10-18-2006, 07:15 AM | #81 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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I think the first thing removed in a liberal is his sense of humor.
If you were really interested in, contributing to the discussion in any meaningful way, you would have pmed me your message but instead you posted it here for all to read. P.S. Read the Koran, you will find it very interesting I'm sure and its a pretty easy read.
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10-18-2006, 07:27 AM | #82 (permalink) | ||
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Lend me a little under 6 minutes and watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C10sSC2kB3Q It is from Richard Dawkins' documentary on faith; Dawkins is an outspoken atheist and makes a pretty vitriolic attack on Christianity based on scripture. Can you please explain to me the difference between his analysis of the Bible, and your understanding of the Qur'an? Last edited by hiredgun; 10-18-2006 at 07:32 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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10-18-2006, 08:07 AM | #83 (permalink) | |
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I have tried on numerous threads to discuss the issues with you in a civil and rational manner.... from your assertions about Carter and Rice to radio deregulation and the problems with islam. More often then not, you respond with sarcasm and what you obviously think are "witty" and humorous retorts. There is a reason I callled you out publicly on your latest...and I will continue to do so when I see an inane post. (consider this such a public response). But I will also discuss the issues with you anytime you are prepared to do so in a mature and reasonable way.
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10-18-2006, 08:21 AM | #84 (permalink) |
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Location: essex ma
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i'll answer the questions posed earlier in this thread, but not in this context.
you want an actual discussion, mojo, please start another thread. this one is done.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
10-18-2006, 08:58 AM | #85 (permalink) | ||
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10-18-2006, 09:20 AM | #87 (permalink) | |
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Obviously, there are millions of Muslims who denounce terror, as any simple search of the net or news sites will show. People, however, speak of Islam as if it were one big religion, with some Pope sitting at the head of it telling people what to do. There is no centralization of Islam, and there are many sects. It is very obvious that in some parts of the Muslim world - Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan - a breeding ground exists for terrorism, due in part to the shithole conditions that these people live in brought about by constant warfare, poverty and oppression, and in part due to groups using Islam to motivate others into commiting terror attacks. Whereas other areas are much more stable, making genuine movement towards more secular, democratic, representative and liberal forms of government and society. As for the line about not blaiming the US for Islamic terrorism, Iraq used to be a secular country without religious terrorism. Now it is a nation utterly engulfed by terrorism based upon religion, and in which the various sects prey upon one another. Everyone involved in this - from Muslims around the world to the US and it allies - have had a hand in the rise of terrorism, and it is either incredibly partisan or incredibly uneducated to suggest otherwise. I take exception to some of hiredgun's statements as well. I don't live in Pakistan, I'm not a Muslim, but I have absolutely heard Muslims speak of hating the US and the west (even while living here) and at least quietly applauding certain terrorist actions. I find it ... implausible to think he has never heard a Muslim express such sentiments in his presence, when surely, he knows more Muslims than I do.
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10-18-2006, 10:47 AM | #88 (permalink) |
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I'm sorry you find my experiences implausible, highthief. They are mine, and true, although I don't make any particular claims as to how far they can be generalized. My connections to Pakistan are largely friends and family, and as you can imagine, it would not be easy to support anti-American terror when you have loved ones living in the bullseye.
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10-18-2006, 11:09 AM | #89 (permalink) | |||||||||||
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Has the thought crossed any of your minds that it is "odd" that one man, neocon trained, PNAC member, Zalmay Khalilzad, "picked" Karzai to rule Afghanistan, served as US ambassador in Afghanistan, and then moved on to pick the Iraqi government coalition, and now serves as US ambassador to Iraq, after a track record of defining the US strategy for that region of the world, under the influence of "Jihad" book publisher, Thomas E. Gouttierre...obscure Nebraska professor, the only man from academia who apparently advises the US government on Afghan affairs? If there really is an emerging "caliphate" that Bush is committed to stop, why are the ranks of diplomatic and DOD personnel, so "thin"? Why does Zalmay Khalilzad appear to be the "entire show"? <b>Can any of you who have been "spoon-fed" this "Isalmic Fascist" bullshit, and then enthusiastically "licked the spoon", even stand to read the following contradictions? Doesn't the reporting document that the CIA and USAID were the authors of jihad? What have you personally, been right about, lately? My advice is to open your mind. I'm sharing the information that I have found. It speaks volumes about you, when your reaction is to attack me personally, just because I show you things that threaten your belief systems.</b> Quote:
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10-18-2006, 11:17 AM | #90 (permalink) | ||||||||||
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...and this is the manipulated message....courtesy of the US government and the "Lincoln Group", that you've apparently bought into. It's as contrived and irrational, IMO, as Bush's description of how Saddam could have "avoided war".
