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As to the bilingual issue:
The 14th amendment to the Constitution provides that "no state shall abridge the privilieges of citizens... nor deny any person equal protection under the law." If that means bilingual education, multilingual ballots and other govt documents, while at the same time providing the opportunity for learning english....whats the big fucking deal? How does that hurt you or me? |
dc_dux
It doesn't. Newt Gingrich is just trying to gain points from his conservative republican/borderline ignorant racists. Since he's gaining in rank within republicans as a presidential candidate, I'm going to assume it's working... |
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Less restrictive is fine, they have changed immigration laws over time over decades. Less restrictive happens via due process like my mother and her collegues voting for representatives who were for less restrictive immigration or easier visas for healthcare workers.
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As far as INS making it safer, while terrorism is still possible, there are also just simple "normal" crimes, the DC Sniper should never have been here and would have not killed 10 people who were just going about their lives. |
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In any case, the Minutemen et al are NOT racist nor xenophobic. They are not anti-immigrant, they are anti-illegal immigrant. BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG difference. People all too often clud the issues and can't or won't make the distinction. There can't be any racism simply because Latino's are not a race. If you can show me how Ricky Martin and Sammy Sosa (both Latinos) are the same race then I will eat my hat. The Minutemen (God bless them) are also posted on our borders with Canada so let's not cloud the issues and try to create racism where none exists. The only thing shameful is the fact that they are doing the job our own government refuses to do and they are not even getting paid to do so. They would ratehr shake down my grandma at the airport than protect our nation's porous' borders. When my international friends ask how they can get a visa or emigrate to the US, I tell them, don't bother. Just go to Mexico and cross over from there. Quote:
I would also like to point out that the so-called Hispanic population in Cali overwhelmingly voted against driver's licenses for illegals. The Latino-American demographic is also against unlawful entry and illegal immigration. ILLEGAL, NOT, LEGAL. Quote:
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Again, no one is anti-Hispanic nor is anyone racist (mostly due to the fact that Hispanics ARE NOT A RACE). What people are against is illegla immigration, NOT legal immigration. How would that make us racist or xenophobic? I think part of the problem is that roachboy, Mixedmedia et al (besides insulting us) fail to understand our point and quickly reduce our viewpoint to a one-dimensional "they are hate filled raciast vitriolic fascist etc etc blah blah" instead of the basic argument and premise that we have laid out and keep laying out which is the issue of legality. That's it. Plain and simple. Quote:
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Why do you keep saying us? Who are you identifying with? Do you mean you as an American or something else? You say "get rid of this division of me and them" yet you choose to create a division by using "us" when you say "your view of us" then go back to saying "our country". What do you mean by us? Us Mexicans? Us illegals? Us Americans? |
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Um, I'm not sure why you are only referring to Mexico. I think all peoples deserve a shot at living the US dream so long as they follow the rules. ALL of my immigrant friends, Mexicans included (yes it can be done) did it the legal way. Half of my family (the half not born here) did it the legal way even if it did take 15 years. 15 years, but we still followed the rules. Part of the issue is about special treatment. It seems like they, the illegals from south of the border are always crying about wanting special treatment, to cut the line. The rest of us immigrated legally, why can't they? Are you (not you, you but the collective you) saying that they are too stupid or incapable to do it the legal way and need "special help"? If there's something wrong with the law then change the law. |
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I agree, there needs to be drastic changes in immigration law so that people who want to come here can do so easier. A LOT of Americans would disagree with that. But some people don't feel they have the time to wait. Some people are desperate. You don't walk out of your house with just enough possessions to fill a duffel bag and walk to another country or pay your last peso to a guy who stuffs you in the back of a suffocating trailer to drive you there if you are not desperate. Have you ever felt desperate? I have. And at these times you are not thinking, let me walk downtown and stand in line so someone else can, maybe, years from now help me. You take matters into your own hands and help yourself. Yes, taking the "moral view" clouds your thinking when it comes to situations like these. As it should. It is the classic line of demarcation between liberal and conservative thought...ironically. And ignoring the "moral view" can often take us to a place where we find it rational to shoot these people as they are trying to cross the border. |
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What exactly is the "basic argument and premise" that you have laid out? That illegal immigration is wrong? I agree. So what do you propose we do? Or that bilingual education is somehow a special accomodation to recent hispanic immigrants? I disagree...we have a long history of bilingual education. How does the kind of rhetoric i cited above lead to a productive discussion of solutions? |
Isn't there really only one person talking that way?
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I mentioned Gutierrez because I'm trying to prove a point I've already tried to prove before: Yes, it's illegal, but that doesn't automatically make the person less-than human at all. You may not agree with the war (and I don't, neither does 70% of America), but that doesn't make my point any less valid. He may not have died in your name, but he did defending the country that gave him freedom and an opportunity to make something out of himself. He died defending what you and I and everyone else here loves about this country. (by the way, it doesn't make you xenophobic/racist to not agree with this war. I don't understand where that connection came into play) Don't ever disregard morality. If something is illegal, it isn't automatically immoral. The law and morality don't run hand in hand down a dewy meadow. I can understand why you may feel threatened by this one particular law being broken, but what I can't understand is why you refuse to acknowledge the situation and have a little empathy, but rather just dismiss it all and condemn those come here illegally. |
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IMO, these are oversimplistic generalizations with no basis in fact and bring us no closer to solutions. To those who have so vocally expressed such opinions on illegal immigration...I would ask again...what exactly is the "basic argument and premise" that you have laid out? That illegal immigration is wrong? I agree. So what do you propose we do rather than continually bitching about the problem? Or that bilingual education is somehow a new special accomodation to meet the "demands" of recent hispanic immigrants? Thats just bullshit...we have a long history of bilingual education and we have tinkered with the most recent law and programs numerous times in the last 40 years to make the process of learniing english more efficient and effective. Where is the evidence that "they" (recent hispanic immigrants) dont want to learn english? A recent study from the reputable Pew Hispanic Center found this: Latinos, like nearly all Americans, agree that teaching English to the children of immigrant families is an important goal. The vast majority also says that it is important to help students from immigrant families maintain their native tongue.What is wrong with wanting to maintain your culture and language while at the same time assimlating into the broader community? Why is that a detriment to the nation as whole? IMO, we should value our cultural diversity, not repress it. |
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But, I do hear very much the same line of thought...almost verbatim, actualy...from numerous sources, in real life. So, while we may not be seeing the viewpoint being expressed on the boards, I would submit that it's more than likely there. The "one person" may be the only one with the stones to come out with it. And, I would further submit that the "one person" may not be totaly incorrect in his assesment. I do, however, believe that he is laboring under a misconception. It is human nature to fear and lash out at that which we do not understand. It's foreign. It's alien. They must be out to get us, so let us huddle here in our zone of comfort. Take, for example, the "flag waving". I could be wrong, but I see that more as national pride than a political statement. I know that I like to go to La Festa Italiana, Oktobefest, the Greek Festival and numerous other such festivals in the Omaha area that celebrate heritage. In another month...go to a Cinco de Mayo celebration. I guarantee you a good time. And I'm the biggest whitest gringo there is. |
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I don't know enough about government finances to determine if it is disirable (or even possible) for the U.S. to accommodate all who wish to come here. I read and hear conflicting information of the strain on hospitals, schools, and other social costs from immigration (legal and illegal). I suspect that with more government spending in these areas that the costs are much higher than years ago when there was less help for newcomers.
