three cheers for socialism - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

dksuddeth · 03-07-2007, 02:00 AM

for all of you who wish to 'socialize' the united states....this is a taste of whats coming. don't say you weren't warned.

France bans 'citizen' journalists from reporting violence

banning civilian journalism click to show

By Peter Sayer, IDG News Service

The French Constitutional Council has approved a law that criminalizes the filming or broadcasting of acts of violence by people other than professional journalists. The law could lead to the imprisonment of eyewitnesses who film acts of police violence, or operators of Web sites publishing the images, one French civil liberties group warned on Tuesday.

The council chose an unfortunate anniversary to publish its decision approving the law, which came exactly 16 years after Los Angeles police officers beating Rodney King were filmed by amateur videographer George Holliday on the night of March 3, 1991. The officers’ acquittal at the end on April 29, 1992 sparked riots in Los Angeles.

If Holliday were to film a similar scene of violence in France today, he could end up in prison as a result of the new law, said Pascal Cohet, a spokesman for French online civil liberties group Odebi. And anyone publishing such images could face up to five years in prison and a fine of €75,000 (US$98,537), potentially a harsher sentence than that for committing the violent act.

Senators and members of the National Assembly had asked the council to rule on the constitutionality of six articles of the Law relating to the prevention of delinquency. The articles dealt with information sharing by social workers, and reduced sentences for minors. The council recommended one minor change, to reconcile conflicting amendments voted in parliament. The law, proposed by Minister of the Interior Nicolas Sarkozy, is intended to clamp down on a wide range of public order offenses. During parliamentary debate of the law, government representatives said the offense of filming or distributing films of acts of violence targets the practice of “happy slapping,” in which a violent attack is filmed by an accomplice, typically with a camera phone, for the amusement of the attacker’s friends.

The broad drafting of the law so as to criminalize the activities of citizen journalists unrelated to the perpetrators of violent acts is no accident, but rather a deliberate decision by the authorities, said Cohet. He is concerned that the law, and others still being debated, will lead to the creation of a parallel judicial system controlling the publication of information on the Internet.

The government has also proposed a certification system for Web sites, blog hosters, mobile-phone operators and Internet service providers, identifying them as government-approved sources of information if they adhere to certain rules. The journalists’ organization Reporters Without Borders, which campaigns for a free press, has warned that such a system could lead to excessive self censorship as organizations worried about losing their certification suppress certain stories.

Etarip · 03-07-2007, 03:52 AM

And what, exactly does the socialist economic model have to do with government censorship?

dksuddeth · 03-07-2007, 04:27 AM

socialism leads to communism. It's inevitable. government censorship must be utilized in order to hide the many negatives of socialism. It will eventually lead to an erosion of civil rights....much like most of England already has.

dc_dux · 03-07-2007, 04:53 AM

Bush and the Repub Congress took the first step down that road when Congress passed and Bush signed the Broadcast Decency Enforcement Act, which increased the penalties for violations by TV broadcasters of the prohibitions against transmission of obscene, indecent, and profane material.

The bill was initiated by social conservatives outrage over the "indecent" Janet Jackson nipple exposure incident that may have traumatized America's children. There were additional bills still pending in the Repub Congress last year:

Quote:

There are currently two indecency bills pending, one in the Senate, another in the house; the FCC has increased fines to stations that air indecent programming, and is proposing for the first time fines to individual performers for violations in addition to levies against the offending broadcast organizations.
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2006/06/02/125836.php

ratbastid · 03-07-2007, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

socialism leads to communism. It's inevitable. government censorship must be utilized in order to hide the many negatives of socialism. It will eventually lead to an erosion of civil rights....much like most of England already has.

I don't even know where to start with this. There's SO much wrong with this statement.

First of all, you're confusing Communism with Fascism. Socialism is an economic system. Communism is a political system. Fascism is a control system. I know in conservativeland all apparently-bad things are linked together and arise simultaneously and as mutual causes of each other, but in reality they're not interchangeable. The most aggressively censoring government the world has ever known wasn't Socialist or Communist at all, despite the name "National Socialist Party". The Nazis had a more brutal clamp-down on the media than even Soviet Russia had.

I also dispute your assertion that "socialism leads to communism". First of all, the evil of Communism isn't at all self-evident, despite what McCarthy had to say about it. Second, there are LOTS of countries in the world with Socialist-leaning agendas both economically and socially. The vast majority of them are very successful Democracies.

