Newt Gingrich: "Abolish Bilingual Education"
 

I hate politicians.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/....ap/index.html

This is absolutely disgusting. The pedestal we lift ourselves onto has us looking down upon all others. We see the tops of their heads, not the pride in their eyes. We think there should be only ONE way. We dismiss any other way as unworthy, ghetto, and unsavory.

Shame on all who think this way. Shame on all who support those who spread this filth.

The point, that we should be spending money on teaching English so that assimilation into American society and culture is made easier, is something that should happen.

However, putting it this way is embarrassing.

The problem is, there is a large section of society that sees teaching Spanish as an equal and substitute to English as another way of embracing illegal immigration. Whether that is a correct or incorrect view, as we know from arguing on here, an opinion like that is very hard to get past, and also can be easy to exploit for political gain.

I don't buy any of it. It's another language. There is nothing fucking wrong with another language. Go to Europe and meet some people... they all have to know 6 different languages and nobody is looking down on anyone because of it. Languages are gateways to other cultures and new knowledge. I can't fucking believe this tunnel vision.

Okay, implications of the word 'ghetto' aside, I don't think this is all filth. Bilingual education would probably be a lot more successful if it had some kind of up-or-out component, where there was an incentive to learn English within a specified amount of time. I just think there are appropriate situations for bilingual material... in my view, the ballot is not one of them, but the hospital is. Newt doesn't win any popularty points with me from his delivery, but I don't think his views make him a monster either.

Incidentally, you can keep your shame - it's a far more filthy thing to spread.

I think what the former house speaker is railling against is a thinly veiled assault against spanish speakers.

In my opinion, a nice dose of shame should bring those who think they are higher than the rest back to the same level. I believe in structure, heirarchy, and capitalism, but I believe that it is complete bullshit to determine personal dignity based on the position in the system.

I came to this country as a young boy (3-4 years old) and I learned English very quickly (around a year or so). That's to be expected. In older children, however, I know it's much harder to learn English. I know of three personally who came when they weer 14-16 and had a very hard time learning (and are still trying to, even 3 years after) to speak English. I believe this is because of a faulty ESOL curriculum (ESOL is composed of the classes which are supposed to teach English to immigrants). In ESOL, the Spanish language is emphasized more than English (according to the people I know who went through it) and so learning the language is much more difficult than it should be. A total revamp of the ESOL curriculum would solve this problem.

That being said, if Gingrich meant that foreign language classes should be abolished because they aren't English, then he is truly a stupid man, and is no better than those stupid rednecks who also spout their shit ("This is America, and everyone needs to know English. If you don't, leave, you're making things harder.", etc,etc...). However, if he meant that the current bilingual education system should be changed to facilitate the immersion into English society, then he's got a valid point.

In any case, he didn't do a good job of making clear what he meant, which puts him in the same pile as Bush...That's a no-no for a presidential candidate.

The article doesn't mention to whom Gingrich was speaking, but I am willing to bet that he was pandering to the anti-immigrant crowd. There is nothing new about this thinking from times past other than the people currently being targeted as "less than American."

My husband and I are both third generation Americans whose grandparents immigrated from Europe. They, too, were treated as "less than" because they were not able to speak English well. They responded to their "shame" by never speaking nor teaching their language to their children, and the language and culture have been lost to the grandchildren.

I agree with Hal that this continued racism toward immigrants is shameful, and not worthy of what this country was meant to be.

Hmmm my father was never ashamed to speak. In fact he inisisted that we children speak English only. It is my experience that among the kids in generation in my family born and raised in the US, those that speak good english with little to no accent have higher salaries than those who speak with accents. Heck I don't even have a college diploma, so I should be even regarded as having a lesser salary.

As far as bilingual ballots, IMO part of naturalization for citizenship is reading and writing enough english to understand ballots. Because of that requirement, I think that ballots should not be written in any other language than english.

Now if you are talking about DMV and the DMV handbook well that's totally different. I'm annoyed that when I went to CA DMV they handed me a tagalog handbook automatically because the person thought I wanted that one.

Sorry, I really don't think saying we should only teach one primary language in schools or one language for government documents is radical.

He's not saying you can't learn another language, or use another language.

I'm actually doing a paper on language spoken by immigrants and the hinderance it causes to integration.

In the Netherlands they are pretty well as tolerant of things as you can get. However, they are looking at enacting a "must speak Dutch" policy for immigration. The reason is simply that immigrants from Morocco and Turkey come to the country, and have their own schools (subsidized by the government). The first, second, and often third generation people there don't speak dutch.

This leads to a horde of problems that compound each other. Not speaking the language keeps young Arabs at an almost 50% unemployment rate. This causes the young, and now angry, Arabs to turn elsewhere which is why the crime rate among Arabs is exponentially higher. This in turn leads to racism, taxi drivers are now refusing to pick up Arabs because of a long string of robberies.

Any of this sounding familiar?

In turn because they do not speak the national language, these communities can only turn inward. Unfortunately these cause micro-nations within cities, and the killing of Theo Van Gogh shows exactly what becomes of it.

Should every citizen speak English in America? Yes
Should every citizen be able to speak at least a second language? Absolutely

Language is the means of conveyance for everything. If we can not communicate we can not discuss, we can not debate, we can not do commerce, we effectively become foreigners within our own country.

first off, gingrich is just a washed up old reactionary and anything he says has to be considered in light of that.
second, the meme that he generated has the primary effect of generating the illusion of continued relevance for gingrich himself. it is only secondarily something to be taken as a serious commentary on anything.
third, like most neofascists, gingrich's politics are geared around a kind of obsession with national identity, a category that operates more efficient when posited alongside a real or imagined threat to it. so what i think you mostly have here is an empty statement aimed at sounding out the continued viability of right-wing republican ways of framing their pet issues, most of which also--surprise--turn on an obsession with national identity which is a category that operates most efficiently when posited alongside a real or imagined threat.

the rhetoric is vaguely interesting--this business of the "language of the ghetto"--mostly because it positions gingrich as articulating a particular type of class paranoia, a petit bourgeois class paranoia that construes the poor as some internal "other"....this is of course nothing new, being a stock characteristic of neofascism. gingrich in this case sounds like poujade. it is indicative of the strange ideological world of the rapidly imploding contemporary right, however, which dreams of homogenous self-enclosed and self-enclosing spaces the boundaries of which are outlined across stupid "us vs. them" statements.
typically, gingrich simply references class anxiety, looking to reinforce it and thereby to use it for his own political gain. another classical rightwing tactic. he offers and can offer nothing coherent in the way of account for the sources or meanings of this anxiety--and in fairness even if he did, it would not fit into a neat little cnn soundbyte package and probably would have been left out for "editorial" reasons.

however gringrich being gingrich, i do not think there is anything even remotely like a coherent sociological analysis behind such remarks. were you inclined to be politically sympathetic, you could impute one, as seaver does above.

speaking of the paper you are doing, seaver: i do not think the premise of is without problems because i do not see any way to reduce the complexity of questions of either immigrant or migrant labor communities and their integration or nonintegration into the social formations of which they are parts (regardless of status) to one of language. but this is a response to the barest of outlines: i'd be interested to hear more about it at some point, seaver.

There is certainly a danger of having all government documents in one language if you have a large population that has a less-than-adequate understanding of English. Multi-language services, documents, and websites are created for this reason. It makes sense to give language-based access on all levels. In Toronto, for example, you'll see many examples of this.

The reason why I say it's dangerous is because having English as the only available language would mean it is the language of the privileged. The benefit of having government documents in several languages is that is ensures that newcomers or otherwise non-English speakers can participate in society at a reasonable level. If you take this away, you run into the problem of marginalizing entire subcultures within the nation. This barrier to access would be profound, especially if you don't set up the means for people to learn the single official language. Not everyone can afford ESL classes or tutors, nor can everyone easily pick up a second language.