It would be wonderful if the U.S. could open its doors to all but is it wrong to set some limits? In regards to morality and fairness, what does it say to those who follow the rules and wait years to immigrate when we give amnesty to those who cut in line before them? President Bush's and the Senates "path to citizenship" results in the easiest path being to break the law and come here illegally unless you want to wait in line for years. I guess I am torn between the concept of controlling the number of immigrants or letting everyone come who wants to. If we are going to grant amnesty to those who broke our laws then we should also allow those who followed the rules to come here immediately. I also don't think our government or schools should be responsible for teaching classes in all the different languages. Maybe the government can finance some language transition programs or something but putting this burden on the schools seems a bit much. |
Thank you Jorgelito, you expressed very well what I guess I couldn't. :thumbsup:
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I have often wondered what if the next wave of terrorists comes from these illegals. What do these people who are so passionate about letting them in, embracing them and just all happy that they got here say then? "Oh it was just a small group, the vast majority would never hurt anyone." "You're still a racist, Xenophobic KKK, white supremist, neo Nazistic, Facsist and they acted out of your hatred. It was because they were so hated by you that they blew up a mall, passed anthrax, passed tuberculosis, brought in massive amounts of heroin, cocaine, etc. all laced with poisons." "You don't understand, they are people too. They just want a better life... who cares that they broke a law the second they came here? They were treated poorly, discriminated against when they got here so they blew up a plane, a bridge, a hospital.... it's our fault because we didn't try to embrace them enough." Like I said.... not saying any of that will happen.... but what if it does? Will I still be a racist, Xenophobic KKK, white supremist, neo Nazistic, Facsist for having the balls to stick up for my country and demand people come here legally? Or will I be attacked and reminded that some terrorists come here legally, some were born here.... so, no big deal that we allowed in illegals that turned out to be terrorists. |
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really the line is broken?
do you have any relatives or friends who are currently applying for citizenship, green card or any type of visa? Because so far, it doesn't seem broken to me for the vast amount of people I know who travel or visit the US via the tourist or work visas. |
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But putting that aside, I dont advocate an open immigration policy and open borders. i dont believe we can support unlimited immigration. The current policy of allowing about 1 million/yr seems generally reasonable to me - based on quotas from countries of origin (the quotas may need to be changed to be less heavily white European) and factors like family connections, meeting our employment needs, and/or need for personal asylum. The policy is not broken; it just may need tinkering (eg...we have allowed less than 1,000 Iraqis to emmigrate here over 3 years after we raped their country and left the personal security of millions threatened)....along with a much more serious committment to border security (beyond a symbolic fence). And that is an entirely separate issue from what to do about the more than 12 million illegals already here. ...the ones that you (Pan) seem to be bitching about the most, yet you still offer no intelligent thoughts on solutions.` On bilingual education: Quote:
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But that's beside the point. This thread isn't about terrorism, and you know that. But now it's easy to see where your comments are coming from...you seem to rank ALL illegal immigrants the same as those misguided militant extremists from the middle east (and those are the minority). What you've essentially done is lump together everyone into one group, and given them all mean and scary Al-Qaeda faces. Quote:
I must've gone to a pretty sad school. All classes were in English (save for the foreign language classes), but ESL kids would be taken out of class by the resident ESL specialist (or something like that), who would then teach them specially with the smart kids from class. It's a pretty fucked-up system, but I though it was like that everywhere. Also, about the limitation on the number of immigrants, I absolutely agree. This country, as great as it is, can't have open borders for all. But that doesn't mean you can look down your nose at people who do sneak in (and who you've never met) and consider them less than you. |
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Just like I can look up the guy who lives down the street listed as a sex offender, or the guy who signed a document to live in our buildings and said he didn't or wouldn't own a dog then you see him in the elevator with his new jack russell, or even the guy who stands on the corner that deals drugs. Sure I can look at them and think of them as less with good reason. Now if you said, that spanish guy over there, no I couldn't look down on that individual, but the moment he says,"Yeah I don't have papers to be here, I snuck across the border." or "I came here on a travel visa and overstayed." I sure as hell can look down upon him. Am I dehumanizing him? No, I am not tolerating that kind of behavior flouting rules and laws. |
I just want to say, on behalf of the torta i ate for lunch, that i am very thankful that some don't assimilate right away.
Also, on the subject of laws, i don't think that all laws are created equal, and i don't think every law is automatically just, or that all laws ought to be followed. I just got an apartment in minneapolis' mexican enclave. I don't want to speculate as to the legal statuses of my neighbors, but they generally seem like nice folk who generally aren't prone to crime or much vice. There are plenty of businesses in my neighborhood where you would probably need to know spanish to interact effectively with the employees, but damn can you get some great food. |
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The sex offendor comited an act against a human...he raped someone. Furthormore, he chose to do so. He could've lived his life normally and been fine. What's his excuse? "You see, at the time, I was horney, and she was the only one around." ?