Finally: if you're really that worried about civil rights, go demand the impeachment of your current President. He's done more to destroy civil rights than any leader in American history, and more than most leaders in the history of the world.

pig · 03-07-2007, 05:16 AM

so the question is, are the french people going to raise hell over this? i've seen those guys go ape shit in the streets before over worker's rights and so forth. after all the chicanery with the north african immigrants burning and looting a while back, i'm curious if the "native" french population will reject or support this measure? didn't i see that an increasing number had voted for le pen / national front recently?

regardless, dk, thanks for the information. i'm fairly certain i don't agree that i don't agree that this is related to socialism / socialized health care/retirement/etc. i would say that you can take any form of government and make it oppressive, and such measures will follow. people in power like to be in power, increase their power, and so forth. that's not a function of government style, that's a fact of life.

shakran · 03-07-2007, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

socialism leads to communism. It's inevitable. government censorship must be utilized in order to hide the many negatives of socialism. It will eventually lead to an erosion of civil rights....much like most of England already has.

If you're going to spread lies, at least try to make them plausible. Socialism does not lead to communism. Period. Ask Sweden.

Furthermore, if you're going to spread lies about socialism, try not to take a toddler viewpoint on it. Very few things are all bad, and very few things are all good. No one (here, that I know of) is trying to suggest that the US become entirely socialist. However, in certain areas, socialist concepts can be applied nicely.

And England isn't socialist or communist, it's a parlimentary representative democracy with a capitalist economy.

So far with the exception of your name, your entire statement is false, misleading, and absurd. Got anything else for us?

connyosis · 03-07-2007, 07:06 AM

Yes, we have a socialist system here. No, we're not communist. Yes, we're allowed to say whatever we want. (And even show boobs and curse on national TV, imagine that!)

Charlatan · 03-07-2007, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by connyosis

Yes, we have a socialist system here. No, we're not communist. Yes, we're allowed to say whatever we want. (And even show boobs and curse on national TV, imagine that!)

Bloody Brilliant!

That's what I love about this place, someone makes a very weak statement about censorship and ecomomic policies that have little or nothing to do with each other, a few people tear it (rightly so) to shreads and then someone comes in with nice (and comical) coup de grace.

I love it when a thread comes together.

The_Jazz · 03-07-2007, 07:27 AM

Wait, someone explain how this effects me? I'm not French, nor have I ever been (to the best of my knowledge). I don't even think I can manage to read French anymore, so I couldn't read these blogs anyway.

And what in the world does this have to do with socialism? I sort of feel like Mogatu at the end of "Zoolander" with this thread. Am I taking crazy pills?

flstf · 03-07-2007, 08:21 AM

Quote:

During parliamentary debate of the law, government representatives said the offense of filming or distributing films of acts of violence targets the practice of “happy slapping,” in which a violent attack is filmed by an accomplice, typically with a camera phone, for the amusement of the attacker’s friends.

As we have seen so often in the past from governments (including our own) the cure is worse than the illness. I imagine there are quite a few in our country who would like some restrictions put on private citizen video recording especially of our police in action.

A government doesn't have to be socialist to pass what many of us perceive as laws that go too far in restricting our freedom.

ironman · 03-07-2007, 08:21 AM

Last time i checked, most of the countries in the HDI's top 10 are socially oriented.

Willravel · 03-07-2007, 08:28 AM

This is what's wrong with people talking about politics. They decide some thing's a bad thing, then attribute everything bad to it.

Socialism has absolutely nothing to do with censorship, and Communism isn't out to get anyone. McCarthy was a cruel idiot, and anyone who follows his philosophy is living in the wrong decade.

pig · 03-07-2007, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Am I taking crazy pills?

Sounds like someone needs an ORANGE MOCHA FRAPPACINO!!!.

connyosis · 03-07-2007, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

socialism leads to communism. It's inevitable. government censorship must be utilized in order to hide the many negatives of socialism. It will eventually lead to an erosion of civil rights....much like most of England already has.

Wow...just wow. I better tell my neighbours that we do not have any rights anymore, that is if I have time before Stasi breaks through my door and arrests me for inciting a rebellion against our glorious government.

kutulu · 03-07-2007, 01:20 PM

I've seen you make some crazy connections but this trumps all of them. Ridiculous.

Willravel · 03-07-2007, 02:41 PM

DKsuddeth: Read the wikipedia article on socialism before you put your foot in your mouth again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

It's a well written article and will clear up any confusion.

lom · 03-07-2007, 02:42 PM

I dont think I can really add to what others have said but it worries me that someone would post these kinds of connections even in a jovial context. Is this really the naive view held by people across the pond? It stinks of 1980's propaganda against the Soviet Union. I would have hoped in 2007 noone would still be so easily influenced.