This goes beyond insulting. I daresay it would infringe on human rights in certain circumstances.

Oh, and this "language of the ghetto" thing is quite ridiculous. What, they don't speak English in ghettos?

$5 says that Newt can't say 'racist' in Spanish. Washed up has-been. Move along, people, nothing to see here.

Edit: Racista

Gingrich may be fighting a losing battle. My friend from Mexico jokingly says "you gringos would do well to teach your children and grandchildren how to speak Spanish in order to get by in the new world".:)

It would seem to be a good idea to require Spanish language classes in our schools since there are already sections of the country where it is the primary language spoken. I don't know how far we can go with the other languages since there are so many of them.

I agree. In my paper I cite dozens of causes and reactionary causes which reinforce isolation within a greater community. However, my thesis states that the language barrier is the larger barrier and spawns the most problems. I fully agree that the issue is extremely complex, but if simple speech can not be held, the flow of ideas and information is impossible.

It already is. In order to do anything more than the most basic of manual labor jobs English is a requirement.

Please don't get me wrong, I do not support Newt. I do, however, feel that language barriers create isolation. I do not buy the theory that multiculturalism alone makes things better, I believe that a free flow of ideas and information are required for a multicultural society to prosper. This includes uniting forces such as a common language.

I would like anyone to point out a country in which there were people who spoke a language other than those ruling the government who were not marginalized. The only time this occurs is when they manage to speak both their own language, as well as the one of the ruling government.

Does anyone else have a hard time understanding that if YOU CHOOSE to move to another country. That the burden is on YOU, to learn the language and culture of the country that YOU moved to?

I wonder if anyone's pointed out to Gingrich that he sounds like a Soviet politician of the 1920's? They basically forced everyone to learn Russian as their primary language of business and politics (not that it was a new concept - the Imperials basically did the same thing). To this day, you can still go to Kazakhstan, Georgia or Armenia, speak only Russian and never have a problem being understood by most people.

This is history repeating itself, as people much closer to the issue than I am have already pointed out. There's nothing to see here. Move along.

And yes, Gingrich is a much better author than politician. He's virtually unelectable as President once his opponents start talking about his marriages and how they ended. He's a scumbag, at least in his personal life.

I have a very hard time understanding it. I don't know of any other countries of the top of my head that are bending over backwards like this.

It isn't that simple at all. I assume you're referring to Spanish people. I may be biased here, but I'm living the life and I see these people try to live throughout the day. It isn't as simple as "just learn the language." These people "choose" to come here to make money for their family, since they can't do so back in their own country. Essentially, they have no other choice but to let their family starve, and facing such circumstances, any decent person would do exactly the same, regardless of nationality. When I came to this country with my family, my father worked *two* full-time jobs, and he also *tried* to go to adult education classes at night. Needless to say, it's more than any man can handle, so he abandoned school. 15 years later he says he regrets it, but really had no other choice. It isn't so simple as "just learn the language," since most of the people who immigrate here from Spanish nations already have established families, and they come here to support them first and foremost. Never lose sight that these are people we're talking about, with loved ones who depend on them, not just viruses that come here to exploit your (our) wealth of economy (that's the way some people see us).

If our original countries actually gave their citizens the support and opportunity we need, the you can bet we wouldn't be coming here, creating needless burden and difficulty. We're a people in crisis, as all our nations are under revolutionary, dictatorial, communist, or socialist governments, and I think I speak for us when I say I'm sorry, but we really have no other choice.

He very well may have. But, I didn't read it that way. Were I to chose to emigrate to El Salvadore, Germany, Japan, France, India...what have you...then it would be up to me to learn the language of that country.
Perhaps not.
My "family" emigrated to the U.S. in the early 18th century. They spoke German. They settled with other German speakers. It was well into the third generation before any of the family papers began to be written in English. So, by self imposed isolation, there was little incentive to learn English. But, there was also no effort made by the government to accomodate the German language. Sooner or later, they had to assimilate.
Some people do. That's the way of immigration. Not excusing it, nor condoning it, but that's the way that it is. The German immigrants went through it, the Itallian immigrants went through it, the Irish immigrants certainly went through it, as did every other ethnic group that you can think of. It's human nature. That said...personally, I find that most of the Hispanic immigrants, that I've met, are the hardest working sons-of-bitches that ever seen in my life. They're working on the dream that most of us forgot about.
Don't apologize. 99.9% of us here are descended from people that were kicked out of every decent country in the world. Damn few of us are "native". Work hard and contribute, and I welcome you with open arms. In fact, I see many a parasitic "American" that I'd like to open up an exchange program with.

I thank you wholly for those wise words. :) It's rare to hear such rationality on the interwebs, but the TFP continues to surprise me. :)

That's the difference between an immigrant who can speak English and one who cannot. If you can't speak English you are a Mexican living in a Mexican community in America. If you can speak English you are no longer bound to your cultural community to function in America. By learning English you gain so much more freedom and opportunity in this country than only knowing your native language.

All of my great grandparents could barely speak English, grandparents are bilingual, and my parents can only speak English. Every other immigrant class eventually learned English, why should Hispanic people be different?

Samcol, this is in my Top 5 Most Ignorant Post Ever. I can't even be nice about it; this is absolute garbage.

Other than the lanugage skill, what other difference is there? By my count, millions.

Unless they're Indian. Or Chinese. Or Guatamalan. Or Honduran. Or Brazilian. Or French. Or Bulgarian. Or Russian. Or Lebanese. You get the idea.

Let me assume for the second that you're not as ignorant as you sound here and point out that every single immigrant group that's ever moved to North America sets up it's own neighborhood. Ever heard of the Ukrainian Village in Chicago? Not that many Ukrainians there any more since the Peurto Ricans moved in a few years ago, but it used to be a place where there was more signs in Cyrillic than English. My own neighborhood in Chicago was predominantly Swedish until about 20 years, but it's now more heterogenous. I'm not even going to mention, Greektown, Little Italy, Chinatown, Little Saigon or other neighborhoods that have counterparts in lots of other cities around the country.

True, but it takes time to learn a new language. Personally, I've always had trouble learning new languages, as seen by the solid C's I posted in high school and college in several languages. It wasn't for lack of trying - I'm just not very good at it. Expecting people to show up being fluent in English is completely unreasonable and goes against the basic reason that all of our ancestors moved here.

And how long have most of them been here? By your own admission, your ancestors had difficulty with the language.

So is this double standard applied only to Mexicans or do you hold it against everyone that looks different than you?

I'm not saying that they should be different. Quite the contrary, actualy. The asimilation into an English speaking America has historically taken a few generations. It will happen, I have no doubt. But, it will not happen overnight...despite redneck epithets that "those mexicuns lurn to talk good 'mericun".

While I don't feel that special consideration should be made, especially where it relates to taxpayer expense, to accomodate non-english speaking immigrants...neither should unrealistic expectations be made of them, to learn.
Now, granted, it was easier for my anscestors, some 300 years ago. They really didn't need to assimilate. They remained, quite comfortably, in their own little community. Todays immigrant has quite a bit to overcome.

Is this an April Fools joke, or were you serious when you posted this? If you were serious, then you should delete your post. "Top 5 Most Ignorant Post[s] Ever" is absolutely inappropriate.

First, we're talking about Hispanics, so I don't think your first comment there is called for.

As for the second part, what I would suggest is to go to that Ukranian area, and see how many of the actual Ukranians still speak their old language as the primary language.