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10-18-2006, 01:00 PM | #91 (permalink) | |
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Polls such as this: http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2006/s1766106.htm lend some credence to the idea that support for terrorism, while hardly universal as some on Team Bush like to claim, is nevertheless, substantial even in nations like Indonesia, a somewhat less hard line Muslim nation than many others. And this one: http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=248
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Si vis pacem parabellum. Last edited by highthief; 10-18-2006 at 01:20 PM.. |
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10-18-2006, 01:28 PM | #92 (permalink) |
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Ok Host, so Karzi is a proven ally with strong tribal roots in Afghanistan and a deep understanding of the culture. So obviously using him to aid our interests proves that Islamiscism is simply made up in order for Bush to declare war.
Sorry, if we weren't using Karzi's expertise in the region I would be pissed.
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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas |
10-18-2006, 02:45 PM | #94 (permalink) | |
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Foreign Affairs magazine conducted a survey recently on "Public Confidence in U.S. Foreign Policy:
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If that overwhelming majority of Americans surveyed feel that our policies are aiding the recruitment of terrorists, isnt it logical that moderate muslims around the world would have the same sentiment? I would put myself among the 53% who believe that "improved communication and dialogue with the Muslim world will reduce hatred of the U.S." There is no guarantee of success and certainly nothing we, or any outsiders do will have an immediate impact, but IMO, dialogue and a change in policy would be a step in the right direction.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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10-18-2006, 03:37 PM | #96 (permalink) |
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I dont see anywhere where they said Islam causes terrorism. They said that Islam and it's history more than lends itself to this mentality. That the warlike and aggressive nature of Muhammad and his companions early on in the religion's history reverberate itself today and fuels the fires of terrorism.
They posted statistics which help their argument that many Muslims, even Westernized Muslims, openly support terrorism and state that it is allowed by Islam. Never did they state that Islam leads to terrorism, that the Arabs/Turks/Egyptians/(Fill in race here) are savages or are born terrorists. Never did they state that if you are Muslim you hate the West and want to kill innocents.
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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas |
10-18-2006, 03:45 PM | #97 (permalink) | ||
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10-18-2006, 04:42 PM | #98 (permalink) | |||
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10-18-2006, 05:01 PM | #99 (permalink) | |
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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas |
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10-18-2006, 05:44 PM | #100 (permalink) | |
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10-18-2006, 07:30 PM | #101 (permalink) | ||
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10-18-2006, 07:56 PM | #102 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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10-18-2006, 08:44 PM | #103 (permalink) | |
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10-19-2006, 06:40 AM | #104 (permalink) |
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I think all I've been saying (in this thread) is that the "small minority" of muslims that are extremist and supporters of terrorism isn't as small as the left lilkes to believe. Take the poll I posted about Indonesia and lets expand on it a bit. If 18,700,000 indonesian muslims support terrorist activities against the west in the name of islam, and only 1% actually do something about it, then thats 187,000 people willing to kill you because you live in the west. And thats just from one country. Although, I beleive that if you take 100 extremist, terrorist supporting muslims you'll find more than one willing to kill you. That 1% figure is very low.
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser Last edited by stevo; 10-19-2006 at 06:43 AM.. |
10-19-2006, 07:53 AM | #105 (permalink) | |
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But spreading the notion that Islam is evil does just that. Now, some of you might say I'm just denying reality in order to serve a purpose, but I disagree with that. It is not impossible to be a moderate, peaceful Muslim. Some of you believe that it's improbable, but we know it's not impossible. So us on the left have latched onto that notion, and are trying our best to make it more and more probable.
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10-19-2006, 08:10 AM | #106 (permalink) |
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Location: essex ma
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there are problems with the way in which this correlation is being discussed, however.