The guy living with his dog against the rules of the complex is doing so because he choose to. What's his excuse? "I need my dog to live with me, or else I'll be unhappy." ? The guy who sells drugs on the corner is as low as they come. He's choosing to sell drugs. What's his excuse for doing it? "Oh, well, yeah, I have every opportunity in this country to go to college, get a job, and become a great man, but I'd rather sell just sell some rocks." ? The Mexican you see walking down the street choose to come here. What's his excuse for doing so? "There are no jobs or food in my country to raise my family, so I came here, where there is food and the opportunity for my children to have a future." I'm sorry, but these cases don't match up at all. Oh, and I didn't mean to say that "You can't..." because we're all entitled to our opinions. That's just mines, since I wouldn't just consider someone less than me unless they do something which would truly call for it. Bad choice of words on my part... Quote:
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I think that it's ironic that a lot of (maybe most?) illegal immigrants are self-selecting for the kind of perseverance, risk taking, and work ethic that we think of as being the American character. These are people that are willing to take on huge risks and work multiple low-wage jobs to give their kids an opportunity to succeed. You'd think we'd try to capitalize on that.
I agree that there is some difference between those who "follow the rules" and those who don't, but I don't necessarily think that it is what some are portraying here. Far more illegal immigrants are willing to worker harder for a little opportunity than are looking for a free ride in a rich country. |
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If you want to do like Regan and wave the magic wand and make all the 12 million here legals, by all means fine. Then prevent FURTHER people from just walking over. Because if you aren't going to do that then in a decade or so we'll have another 12 million illegals again. I'll offer my solution, legalize all 12 Million people currently here. Create a moritorium of NO IMMIGRATION for 2-5 years to determine the actual REAL impact the 12 million have on social services and tax base. Allow further immigration based on economic and education stratas allowing ratios of all classes to a FINITE number. Once that number is hit for the year, NO MORE IMMIGRATION for that year. And again, be vigilant of people who overstay tourist/student visas and cross borders illegally. Raid known businesses that tend to hire illegal immigrants. Punish employers who hire illegal workers with hefty fines. |
Well, it's good to see we agree on some things. :)
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I dont want to gve blanket amnesty to all 12 million... I want most to have the opportunity for citizenship...with penalties, recognizing that they came here illegally ahead of others who played by the rules but that they have been contributing to the country and the economy in a postive way.
"Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes," said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary, using the agency's term for illegal immigration.And absolutely, tougher penalties and fines on employers as well as SERIOUS border security to prevent FURTHER people from just walking over. Aside from that,I generally like our current policy of allowing about 1 million/yr - based on quotas from countries of origin and factors like family connections, meeting our employment needs, and/or need for personal asylum. I just dont see what name-calling, misrepresentations and generalizations about the illegal immigration problem accomplishes. |
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Again, if they came here LEGALLY and I was looking down upon them I'm in agreement with you. I don't understand how someone could do that. But to not have disdain for those who came illegally, sorry, not in my backyard, you can open your home to them. |
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And for the record, no, I do not get ANYTHING for free. My parents paid the price to come here illegally (including selling everything they owned...it's not as easy as some seem to think), after they applied legally and nothing was done. They work hard and pay taxes, as they have always done. When they got the opportunity they both got naturalized, and my mother became a US citizen. I paid taxes the moment I started working and I continue to pay taxes. I've not been given ANYTHING for free since the day I was born. You see, we aren't that much different after all. :) |
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My parents didn't have family here. They came here ALONE. In fact they even met here and married after 30 days. They didn't have country to back them up, they didn't have family, or even a home. My father came here with some money in his pocket and brains in his head. My mother came here with some savings and much needed skills in the healthcare industry. See you came here illegally and by luck of the draw the magic wand was waved and your crime was "wiped away." You are fortunate, equally as fortunate as me to have been born in the United States. That is just plain luck. Life is not fair, we don't get to pick where we are born or what family circumstances will surround us. No that's just luck of the draw. No my parents did not come here illegally. Other family members did not do that. They waited YEARS to come here, being petitioned over and over by various family members until they were finally approved. In my opinion if I were to rob someone and take that money and buy lottery tickets and win millions of dollars, ALL that winnings is tainted by the fact that it was born of something illegal. So again, you are fortunate that something happened to make you legitimate and eventually a citizen. That's wonderful, but for those still out there as illegals everything they do in my opinion is tainted by the false premise and pretense they started here with, committing the crime of immigrating here illegally. |
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Sure you work, but you get the opportunity to work without too much difficulty. That's not the case in Mexico. Unemployment is unreal there. Education, something FREE to you, is either incredibly expensive or very low in quality in Mexico. I'll bet you eat at least 3 meals a day. You go to a 9-5 job that you earned by getting a decent education. Put 2 and 2 together here. Quote:
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Pardon me, djtestudo, but I honestly don't see what's the relevance of the situation you're giving me. Could you elaborate a little bit more?
