President's agenda for today: Armageddon . . . - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Sun Tzu · 10-14-2006, 01:45 PM

Three years ago I posted a poll here regarding a US president’s spiritual beliefs when they entered office. A majority of the poll felt they should continue their beliefs while serving as president. A movie I had watched “Deterrence” posed the thought that regardless of their beliefs they should make every attempt to approach their actions as an agnostic. For those that don’t know- agnostic differs from an atheist in they are not denying the existence of God. An Agnostic neither denies nor acknowledges the existence of God.

I am a former Christian, so I’m well versed in the Bible. At this point in my life the Bible holds as much weight as the Odyssey written by Homer. I consider myself an agnostic with the hopes that there is perhaps a grand designer out there, but certainly far from what the men that wrote the Bible describes.

I do strongly feel that people should practice as they believe with the exception of someone holding the executive office. It doesn’t take a belief in God to know right and wrong, to be a giver instead of a taker, to assume office with the mindset of serving the public. My main concern is this: if someone with a complete belief that the Bible is reality, and they base their decisions and actions accordingly, then there is no doubt in their mind that Armageddon is coming. They have complete belief that Jesus (the New Testament that is) will return, but the world is going to have to be purged first.

So that translates to the President fully believing Armageddon is inevitable. Can anyone see the inherent danger in that? The reason I feel having an agnostic president that has a strong value system (if there is such a person) is a better direction; it takes the focus off God and invests full attention to ; the populous. I think it would be beneficial to have people from all religions as part of their advisory staff, as well as members from all political parties.

I think I know how Christians feel about this, but my point and question is:

Do you think a President that carries the belief that the end of the world is a reality something to be considered? Or if you are Christian do you think having this belief could in any way have an effect on choices that could initiate the beginning of Armageddon?

I don’t know the last time there was a devote Christian in office. I believe there is a strong evangelical base that carries enough weight to influence policy.

djtestudo · 10-14-2006, 03:14 PM

I think that as long as the President doesn't make decisions based on a belief in the "end of the world", such as religious persecution, extreme military buildup for no reason, appointing the anti-Christ as Secretary of State, etc., there shouldn't be a problem.

Part of the Christian belief structure is that Jesus will one day return and the world will end, so it isn't as though this is some radical cultic belief. Just because it is known that the President believes it shouldn't mean a thing.

Sun Tzu · 10-14-2006, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djtestudo

I think that as long as the President doesn't make decisions based on a belief in the "end of the world", such as religious persecution, extreme military buildup for no reason, appointing the anti-Christ as Secretary of State, etc., there shouldn't be a problem.

Part of the Christian belief structure is that Jesus will one day return and the world will end, so it isn't as though this is some radical cultic belief. Just because it is known that the President believes it shouldn't mean a thing.

Thats my point a true Christian President would have the belief the world is going to end. Choices may not have to be as gradual as the ones you mentioned. An influenced choice could be drastic. This isnt to say that a president wouldnt just keep doing the best they can and continue on with business as usual, but business is intense these days.

Im not sure I follow what you are saying in the last part of your post. Are you saying that it is not radical to believe the end is coming? If so, again that is my point.

Ch'i · 10-14-2006, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu

Are you saying that it is not radical to believe the end is coming? If so, again that is my point.

I believe that the end is coming eventually, and I'm not Christian, or radical. Such a belief never points to fanaticism unless they're up on a podium, or street corner, shouting that its coming soon and that we should all repent.

filtherton · 10-14-2006, 08:14 PM

I've thought about this before too. I think that is especially scary since the president no doubt sees himself as one of the one who will be spared the ensuing chaos. You have to wonder whether there will ever be a point where the biblical apocalypse won't become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Though now that i've thought about it more, i think that it has become pretty clear that the president is only an evangelical to get votes. He isn't really all that religious, which is obvious if you look at his domestic and foreign policy choices. I hope the part of him that rejects all obvious interpretations of the teaching of jesus also rejects any kind of notion of a bibilical apocalypse.

Willravel · 10-14-2006, 10:39 PM

Here's the thing, most religous people who belong to religons that believe in end times are content to know that someday there will be end times and they live their lives. Most of them are good people just trying to make their way in the world and to be good people. I respect these people. I aplaude these people. Mose are cool. Most, not all. Some religous people are content to live life believing that God will return to judge in their lifetimes, and even worse these people somehow think that they can act as a catalyst for judgment day. These few are clearly insane, and should seek professional help*. If someone from the latter group were to become president, we would all be in serious trouble. Can you imagine making policy with the firm belief that sometime in the next 30 years it would all be gone? That is the reason I fear and loathe theocracy, and that is the reason I am concerned with presidents (or anyone else for that matter) making political decisions based on religous beliefs.