People tend to gravitate towards similar people, whether it is race, ethnicity, religion, etc. (Which I'm sure is not a revelation, but it needs to be stated). You'll probably find that the original ethnic residents of those neighborhoods started to move out as they learned the language and started to assimilate their culture and beliefs into the general "American" culture.

Education and communication breed cultural mixing.

This is a good point. We should be doing all that we can to provide education for these people.

I am serious. I've taken some time and still think that the first post was assinine. My comment stands untouched. :thumbsup: The fact that he's applying one standard to his family and a completely different one to Hispanics offends me to my core. I think that I responded inappropriately. If you really want to start this conversation, why don't you recall that you once called every Christian throughout history an "idiot". Let me know if you need a link to that post. Glass houses, will, glass houses.

Fine, the edit out the portions of my comments that pertain to non-Latins and insert: Puerto Ricans, Columbians, Venezualans and Dominicans. I know first generation immigrants from all of these nations/territories. Their English skills range from non-existant to heavily accented but fluent.

The demise of the Ukranian Village as a enclave of Ukranians is more a representation of the fact that the original "settlers" of the area have died off, and their children moved elsewhere. That's the historical trend with almost all ethnic enclaves, especially in Chicago. One group moves in, the children become more successful than the parents and move the entire family elsewhere. It is a trend that's repeated over and over in neighborhood after neighborhood across the country. The exceptions tend to be areas where there's been a constant flow of immigrants coming from the home country (i.e. Chinatown in San Francisco), but those are few and far between.

I just used Mexican as an example because it's currently the most common.

I was also commenting on what BOR said and was basically re-iterating it. Then I went on to say how my ancestors faced similar circumstances. If you learn the language you aren't confined to just your culture you join the melting pot instead of being an outsider.

Why is there a double standard for the Hispanic immigrants is all I am saying. Why the bi-lingual education, why the free healthcare, housing breaks, social security, tax evasion etc.

What is so ignorant about making that observation.

Why is it so hard to understand that we are simply seeing a greater influx of newly immigrated Hispanic citizens and it only seems, in the vacuum of present time, that they are never going to learn English? They will learn English the way most immigrants learned English, with time and interaction with people who speak English.

Isn't it obvious what is happening? Before 9/11 we didn't have this kind of hysteria. Conservatives are trying to turn us into a country of xenophobes. Everybody needs to calm the hell down.

I don't think you should have to learn geometry either. Or calculus. History is a useless subject too, along with geography.

Look, when many of our grandparents (or whoever), things were different. Citizenship generally came about because the local party machine wanted your vote, so they signed you up. There weren't strict tests or background checks or any of that. Under today's rules, many of our ancestors wouldn't have made it in. Hell, a lot of the Americans I know wouldn't make it in based on some of the requirements unless they were from somewhere like Cuba.

I don't think there's a double standard. I think there's a new standard. Part of it consists of helping people to clearly understand what's going on, and the easiest and most obvious way to do that is to do it in their native language. It's most likely Spanish because, let's face it, most immigrants (legal or otherwise) are from Spanish-speaking countries. However, my local DMV has information in Polish, Russian, Korean and Hindi as well the last time I checked. And I'm ok with that, because I'd rather have people that actually understand the driving laws behind the wheel than those that had to guess at the meaning of many of the words.

As far as bi-lingual education, don't you think that the easiest way to teach most people a new language is to start in their native one? All school districts aren't created equally, and certainly some of those immigrant children are being underserved, but the idea is solid. And there have always been private schools that serve specific minority groups.

As far as the other things in your list, I don't see any of those things being applied exclusively to Hispanic immigrants. It very well may be that Hispanics enjoy those benefits more than others, but they also outnumber any other group of that type, so the numbers should be skewed.

As far as tax evasion, that's a crime. It's a crime that an acquaintance's father went to jail for, and he was a member of the Klan. If someone is working in this country illegally, of course they're going to be guilty of tax evasion. However, that's a completely separate issue than the one we're discussing.

It's ignorant because you're applying one standard to your grandparents and a completely different one to the new immigrants who just got here. Either everyone gets the same break or no one does.

Bilingual education is teaching every subject in two or more languages. Aboloshing it doesn't mean you can't take French or Spanish or German language classes. :shakehead:

If I were to go to ANY other country and immigrate legally even, I would be expected to assimilate into that nation's culture, learn that nation's language and that would be that. Case closed.

So why should we bend over backwards and become a bilingual nation? Especially when the vast majority are illegally here?

I don't care if it is today or 100 years ago, people who come to this country need to assimilate into our society, NOT our society needs to assimilate to accomodate.... that is irrational and bullshit.

When my great great grandparents stepped of the boat with my great grandmother and her brothers and sisters, they had learned English while on the boat. When they settled in Ohio, they worked hard to be Americans and proud. They didn't cry and demand that America become more German.

Same with my Italian ancestors.

Is it not already bad enough that by allowing illegal immigration (and yes we have been allowing it), we have bankrupted hospitals, overloaded states budgets to take care of these illegals and treat them better than US citizens.

Is it not bad enough we have already allowed companies to throw out labor laws and hire illegals?

Is it not bad enough we have people ready to hand our country over to Felons? Illegal Aliens commit a felony when they cross the border illegally...they need to be tried as such and sent back for good, instead of getting thrown across the border and being back in this country as soon as the police leave the area.

For the love of God, I hate what this country has become since PC...... we are not African-American, Jewish-American, German-American, Italian-American...etc.

WE ARE FUCKING AMERICANS.... WE ARE CITIZENS OF THE GREATEST COUNTRY THE EARTH HAS EVER SEEN.

WE DO NOT NEED TO ASSIMILATE TO ANYONE ESPECIALLY ILLEGALS, IT IS A SLAP IN THE FACE TO THOSE THAT CAME HERE, LEARNED ENGLISH AND ASSIMILATED BECAUSE THEY WANTED A BETTER LIFE.

I'm sorry Central America is fucked. I'm sorry you're poor, hunger, tired and your governments are corrupt..... BUT STOP COMING INTO MY COUNTRY ILLEGALLY AND DEMANDING I CHANGE FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!! FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!!!

Change your own damned governments.... wait that would require hard work, getting organized and actually having to do something.

Our country is sick, we are in need of healing ourselves. If you want to come over LEGALLY and help us rebuild, great. BUT don't you dare come over and demand we assimilate to you.

I have never believed in a death penalty, but as I have stated before, I am willing to vote for politicians that will put up fences, a deadman zone and give orders to shoot to kill any and all illegals trying to cross the border.

I am tired of this shit. Change your own damned country and leave ours alone.

i wanted to say what mm said above.
the name of the political position that generates this kind of hysteria and which tries to benefit from it politically is neofascism.
newt gringrich is attempting to capitalize on a few years of exactly this kind of hysteria and would like to benefit from it politically.
therefore...

seaver: doesn't your argument assume a kind of monolingual education, really: you seem assume that the communities that you are looking at in holland do not learn dutch at all. that seems kinda strange. i dont think it is true. what you might have is the reproduction of heavily accented dutch across generations--in which case the issue really would be accent as one of a series of social markers, and the problem would really be less the possibility of communication than it would be the interconnectedness of accent as social marker with other dimensions of racism directed against these communities.

much of the "debate" above seems to operate on really reductive assumptions that have little to do with reality: the assumption that bilingual education means that folk from immigrant or migrant labor communities do not learn english at all is goofy--people adapt to their environments and being able to function in english is an adaptation to the us context. what might well be true is what i noted with reference to seaver's paper: that it is POSSIBLE BUT NOT INEVITABLE that a bilingual education would result in maintaining accented english--and the problem there is much more about american racism and xenophobia than it is about any of the banalities concerning english as linked somehow to a fixed, immutable americanness that is somehow being threatened by a Contaminant (and again welcome to the world of neofascist "logic"--you folks repeat it without really questioning it, so what does that make you insofar as this non-issue is concerned?)