On a side note, I didn't particularly like the analogy you proposed on the second page of this thread. The reason I didn't like it is that right from the get-go, the "bad guy" from the analogy is breaking into the resort, and stealing the food and comfort. So from the very begging, you're already shining a light of immorality onto those, and I don't think this is the case at all. Maybe it's just that we see things differently...We come from different backgrounds, it's to be expected. Here's an analogy I've come up with which I think is more fitting: _____________ You're in a small village, in which a man (lets call him Tom) is responsible for providing the people with cherries. Consequently, he owns may, many cherry trees. He can't possible pick them all. Because of this, whenever anyone comes around and asks for money, Tom instruct them to pick a few cherries, and then he will pay them money. Of course, he make more profit from a basket of cherries than do the people who pick them for him. All Tom asks is that people sign a sheet, so that he has a record of who has worked for him. Tom's a fair employer, and word of him crosses from village to village. Every once in a while, a poor, illiterate straggler from one of the poorer villages, having heard of what Tom does, will come around and pick cherries without signing the sheet (remember he's illiterate), but always gives Tom the full baskets, and Tom pays him respectively. ____________ I know it's not perfect, but I feel it's more accurate than the hotel one. Yes, the straggler IS breaking the rules, but he isn't stealing anything (like illegal immigrants aren't necessarily stealing anything). And if the straggler uses the money to pay for his family to eat, where's the harm? |
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_________ Cuba's a communist state. None of my dad's friends had "jobs". They would all steal from others and shops so they could sell the loot and make money. But not my father...No, he made shoes. He tells me his shoes were famous around the town and a little further. One day the government came and decided they didn't want him making shoes for money any more, so they took all his equipment, his stocks of leather, and everything he had invested in his business. What was he to do? At this point, he was supporting me (3 yrs old), my mother, and TWO daughters (1 and 12 yrs old). He filed the papers for immigration after his cache of money ran out, and so did my grand-aunt, who was here in the States at the time. Family and friends were able to help us with food and shelter while we waited for our vessel. MONTHS went by, we had no money, then the people who were helping us ran into problems of their own. We were literally living in a space not much bigger than 5 x 9 ft. FEET. For all six of us (my father showed me the space last time I visited Cuba. The opportunity presented itself where we were able to escape, and my father took it. If we hadn't left, who knows what would've happened? After all, the only people who could help us at the time fell into their own hardship, so we were on our own, with not so much as a mound of dirt to sleep on. According to my father, concrete is not very comfortable... __________ So what was the solution? Commit to a life of crime to make enough money for food (which is very illegal, and immoral to the core, and harms many innocent people)? Or illegally go to another country where you can give your family future? Yeah, life isn't fair, but that doesn't just mean give up, and damn your family of 5 just because you fall under hard times. Sometimes it isn't as simple as "Just wait YEARS for your chance to come." That's the whole point I've been trying to make... |
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That is why the hotel analogy works; they want the same advantages everyone else get, but don't want to follow the same rules as everyone else to get them. My second analogy goes towards your point about different situations calling for different views on punishment. However, whereas you used several unrelated situations, I gave you two identical crimes separated only by the reasoning behind them (lazy criminal vs. starving family). |
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You seem to have missed an interesting post above by dc_dux. Check out his source, I learned things I didn't know before.
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And as for your most recent analogy, I'll emphasize again that sneaking into this country IS ILLEGAL. Anyone caught doing is is braking the law. I'm not arguing for/against punishment for the act. Nor am I implying that it's any more legal for one situation than it is for another. But I'm not going to sit around and let some people continue regarding illegal immigrants as parasites, or a shit of a people, or selfish entities withing the country, or people who want to change this country to give them better benefits, or any thing like that, because simply, I don't believe this is the case. So to explicitly answer your question, both should be punished equally. I can see where you can use my previous "morality" argument for this case, since using the "morality" argument, you'd expect me to say that the criminal doing it to save his starving family is somewhat justified. This isn't the case though. Mugging someone is directly affecting that person, and hurting that person. My previous "morality" argument only holds water if the person is acting morally (as is usually the case with those who choose to come here illegally). Therefor, if I was mugged by the latter mugger from you analogy, it isn't justified. It's directly stealing, which isn't the case with illegal immigration. Quote:
Children are much more capable of learning languages. They have a propensity for it, in fact. In Matt Ridley's book "Genome", he sites a particularly interesting case where children, when brought up in a situation where many different languages are used frequently by people who don't speak them all (imagine an island with 1000 people, 20% English, 20% Spanish, 20% Arabic, 20% Asian, and 20% African, all interacting together daily...The case was similar), synthesized a more efficient language, composed of all the languages. Each generation created a better and better language. It's truly amazing. For the same reason, it's harder for adults to learn things like languages. The proverbial roots have already been anchored. |
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Furthermore, there are many day laborers and other workers who get paid CASH, who won't go out and get any documentation, they too do not pay payroll taxes, while they may pay sales tax on good purchased, they don't pay property taxes which goes to pay for education in most districts. Quote:
Another article re: stolen SSI numbers used for employment Quote:
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The SS "earning suspense file" is now at nearly $200 billion. From testimony of the SS actuary: Quote:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/...ness/immig.gif I dont condone the act of using fake (not stolen) SS #s, and I blame the employer (who turns a blind eye) as much as the employee...but there is NO denying that illegal aliens contribute $billions to Social Security and Medicare. |
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We agree that the government must come harder on employers, even those politicians who knowingly hire illegals as nannys and maids.
The enforcement record has been dismal. (We might also want to look into all those law-abiding citizens who work as wait staff, street vendors, etc. about reporting their real income.) |
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Superman, um, he is a comic book character, he is FICTIONAL. Red Cross as an non profit organization has people who come to them for assistance. Red Cross Charter: Quote:
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What do I think would happen if the US tried to get all illegals out immediately? Mass riots, infrastructure (shipping, agriculture, etc.) would start to collapse in many places in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona, Texas, Oklahoma, and elsewhere, GSP (gross state product) would drop off considerably in the aforementioned states, this would quickly spread as all the lower 48 are in a symbiotic economic relationship. Because things are so instable now, this could trigger a depression. |
Sorry will, I walk past about 15 homeless people every day. I'm not going to give them anything. NYC has plenty of programs to assist them. The area I live in has plenty of homeless.
Getting badgered 15 times in the morning and 15 times at night just so that I can go to work and come home is not very exciting nor does it inspire me to assist them. Yep, you go to work in your car protected by metal and glass listening to your morning radio show or your MP3s. I'm sorry 16 years of being hit up for money each and every place I go to, sorry. No. No sympathy, no empathy, I've hung out with homeless and street urchins, you know as well as I do that people are there mostly because they want to. When I was in SF in January I was surprised how many homeless there were in Union Square, but then again, people pay them to stay there. this article in 1999 highlights it well: Quote:
I don't believe that rounding up all the illegals would cause such catostrophic events. It's not like it would happen overnight, it would happen over time. Besides, if you look at my previous posts, I have not advocated rounding them up and getting rid of them. I'm advocating STOPPING future millions from coming in. |
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That you could, with a straight face, say that homeless people WANT to be homeless means that not only do you not know the first thing about the homeless, but your ability to read people is pretty messed up. Quote:
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If I give to organizations and assist my local charities like Henry Street Settlement and I don't give to the local fuckard who'd rather stay on the streets because of drug addition and alcholism makes me a bad person? Because that's what your implication is. I don't assume I know anything, in fact, I'm the first to admit I know nothing. I've not made any assumptions in this thread but speak from my FIRST HAND experience however that comes. I'm sorry my friend, it is YOU who is on a soap box. To tie this back into the OP, it's MY parents who immigrated here. It is me who had to sleep on the floor because I had relatives who were trying to move to the US legally. It is ME who has disdain for those people who care not to follow the immigration laws. It is YOU who speaks on a soap box preaching you know how it is because you housed and fed them once in your past. YOU preaching how bad it is in Mexico with high unemployment and poor educational system. YOU preaching how altruistic you are. No my friend, I think you need to see where your feet are standing, it seems to look like a soap box to me. |
There's only one solution and it is not amnesty to the ILLEGALS, again they committed a crime and they are slapping everyone who sacrificed, worked and did what they had to to become citizens.