*Sorry if I offended anyone, but read the bible. It's very clear that God and God alone knows when the last day will be, and we are not supposed to guess.

Coppertop · 10-15-2006, 08:46 AM

Quoted for truth, emphasis mine:

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

Though now that i've thought about it more, i think that it has become pretty clear that the president is only an evangelical to get votes. He isn't really all that religious, which is obvious if you look at his domestic and foreign policy choices. I hope the part of him that rejects all obvious interpretations of the teaching of jesus also rejects any kind of notion of a bibilical apocalypse.

Indeed, wasn't Christ about love, not war? We all know where Bush falls between the two.

dc_dux · 10-15-2006, 01:11 PM

In a meeting with Palestinian leaders in 03, Bush was reported to have said (link):

"God would tell me, George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan. And I did, and then God would tell me, George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq... And I did.

"And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East. And by God I'm gonna do it."

The White House denied Bush ever said it, and the Palestinian negotiator who first reported it later said he didnt take Bush literally...:

"We understood that he was illustrating [in his comments] his strong faith and his belief that this is what God wanted."

.... I still find it troubling that Bush would be guided by "what God wants" and not by strategic national security and foreign policy objectives....particularly when your recall how he is also reported to have not consulted his father (who knew something about Iraq from the first Gulf war) on the wisdom of invading Iraq:

When asked by Woodward (in his book on the Iraq invasion) if he discussed with his father the issue of Iraq, Bush hauntingly said, "You know, he is the wrong father to appeal to in terms of strength. There is a higher father that I appeal to."

I appreciate Bush's religious beliefs and dont doubt that they are sincere, but, at the very least, those beliefs should be balanced with an objective analysis before he asks American men and women to put their lives on the line.

Lady Sage · 10-15-2006, 03:15 PM

Begin rant...

It bothers me that there is supposed to be seperation of church and state yet the president wants to take away the right for me to practice my religion.

How is this ok?

In my mind it isnt and never will be. Freedom of religion is freedom of ANY religion. He can worship the great pumpkin for all I care but for some odd reason he doesnt want me to have that freedom.

End rant.

hiredgun · 10-15-2006, 05:07 PM

Lady Sage: Out of curiosity, in what way is the President encroaching on your freedom of religion?

As far as the topic goes:

I don't think it's fair to ask a leader to divorce his religious beliefs from his work. How should he even begin to do that? If his belief is sincere, is it even possible for him to temporarily re-arrange his entire worldview during the workday? It's sort of a ridiculous demand.

Certainly faith could conceivably lead to disastrous policy consequences. If that happens, the responsibility lies with those who elected him. When you vote for a man, you vote for all of him; his convictions, including religious ones, are part of the package, and we should consider them when we vote.

Lady Sage · 10-15-2006, 09:48 PM

I will see if I can find the article I found a few months back and tell you where I found it.

I like the way Arnold in Cali works it... Example: He was once asked why he votes against his Catholic faith. He replied that he has to vote how the majority of the people who elected him feel because that is his job... even if it isnt quite how he feels about it.

I admire that in a politition.

10-14-2006, 01:45 PM	#1 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	President's agenda for today: Armageddon . . . Three years ago I posted a poll here regarding a US president’s spiritual beliefs when they entered office. A majority of the poll felt they should continue their beliefs while serving as president. A movie I had watched “Deterrence” posed the thought that regardless of their beliefs they should make every attempt to approach their actions as an agnostic. For those that don’t know- agnostic differs from an atheist in they are not denying the existence of God. An Agnostic neither denies nor acknowledges the existence of God. I am a former Christian, so I’m well versed in the Bible. At this point in my life the Bible holds as much weight as the Odyssey written by Homer. I consider myself an agnostic with the hopes that there is perhaps a grand designer out there, but certainly far from what the men that wrote the Bible describes. I do strongly feel that people should practice as they believe with the exception of someone holding the executive office. It doesn’t take a belief in God to know right and wrong, to be a giver instead of a taker, to assume office with the mindset of serving the public. My main concern is this: if someone with a complete belief that the Bible is reality, and they base their decisions and actions accordingly, then there is no doubt in their mind that Armageddon is coming. They have complete belief that Jesus (the New Testament that is) will return, but the world is going to have to be purged first. So that translates to the President fully believing Armageddon is inevitable. Can anyone see the inherent danger in that? The reason I feel having an agnostic president that has a strong value system (if there is such a person) is a better direction; it takes the focus off God and invests full attention to ; the populous. I think it would be beneficial to have people from all religions as part of their advisory staff, as well as members from all political parties. I think I know how Christians feel about this, but my point and question is: Do you think a President that carries the belief that the end of the world is a reality something to be considered? Or if you are Christian do you think having this belief could in any way have an effect on choices that could initiate the beginning of Armageddon? I don’t know the last time there was a devote Christian in office. I believe there is a strong evangelical base that carries enough weight to influence policy. __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking*

