Who is worse; George Bush or Hugo Chavez? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

texranger17 · 03-12-2007, 08:13 PM

I say Chavez. Venezuela is going into the same direction as Cuba. Not only that, but he always tells off other presidents when he is the one that needs to work for his people.

cyrnel · 03-12-2007, 08:29 PM

Well, this is in the general section, so I'm going to say Bush. Hugo has that Latin thing going for him. Pure hotness.

Astrocloud · 03-12-2007, 08:46 PM

Worse to whom? Americans?

Seaver · 03-12-2007, 11:22 PM

Tilted Politics is that way ======>

Infinite_Loser · 03-12-2007, 11:47 PM

It depends on who you ask. If you ask most of the non-US world who is worse, they'd say Bush. Of course, most Americans would probably agree with them...

Carno · 03-13-2007, 12:07 AM

I doubt that most Americans would say that Bush is worse than Chavez. I highly doubt it.

Hell, I suspect most Americans don't know even know who Hugo Chavez is, much less know anything about him.

Jinn · 03-13-2007, 12:35 AM

yep, didnt have a clue.. had to look it up

and since this isnt politics, bush. i dont know anything about hugo, so he can't be worse than the person I do know about.

Etarip · 03-13-2007, 01:30 AM

hmmm,
Hugo: Practically a dictatorship now, may be screwing up his own country, the poor still love him last I heard,

Bush: Still a democracy, screwing up other countries, ten's of thousands dead, approval rating in the thirties.

Ehhh, I'm leaning towards bush on this one.

Ample · 03-13-2007, 05:05 AM

I think they are both pretty evil.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugo and the UN

The devil came right here and it still smells of sulfur today

But Hugo is a better zinger

The_Jazz · 03-13-2007, 05:29 AM

Moved thread to Tilted Politics

Texranger17 - I think that you need define your terms a little better. Chavez is pretty popular in Venezuela which leads me to believe that he's doing something right on his own domestic stage. He's certainly stepped to the forefront of Third World Leaders.

Why do you think he's turning his country into another Cuba? Why is that necessarily bad for the US?

duck0987 · 03-16-2007, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ample

I think they are both pretty evil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugo and the UN
The devil came right here and it still smells of sulfur today

But Hugo is a better zinger

I'm not sure on the evil issue, but Hugo is definitely more literate than Bush, since he has mastered the art of metaphor, while bush is still working on a speech that would be acceptable for a child to pass the 5th grade according to the standards put forth in no child left behind.

DaveOrion · 03-16-2007, 11:58 PM

Few men wont be corrupted, given enough power. While Bush does seem to be a megalomaniac bent on world domination, I'm sure Chavez would be too, given the opportunity. Chavez does seem to have a greater intellectual capacity, given the Bush standard of "Run Spot Run, See Spot Run" as a war cry. Sorry for the sarcasm, I cant stand Bush so he gets my vote for the Worst Person in the World!

Randerolf · 03-17-2007, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ample

I think they are both pretty evil.

But Hugo is a better zinger

I don't care for Chavez's political views, but his put-downs are beautiful.

Bush = "King of Vacations." Hilarious!

roachboy · 03-17-2007, 06:56 AM

i dont understand what this thread is about.
i dont understand what we are being asked.

The_Dunedan · 03-17-2007, 07:58 AM

I remember a piece of Libertarian alternative-history fiction in which Fidel Castro became a professional baseball player. I can never hear/read one of Hugo's speeches without thinking that, in such a "best of all possible" world, Chavez would have been a -brilliant- screenwriter or stand-up comedian. I loathe his politics, but damn does that man ever have a flair for rhetoric.

archetypal fool · 03-25-2007, 10:12 AM

I sympathize with Chavez, to some remote extent, since he is trying to fix a Latin American country (most of which are always in the grips of dictators/depressions/economics shit-holes). A lot of damage has been done by colonization, and because of that, there are very wide gaps between the rich and poor (though not a deep at the US, but the poor are much poorer). To help the situation, Chavez tilts a little towards communism, taking land from the high and middle class people (of which a considerable number took the land from the natives anyways) and gives it to the poor, which are usually native. This is what Castro did, and well, we all know how that turned out, but there's no rule that says it has to end up the same way, since a lot of shit was fanned Cuba's way by the US, for example the embargo which continues today, leading to enormous economic lose. You can't blame Chavez for trying, and for trying to represent the poor of his country.

Bush, on the other hand, seems to have a personal vendetta against the Constitution and civil rights, as well as a more-than-obvious lack of respect and understanding of foreign, sovereign states.