The solution is for enough people to vote for politicians that will change the immigration laws. Until then, I expect and want a government that will take this seriously, fine those that hire them, deport those they catch and tighten our borders so that it makes it harder to come in ILLEGALLY. We pay BILLIONS of our hard earned tax dollars going to prop up hospitals so that they can help ILLEGALS meanwhile if you are a citizen good luck getting so much as a band aid from a hospital without insurance or in a deathly situation. And what of the people who jam into trucks with very little air circulation? That's ok? That's what you condone when you allow ILLEGAL immigration. But I'm the bad guy, I'm the uninformed, I'm the one that is insensitive, the one ya all like to want to attack.... I think ya all are a bunch of fucking hypocrites. You sit there and shake your head and say "where's you humanity, you self righteous, racist, neo nazistic, KKK, white supremicist xenophobe...... I guess you're right, I am all of the above, but at least I have maintained a solid stance the whole way through instead of backtracking and at first saying... "Illegals are doing what they have to... but I don't condone their behavior.... but I accept them... but what they did is wrong.... but they had no choice...." I guess instead of helping them better their own countries and working on spreading freedom to other countries.... we'd rather just bring everyone here. But they are poor and have no power and voices in their lands.... Bullshit, throughout the history of man it's been the poor, the weak and the underdogs that have had enough that raise up and change their governments. We are not giving them help, we are just absorbing problems and divisiveness instead of working on a lasting solution. But keep letting ILLEGALS pile up into poorly circulated trucks and die of suffocation, load up on rafts and drown when it overturns... and keep believing that I'm the bad guy and you are the true humanitarian because you see these people as people. Good luck with that. |
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I'm not going to sit and parse out your previous statements people can look for themselves for where you stated that you did it before but could no longer, yet now you claim that you are still doing it.
Again, if you are doing it and it helps you sleep better at night to help out your friendly illegal immigrant, great, more power to you. Continue to give his/her friends reasons to come here since there are so many other people here willing to open their homes and businesses to them. If there are more people like you housing illegal aliens, IMO you are aiding and abetting a criminal. I would hope that if they toughen the laws for employers that they also toughen laws for people who aid and abet illegals from securing documents to housing and feeding them if they are not registered non profit organizations. You may say that it's about altruism and sympathy for those less fortunate. Great. Wonderful for you. If that's what gets you through the night if what you've listed in your past is really your past, wonderful if that's how you need to make amends to the world great. However, I'm not interested in it and I'm not interested in comforting someone who came over here illegally. In fact, I'd be happy to help them arrange a free trip back to their homeland if they are homesick. |
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I never would provide anyone with illegal documents or anything of the sort. As for the non-profit thing, you don't need to be a non-profit organization to allow someone to sleep at your house and eat your food. Aiding and abetting a criminal? Not really. That'd be like blaming someone for giving a homeless guy who happens to have broken the law a dollar. Also, I support non-violent civil disobedience in order to bring about positive political change. Were you serious when you said that you think homeless people want to be homeless? |
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I thought that you volunteered, in the soup kitchen, helping to feed the homeless. You would know that...not? |
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end threadjack. |
will yes, I am serious. there are homeless people out there who would rather be homeless. did you not read the NYtime article I posted?
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If you believe what you are doing is great. Wonderful! Keep doing it. Just don't ask me for help for it because I don't choose that lifestyle for myself. My parents came here to give me a better life than they had and persue the "American Dream." No where have I read nor seen anything that states my part of the American dream is to hold out my hand and help someone else who came here illegally. |
On my last dramatic note on this thread, I'd just like to state that the blackened cynic in me who thinks big, scary thoughts believes that mankind sealed its fate when it developed concepts like religion and national borders in order to separate and keep us apart. This is where my thinking on this issue stems from. I'm not of the mind that everyone on this thread taking a stand against illegal immigration is a racist or a xenophobe. (Although, I am hedging my bets with some.) I'm just a person with a very low tolerance for "us and them" thinking. I think it's a bad habit that has led to some of the worst atrocities ever committed by man. Granted, this time and place and this discussion may not be ideal for exercising these reactions, these tendencies I have, to keep people identifying positively with each other. Having compassion and understanding for each other. Then again, it may be. I don't know.
Just wanted to say all that... John Lennon also has a song, and you might of heard it before, Pan, that goes... Quote:
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i looked in one more time---positions have differentiated somewhat, and i suppose that is a good thing in itself--i dont agree with cyn, for example, but i wouldn't argue against him in the same way that i was arguing against the main positions that obtained in here earlier. maybe in another thread a different discussion will be possible.