I'm not a moderator, and I didn't call anyone on TFP an idiot. You can disagree with someone without disrespecting them. It's right there in the rules.

Not really, I have felt this way since I was in Cali. in 1989 and saw firsthand the illegal problem in this country. I just feel it has kept getting worse and we need to put an end to it.

And no, they are not learning English, because we are making it so they do not need to. We are assimilating for them, they are NOT assimilating for us and our country.

Us and them.

If they are here legally, pan, it is their country, too.

QED

Whether you like it or not, I think it is by the year 2060, white Americans will no longer comprise more than 50% of the population.

Maybe it would behoove us to learn Spanish?

Ah, but the LEGAL ones actually want to assimilate and are proud of their oppurtunites here. They work hard and are given great chances and succeed probably moreso than most who have been born here, because the LEGAL Alien has drive to be better and to be a part of this great country.

The ILLEGAL is a parasitic disease minded criminal that comes here and takes all they can and demands we change for them.

Ask any LEGAL alien if they felt they had to learn English or if they wanted to learn English because they were proud to be here.

The LEGAL alien as a whole are not the ones demanding change. Now, maybe some politicos and some that cater to illegals do, but only because they see gain in it.

My ex-stepfather in law was a LEGAL Mexican immigrant and he worked hard, learned English, and is a very successful man. He doesn't believe the US should assimilate to suit him. He assimilated because as he said, "why would I want to change the place that gives me so many oppurtunities?"

It makes no sense. ILLEGALS ARE ILLEGAL AND HAVE COMMITTED FELONIES.... THEY ARE CRIMINALS... WE SHOULD TREAT THEM AS SUCH.

Trust me we would be treated as such in thier countries and the very people who are ILLEGALLY coming into this country would be the first ones to demand we get punished to the fullest extent of their laws.

You don't see them saying, "Let's make everything Bilingual here and spend BILLIONS of our taxes on treating their sick for free, while our own citizens have to be dying in order to get a band-aid from a hospital."

Wow, just like the original immigrants did? The Native Americans?

Or do you mean like the original Spanish that were here in, say, Florida? Or California? :)

I think we already are. I think that we passed it not too long ago or were really close to passing it.

This has nothing to do with White Americans tho, but if we make it look like it does.... well, we can call everyone who wants to preserve our nation Racists and then we'll win because we labelled them and PC will be on our side... Jolly Good. :rolleyes:

No, this has to do with OUR country as we know it as our ancestors ADDED to it and as we try to keep it alive. Again, my ancestors took pride in learning English and in assimilating, they DID NO NOT NEVER expect this country to assimilate to them. They knew if it assimilated to them, then it wasn't the great country they had dreamt of coming to. If it assimilated to them, either it did so to garner their support (and thus would drop them and go to the next major immigrant population) or it would become more like the country they left believing they had no oppurtunities there.

IF YOU COME HERE ILLEGALLY YOU COMMITTED A FELON, YOU ARE A CRIMINAL.... YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO DEMAND ANYTHING OF THIS COUNTRY.

It would probably be wise for most students in the U.S. to learn Spanish. There are already several states and cities where it is almost necessary to speak it to get by.

Almost every major party presidential candidate is advocating amnesty for illegals and the employers who hire them. The Senate has already voted for amnesty and the newly elected House is probably not far behind. President Bush is also for amnesty. The last time we did this (under Reagan I think) the illegal population increased dramatically, and the same thing will probably happen again.

I believe most polititians believe that the gain of Hispanic votes offsets the English only crowd. It seems like the U.S. will become somewhat like Canada with the French language requirements. I don't think that most people who are against bilingual education are fascists.

:thumbsup: Cool bring up history about how the White Man stole this country. Try to play on people's guilt for what their ancestors did. (Ahem, speaking of Spanish... what exactly did Cortez do again to the proud Aztec people? And what did Ponce DeLeon do again to the Indians?)

Yeah Baby....... slam us, make us look and feel like we are the evil ones who have never done anything but take over and destroy things.

We didn't take this great land and turn it into the greatest country. (Of course we're in decay now, because for too long we have tried to become something for everyone and have lost our nation's identity). You can live in the past or you can admit mistakes and move on making the best of what you got.

History has been made of wars and countries taking over other countries. If the ILLEGALS wanted to go to war... fine... but they don't.

What the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT wants is to have everything handed to him and to be a parasite on our nation. They aren't trying to better our country... they want our country to accomodate them and they expect us to roll over and do whatever they want us to.

Yes, they should learn English. Yes, Gingrich is a pompous ass.

Agreed on both accounts. I really don't think asking them to come over LEGALLY, learning to speak English and assimilating into our culture and adding to it if they want is asking too much.

And yes, Gingrich is a pompous ass who is only doing this to further himself. He's trying to win the Buchananites over.

One small point that has gotten lost is that Bush, in one of his few bi-partisan acts with Congress,effectively ended the way we treat bilingual education with the passage of No Child Left Behind Act....and the replacement of the Bilingual Education Act with the new 'English Language Acquisition, Language Enhancement, and Academic Achievement Act' which has a greater emphasis on teaching english so that it is learned more quickly than under the old Biligual Ed Act, which many saw as providing a crutch rather than an inducement.

The fact that there was no opposition to the change in policy, even among the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, is an indication that the old bilingual approach needed fixing.

Where I think many are concerned is in the heated rhetoric...from the talk of a "ghetto language" to the notion that illegal immigration in itself is a felony (illegal immigration is less than a misdomeanor) and are parasites on the system and the misconception regarding "amnesty".

I think we are all best served when we keep the discussions rational and recognize that we benefit from the best of all cultures that have contributed to the country and we should ensure that future immigration is legal and fair, with no stigma on language and culture of one's nation of origin.

I'll be 98.

Who cares? :D


Ahhh...who'm I kiddin'? Ain't no way, on this green earth, I'm makin' it to see 98. :no:

The question is will this growing population be American, or will they be Mexicans living in America who wave the Mexican flag and only speak Spanish?

You speak in generalizations. ILLEGALS as if they are a lazy, Spanish-speaking amorphous ooze bent on your destruction, ala The Blob. LEGALS as if they are all flag-waving pillars of virtue crowned with garlands of daisies and bent on being "good Americans."

I don't really have much to address to that kind of thinking.


Everything changes, pan. Do you suppose America is same as it was when your ancestors arrived here?

I love all the gross generalizations in this thread. "All legal aliens" are insert here. "All illegal aliens" are insert here. They are all individuals. There are no universals, only trends among the individuals.

Many legal aliens arrive here knowing little or no English. Some illegals are fluent - I know a few.

I also think that we're all (myself included) getting dangerously close to violating Rule 1 of the guidelines, specifically the discussion of race. For everyone's health and wellbeing, here's a reminder:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=45061

If we keep in this direction, I may ask a disinterested 3rd party to review and decide whether or not to shut this thread down.

Sorry, I think this is reactionary. I live around Hispanic people every day of my life. The apartment complex I live in is probably 90% Hispanic. There is a small but vocal segment of the Mexican immigrant community that parcels out inflammatory rhetoric about reclaiming parts of the southwestern US, but the vast majority of immigrants both legal and illegal are just busy trying to get by. Activism is a luxury that people too busy picking fruit and cleaning bathrooms can't afford.

To clarify my stance. Yes, immigrants should learn english. No, I don't expect them to know perfect English, but I also don't expect the government to keep making exceptions and changes to accomodate people who speak Spanish or any other language.