Etarip · 03-07-2007, 03:09 PM

America's big enough that the edges of the bell curve extend further into radical areas on both edges of the spectrum. Plus we do seem to still be dealing with the remnants of anti-Soviet propaganda, for example look at our continued treatment of Cuba. Also few American's have traveled abroad and have first hand experience under different political systems.

duck0987 · 03-26-2007, 06:46 PM

Thank god we are in america where we have no censorship over what the media can show. Like Boobs at the superbowl, or coffins draped with american flags coming back from Iraq. For a country that claims to be founded on Christ like ideals, we sure know how to fuck the poor by not giving them healthcare. Jesus was a socialist no way around that one.

samcol · 03-26-2007, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duck0987

Thank god we are in america where we have no censorship over what the media can show. Like Boobs at the superbowl, or coffins draped with american flags coming back from Iraq. For a country that claims to be founded on Christ like ideals, we sure know how to fuck the poor by not giving them healthcare. Jesus was a socialist no way around that one.

Wrong. Huge difference between government extracting money from citizens to redistribute wealth and willfully making the individual choice to do so. The difference is freewill. Christ was breaking more laws in the bible than he was following.

Rekna · 03-26-2007, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcol

Christ was breaking more laws in the bible than he was following.

That is a pretty bold statement and I don't want to derail this thread but I totally disagree with this statement and I'm sure most biblical scholars would agree with me.

Astrocloud · 03-26-2007, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

That is a pretty bold statement and I don't want to derail this thread but I totally disagree with this statement and I'm sure most biblical scholars would agree with me.

Sure, declaring yourself the messiah -doesn't go against Rabbinical laws. Seems like you should have another thread somewhere.

Rekna · 03-26-2007, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astrocloud

Sure, declaring yourself the messiah -doesn't go against Rabbinical laws. Seems like you should have another thread somewhere.

It doesn't if you are actually the messiah.... The old testament (which contains the torah). predicted the coming of the messiah so someone claiming it would not be against
the laws if they were really who they said they were.

I agree that we should have another thread if we want to discuss this further but unfortunately there is no good forum to put it in and starting a thread on this would ultimately lead to endless Christian bashing.

filtherton · 03-27-2007, 08:35 AM

Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuum, c'mon guys. Like, orbiting teapots, and shit.

roachboy · 03-27-2007, 08:49 AM

the problem with this thread should be obvious: dk is conflating a poorly written french law with the word socialism. he demonstrably has at best a loose grip on what socialism is: in this case it primarily refers to "that which i do not like."
the underlying assumption appears to be an argument from elective affinity, and the "data" amounts to an assumption that socialists have a monpoly on poorly written law (patriot act anyone?)

the premise of the thread is incoherent, so the discussion that follows cant really help but be incoherent as well. read the thread. qed.

ubertuber · 03-27-2007, 08:52 AM

Lame thread, and threadjacked to boot. I'll reopen if someone can PM me with some sort of compelling, or at least half-way rational reason to do so.

03-07-2007, 02:00 AM	#1 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	three cheers for socialism for all of you who wish to 'socialize' the united states....this is a taste of whats coming. don't say you weren't warned. France bans 'citizen' journalists from reporting violence banning civilian journalism click to show By Peter Sayer, IDG News Service The French Constitutional Council has approved a law that criminalizes the filming or broadcasting of acts of violence by people other than professional journalists. The law could lead to the imprisonment of eyewitnesses who film acts of police violence, or operators of Web sites publishing the images, one French civil liberties group warned on Tuesday. The council chose an unfortunate anniversary to publish its decision approving the law, which came exactly 16 years after Los Angeles police officers beating Rodney King were filmed by amateur videographer George Holliday on the night of March 3, 1991. The officers’ acquittal at the end on April 29, 1992 sparked riots in Los Angeles. If Holliday were to film a similar scene of violence in France today, he could end up in prison as a result of the new law, said Pascal Cohet, a spokesman for French online civil liberties group Odebi. And anyone publishing such images could face up to five years in prison and a fine of €75,000 (US$98,537), potentially a harsher sentence than that for committing the violent act. Senators and members of the National Assembly had asked the council to rule on the constitutionality of six articles of the Law relating to the prevention of delinquency. The articles dealt with information sharing by social workers, and reduced sentences for minors. The council recommended one minor change, to reconcile conflicting amendments voted in parliament. The law, proposed by Minister of the Interior Nicolas Sarkozy, is intended to clamp down on a wide range of public order offenses. During parliamentary debate of the law, government representatives said the offense of filming or distributing films of acts of violence targets the practice of “happy slapping,” in which a violent attack is filmed by an accomplice, typically with a camera phone, for the amusement of the attacker’s friends. The broad drafting of the law so as to criminalize the activities of citizen journalists unrelated to the perpetrators of violent acts is no accident, but rather a deliberate decision by the authorities, said Cohet. He is concerned that the law, and others still being debated, will lead to the creation of a parallel judicial system controlling the publication of information on the Internet. The government has also proposed a certification system for Web sites, blog hosters, mobile-phone operators and Internet service providers, identifying them as government-approved sources of information if they adhere to certain rules. The journalists’ organization Reporters Without Borders, which campaigns for a free press, has warned that such a system could lead to excessive self censorship as organizations worried about losing their certification suppress certain stories. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