i wanted to make one thing clear in this context: pan: if your last two or three posts have been referencing what i have put in this thread, i would suggest that you re-read what i wrote with a more level head than you appear to have---i made it quite clear--as clear as i could manage--that the problem i have with your posts in particular follows from the LOGIC THAT YOU HAVE CHOSEN TO ADOPT--i do not impute any position to you as a human being--the false, misleading, unsubstanitated and unsubstantiatable categories that you use, the qualities that you impute to this fiction "ILLEGAL immigrant" that you substitute for undocumented workers, or migrant workers, and the way you combine these categories and qualities--THOSE ELEMENTS are what lead you straight into neofascist territory. if i thought you WERE a neofascist, i wouldn't waste my time interacting with you at all. trust me on this one. your posts demonstrate the argument that i was making that the POLITICAL FRAMEWORK itself is dangerous, that it can lead people who in other areas are NOT likely to espouse front national-style positions straight into that sort of territory. and that is not a good place. that's all i have to say. i am not going to return to this corpse of a thread. |
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The rest of your latest comments are a bit too emotional for any futher response. The BEST solution I have seen is the new bi-partisan "Security Through Regularized Immigration and a Vibrant Economy (STRIVE) Act" introduced in the House last month (better than last year's bills). It provides for comprehensive border security, more funding and support for state/local law enforcement across the country to get the real criminals (gang members, drug dealers, money launderers...) among the illegals, a new employment verification program, guest worker program for jobs,primarily agricultural (with the jobs first offered to citizens but the workforce needs not met)... and most of all.. A two-step process towards EARNED LEGALIZATION FOR QUALIFIED, HARDWORKING INDIVIDUALS: THe first step is to request Conditional Nonimmigrant Status that would last for 6 years, while the person would go to the "back of the line" for permanent status. :This is in line with what a majortiy of Americans want. More from the Republican co-sponsor from the border state of Ariz (link) |
I don't think this thread can go any further either. At this point, we're delving into irreconcilable fundamental differences in individual personalities. If we continue now, it will just become a flame war. In the end of the day, everyone's points have been laid down, and it's up to who ever's reading to make up their mind on the issue.
Much like religion, this isn't the kind of topic which will foster anything except angst for the other side, and if internet debates have taught us anything, it's that most people already have their views locked into them, and will defend them vehemently. Anyways...yeah...Gingrich sucks. :) |
I'm so glad you found your way here to TFP, arch. You done good. :wave:
And I don't say that just because I happen to agree with you, lol. |
We can still STRIVE for better :)
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Are you more interested in perusing Gingrch or bilingual education? |
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Oh, I don't mean anyone in particular. It's just that, really, what more can be said? At this point, it's our core values which are on the table. I've been somewhat offended by some posts, and I'm sure our opponents have been offended by our apparent justification for breaking this law. There's nothing I, or Willravel, or dc_dux, or mixedmedia, ubertuber, or anyone else with our sentiments can do to make Cynthetiq, pan6467, djtestudo, or people of their ilk understand our stance. Like-wise, they can't make us understand their stances, when our core values are so fundamentally incompatible. If the debate hasn't been resolved, then, by all means, let's continues, but, as I said above, I don't know if anything productive will come of it (but then again, what do I know? I'm new here...). Quote:
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Good post, but like I said, until the laws change, illegals are still illegals. And people seem to miss the point where I stated illegals having to get into trucks with little or no ventilation, paying people to bring them and not knowing if they will truly make it.... That's really humane and supporting ILLEGALS supports that humane life and the parasites that feast off the people that feel they have no choice but to pay that price. ILLEGAL = ILLEGAL..... change the laws and then see who is still against immigration before you wrongly accuse people of racism, neo-nazistic, KKK, white supremicist behaviors or beliefs. As for Lennon.... good point, Ms. Mixed.... But Lennon and Jesus also taught and lived that you shouldn't break laws, you should protest and change laws before you break them. Protest the laws, change the laws but don't break the laws or condone or turn your back on those breaking them. (I'm sure someone will still bring into the fold petty traffic laws.... yes speeding through a city or school zone should be punished doing 70 in a 65 on the highway is called survival in some cases and comparing it to illegal immigration is idiotic.) PS: RB my previous post was not addressed to you, it was addressed to the attacks in general.... if you read over the entire thread, those names and labels were tossed around quite liberally. |
Awww, man...Just when I though this thread had died a peaceful death...:rolleyes:
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From this I see two answers, yes or no. Yes, you would still have a problem with it, would let us examine why specifically you are against illegal immigrants beyond the simple "it's illegal" argument, which doesn't tell us much about your reasoning. No, you wouldn't have a problem, might make your position a lot weaker. I'm just curious. Since you and I get a long, but disagree on this issue, I see an opportunity for common ground. |
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Excuse me??????? I think I have the right to answer something addressed to me without getting this response. Quote:
NO Will, I have stated all along.... change the laws and I have no problem. Believe it or not.... Read my last few threads..... I would rather change the laws than to have people riding in trucks with no ventilation. Sometimes one must take their stance to an extreme they may not even agree with in order to be heard and to reach true compromise. Ask yourself and please feel free to point it out and call me on it..... Did I attack anyone? Did I call anyone names or reply with negative smilies? Now is the reverse true? Were people labelling me, calling me names, (either outright or thinly disguised?) One cannot have true discussion if the responses are not of equal respect. |
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No hard feelings, Pan? |
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By the way, how do you feel about the STRIVE Act dc_dux showed us earlier? |
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I, personally, see bilingual education as a step in the right direction. It'd be nice if Canada, the US and Mexico could be chummy like the EU some day. I think all three nations could benefit greatly from it, and it would help to stabilize the economy of Central America. Newt, on the other hand, is an antique. He's leftover casserole from the 90s, no longer decent enough to stomach. It wouldn't be a waste to simple toss his impotent opinions out with the trash. I'll bet he smells like cheap single malt and cheese. |
Hey Pan:
I've got a question for you - something I'm a little fuzzy on that you've hinted at in your posts. Is it your contention that illegal immigrants receive more social benefits (medical care, etc.) than poor citizens? |
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Fatality and crime rates tripling???? I'm sorry did you just pull that number outta your ass? Because that also implies that crime rates would DECREASE here if Illegals did not exist within our borders. And again, why is it my problem? There are enough problems here WITHIN America to fix before I worry about somewhere else. There are enough poor Americans that need our help before helping someone who is here illegally, or even back at their homeland before they come here. Have you seen the effect of NAFTA on industries? I've seen it first hand. I've seen 3rd and 4th generation garment manufacturer owners, close their business because it competed against cheaper labor pools. People who employed 150-300 people having to either invest in moving their company into NAFTA zones outside of the US borders. Some had to uproot or split the family to live outside of US borders. Into countries and areas that have high crime rates. Vibrant sections of the garment industry here in NYC completely wiped out. Even the Chinese sweatshops were impacted because they had a symbiotic relationship with the garment manufacturers. It used to be that if you walked around the garment district you'd see it bustling with workers, fabrics, and fashion. It hasn't been that way since the mid to late 90s. uber, I'm of the belief that Illegals get more benefits than poor americans because they have learned how to exploit the system. Maybe it's media driven but I have heard of people who come here from Santo Domingo just to get welfare checks, figure out some exploit within the system and collect monies even though they have returned back to Santo Domingo. As far as healthcare goes, again, it's what I hear from the media, illegals get healthcare coverage that uninsured americans do not. |
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I agree with you that we should also absolutely prosecute, to the full extent of the law, those who engage in transporting persons across the border for profit. . Quote:
I want illegal immigration stopped as much as you, but for those already here and contributing in a positve way, I am just not as rigid as you in my interpretation of justice. I believe in tempering justice with fairness and compassion for those who are not hardened criminals. That is the American way! |
I also fail to see how the legal or illegal status of immigrants, specifically from mexico, will do jack shit about the increase in spanish-speaking united states citizens / dwellers, the parading of other cultures flags or celebrations, the change of "traditional" american culture. certainly at present, the two issues are linked. however, if all the laws were changed so that will and pan could go skipping down the street singing duets of mixed english/spanish lyrics, all the issues with people speaking spanish (or whatever other language) still remain.