In a capitolistic society, its to my benefit that I learn another language. On the same hand, I feel that the government is failing me if they create a situation where I HAVE to know another language. I shouldn't have to change my lifestyle, or language just because a bunch of people decide to move in next door. I am all about people keeping their cultural traditions, but I am not interested in changing my culture and traditions to accomodate other people's cultures. Especially when they moved here voluntarily.

They Native Americans didn't give a damn about European culture and made no effort to accomodate it, and even then the Native American cultures were for the most part wiped out. I don't think my culture and traditions are better than anyone elses, but they are mine, and I will fight to keep them.

This whole argument, whatever direction it goes in, will always end up back at illegal immigration, which is the source of probably 95% of the animosity on all sides.

That is really what Gingrich is railing against, and is why people will listen. Hell, I don't particularly like him (although he does write some pretty good Civil War-based alternative historical fiction :p), and think how he said what he said is idiotic, but I do agree with the idea that giving benefits to people who literally break the first law of ours that they come into contact with by illegally crossing the border is a threat.

At least we can all agree that Newt really is one :p

Thanks to the shroud of anonymity of the internet, I can safely say that my parents and I came here illegally. I also know of four others who did the same, all with kids. Today, we're all *American Citizens*. I, along with some of the other kids, am getting a college education. About half are now successful (one owns his own company and speaks English...kinda), but that's due to family ties and tons of help from family. I come from the other half, from people who work their hands and feet to the bone just to make enough money to pay for food, rent, and even send money back to estranged family in Cuba. As I stated above, it just isn't possible to work full time and immerse yourself into learning another language.

How can you make such a distastefully gross generalization about immigrants. It seems you base your image of immigrants from the roving Mexican gangs of the west or something.

I can tell you for a fact that of those who came here illegally, when the opportunity came, became citizens, and they'd gladly defend this country to the death. To think otherwise is foolish. You seem to think that all immigrants come here to take your tax money and health care. You're making them the enemy, and you couldn't be further from the truth.

You need to learn to see people as human beings, not numbers and foreign entities who come to take your shit. It's funny...If it were up to you, my family and I, as well as so many genuinely wonderful people who have fallen into bad times through no fault of their own, would all be dead in your blessed "deadman's zone".

I was offended by this sentiment, as well. But hysteria seems to bring this sort of thing out in people.

Thanks for your post.

That's what I love about the TFP. :D
What a cross section of society we have. :thumbsup:

Fascinating read there, Arch.

I know that it gives me something to chew on and mull over.

Since host is apparently taking the day off, here's an interesting story out of California:

http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_5568917

This thread took a weird jaunt into this territory earlier. I think it's relevant to shed light on the fact that lots of folks are struggling with this question.

Thanks for sharing your story.
You have a unique perspective on this so I am curious, Do you think that there should be laws against illegal immigration or should the borders be open to all?

My wife immigrated from behind the iron curtain (when there still was one) and citizenship was granted for anyone who could escape. She said she would have gone anywhere to get away from communism but the U.S. was easiest to get into at that time and she could only speak Czech, English, some Russian and German.

:shakehead:

Right back atcha.

First, it's called "a joke". I'm not sure what it is in Spanish.

Second, guess what? - English Canadian, here, raised in bilingual fashion in French Quebec. I can safely say, it didn't hurt and in fact, expanded my career options.

Language changes and evolves. Everyone needs to relax a little, who takes such things too seriously.

It's funny that the Minutemen want to separate themselves from the KKK and white supremacists. The Minutemen have long standing ties to the National Alliance, which is one of the largest neo-nazi organizations in the US. They even recruit directly out of the KKK.

flstf

That's precisely the case why borders can't just be closed, in my opinion. The US has always been a center for humanity, always accepting people from around the world when they were down. "Bring us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses yearning to be free," we used to say. For some reason some portions of the US has lost its roots, and now it wants to be alone, one United America for united Americans, the rest of the world be damned. This isn't how things should work. Like I said in an earlier post, I may be biased because I've been granted the opportunity, but this nation, based on its principles, can't just give the cold shoulder to foreigners. Jews, Italians, Irish, Germans, British, Russians, Africans, Cubans, Mexicans, Colombians, you name it...They've all come here for a better life, and most of the time the US has come through with its promise. There's no reason we should start making things more difficult for people who are already in turmoil (why would you consider moving to another country if not for some bad stuff going on?).

Also, something for those who are making a huge deal about language to consider: Every first generation child or teen who comes here is going to learn English. I can't help but think that some people don't realize that. Yeah, my parents might never learn to speak English, and new immigrants in their 20s-30s might have a hard time trying, but realize that this is only a problem for a relatively small amount of time as children and teens will learn (and then, as was my case, they will be the English tongue of their parents).

About 75% of them probably came through places like Ellis Island and similar centers where they entered the country LEGALLY.

An analogy for this (expanded from a similar one I heard not long ago) is owning a bed and breakfast. People come in, sleep there, eat there, and pay you a fee for the right. You are a generous person, so you show a willingness to negotiate that fee, so that everyone can enjoy your hospitality.

However, people start breaking in the place in the night, sleeping there and eating in the morning, without paying. They claim that because you have opened your doors to others, they should be allowed to come in whenever they want and receive the same services as others, even though they aren't even willing to do things the way everyone else does.

If you owned that place, would you let those people stay? I sure as Hell wouldn't.

That's a really good point, and there's really no way to argue against it. It would be ideal if all the local governments of the Hispanic countries would only act synchronously so as to expedite the processing of immigrants coming to this country legally, but that's not the case. As it stands, it can take as long as 10 *years* for such paperwork to be completed. Frankly, that's ridiculous, and I can understand why some would just choose to sneak in illegally, rather than wait as long as 10 years to be let in legally. I'm not condoning it, of course, but when presented with such a circumstance...I can see why some (or most) would just come illegally.

i dunno, my family got everyone over here over about 15 years. It took time, patience, and doing things the right way, legally. There were many months I did not get to sleep in my own bedroom for a good part of my youth.

so it takes time, big deal. oh right, they want it NOW.

Agreed. I'm just trying to rationalize their decision.

How about, humanize their decision.

Oh, I agree completely.

If I was in charge (STOP LAUGHING!) I would have it so that it was as easy as possible to get people in legally, with no limits or anything like that, while keeping our borders secure. I would even (against my fiscal conservatism) go so far as providing accelerated English and citizenship programs for those who would want to do it, with short-term welfare benefits upon completion (basically a couple months until they became settled and employed).

If people want to be here, for the right reasons, we should welcome them. However, if they don't want to follow our rules (and by being illegal, they are, even if they are perfect citizens otherwise) they shouldn't be given anything.

in a related thought, i find it interesting to juxtapose the concern that many americans are feeling over the concept with a national language and the preservation of american english, with the fact that thanks to the economic and political/military domination of the british empire and the united states, english is the dominant language of business and intellectual thought throughout the world. i guess chinese could eventually take that over, but i don't think english is on the way out any time soon. i wonder if this conversation occurred with latin? i'm sure it must have.

i personally would like to see a hightened emphasis on learning languages in our schools, and yes it would seem that spanish would be a wise choice. i recognize that its an issue worthy of serious consideration, and certainly having a common language helps with communication; but i don't see it warranting this level of hysteria.

Will, this is the perfect post. Sums it up quite nicely.

Nope. Your anecdote is just you. I know many illegals who do not think the way you do. At all. I am surrounded by themand have to endure the dirty looks by them all day long.