And I'll bet my life savings, down to the last dollar, that Chavez could beat Bush in a debate about anything, even if he were forced to speak English (which he actually can...Does Bush speak a second language?).

I'll bet he could even trounce Bush in basketball and at playing the guitar, for what it's worth.

Willravel · 03-25-2007, 10:41 AM

We'll have to see how the socializing/nationalizing will effect Venezuela's economy and society, and if Chavez can stop himself from abusing the authority he's giving himself in the 18 month rule. The ability to rewrite organic law is scary, and I don't know if I trust anyone with that power. The thing is if this hurts Chevron Exxon and BP, it can't be all bad.

I think everyone knows how I feel about Bush, so I'd say that Bush is worse and has done a lot more harm to the planet than Chavez ever could.

CptAJ · 03-25-2007, 01:27 PM

Wow, nice to see some of you actually take the time to read about latin american politics instead of eating up all the bullshit the U.S. government tries to feed the world.

Before I go into this here post let me tell you, I live in Venezuela. I was born here and I love this awesome piece of land. I'm also technically part of the opposition to Chavez's government. As a law school student I don't think he should have been a legal candidate considering he attempted a military coup a few decades ago. He was given full pardon (the actual legal figure is better than a pardon since it erases your criminal record entirely) and as such he was allowed to run as a candidate. I consider that a flaw in the previous constitution and this one. He's also lacking as a diplomat but thats neither here nor there at this point since he mainly attacks the U.S., which in my opinion and for a wide range of reasons deserve to be opposed in a political standpoint. That said, let me clarify a few misconceptions about Chavez:

First of all, he's not "taking land" from anyone. That is a complete lie. Latin America has a long standing problem with latifundia (look it up in wikipedia). He's merely enforcing the laws created to solve this problem of several families having ridiculously vast amounts of idle territory in their property, a heritage of previous dictatorships and colonial rule.

Second, Venezuela is FAR from being Cuba. Civil liberties are upheld here, there is free trade and capitalism. Chavez merely leans to the socialist side in order to solve immediate social problems. His revolution is a peaceful and legal one, unlike Fidel's. Not to mention that it is far more elaborate and planned out. He is loved by the people and there is no denying that fact. If thats not a testament to a good job so far as a leader, I don't know what is.

Now lets look a the international stage. Chavez has made great relations with many countries during his time in office. The only government he doesn't get along with is the U.S. And with good reason. What would you do if the world's leading superpower arbitrarily deemed you a menace to the world? What would you do if said government repeatedly lied about your actions and your rights as a legitimate government? For all of Chavez's comments against the U.S., they pale in comparison to the damage the Bush administration's defamation campaign against my country has caused. Case in point, Bush claims Venezuela to be a destabilizing force in the south when all the Chavez administration has done is help out in the region. Chavez donates large portions of our oil wealth to help in other countries, he's promoting helpful socialist programmes in the region and he's trying to unify the latin american culture much like it was done in the european union. Of course, having a second powerful, unified, continental front to compete against in the world could be considered destabilizing to U.S. hegemony. Then so be it, I say.

Of course, he's not a perfect president either. The whole matter with his legislative powers is troublesome (specially to someone studying law), but keep in mind that his party already has absolute majority in the National Assembly (congress and whatnot), so this only expedites the inevitable Chavist legislation. He has one aim with the whole thing and there is no confusion about it. He wants to extend the legal opportunity of reelection and the presidential term. There has never been any doubt about this and he's never lead anyone to think otherwise. From his first year in office one of his slogans has been "to 2021", which is his clearly stated intended date of retiring from presidential power.

What can I say? The people support him in this and he's never lied to them. I'm personally against it but thats democracy at its finest for you. He's done a decent job so far (commendable in comparison to some of our previous presidents, in fact). One can only hope he'll keep his revolution in the right track...

PS: To get back to the main topic though. I clearly think Bush is far worse.

archetypal fool · 03-25-2007, 04:41 PM

CptAJ, thanks a lot for that great reply. I hadn't heard from someone actually living in Venezuela. You see, all I used to have to go with was all the bullshit the US news stations say about Chavez ("He called our president the devil! He's a menace!) and the quasi-bullshit my Cuban family has to say about him (I'm Cuban). I say that because Cubans see or hear of Chavez reappropriating land and consider him to be like Castro, since that's one of the very first things he did when he seized control. So Cubans naturally fear Chavez, to some extent, and some see him as nothing more than a regular ol' communist, which obviously isn't the case.

And...um...yeah...Bush is an inarticulate boob.

pai mei · 06-07-2007, 01:23 PM

About the closed tv station
One thing is freedom of speech, I like that, another thing is spreading lies and helping a coup.