10-14-2006, 03:14 PM	#2 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	I think that as long as the President doesn't make decisions based on a belief in the "end of the world", such as religious persecution, extreme military buildup for no reason, appointing the anti-Christ as Secretary of State, etc., there shouldn't be a problem. Part of the Christian belief structure is that Jesus will one day return and the world will end, so it isn't as though this is some radical cultic belief. Just because it is known that the President believes it shouldn't mean a thing. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

10-15-2006, 01:11 PM	#8 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	In a meeting with Palestinian leaders in 03, Bush was reported to have said (link): "God would tell me, George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan. And I did, and then God would tell me, George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq... And I did. "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East. And by God I'm gonna do it." The White House denied Bush ever said it, and the Palestinian negotiator who first reported it later said he didnt take Bush literally...: "We understood that he was illustrating [in his comments] his strong faith and his belief that this is what God wanted." .... I still find it troubling that Bush would be guided by "what God wants" and not by strategic national security and foreign policy objectives....particularly when your recall how he is also reported to have not consulted his father (who knew something about Iraq from the first Gulf war) on the wisdom of invading Iraq: When asked by Woodward (in his book on the Iraq invasion) if he discussed with his father the issue of Iraq, Bush hauntingly said, "You know, he is the wrong father to appeal to in terms of strength. There is a higher father that I appeal to." I appreciate Bush's religious beliefs and dont doubt that they are sincere, but, at the very least, those beliefs should be balanced with an objective analysis before he asks American men and women to put their lives on the line. __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire

10-15-2006, 03:15 PM	#9 (permalink)
Lady Sage Mistress of Mayhem Location: Canton, Ohio	Begin rant... It bothers me that there is supposed to be seperation of church and state yet the president wants to take away the right for me to practice my religion. How is this ok? In my mind it isnt and never will be. Freedom of religion is freedom of ANY religion. He can worship the great pumpkin for all I care but for some odd reason he doesnt want me to have that freedom. End rant. __________________ If only closed minds came with closed mouths. Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open. It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

10-15-2006, 09:48 PM	#11 (permalink)
Lady Sage Mistress of Mayhem Location: Canton, Ohio	I will see if I can find the article I found a few months back and tell you where I found it. I like the way Arnold in Cali works it... Example: He was once asked why he votes against his Catholic faith. He replied that he has to vote how the majority of the people who elected him feel because that is his job... even if it isnt quite how he feels about it. I admire that in a politition. __________________ If only closed minds came with closed mouths. Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open. It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

10-14-2006, 08:14 PM	#5 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I've thought about this before too. I think that is especially scary since the president no doubt sees himself as one of the one who will be spared the ensuing chaos. You have to wonder whether there will ever be a point where the biblical apocalypse won't become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Though now that i've thought about it more, i think that it has become pretty clear that the president is only an evangelical to get votes. He isn't really all that religious, which is obvious if you look at his domestic and foreign policy choices. I hope the part of him that rejects all obvious interpretations of the teaching of jesus also rejects any kind of notion of a bibilical apocalypse.

10-14-2006, 10:39 PM	#6 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Here's the thing, most religous people who belong to religons that believe in end times are content to know that someday there will be end times and they live their lives. Most of them are good people just trying to make their way in the world and to be good people. I respect these people. I aplaude these people. Mose are cool. Most, not all. Some religous people are content to live life believing that God will return to judge in their lifetimes, and even worse these people somehow think that they can act as a catalyst for judgment day. These few are clearly insane, and should seek professional help. If someone from the latter group were to become president, we would all be in serious trouble. Can you imagine making policy with the firm belief that sometime in the next 30 years it would all be gone? That is the reason I fear and loathe theocracy, and that is the reason I am concerned with presidents (or anyone else for that matter) making political decisions based on religous beliefs. Sorry if I offended anyone, but read the bible. It's very clear that God and God alone knows when the last day will be, and we are not supposed to guess.

10-15-2006, 05:07 PM	#10 (permalink)
hiredgun Addict	Lady Sage: Out of curiosity, in what way is the President encroaching on your freedom of religion? As far as the topic goes: I don't think it's fair to ask a leader to divorce his religious beliefs from his work. How should he even begin to do that? If his belief is sincere, is it even possible for him to temporarily re-arrange his entire worldview during the workday? It's sort of a ridiculous demand. Certainly faith could conceivably lead to disastrous policy consequences. If that happens, the responsibility lies with those who elected him. When you vote for a man, you vote for all of him; his convictions, including religious ones, are part of the package, and we should consider them when we vote.