Cheney Energy Task Force, contain a map of Iraqi oilfields, pipelines, refineries and terminals, as well as two charts detailing Iraqi oil and gas projects, and “Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield Contracts.” The documents, dated March 2001, also feature maps of Saudi Arabian and United Arab Emirates oilfields, pipelines, refineries and tanker terminals. There are supporting charts with details of the major oil and gas development projects in each country that provide information on the project’s costs, capacity, oil company and status or completion date.I agree with you on an energy tax, particularly with the record profits of the oil companies. Kucinich sponsored a windfall profit tax bill in 2005, The Gas Price Spike Act, (link) that, IMO, would have been better if the profits were directed to alternative energy, rather than mass transit...but in any case, it never received a committee hearing under the Repubs. **** Quote:
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I couldnt agree more with this conclusion....great diplomacy at work, huh?: That demonstrates some savvy foreign policy insight, doesn't it? Turn down an unprecedented offer from Iran when they're weak and we're strong, and then three years later reluctantly agree to much narrower talks when they're stronger and we're weaker. Great job, guys.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 05-15-2007 at 06:52 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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05-15-2007, 06:50 AM | #234 (permalink) | ||||||||||
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Are you comfortable with every republican presidential candidate, including Giuliani, groveling at the "altar" of either a secret CNP meeting or at Pat Robertson's Regent U., or....at both? Did you know that the contents of Bush's 1999 address to a CNP meeting, which presumably won him the "endorsement" of the "group", or at least did not convince them to work against his candidacy in the 2000 race, has still never been revealed, to this day? Did you know that Fatherland Security deputized CNP member, Erik Prince's 20,000 man, private "army", Blackwater, to protect the property of NOLA during the aftermath of Katrina, instead of hiring them to provide aid or rescue for the stranded populace? Quote:
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05-15-2007, 07:56 AM | #235 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: NYC
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Couple of thoughts on the last few posts:
1. Iran. So far as I can tell there is a race on: will the good people of Iran, who are sick of the abusive regime and eager to live as normal people, succeed in toppling the mullahs before the mullahs make themselves much more powerful by getting a nuclear weapon and redirecting the country's energies to external "enemies" (which is the oldest dictatorship trick in the book)? There appear to be some fissures already, particularly in the areas of Iran that are inhabited by ethnic minorities like Azeris and Kurds. I hope the process of holding the mullahs accountable accelerates. Iran is a historically rich culture that is being brought to ruin by a small collection of fanatics. This could be, in the right circumstances, the ideal country to be the next secular (or at least quasi-secular) muslim-majority democracy. And I believe a majority of Iranians want it to be so. [Host, Iran is the classic example of an established religion giving the religion a bad name. Lots of Iranians are REALLY pissed at the theocrats.] 2. Host, if I'm a moderate (which, by your framing, I sort of am, though it's not how I'd characterize myself, which is more along the lines of freethinking nondoctrinaire libertarian), perhaps that helps you place some of what's written here along the spectrum. I believe one theme of much of what I have posted has been that people should calm down. I still think much of what gets written here is horribly overwrought. As I have said before, this is a fundamentally strong and decent country, and when we have had excesses they have tended to correct themselves over time. I'll certainly concede that what one considers an "excess" is open to debate. But the basic pattern in the US is that it seems to do a pretty good job at self-correction. Give Madison and Hamilton their due. |
05-15-2007, 08:42 AM | #236 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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(CBS/AP) Iran's foreign minister walked out of a dinner of diplomats where he was seated directly across from Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, on the pretext that the female violinist entertaining the gathering was dressed too revealingly. "I don't know which woman he was afraid of, the woman in the red dress or the secretary of state," State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said Friday, regarding the actions of Iran's Manouchehr Mottaki. Rice herself was questioned by reporters about the lack of a direct conversation with Mottaki, even though it appeared she was "chasing" him. "Uh, well, you could ask him why he didn't make an effort," she replied. Then she laughed. "Look, I'm not given to chasing anyone." So the face to face between Rice and Mottaki never happened, reports CBS News correspondent Charlie D'Agata. Instead, U.S. and Iranian delegations met at a lower, "expert" level, which while significant, is not a first. "Our officials did, as they did in Baghdad, have an opportunity to exchange views about the substance of this meeting," Rice said. So much of this Iraq summit has been about the U.S. and Iran, but with good reason, reports D'Agata. America blames Iran for violence in Iraq, Iran blames America, and the Iraqis have been urging both countries to put their differences aside and put Iraq first. The dinner episode Thursday night amid a major regional conference on Iraq perfectly revealed how hard it was to bring together the top diplomats of the two rival nations. |
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05-15-2007, 09:08 AM | #237 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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Powerclown...whats your point? That Mottaki snubbed Rice? And that has what to do with the missed opportunity in 2003?
Perhaps Mottaki read the Wash Post artilce before the conference where both US and Iran minimized his importance: Quote:
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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05-15-2007, 09:42 AM | #239 (permalink) | |
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Maybe now there will be slightly less reluctance in the US, to viewing Iranians as the caucasian, <h3>NON-ARABS</h3>, who they, in reality, are.....
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05-15-2007, 09:49 AM | #240 (permalink) | |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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loquitor:
first, i think you have a pretty curious notion of iran. i dont know where it comes from. maybe you talk with expats who left because they supported the shah's delightful regime politically? sounds like it. i hope this doesnt sound sarcastic because i dont mean it to be: i am genuinely confused about where you get your impression of iran from. second, on this: Quote:
hamilton and madison were just people who did the best they could in a particular situation. they were neither more nor less than anyone else. they were no prophets, they were not ubermenschen. they outlined a system that has in the main worked ok (depending on your viewpoint) but about which nothing is guaranteed--nothing has been, nothing will be. i dont get the attribution of some heroic status to them. i really dont.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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articles, cheney, dick, impeachment |
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