03-07-2007, 04:27 AM	#3 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	socialism leads to communism. It's inevitable. government censorship must be utilized in order to hide the many negatives of socialism. It will eventually lead to an erosion of civil rights....much like most of England already has. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

03-07-2007, 05:16 AM	#6 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	so the question is, are the french people going to raise hell over this? i've seen those guys go ape shit in the streets before over worker's rights and so forth. after all the chicanery with the north african immigrants burning and looting a while back, i'm curious if the "native" french population will reject or support this measure? didn't i see that an increasing number had voted for le pen / national front recently? regardless, dk, thanks for the information. i'm fairly certain i don't agree that i don't agree that this is related to socialism / socialized health care/retirement/etc. i would say that you can take any form of government and make it oppressive, and such measures will follow. people in power like to be in power, increase their power, and so forth. that's not a function of government style, that's a fact of life. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

03-07-2007, 07:06 AM	#8 (permalink)
connyosis Psycho Location: Sweden - Land of the sodomite damned	Yes, we have a socialist system here. No, we're not communist. Yes, we're allowed to say whatever we want. (And even show boobs and curse on national TV, imagine that!) __________________ If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby.

03-07-2007, 07:27 AM	#10 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Wait, someone explain how this effects me? I'm not French, nor have I ever been (to the best of my knowledge). I don't even think I can manage to read French anymore, so I couldn't read these blogs anyway. And what in the world does this have to do with socialism? I sort of feel like Mogatu at the end of "Zoolander" with this thread. Am I taking crazy pills? __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

03-07-2007, 03:52 AM	#2 (permalink)
Etarip Tilted	And what, exactly does the socialist economic model have to do with government censorship?

03-07-2007, 08:21 AM	#12 (permalink)
ironman Smithers, release the hounds Location: Guatemala, Guatemala	Last time i checked, most of the countries in the HDI's top 10 are socially oriented. __________________ If I agreed with you we´d both be wrong

03-07-2007, 08:28 AM	#13 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	This is what's wrong with people talking about politics. They decide some thing's a bad thing, then attribute everything bad to it. Socialism has absolutely nothing to do with censorship, and Communism isn't out to get anyone. McCarthy was a cruel idiot, and anyone who follows his philosophy is living in the wrong decade.

03-07-2007, 01:20 PM	#16 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	I've seen you make some crazy connections but this trumps all of them. Ridiculous.

03-07-2007, 02:41 PM	#17 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	DKsuddeth: Read the wikipedia article on socialism before you put your foot in your mouth again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism It's a well written article and will clear up any confusion.

03-07-2007, 02:42 PM	#18 (permalink)
lom Upright	I dont think I can really add to what others have said but it worries me that someone would post these kinds of connections even in a jovial context. Is this really the naive view held by people across the pond? It stinks of 1980's propaganda against the Soviet Union. I would have hoped in 2007 noone would still be so easily influenced.

03-07-2007, 03:09 PM	#19 (permalink)
Etarip Tilted	America's big enough that the edges of the bell curve extend further into radical areas on both edges of the spectrum. Plus we do seem to still be dealing with the remnants of anti-Soviet propaganda, for example look at our continued treatment of Cuba. Also few American's have traveled abroad and have first hand experience under different political systems.

03-26-2007, 06:46 PM	#20 (permalink)
duck0987 Crazy Location: ohio	Thank god we are in america where we have no censorship over what the media can show. Like Boobs at the superbowl, or coffins draped with american flags coming back from Iraq. For a country that claims to be founded on Christ like ideals, we sure know how to fuck the poor by not giving them healthcare. Jesus was a socialist no way around that one. __________________ "I've got a lot of friends who don't know how to cook, which I could never understand because not knowing how to cook is like not knowing how to fuck." --Robert Rodriguez

03-27-2007, 08:35 AM	#25 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuum, c'mon guys. Like, orbiting teapots, and shit.

03-27-2007, 08:49 AM	#26 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	the problem with this thread should be obvious: dk is conflating a poorly written french law with the word socialism. he demonstrably has at best a loose grip on what socialism is: in this case it primarily refers to "that which i do not like." the underlying assumption appears to be an argument from elective affinity, and the "data" amounts to an assumption that socialists have a monpoly on poorly written law (patriot act anyone?) the premise of the thread is incoherent, so the discussion that follows cant really help but be incoherent as well. read the thread. qed. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

03-27-2007, 08:52 AM	#27 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	Lame thread, and threadjacked to boot. I'll reopen if someone can PM me with some sort of compelling, or at least half-way rational reason to do so. __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam