Dems ahead by 11744 now in VA...control 51 senate seats,Next:Karl Rove - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

host · 11-07-2006, 11:38 PM

If his past strategy, in a recount situation on behalf of his losing candidate is any indication, here is what Sen. elect Webb (D-VA), can expect next, from Karl Rove. I'd say that this is close to what Rove will attempt, how about you?

Quote:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200411/green
The Atlantic Monthly | November 2004

Karl Rove in a Corner

Karl Rove is at his most formidable when running close races, and his skills would be notable even if he used no extreme methods. But he does use them. His campaign history shows his willingness, when challenged, to employ savage tactics

by Joshua Green

.....Newspaper coverage on November 9, the morning after the election, focused on the Republican Fob James's upset of the Democratic Governor Jim Folsom. But another drama was rapidly unfolding. In the race for chief justice, which had been neck and neck the evening before, Hooper awoke to discover himself trailing by 698 votes. Throughout the day ballots trickled in from remote corners of the state, until at last an unofficial tally showed that Rove's client had lost—by 304 votes. Hornsby's campaign declared victory.

Rove had other plans, and immediately moved for a recount. "Karl called the next morning," says a former Rove staffer. "He said, 'We came real close. You guys did a great job. But now we really need to rally around Perry Hooper. We've got a real good shot at this, but we need to win over the people of Alabama.'" Rove explained how this was to be done. "Our role was to try to keep people motivated about Perry Hooper's election," the staffer continued, "and then to undermine the other side's support by casting them as liars, cheaters, stealers, immoral—all of that." (Rove did not respond to requests for an interview for this article.)

The campaign quickly obtained a restraining order to preserve the ballots. Then the tactical battle began. Rather than focus on a handful of Republican counties that might yield extra votes, Rove dispatched campaign staffers and hired investigators to every county to observe the counting and turn up evidence of fraud. In one county a probate judge was discovered to have erroneously excluded 100 votes for Hooper. Voting machines in two others had failed to count all the returns. Mindful of public opinion, according to staffers, the campaign spread tales of poll watchers threatened with arrest; probate judges locking themselves in their offices and refusing to admit campaign workers; votes being cast in absentia for comatose nursing-home patients; and Democrats caught in a cemetery writing down the names of the dead in order to put them on absentee ballots.

As the recount progressed, the margin continued to narrow. Three days after the election Hooper held a press conference to drive home the idea that the election was being stolen. He declared, "We have endured lies in this campaign, but I'll be damned if I will accept outright thievery." The recount stretched on, and Hooper's campaign continued to chip away at Hornsby's lead. By November 21 one tally had it at nine votes.

The race came down to a dispute over absentee ballots. Hornsby's campaign fought to include approximately 2,000 late-arriving ballots that had been excluded because they weren't notarized or witnessed, as required by law. Also mindful of public relations, the Hornsby campaign brought forward a man who claimed that the absentee ballot of his son, overseas in the military, was in danger of being disallowed. The matter wound up in court. "The last marching order we had from Karl," says a former employee, "was 'Make sure you continue to talk this up. The only way we're going to be successful is if the Alabama public continues to care about it.'"

Initially, things looked grim for Hooper. A circuit-court judge ruled that the absentee ballots should be counted, reasoning that voters' intent was the issue, and that by merely signing them, those who had cast them had "substantially complied" with the law. Hooper's lawyers appealed to a federal court. By Thanksgiving his campaign believed he was ahead—but also believed that the disputed absentee ballots, from heavily Democratic counties, would cost him the election. The campaign went so far as to sue every probate judge, circuit clerk, and sheriff in the state, alleging discrimination. Hooper continued to hold rallies throughout it all. On his behalf the business community bought ads in newspapers across the state that said, "They steal elections they don't like." Public opinion began tilting toward him.

The recount stretched into the following year. On Inauguration Day both candidates appeared for the ceremonies. By March the all-Democratic Alabama Supreme Court had ordered that the absentee ballots be counted. By April the matter was before the Eleventh Federal Circuit Court. The byzantine legal maneuvering continued for months. In mid-October a federal appeals-court judge finally ruled that the ballots could not be counted, and ordered the secretary of state to certify Hooper as the winner—only to have Hornsby's legal team appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court, which temporarily stayed the case. By now the recount had dragged on for almost a year.

When I went to visit Hooper, not long ago, we sat in the parlor of his Montgomery home as he described the denouement of Karl Rove's closest race. "On the afternoon of October the nineteenth," Hooper recalled, "I was in the back yard planting five hundred pink sweet Williams in my wife's garden, and she hollered out the back door, 'Your secretary just called—the Supreme Court just made a ruling that you're the chief justice of the Alabama Supreme Court!'" In the final tally he had prevailed by just 262 votes. Hooper smiled broadly and handed me a large photo of his swearing-in ceremony the next day. "That Karl Rove was a very impressive fellow," he said.

In the decade since, the recount and the court battle have faded into obscurity, save for one brief period, late in 2000, when they suddenly became relevant again. Almost as if to remind Al Gore's campaign of Rove's skill when faced with a recount, the case was revived in a flurry of legal briefs in the Supreme Court case of Bush v. Gore—including one filed by the State of Alabama on behalf of George W. Bush......

As I write this, McCaskill has been declared the winner in the Missouri senate race, and democrat Tester is leading Burns 135,000 to 128,000 in the Montana senate race. Allow me to be the first to post congratulations to the democratic party for its successful campaign to retake control of both the US house and senate !

scout · 11-08-2006, 02:17 AM

Don't get your panties in to big of a bunch over the latest election results. I don't think it so much the Democratic campaign that won the election but more probable the Republicans lack of doing anything useful that won it for the Democrats. After the last election Mr. Bush and the Republicans wasted to much political capital on stupid things and not on the things America wants or what we sent them there to do. Hopefully the Democrats won't make the same mistake and we can move this country forward in a positive way. Another hopeful is the Democrats forget about gun control and a few of the other issues that cost them so dearly in past elections. If they don't I'm afraid the next election it will slide the other way once again. One thing both parties should be aware of is the increasing attractiveness of the Libertarian Party. People are tired of the status quo, the same-o-same-o day in and day out. People want positive change. Anyway, congrats and good luck to the Democratic Party and please stay in the middle ground and don't blow this chance on stupid, moronic bullshit.

analog · 11-08-2006, 04:13 AM

[MOD NOTE]
This is a generic, pre-emptive warning to all those who post in the Tilted Politics forum, based on the upcoming heat from post-election talk.

Save the smarmy one-liners and quips, keep your trolling and baiting under control, and we'll all survive this election period.

Keep up the shenanigans, and see how quickly the temp bans fly.

Consider this the first warning- anything after this will come with short vacations.

Remember to respect each other as people with differing viewpoints, and convey that respect when debating those viewpoints.

Thanks

- analog.

[/MOD NOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scout

Don't get your panties in to big of a bunch over the latest election results.

See now, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Is that constructive, or even respectfully worded? No.

Move along with some better manners. Tilted Politics is not carte blanche to mouth off to others. This is how little flame wars get started. They stop here.

- analog.

(as you were...)

NCB · 11-08-2006, 04:36 AM

Lets see.....the Dems win the Congress for the first time in 12 years and all host is consumed about is Karl Rove? Nothing about the war, nothing about homosexual redefinition of marriage, nothing about tax rates. No, Karl Rove is in the front of his mind. Sad state of affairs we're in

analog · 11-08-2006, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

Lets see.....the Dems win the Congress for the first time in 12 years and all host is consumed about is Karl Rove? Nothing about the war, nothing about homosexual redefinition of marriage, nothing about tax rates. No, Karl Rove is in the front of his mind. Sad state of affairs we're in

[MOD NOTE]

This is not on-topic. This is a troll. There will be many other threads about many other things; this thread is about this thing. If you want a thread about any of the number of other things you mentioned, go make one. Until then, contribute to the conversation or keep the trolling remarks to yourself, please.

This is the type of pointless disrespect that has become rampant in Tilted Politics, and it won't continue to go by unnoticed.

Thank you all,

- analog.

[/MOD NOTE]

NCB · 11-08-2006, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

[MOD NOTE]

This is not on-topic. This is a troll. There will be many other threads about many other things; this thread is about this thing. If you want a thread about any of the number of other things you mentioned, go make one. Until then, contribute to the conversation or keep the trolling remarks to yourself, please.

This is the type of pointless disrespect that has become rampant in Tilted Politics, and it won't continue to go by unnoticed.

Thank you all,

- analog.

[/MOD NOTE]

Not on topic? Have you read the article and inital comments? Its a thread about the election and Karl Rove and my comment reflects as such. It is a sad state of affairs when after a major electoral victory the first thing on some's mind is settleing old scores.

No need to overmoderate analog, we all know the rules and youve warned us in the prvious threads as well. We are well aware of your presence and eagerness of enforcing the rules. I, as most, wont be giving any trouble

shakran · 11-08-2006, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

a sad state of affairs when after a major electoral victory the first thing on some's mind is settleing old scores.

It's not settling old scores, it's worry that Rove will try to steal the election even though the republicans somehow managed to lose it.

But I do agree with you that your comment was not off topic.

analog · 11-08-2006, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

Not on topic? Have you read the article and inital comments? Its a thread about the election and Karl Rove and my comment reflects as such. It is a sad state of affairs when after a major electoral victory the first thing on some's mind is settleing old scores.

No need to overmoderate analog, we all know the rules and youve warned us in the prvious threads as well. We are well aware of your presence and eagerness of enforcing the rules. I, as most, wont be giving any trouble

The point was that, rather than going and talking about the subject at hand, you complained that the subject was even up for discussion, giving a laundry list of other things you'd rather see discussed first. That's just unnecessary. That's not on-topic, that's trolling the thread starter because you don't like the subject matter.

As for overmoderation, I hardly think advising people against trolling, whether or not you ultimately agree with me, is overmoderation. At all. I'm just steering the discourse in the direction we all want it- respectful. Overmoderation would be giving you a warning for it, or a temp ban. I don't have an eagerness to enforce rules; I wish you all could get along so we wouldn't have to watch this forum like parents watch a toddler in a china shop- but we DO have to watch you all, and my eagerness is to see that all the members feel comfortable posting in the forums, and that people are not being flamed for voicing their opinions.

Thanks,

- analog.

Elphaba · 11-09-2006, 04:17 PM

Analog, isn't that what the "Report Post" feature is for? I am fairly certain that we all know the proper use for it.

ubertuber · 11-09-2006, 04:41 PM

Or... the VA and MT elections pass with no push for a recount.

SteelyLoins · 11-18-2006, 09:56 PM

In the last ten days, Rove has stolen no elections.. If there have been recounts, court cases, or accusations of voting chicanery, they have been essentially under the radar.

That being the case, the irrational hatred of Rove in evidence here is, to say the least, misplaced.

Hardknock · 11-20-2006, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

The point was that, rather than going and talking about the subject at hand, you complained that the subject was even up for discussion, giving a laundry list of other things you'd rather see discussed first. That's just unnecessary. That's not on-topic, that's trolling the thread starter because you don't like the subject matter.

As for overmoderation, I hardly think advising people against trolling, whether or not you ultimately agree with me, is overmoderation. At all. I'm just steering the discourse in the direction we all want it- respectful. Overmoderation would be giving you a warning for it, or a temp ban. I don't have an eagerness to enforce rules; I wish you all could get along so we wouldn't have to watch this forum like parents watch a toddler in a china shop- but we DO have to watch you all, and my eagerness is to see that all the members feel comfortable posting in the forums, and that people are not being flamed for voicing their opinions.

Thanks,

- analog.

This (the mod posts in this thread which is overmoderation) is why I do not donate $$$ to this site. I don't appreciate mods chiming in on random posts with the assumption that the participants will act immaturely in some way and because of said assumption, they need to be monitored. Frankly, I find this insulting to my intelligence and I also don't appreciate being treated like a child who needs their hand held while they create threads. I feel like I can't express my true opinions here on TFP because I have to spend all my time worrying about temp bans. In all honesty, my interest in this site has dwindled over the past few months. Halx, I think that you have too many mods and I think that they're overdoing it. I understand that you want to keep the site clean, but there's a limit. Go over that limit and your users start to lose interest because posting here is too much like walking on eggshells. Something to think about.

tecoyah · 11-20-2006, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteelyLoins

In the last ten days, Rove has stolen no elections.. If there have been recounts, court cases, or accusations of voting chicanery, they have been essentially under the radar.

That being the case, the irrational hatred of Rove in evidence here is, to say the least, misplaced.

While very few can say they Like Rove, most give him the respect he is due....the man is quite skilled at his job. Unfortunately for the republican machine, it would seem the tide was too strong to turn, yet they tried to win.....give them credit.
The important thing in my mind now, is to avoid simply continuing the split between parties, and fix a broken system. There is opportunity here, which should be used to benefit the country as a whole, rather than consolidate a power structure. If everyone decides to start working together, rather than against each other we can make this country great again, and increase security at the same time.

As for Over-Moderation...It's a fine line folks, and sometimes gets crossed accidentally. Give the guy a break and try to work within the guidelines we are given. Or....simply join a devoted Politics Board, and beat the hell outa whoever you want, I did.....heh.

kutulu · 11-22-2006, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah

As for Over-Moderation...It's a fine line folks, and sometimes gets crossed accidentally. Give the guy a break and try to work within the guidelines we are given. Or....simply join a devoted Politics Board, and beat the hell outa whoever you want, I did.....heh.

For a while I thought they were overmoderating that that has changed for the better. They have been letting people get away with a lot more than they used to and I think it has helped a lot. I see nothing wrong with Analog's mod post there.

11-09-2006, 04:41 PM	#10 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	Or... the VA and MT elections pass with no push for a recount. __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

11-08-2006, 02:17 AM	#2 (permalink)
scout Psycho	Don't get your panties in to big of a bunch over the latest election results. I don't think it so much the Democratic campaign that won the election but more probable the Republicans lack of doing anything useful that won it for the Democrats. After the last election Mr. Bush and the Republicans wasted to much political capital on stupid things and not on the things America wants or what we sent them there to do. Hopefully the Democrats won't make the same mistake and we can move this country forward in a positive way. Another hopeful is the Democrats forget about gun control and a few of the other issues that cost them so dearly in past elections. If they don't I'm afraid the next election it will slide the other way once again. One thing both parties should be aware of is the increasing attractiveness of the Libertarian Party. People are tired of the status quo, the same-o-same-o day in and day out. People want positive change. Anyway, congrats and good luck to the Democratic Party and please stay in the middle ground and don't blow this chance on stupid, moronic bullshit.

11-09-2006, 04:17 PM	#9 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	Analog, isn't that what the "Report Post" feature is for? I am fairly certain that we all know the proper use for it.

11-18-2006, 09:56 PM	#11 (permalink)
SteelyLoins Upright	In the last ten days, Rove has stolen no elections.. If there have been recounts, court cases, or accusations of voting chicanery, they have been essentially under the radar. That being the case, the irrational hatred of Rove in evidence here is, to say the least, misplaced.