Quote:

By Bart Jones
The Los Angeles Times
May 30, 2005

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez's refusal to renew the license of Radio Caracas Television might seem to justify fears that Chavez is crushing free speech and eliminating any voices critical of him.

Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the Committee to Protect Journalists and members of the European Parliament, the U.S. Senate and even Chile's Congress have denounced the closure of RCTV, Venezuela's oldest private television network. Chavez's detractors got more ammunition Tuesday when the president included another opposition network, Globovision, among the "enemies of the homeland."

But the case of RCTV — like most things involving Chavez — has been caught up in a web of misinformation. While one side of the story is getting headlines around the world, the other is barely heard.

The demise of RCTV is indeed a sad event in some ways for Venezuelans. Founded in 1953, it was an institution in the country, having produced the long-running political satire program "Radio Rochela" and the blisteringly realistic nighttime soap opera "Por Estas Calles." It was RCTV that broadcast the first live-from-satellite images in Venezuela when it showed Neil Armstrong walking on the moon in 1969.

But after Chavez was elected president in 1998, RCTV shifted to another endeavor: ousting a democratically elected leader from office. Controlled by members of the country's fabulously wealthy oligarchy including RCTV chief Marcel Granier, it saw Chavez and his "Bolivarian Revolution" on behalf of Venezuela's majority poor as a threat.

RCTV's most infamous effort to topple Chavez came during the April 11, 2002, coup attempt against him. For two days before the putsch, RCTV preempted regular programming and ran wall-to-wall coverage of a general strike aimed at ousting Chavez. A stream of commentators spewed nonstop vitriolic attacks against him — while permitting no response from the government.

Then RCTV ran nonstop ads encouraging people to attend a march on April 11 aimed at toppling Chavez and broadcast blanket coverage of the event. When the march ended in violence, RCTV and Globovision ran manipulated video blaming Chavez supporters for scores of deaths and injuries.

After military rebels overthrew Chavez and he disappeared from public view for two days, RCTV's biased coverage edged fully into sedition. Thousands of Chavez supporters took to the streets to demand his return, but none of that appeared on RCTV or other television stations. RCTV News Director Andres Izarra later testified at National Assembly hearings on the coup attempt that he received an order from superiors at the station: "Zero pro-Chavez, nothing related to Chavez or his supporters…. The idea was to create a climate of transition and to start to promote the dawn of a new country." While the streets of Caracas burned with rage, RCTV ran cartoons, soap operas and old movies such as "Pretty Woman." On April 13, 2002, Granier and other media moguls met in the Miraflores palace to pledge support to the country's coup-installed dictator, Pedro Carmona, who had eliminated the Supreme Court, the National Assembly and the Constitution.

Would a network that aided and abetted a coup against the government be allowed to operate in the United States? The U.S. government probably would have shut down RCTV within five minutes after a failed coup attempt — and thrown its owners in jail. Chavez's government allowed it to continue operating for five years, and then declined to renew its 20-year license to use the public airwaves. It can still broadcast on cable or via satellite dish.

Granier and others should not be seen as free-speech martyrs. Radio, TV and newspapers remain uncensored, unfettered and unthreatened by the government. Most Venezuelan media are still controlled by the old oligarchy and are staunchly anti-Chavez.

If Granier had not decided to try to oust the country's president, Venezuelans might still be able to look forward to more broadcasts of "Radio Rochela."

THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED

Stare At The Sun · 06-13-2007, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texranger17

I say Chavez. Venezuela is going into the same direction as Cuba. Not only that, but he always tells off other presidents when he is the one that needs to work for his people.

Socialism and communism are massive threats to both the countries they exist in and the world at large. Chavez hand down is the bigger threat.

tadger · 06-13-2007, 03:29 PM

Bush is worse. He's a twat on the grandest scale. WMD in Iraq? Still searching. Building a cruise missile base in Poland will ensure world peace? Yeah, and my dick is 24" long (60cm for you Europeans). Israel are a poor oppressed nation and need all the international help they can get? Biggest perpetrators of genocide in the history of man (read your bible - it's all in there).

The sooner someone does a JFK on him, the safer the world will be. Oh, and Putin too. He needs a slap as well, the Ruski fuckbreath.

Plan9 · 06-14-2007, 08:24 AM

I voted for Alice Cooper.

03-12-2007, 08:13 PM	#1 (permalink)
texranger17 Upright	Who is worse; George Bush or Hugo Chavez? I say Chavez. Venezuela is going into the same direction as Cuba. Not only that, but he always tells off other presidents when he is the one that needs to work for his people. __________________ <!-- no plugging -->

03-12-2007, 08:29 PM	#2 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	Well, this is in the general section, so I'm going to say Bush. Hugo has that Latin thing going for him. Pure hotness. __________________ There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

03-12-2007, 11:22 PM	#4 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	Tilted Politics is that way ======> __________________ "Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

03-12-2007, 11:47 PM	#5 (permalink)
Infinite_Loser Junkie Location: Lake Mary, FL	It depends on who you ask. If you ask most of the non-US world who is worse, they'd say Bush. Of course, most Americans would probably agree with them... __________________ I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

03-13-2007, 12:35 AM	#7 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	yep, didnt have a clue.. had to look it up and since this isnt politics, bush. i dont know anything about hugo, so he can't be worse than the person I do know about. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

03-12-2007, 08:46 PM	#3 (permalink)
Astrocloud Apocalypse Nerd	Worse to whom? Americans?

03-13-2007, 12:07 AM	#6 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	I doubt that most Americans would say that Bush is worse than Chavez. I highly doubt it. Hell, I suspect most Americans don't know even know who Hugo Chavez is, much less know anything about him.

03-13-2007, 01:30 AM	#8 (permalink)
Etarip Tilted	hmmm, Hugo: Practically a dictatorship now, may be screwing up his own country, the poor still love him last I heard, Bush: Still a democracy, screwing up other countries, ten's of thousands dead, approval rating in the thirties. Ehhh, I'm leaning towards bush on this one.

03-13-2007, 05:29 AM	#10 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Moved thread to Tilted Politics Texranger17 - I think that you need define your terms a little better. Chavez is pretty popular in Venezuela which leads me to believe that he's doing something right on his own domestic stage. He's certainly stepped to the forefront of Third World Leaders. Why do you think he's turning his country into another Cuba? Why is that necessarily bad for the US? __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

03-16-2007, 11:58 PM	#12 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Few men wont be corrupted, given enough power. While Bush does seem to be a megalomaniac bent on world domination, I'm sure Chavez would be too, given the opportunity. Chavez does seem to have a greater intellectual capacity, given the Bush standard of "Run Spot Run, See Spot Run" as a war cry. Sorry for the sarcasm, I cant stand Bush so he gets my vote for the Worst Person in the World! __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

03-17-2007, 06:56 AM	#14 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i dont understand what this thread is about. i dont understand what we are being asked. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

03-17-2007, 07:58 AM	#15 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	I remember a piece of Libertarian alternative-history fiction in which Fidel Castro became a professional baseball player. I can never hear/read one of Hugo's speeches without thinking that, in such a "best of all possible" world, Chavez would have been a -brilliant- screenwriter or stand-up comedian. I loathe his politics, but damn does that man ever have a flair for rhetoric.

03-25-2007, 10:12 AM	#16 (permalink)
archetypal fool Crazy Location: Florida	I sympathize with Chavez, to some remote extent, since he is trying to fix a Latin American country (most of which are always in the grips of dictators/depressions/economics shit-holes). A lot of damage has been done by colonization, and because of that, there are very wide gaps between the rich and poor (though not a deep at the US, but the poor are much poorer). To help the situation, Chavez tilts a little towards communism, taking land from the high and middle class people (of which a considerable number took the land from the natives anyways) and gives it to the poor, which are usually native. This is what Castro did, and well, we all know how that turned out, but there's no rule that says it has to end up the same way, since a lot of shit was fanned Cuba's way by the US, for example the embargo which continues today, leading to enormous economic lose. You can't blame Chavez for trying, and for trying to represent the poor of his country. Bush, on the other hand, seems to have a personal vendetta against the Constitution and civil rights, as well as a more-than-obvious lack of respect and understanding of foreign, sovereign states. And I'll bet my life savings, down to the last dollar, that Chavez could beat Bush in a debate about anything, even if he were forced to speak English (which he actually can...Does Bush speak a second language?). I'll bet he could even trounce Bush in basketball and at playing the guitar, for what it's worth.

03-25-2007, 10:41 AM	#17 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	We'll have to see how the socializing/nationalizing will effect Venezuela's economy and society, and if Chavez can stop himself from abusing the authority he's giving himself in the 18 month rule. The ability to rewrite organic law is scary, and I don't know if I trust anyone with that power. The thing is if this hurts Chevron Exxon and BP, it can't be all bad. I think everyone knows how I feel about Bush, so I'd say that Bush is worse and has done a lot more harm to the planet than Chavez ever could.