I do see people as human beings and it is a two-way street. It is they who do not see me as a human being despite my friendly overtures. Even when I speak Spanish I have to put up with the rolled eyes and nasty attitudes.

When we speak of illegals, it is ALL illegals. I don't care if they are British, Canadian, Mexican, Chines or Indonesian. Go and apply for a visa and get in line like the rest of us. We are a great nation of immigrants no doubt, but it is totally wack for one group to keep demanding special treatment when the rest of us did it the legal way and learned the local language.

English is my second language but I am doing just fine thank you. I have a decent grasp and command of the language and do my best to everyday.

I really don't understand why they refuse to learn when the rest if us did, including my 84 year old grandma who now, funny enough, teaches English to other immigrant grandmas.

I don't know if it's really hysteria but rather more of an annoyance thing. We do learn a second language in school, it's required for graduation both in high school and in college. No one is against Spanish or Mexicans, I think people are more against the idea of people not willing to learn the language that unifies the various diversity of our nation's peoples. I think that distinction often gets lost in the discussion because people get so riled up and obessed with making it an anti-Latino thing.

Spanish is not a very good choice. I only use Spanish for casual use such as taco stands or communicating with laborers. Chinese is by far the smarter decision in picking up a second language, especially if you want to do business or work at a MNC that does a lot of business with China. But even then, you probably really don't have to since most Chinese already speak English as it is compulsory for them to learn in school.

This is a lovely post DJ, I agree with you completely. Well written.

Source this or retract it, and I don't mean with quotes from La Raza, Voz de Aztlan, or MeCHA. I am not a MinuteMan member, but I have friends who are, and I have followed this project from its' inception. They have always made a -very- public effort to prevent White Supremacists from joining, and this isn't the first adversarial run-in they've had with the KKK/NA crowd. They have members from every ethnic group, including hispanics, so I'd very much like to see where you're getting this.

There were several incidents of KKK types trying to join Civillian Border Patrol and Ranch Rescue, but they were purged. Such peopl are persona non grata in these groups, and for good reasons; not the least of which is avoiding spurious accusations of racism.

jorgelito, where do you live? I'll admit that I live in Florida and my story revolves around the local people. Every immigrant I know here knows or is actively studying English, except for my father. I really don't know what the case is like in the west. I assumed it was similar to here, but that was just speculation on my part.

Agreed.
Where does that come from, Will? Is it conjecture? Everything that I have read, about The Minutemen, points completely contrary to your statement. They have gone out of thier way to avoid any ties, real or perceived, with racist and supremicist organizations.

i dont see the problem. there is a very close connection between xenophobia and racism--read through this thread if you doubt it---and groups like the minutemen operate in an ambiguous space wherein the two often drift into and (superficially) out of each other--personally, i think the possibility of this drift (both ways) is a significant element of such appeal as this sorry group has.
is the problem that a formal affiliation was posited?
what difference does that really make?
they are of a piece with a deeply problematic logic concerning immigration and/or migrant labor flows. and this is not a recruitment site for the minutemen, so it seems to me that the folk who support them should own the implications of the logic that makes them possible.

unless you seriously believe that a group like the minutemen can distinguish the logic upon which they operate from racism simply by not affiliating with explicitly racist organizations. that seems to me a public relations matter, having nothing at all to do with the actual issue of whether a militia group predicated on xenophobia that deploys to "protect the border" from contamination is in itself problematic. i think it is problematic. i think it is deeply problematic, based on the same kind of nitwit logic that gingrich used in his weekend bonbon that is the starting point for this sad sad thread.

I have to agree with roachboy here. I think that xenophobia and racism are separated only by degrees. That's my largest problem with this entire thread. While I certainly agree that illegal immigration causes problems, I think that some of the reactions to it are closer to racism than anything else.

I can agree to that to some point, but I think that's painting a very broad stroke.

My issues with all of this is that the rules were posted and many people followed them effectively and successfully, namely my parents and extended family of about 20 people. My irritation on this whole subject is that why do some have to follow the law and others don't?

Please also note that Illegal immigration is not endemic to the United States, many countries with strong economies are experiencing this kind of situation around the world. My irritation works for that as well since my wife and I would like to expatriate to another country for a period of our lives and cannot do so legally because of the chicken egg situation, no one will hire us because we don't have papers, governments won't give us papers because we have no job sponsor.

But we're not talking about xenophobia OR racism.

We're talking about getting people to follow rules and assimilate into the culture of the country that they WANT to come to, instead of the people already here being forced to bend to them.

djtestudo, I don't think you can separate the issues. They're far too intertwined to discuss one without the other, especially since I think that xenophobia is at least partially responsible for "forcing" anything on anyone.

Then there's the fact that one of the private groups out to eradicate illegal immigration is certainly xenophobic and might be racist if willravel can document his claim adequately. The Minutemen exist to keep "them" out of "here". They have no other mandate as a group.

No, the MinuteMen exist to assist the US Border Patrol; the Border Patrol exists to keep "them" out of "here" until they follow the rules. Ranch Rescue and CBP exist to keep trespassers off private property; people's farms. Hence the name Ranch Rescue.

Disagree... Xenophobia and racism aren't the same thing. They tend to overlap a lot, but that doesn't make them the same thing. The minuteman thing and this deal with Gingrich is more akin to nationalism or culturalism.

It's also worth noting that the minutemen don't exist to keep "them" out of "here". They exist to keep some of them out of here. These guys aren't writing their congressmen in their spare time to restrict ALL immigration, and they're not patrolling avenues of legal immigration. The distinction is huge.

Until someone can actually document a connection between the minutemen and racist groups, linking the two is really no more than a slur.

This isn't about racism or xenophobia it is about not having to change my country for people who enter this country illegally and expect my country to change for them.

It is about seeing the little shacks they live in about 25 miles up the road where a farmer exploits them, yet where they can get drunk, run over a 16 year old girl and "disappear" or rob a store at gunpoint and the worse that happens is they get tossed back to Mexico, only to return the next year and nothing happens.

It is about going out and having the Mexican flag waved in your face while they use an American flag to sit on.

It is in knowing if I went to their country illegally I would be thrown into their prison system. It is in knowing if I were to go to their country and treat their citizens like I am treated in MY country by them I would be in their prison system.

It is in knowing they (the vast majority) have no desire to speak English or even care about this country.

It is in knowing that my government has set aside BILLIONS for their healthcare because they have bankrupted hospitals, tied up and overflown medical facilities in the Southwest and expect free medical care..... while I see natural born US citizens on a daily basis get kicked out of a hospital, not get treated at all, simply because the hospital doesn't have to treat you unless you are in a life or death situation.

As I have stated before if ILLEGALS can get away with ignoring the law the second they enter this country, then why have laws at all?

Why can't we all just do whatever the Hell we want and expect a slap on the wrist, amnesty, not having to pay bills or anything else?

I mean Hell we don't need laws, they discriminate against the stupid, self centered, people who believe society owes them and that they don't need society's values to advance.

Pan:

How can you know that "they" don't care about this country?

How can you know that "they" don't have any desire to speak English?

Why is it even relevant that they don't speak English? If it is about the laws and breaking laws as people have previously stated, there is no law mandating English as the national language. As this is the case, why then do people have a problem with people speaking languages other than English?

Why is the distinction made between ILLEGALS and natural born US citizens? Is it important that they are "natural born"? I think that statements distinguishing natural born US citizens point toward something more than a concern about ILLEGAL immigration. It suggests xenophobia.

I don’t see the huge horde of ILLEGALS forcing me to assimilate. I don’t see the ILLEGALS trying to destroy America.

More generally, it seems to me that if you want immigrants to adjust to life in the United States as quickly as possible, you might want bilingual education to get them started. There is more to learning about living in the US than the English language.

There seems to be a disconnect between the ideas behind the founding of this nation, current attitudes about immigrants, and current immigration law.

ok this thread is really sickening. between the various explosions of rhetoric that would be explicitly fascist in the old school sense of the term if you were to substitute "the jews" for "illegals"--same rhetoric, same racist underpinnings, whether you acknowledge it or not--to the delerium concerning the politics of "border protection" like the minutemen and border patrol together function as a giant condom protecting the mighty american penis from contamination....every last one of the "anti-illegal" posts here is
noxious.

before i check out, let me just say: i live in a very diverse neighborhood. for example, if you walk along fullerton ave. which is a block from here, you will pass a cuban resto, a mexican resto, a colombian resto, a puerto rican resto: you will pass a couple computer stores whcih have spanish signs in the windows; you will pass clinics that serve a largely spanish speaking demographic. if you go the other way, there is an argentine place a peruvian place...the nearest bodega is run by folk from honduras...alot of these folk speak heavily accented english and are obviously more comfortable communicating in spanish. in many cases, the same obtains for their kids.

so what?

by the "logic" of this revolting little thread, all of them would be understood as "illegals".... because the distinction being worked here is not predicated on ANY rational criteria, but rather on the relationship to english, which is understood as an index of "assimilation"--well, folks, that is idiotic.
the folk i reference above own their own fucking businesses, they work them as best they can--they have staff in some cases, on other cases they do not. their legal status is not really in question--nor would the question occur to you. but i suppose you could turn up in any of these in your minutemen camo and "protect" us from the plague of people whose english isnt fluent--but if you did, i would be inclined to join many others in kicking the living shit out of you--not "them"--but you.


the idea that migrant labor flows are adequately described as "illegal immigrant" populations is ridiculous--even within documented workers, reverse migration accounts for in many cases up to 80% of the population that enters the country. when you refer to migrant workers as "illegal immigrants" you are set up a phantasm. rather than do even the smallest amount of work to figure out what you are talking about, you prefer to lean on television banalities about the united states as the most deisrable country on the planet, constantly beseiged by the Great Unwashed who want only to Come Here and make their Squalid Lives Better blah blah blah.

the only advantages to it are: (1) because they are entering and leaving the states outside of official stats, your xenophobic-to-racist positions cannot be easily falsified--though even simple inferences can be made using what data there is that wrecks such logic as there is behind your positions and (2) migrant laborers are totally powerless, so they make easy targets for petit bourgeois neofascist style resentment. over the past 90 years or so, it has always like this: it is all too easy to channel petit bourgeois class anxiety onto populations that are even more powerless then they are. it was a significant draw for the s.a. in the late 1920s germany, a significant draw for the poujadistes, a significant draw for the entire history of whacked out american fascist organizations: it is a significant draw for every neofascist organization in europe and apparently for the lots of folk who position themselves as conservatives in the states as well.
and in every case, the ideology is the same thing.
call it something else if it makes you feel better, but the labelling is therapeutic, not accurate, a figleaf you place over fundamentally repugnant political positions.

you want to stop migrant labor flows? go after the employers who hire them. but if you do that, then you cant use this idiotic language criteria to create some hallucinated "other" that poses some vague "threat" to a white english-speaking amurica....no doubt it is much more fun to be a xenophobe-to-racist (depending only on the immediate situation) and then worry about how you are going to deny it.

the entire political logic around this issue is dangerous screwed up: it enables perfectly nice people to remake themselves into the functional equivalent of brownshirts without even their being aware that they are doing it. this too is a constant in extreme right politics--it is a twisted variant on premises that appear to be "common sense"--but they aren't. they are Other. if you cant see it, the problem is yours.

You didn't say please, but I'll post a source anyway:
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?aid=13

They've tried to avoid official ties, but they do recruit heavily out of the National Alliance. It only makes sense, really. Who would be better to keep Mexicans in Mexico than people who want to 'keep America white'? When Gim Gilchrist, the head of the Minutemen, was on Democracy Now!, he was challenged in a debate about having ties to the National Alliance. He didn't deny it, but ended the interview without giving response. Had he publicly made any negative statements about the National Alliance or any other white supremacist groups, he would have been risking losing a great deal of Minutemen. In fact, when Gilchrist has rarely come out and said that the Minutemen is not a supremacist groups he has lost members.

The Minutemen are not good guys. They are both racists and xenophobes. They prey on those that are less fortunate and have no choice but to try and cross the border. I really enjoyed the episode of 30 days where a Minuteman had to live with an immigrant family. I only wish all Minutemen had that opportunity.

While formal institutional connections may not exist, their overlapping interests and agenda on this issue are mutually supporting.
The ignornance and vitriolic gross mischaracterizations of those here who couch their intolerance in the "save America from the illegals" rhetoric sickens me as well.

Illegal immigration is an issue we must address as a nation. I only hope reasonable minds prevail and that it is done in a rational manner with respect for human dignity and the core values of our nation. I further hope that your American never becomes my America.

roachboy speaks the truth.

I haven't been this disgusted with a conversation since my Debate Politics days. But, at least there I had a pretty good idea of which direction the right-wing shitstorm would be coming from.

I'm sorry but I cannot understand how or where Xenophobic and Racist comes into play from my stance of following rules?

My mother in law wanted to stay in the UK but here divorced her British husband before papers were completed, her artist visa expired and she had to come back to the US. She followed the rules. She desperately wanted to stay in London but could not since she did not want to break any laws.

My disdain for my cousins who overstayed visas how is that xenophobic or racist?

Ah, cyn, you've gotten to the core of the issue.

Your disdain for your cousins is just fine and perfectly acceptable. It nothing to do with racism or xenophobia and more with family politics.

Racism and xenophobia rear their ugly head when we talk about groups, not individuals. And that's the basic problem that a lot of us (roachboy, mixedmedia, me) are having with this discussion. We're not talking about individuals; people here are condemning entire groups. There's already been a well-written attempt to humanize the problem, but it seems to have fallen by the wayside too soon.

And The_Jazz hits a homer, as well.

Xenophobia and racism come from a tendency to think of a group or groups as "other." Back in our old glory days of racism, in between the Civil War and Civil Rights, it was very common for people were very actively racist to have friendships with the "good" black man who comes to work in their yard or the "good" black woman who does their laundry and at the same time harbor violent hatred for the black "other." It's a mindset that is deceptive and, in history, has taken hold of groups during times of societal change and perceptions of danger from the outside resulting in extreme anti-social behavior and genocide. Now I may come across as reactionary myself, so be it. But you can't deny history. And we've already seen one person on this thread call for the execution of illegal immigrants crossing the border with no real outrage from anyone other than those on this side of the argument.

I'm still failing to see this, as I am applying my disdain for the family members to the same groups of people that are crossing our borders illegally, those that come here on visas and overstay.

I cannot speak for anyone else but myself, but I do not want "those" people to be here, based on the simplicity of not using the due process to get here, but wanting to use due process to allow themselves to stay.

If it were not illegal, would you be against it? Please, just a yes or no. The idea would be to question if you believe that the law makes sense.

Cyn, perhaps another point in your favor in that my neat little solution was neither neat nor a solution - just like the real world. You fall outside my xenophobia/racism argument for the most part. Honestly, most first and second generation immigrants usually do, and they're typically harder on illegals than others.

What I find interesting is that no one has mentioned the thousands of illegal European immigrants that are here. The two Polish women that work for the cleaning service my wife hired are almost certainly illegally working, if not here illegally. I know of at least 5 fencing coaches in Chicago that are here on expired visas, one of whom coached 2 athletes to national championships and makes well over $100k/year. They're all here illegally, but because they got off a plane and didn't have to walk in, they get less attention.