secondly, i'm not going to exhaustively review and cite from the thread, but come on pan, lets not play the 'i'm so innocent, where is all this coming from?' card here bro. you made some pretty strong statements, amongst them the shoot on site statement, and some people said "hmmm...that certainly sounds xenophobic to me and might border on some racism" and all of a sudden you're pulling this big-eyed "all you people calling me a xenophobic nazi pigfucking KKK loving babyeating dragon!!" shit so people would back down from some of the claims / questions. no one here called you explicitly racist, but it was either stated or implied that you might have some xenophobic tendencies on this one. maybe no one else will, but i'll stand by that part of the claim. and its not just you, as roach pointed out, its the position and the logic behind it. as far as the side discussion with cyn and will, i'll save the homeless for another thread, but as far as legal immigrants looking down on illegal immigrants, i would tend to think that would also be something that would need to be evaluated on individual merit, no? i mean, i can understand where you're coming from cyn, but shit it seems like you've just got a dried up compassion well. on some of these issues it seems you seem to implicitly take the position that your shit doesn't stink. i know you state that you know it does, but i think you're assuming that all people who illegally have migrated here have been in the same situation that your family was; both in terms of living situation as well as proximity to the states or other large industrialized nation. am i missing something? that just seems rather 1-dimensional on these types of political discussions. |
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The alternative is that many of the families make it to the US and get work. Once they have work, they have some security. They're not likely to need to steal to eat if they can afford food. They also send a little home, which keeps their family in Mexico more safe and less likely to need to turn to crime. Quote:
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I guess when you stand on line for something and multiple people cut in front of you, it's fine for you. They shouldn't have to wait, they don't need to wait, it's fair for you to have prepared, gotten there early to secure your place in line you abided by the rules established and followed them and they didn't. It doesn't upset you in the least? I cannot speak for anyone else and how they feel about their family emigrating to the US. I know people who were refugees, people who sought political asylum, poor, rich, connected, but they all followed the processes established to secure being here. Now the implication that "my shit don't stink" is unjustified. The difference is that I accept responsibility for the indiscretions and transgressions commited that are either against another person, government, animal, thing. I do not excuse the idea that "because they have it hard" or any other kind of mitigating excuse. You may call it a dried up compassion well, but I believe I have enough compassion without having to be either a person who tramples over everyone else or gets trampled over. I am a firm believer of don't do the crime if you can't do the time. If you do something right or wrong, be ready for the consequences good or bad that come from that action. |
cyn,
i thought about the shit not stinking analogy when i posted it; i agree it doesn't express exactly what i want to say, but i'm having trouble putting the thoughts into words. perhaps it rolled up in the waiting in line analogy; as i said before, it seems to me that when you lump all illegals into a category and assign them a blanket sentence, it starts to head in that direction of unsmelly shit to me. if i was waiting in line at the bank, and someone just like me cut in, yeah, i'd be pissed. but what if they're elderly, or if they don't look well, or if they have kids with them, or if (somehow i know) that they are more desparate than i? i can wait a bit because i've got an hour lunch break, and a few minutes won't kill me. i'm not trying to trivialize your family's previous predictaments...how could i? i don't know their situations...but in answer to the question, as i said: i can't say across the boards that illegal immigrants are always just a bunch of immoral rule breakers fuckers. sometimes rules are broken, but as has been pointed out that's a different consideration from fundamental morality, in my opinion. incidentally, i agree that you shouldn't do the crime if you can't do the time, but that doesn't mean i look down on someone who does the crime necessarily. it also means i don't look down on them if they do the crime and don't get caught. in situations like illegal immigration, if they are a good person, etc, i tend to think more along the lines of "hats off the them." as has been previously stated, its not like they're taking the easy way out. they're taking on a lot of risk and danger to try to make things better for themselves and their loved ones. not always, but in a lot of cases. |
In answer to some's questions....