03-25-2007, 01:27 PM	#18 (permalink)
CptAJ Upright	Wow, nice to see some of you actually take the time to read about latin american politics instead of eating up all the bullshit the U.S. government tries to feed the world. Before I go into this here post let me tell you, I live in Venezuela. I was born here and I love this awesome piece of land. I'm also technically part of the opposition to Chavez's government. As a law school student I don't think he should have been a legal candidate considering he attempted a military coup a few decades ago. He was given full pardon (the actual legal figure is better than a pardon since it erases your criminal record entirely) and as such he was allowed to run as a candidate. I consider that a flaw in the previous constitution and this one. He's also lacking as a diplomat but thats neither here nor there at this point since he mainly attacks the U.S., which in my opinion and for a wide range of reasons deserve to be opposed in a political standpoint. That said, let me clarify a few misconceptions about Chavez: First of all, he's not "taking land" from anyone. That is a complete lie. Latin America has a long standing problem with latifundia (look it up in wikipedia). He's merely enforcing the laws created to solve this problem of several families having ridiculously vast amounts of idle territory in their property, a heritage of previous dictatorships and colonial rule. Second, Venezuela is FAR from being Cuba. Civil liberties are upheld here, there is free trade and capitalism. Chavez merely leans to the socialist side in order to solve immediate social problems. His revolution is a peaceful and legal one, unlike Fidel's. Not to mention that it is far more elaborate and planned out. He is loved by the people and there is no denying that fact. If thats not a testament to a good job so far as a leader, I don't know what is. Now lets look a the international stage. Chavez has made great relations with many countries during his time in office. The only government he doesn't get along with is the U.S. And with good reason. What would you do if the world's leading superpower arbitrarily deemed you a menace to the world? What would you do if said government repeatedly lied about your actions and your rights as a legitimate government? For all of Chavez's comments against the U.S., they pale in comparison to the damage the Bush administration's defamation campaign against my country has caused. Case in point, Bush claims Venezuela to be a destabilizing force in the south when all the Chavez administration has done is help out in the region. Chavez donates large portions of our oil wealth to help in other countries, he's promoting helpful socialist programmes in the region and he's trying to unify the latin american culture much like it was done in the european union. Of course, having a second powerful, unified, continental front to compete against in the world could be considered destabilizing to U.S. hegemony. Then so be it, I say. Of course, he's not a perfect president either. The whole matter with his legislative powers is troublesome (specially to someone studying law), but keep in mind that his party already has absolute majority in the National Assembly (congress and whatnot), so this only expedites the inevitable Chavist legislation. He has one aim with the whole thing and there is no confusion about it. He wants to extend the legal opportunity of reelection and the presidential term. There has never been any doubt about this and he's never lead anyone to think otherwise. From his first year in office one of his slogans has been "to 2021", which is his clearly stated intended date of retiring from presidential power. What can I say? The people support him in this and he's never lied to them. I'm personally against it but thats democracy at its finest for you. He's done a decent job so far (commendable in comparison to some of our previous presidents, in fact). One can only hope he'll keep his revolution in the right track... PS: To get back to the main topic though. I clearly think Bush is far worse. __________________ "Knowledge comes by eyes always open and working hands, and there is no knowledge that is not power." Jeremy Taylor

06-14-2007, 08:24 AM	#23 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	I voted for Alice Cooper. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

03-25-2007, 04:41 PM	#19 (permalink)
archetypal fool Crazy Location: Florida	CptAJ, thanks a lot for that great reply. I hadn't heard from someone actually living in Venezuela. You see, all I used to have to go with was all the bullshit the US news stations say about Chavez ("He called our president the devil! He's a menace!) and the quasi-bullshit my Cuban family has to say about him (I'm Cuban). I say that because Cubans see or hear of Chavez reappropriating land and consider him to be like Castro, since that's one of the very first things he did when he seized control. So Cubans naturally fear Chavez, to some extent, and some see him as nothing more than a regular ol' communist, which obviously isn't the case. And...um...yeah...Bush is an inarticulate boob.

06-13-2007, 03:29 PM	#22 (permalink)
tadger Upright Location: Blame Canada!	Bush is worse. He's a twat on the grandest scale. WMD in Iraq? Still searching. Building a cruise missile base in Poland will ensure world peace? Yeah, and my dick is 24" long (60cm for you Europeans). Israel are a poor oppressed nation and need all the international help they can get? Biggest perpetrators of genocide in the history of man (read your bible - it's all in there). The sooner someone does a JFK on him, the safer the world will be. Oh, and Putin too. He needs a slap as well, the Ruski fuckbreath.