Will - Yes.

So if the type of immigration specified were legal, you'd still be against it. Why?

Look, I'm neither racist nor xenophobic.... believe what you will, I truly don't care. My stance is simple.... you come into this country illegally, you have shown no respect for our laws and you are a criminal and need to be treated as such.

No ifs, no ands, no buts.

If I were to go to any Central American country or even Canada illegally, I would be a criminal and I would expect to be treated as such. Very, very few countries would say, "you broke our laws, but that's ok.... here let's change our language for you, here let's make sure you are comfortable. You came here illegally, but that's ok.... we can choose and pick what laws we want to follow and enforce."

You don't like the immigration laws and how one has to go about getting into this country, change the laws, vote for congressional leaders and presidents that will change the laws....until then, however, illegals are illegals and thus they are criminals who have no respect for our laws or our country.

Millions of people work hard and sacrifice every year (sometimes for years) to become legal citizens and it is a slap in their faces when we say "it's ok come over illegally.... fuck the laws."

I don't care who comes over legally. I am secure in who I am to not care about one's race, ethnicity etc..... but you come over illegally... yes, I will stereotype you, yes, I will treat you less than and yes, I will hold no respect for you, becuase you showed my country and all that I believe and hold dear to mean nothing to you.

You come illegally, you prove you have no respect for our laws and customs and in essence this country.

You come illegally, you can say I'm racist, you can say I xenophobic, that I am a skinheaded, neo Nazistic, KKK member, I don't fucking care.... because basically you showed me you are nothing but a criminal and labelling me because I am calling you on your shit is solely done to make you feel better.

When you look at it from the outside the people calling the names and doing the labelling of law abiding citizens are those that are ok with people who break the law.

If you mean that people can just freely walk into our borders as if they were crossing the street being legalized, again Yes, that is not acceptable.

I can see from where I now eat my lunches a glaring hole in the skyline of Lower Manhattan. I can see from my bedroom, and my living room that same missing building space. Our immigration services failed us then and if our borders are porous as they are now they are still failing us now.

I've spent a good amount of time reading about the immigrants who came via Ellis Island, while my parents did not go come through there, I am still fascinated by the process that methodology for processing immigrants coming into the US. Illness and disease was quite common, so if you so much as coughed you could easily be sent back on another boat.

Whooping cough and tuberculosis is on the rise in NYC supposedly becuase of illegal immigration. Xenophobia? Perhaps, but I don't like getting stuck with that TB test and having to come back to the doctor's office to have them look at it and say there's nothing there. Great, I just wasted my time taking off from work etc. That is a direct annoyance and an inconvenience to me.

I am all for due process, you want to come here, then come here under the legal methods. My mother as soon as she was naturalized took every opporutnity to vote for changes in immigration laws as did a number of her friends and collegues. That's working the existing system as it should be done. It may take years but that's what it takes. It should not be done with blatant disregard to laws and legal processes. If the Spanish voting block voted to have the laws changed then so be it.

Pan..I havent seen anyone here condone illegal immigration.

What I find offensive is the over-the-top reaction, starting with a false assumption:

Illegal Aliens commit a felony when they cross the border illegally..
**as I understand current immigration law, crossing the border without proper documentation is an "unlawful act" which is less than a misdomeanor (like jaywalking) and overstaying a visa is a misdomeanor.**

followed by:
I am willing to vote for politicians that will put up fences, a deadman zone and give orders to shoot to kill any and all illegals trying to cross the border.
** you dont shoot and kill for a misdomeanor offense**

and the equall outrageous:
The ILLEGAL is a parasitic disease minded criminal that comes here and takes all they can and demands we change for them.
** an ugly and ignorant characterization**

What the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT wants is to have everything handed to him and to be a parasite on our nation. They aren't trying to better our country... they want our country to accomodate them and they expect us to roll over and do whatever they want us to.
*** what most of "them" want is to provide for their families*

where they can get drunk, run over a 16 year old girl and "disappear" or rob a store at gunpoint and the worse
*** most illegals go about quietly doing their job, paying taxes (yes they pay taxes) and minding their own business. The criminals among them should be treated as criminals.***

I'll say again, I dont condone illegal immigration. We have a problem, that we, as a nation, must confont. It starts with toning down the rhetotic and finding a solution that meets the level of the "crime", is reasonable and practical, and serves the best interest of the country.

IMO, that is to provide a path towards citiizenship for most of the illegals here (those who are contributing with jobs, no criminal record, etc) along with paying back taxes and a fine, and getting in line (in some fashion) for proper documentation.

The alternative is to round-up 12+ million illegals, and looking beyond the feasibility of such a measure, one can only wonder how many legals would be caught up in such a sweep.

hold up pan, do you have this same level of contempt for everyone who breaks a united states law? in the most outstretched case: american citizens who speed? what about kids who played rock and roll? is this really just about disrespect for our "accepted" culture? that just doesn't seem logical...we do that all on our own. culture isn't a stagnant thing; it is constantly in the process of morphing. i think this has been stated many times before in the thread, but you are taking a pretty complex situation, erecting a massive strawman fallacy out of it, and then railing against the people who fall outside of "your side." its definitely an issue that needs to be addressed, but setting up rifles on the border? these are people man.

in general, you can't expect to have a huge economic disparity such as that between the us and mexico, for example, and expect people not to react to it. things are blending in together; and what else could you rationally expect with the economics of the situation, plus increased travel and communication. this is happening everywhere, and there's not much that can be done to stop it. better regulate it? yes. to me, its much the same issue as globalization, in general, and quite close to the situation with overseas sweatshops. turns out, we have some jobs here that we're not particularly crazy about doing. you might not like that, but given the wages that are offered for the jobs, and wages offered across the border, the current situation is entirely predictable.

so what if our country becomes bilingual? its still about conversation, and frankly huge parts of the states have a strong hispanic history to them.

jorgelito: i considered chinese. it might happen. i think that the differences between chinese and english / most european languages will slow that affect down in terms of international diasphorization for common language communication; but knowing asian languages would and is already a big bonus in international businesses. i suspect the same will be true and is true of middle-eastern languages as the power crunch starts to crank up.

You (Pan) still don't seem to understand something, man. Actually, to be more fair, we have a difference in morality, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But I want you ot get something strait. People don't come here explicitly to ruin your life. They come here because they have some problem (war, poverty, etc...) and the solution is to move to a more prosperous country. If they can't move to said country hastily enough, what do you expect them to do? Stay there and starve or die while they wait for visas to clear and their governments (or ours) to get the ball rolling so they can come here? That's ridiculous. And yes...It's illegal. No one's debating that. But realize that this is one of those laws which splits people apart (case in point...).

It all goes back to moral arguments.

I don't remember where I read this, but consider this situation: In biblical time, you and your family are poor for reasons beyond your control, dying of starvation. You get caught stealing a piece of bread for your family. Did you break a law? Absolutely. But should you be condemned to prison (or killed) because of it? After all, you did break the law, and anyone who breaks the law is automatically evil and a shit of a person, right? According to your logic, this person is as bad as a murderer, or rapist. After all, they are all criminals...

Put yourself in the shoes of a person fleeing their country to come to ours. Get rid of this division of "me" and "them".

Since my case didn't make any difference in your view of us, consider the story of Jose Gutierrez. By your standards, a notorious criminal who deserved to rot in jail (for illegally coming to this country). He went to the join the Marines, to serve for his country, and make money for college and his sister. He was the first combat casualty of the war with Iraq. He died for us. Do you think if he hadn't been such a scumbag, you would be grateful? Whatever...He was just another dirty "illegal".