I did say shoot on sight..... but would you rather be shot and killed on sight or die of suffocation in a truck? No, not everyone called or implied names. Pigglet, where do I mention anything about LEGAL immigrants or LEGAL immigration needing to be cut? If I were xenophobic as you stated here: Quote:
As for the cost of ILLEGALS there are several websites that discuss them and break them down. This website is straight 1996 money and they try to show the cost in 2003 dollars: http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServe...suecentersf134 Here's one in favor of a guest worker program that talks about the environmental impact: http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServe...suecentersf134 Here's a CNN report on the cost of ILLEGALS to America: (A very good report and informative): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY6t2ckpb5g There are plenty more just do a Yahoo search on the cost of iilegal immigration and you'll see and can do your own research. |
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The section under "Encouraging aliens to depart voluntarily" may be a way to reduce the number of illegals without having to resort to legal proceedings. Perhaps giving illegals 60 days or so to leave voluntarily before being charged with a crime could be the way for most to depart. Also those who do so could possibly be allowed to get in line to immigrate legally without having their past illegal status held against them. Perhaps most deportation proceedings could be avoided this way. |
pan,
i don't want to get sidetracked too much on this, as will stated i have a lot of respect for you and i know you're a good guy, so to speak. but what about the posts concerning flying a blahblah flag and sitting on an american one? or not assimilating into our culture, but forcing us to accomodate them? i guess i just see america as a place where you don't have to assimilate. that's your right. you can speak in any language you want to. shit, make one up. that's your right as well. if you want to form an enclave and sit around and speak in piglatin and use clothing made of american flag, or toilet paper with american flags printed on it; while i may not like it or want to be part of it, you can do it. that's why america is so great. or at least my concept of america. that's the part where i see the xenophobia. the part, strictly separated, about illegal immigrants, i see as just being overly simplified. yes, they're breaking the law. but i just can't bring myself to blame every single one of them, on that basis alone. you're right, they are definitely involved in illegal conduct, which is why i, back in post blabidyblahblah, brought up traffic violations. its not just breaking the law that's pissing you off, it some violation of the concept of "america" and laws that preserve "america." i mean, fuck look at your sig: imagine all the people living in peace. love is the answer. to extend love towards these people means seeing them as humans with real life situations. if they're caught, sure send 'em back if you want to. but that doesn't mean i have to be happy about it, or that i think that our current laws reflect reality. |
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I have personally seen ILLEGALS do that (as well as legals). Is it all of them? No. I do believe that you come into this country you need to assimilate with our society not expect us to assimilate to you. I am not saying you need to give up your beliefs and become "American". I am simply statiing you do not come into my house and make demands from me. I will respect you and help you but if you come in making demands that I change my house to suit your needs.... my respect ends and my bitterness and anger will get the best of me. And I will firmly admit I am prejudiced against the ILLEGALS and legals that come demanding we change our language, we cater to them and so on. But it is a vast majority ILLEGAL that do this (by vast majority I mean of the immigrants demanding we change to suit them... not the vast majority of ILLEGALS). You can love someone, but if they slap you in the face (which I consider ILLEGAL immigration to be) and continue to slap you, you turn the cheek so many times and then you just turn your back on the person doing the slapping and show them the respect they are showing you... so that they may learn and realize they made their own bed. If you have a child or sibling and they keep stealing your property and making demands on you, no matter how much you love them you eventually will say enough and do some tough love until they learn respect. Has nothing to do with sex, color, religion, ethnicity, etc.... I still have issues with how I am the bad guy for stating my beliefs and offering to change with the laws.... while others continue to talk about how they are humans but by condoning the ILLEGAL you condone the trucks with poor ventilation, the shit waged job with substandard working conditions, the rafts that turn over and people drowning. By sheer association you say you approve of the above, by not demanding change, by not making it harder for them to come here until laws change, by allowing the employers to hire these workers. I'm sorry, I see the end result of ILLEGAL immigration as the above and it doesn't seem very humane or loving to me. |
pan,
you're not a bad guy, but you may have some xenophobic tendencies on this issue. that's my opinion, i could be wrong. i've been wrong before, i'll be wrong again. the thing is, i (and i think many others) would agree that the situation sucks for the people who fall prey to coyotes pulling people across the border. they're fuckers! plain and simple. fuck them. i don't think anyone on the "other side" of this thread would say that's ok. it is predictable, but not ok. but that doesn't mean, in my opinion, you can say "fuck all illegals." they're not all like that. so why not just say fuck people who want others to cater to them constantly, and who are inflexible themselves? legal, illegal, american by birth, whatever. its basically the same as silver spoon syndrome. as usual, i think we agree on the basics of this situation; we just disagree on the application thereof. |
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I agree that there is something to being accommodating, but also there has to be a line where it stops. Should there always be mitigating circumstances that makes that situation okay? If there are, then enact laws that address that. Examples of this have been established like political and refugee asylum. But again, there are finite numbers of applicants. Quote:
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Check this out for more info (pdf from oxfam). |
[QUOTE=willravel]Do you understand the concept of civil disobedience? You break the law peacefully in order to bring about change. That means no one who acts in civil disobedience is under he umbrella of the law. You're just splitting hairs because this is a law you seem to like. If it were a sit in to end segregation, I'm sure you'd be behind it. [quote]
Funny because I don't think we'd sit on the same side of that either. See, I don't agree that Program housing on campuses for self segregation is a good thing. I don't think that colleges should have seperate graduation ceremonies in spanish, german, tagalog, chinese. I'm sure you recall this happening in the early 90s: Quote:
So what about the Chinese you are not speaking up for them. If you are saying that it's good for Mexicans, then it's good for Chinese, Somalians, Nigerians, Ethopians, et. al. I'm sorry that there isn't enough for everyone, that is just a fact. Quote:
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You toss in terrorism???? Nowhere in ANTHING I've posted or linked to mentions terrorism. Yet the mention of Philippines and suddenly terrorism and al Qaeda come into play? If you searched history you'd find that Islam in the Philippines predates al Qaeda. You'd also should know that "Filipino Muslims form 5% of the country's population, while the rest of the general population are mostly Roman Catholic (84%) and Protestant (8%)." And the Filipino Muslims only occupy the areas closest to Indonesia/Malaysia which are Islamic nationstates. Manila where the Office of Overseas Workers is located, is Roman Catholic. But I guess, you are allowed to generalize and make blanket statements and others not. |
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True? Then there were no blanket statements. I was comparing the security concerns from each place, which is basically the entire reason for closed borders. |
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I would describe it as alternative sentencing and far more pratical, reasonable, fair and less expensive than rounding up and deporting millions. |
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According to the DHS, there are approximately 3 million people from 2004-2006 beg to differ that they benefitted from the current system. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...hetiq/imig.jpg Quote:
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edit: I did just found this article from the NY Times Quote:
Hmmm, seems to me that maybe Mexicans have lots more to learn that just a civics lesson of how to set up expatriated workers, but also that education is an important factor in increasing wages. |
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The last time we granted amnesty there were 2 or 3 million illegals, this time there are 12 to 15 million. If the percentages hold true the next time there could be 50 million or more. Is there any number that we should allow before trying to control it? About 10 percent of the Mexican population currently resides in the U.S. illegally and with the population growing rapidly and conditions in Mexico so bad, the incentive to come here will only increase. Maybe we can handle them all but I suspect there will be problems with so many. |
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And even with your hypothetical case of the Mexican, you don't explain why the individual who chooses to commit the crime and enter illegally should gain the benefits of his crime over someone who has respect for the country he wants to live and fights through the burdensome process of legal immigration. |
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