seaver is correct in that correlation is not causation. but it does not follow that all correlations are equal. there are stronger and weaker. and there are false ones. the logic behind correlations here is basically a syllogism. you know, the "all cretans are liars" thing (a=b, b=c, so a=c) the issue with this is simple: if the variables you introduce into the game are screwy, the results of the operation will not tell you anything about that--all a syllogism does is enable you process whatever variable you introduce in a manner that is (presumably) formally correct. among the problems with the definition of variable are: 1. you cannot equate the range of small dissident muslim groups that are the center of this contruct "terrorist" these days with islam as a whole and not end up with worthless correlations. 2. you cannot operate with no strict definition of what "terrorism" is and not end up with worthless correlations. there are others that have to do with the effects of the category "terrorist" in stripping all considerations of politics away, all considerations of often very complex contexts, of simplifying situations not because they are amenable to it, but because you have introduced a fucked up category and find yourself performing the implications of that category as such (and not as a descriptor involving "the world") on the first, i would hope that the problem is self-evident. on the second, everything turns on the notion of "terrorism"--which is self-evidently an empty signifier that is given such content as it has as a function of ideological framing devices---if it means anything, it means "actions the present american administration does not like." and its specific signified is filled in by political argument. so say you were to ask people in--o i dont know--indonesia, say the question "do you approve of the actions of al qeada?" the responses would not translate into "do you approve of terrorism" in any rational way simply because the question is not being interpreted that way in the survey--in other words, al qeada's actions mightbe understood elsewhere as political--that is about particular issues directed against reasonable targets with particular ends in mind--none of which follows from the notion "terrorism" this kind of problem seems to me so entirely self-evident that i find it cotinually baffling to read posts from folk, particularly on the right here, that attempt to gloss over them--i assume that if you thought about what you were saying, you would in all likelihood not say it, simply given the severe problems of defining the basic terms--and a syllogism is really a kind of stupid machine in that (again) it does not enable any evaluation of WHAT is being processed, it simply IS a process. given that, i tend to assume that the persuasive power of this kind of argument has to come from somewhere else--it is not reasonable analytically, it is flawed logically, etc.---and i find few good places to go in order to explain why these arguments are held up as viable. so this explains to some extent my reactions to this kind of argument and to this kind of thread. good to see folk putting their cards on the table above, tho, and beginning to nuance what they have been posting on this. thought i would do the same.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 10-19-2006 at 08:15 AM.. |
10-19-2006, 11:49 AM | #107 (permalink) | |||
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10-19-2006, 12:20 PM | #108 (permalink) |
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Location: Tallyfla
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Whats with those articles host? You can't actually believe them. I mean, you said yourself that islamofascism doesn't exist, yet here you go posting these articles. What gives?
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
10-19-2006, 12:35 PM | #109 (permalink) |
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Location: essex ma
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well stevo, the word "islamofascism" exists, obviously, because you like to use it and i dont think you just made it up.
and since you use the word, i would assume that it has some organizing power for you, if not much in the way of explanatory power. but that does not mean that the phenomenon you organize by using this word actually exists in the world---only in the way you stage the world as you use the category to organize it. ideological categories are like that--this is how the operate, and this is what they are (they are how they operate) that help? of course, i am not speaking for host here---i dont think we are pursuing the same kind of argument in this context.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
10-19-2006, 12:57 PM | #110 (permalink) | |
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
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10-19-2006, 11:47 PM | #111 (permalink) | ||||||||||||||
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I document the reporting of Richard Pipes as a "neocon", in 1981, <b>and the "Team B", "op" that was a predecessor of the more recent neocon effort to challenge and manipulate CIA intelligence about Iraqi WMD....in order to exaggerate the threat of the Soviet Union in the late 70's and early 80'a....</b> Consider that much of the influence on your opinions about islam and about the islamic "threat", comes from the hyperactive islamophobe, Daniel Pipes, son of Richard Pipes, and, a Bush "recess appointee" who is as much of a belligerant and as lacking as a diplomat, as John Bolton. It amazes me that so many folks who embrace the politics to the right of the center, also embrace the "thinking" of these militarist neocon nutcases....what have they been "right" about, compared to what their meddling has cost the US, during the past 30 years. Brzesinksi's decisions in countering the Soviets, via Afghanistan, place him squarely....in the late 70's, in the neocon "camp". <b>Consider that, as Daniel Pipes is the son of Richard, your "targeting" of militant islam is the "son" of your own neocon forebearer's short sighted, and failed strategy....you're now "very concerned" by the "blow back" of the CIA brainwashing of young central Asian and middle eastern muslims, over at least the past 30 nearly years..... the implication is that your "belief system", and you're GWOT "leaders", are all "rubbing one off", in a "circle jerk" that is the "fruit" of the failed "psy-ops" that you now clamor for even more of, because your own neocon polluted government stays "on message" (the "caliphate" ...from spain to indonesia....bullshit...) to perpetually tweak your fears....</b> Quote:
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10-20-2006, 04:11 AM | #112 (permalink) | ||
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touche
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10-24-2006, 12:25 PM | #113 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-10-23-voa23.cfm
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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10-24-2006, 12:52 PM | #114 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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I heard it on the news earlier.
The two prisoners were released a month early from the 5 year sentence they received for hiding one of the Bali bombers after the attack. The three bombers are in death row. I can understand the anger of relatives of those killed in the Bali attack, but I am more impressed that the Indonesian government has stepped up there anti-terrorism effort, having "arrested and jailed more than 300 Muslim militants" since the attack.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
10-24-2006, 01:11 PM | #115 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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10-24-2006, 01:20 PM | #116 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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Here is a Wash Post article:
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Progress is being made in Indonesia, particularly under the new government, but obviously not as quicky as anyone would hope and continued criticism likes yours is appropriate as long as you dont generalize about the vast majority of over 1 billion muslims there that are not perpetrating or supporting violence or terrorism.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 10-24-2006 at 01:25 PM.. |
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10-24-2006, 05:21 PM | #117 (permalink) | |
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Though I did find this sort of ironic... and the country's 2003 anti-terrorism legislation that allows for detention without trial
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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10-24-2006, 07:13 PM | #118 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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I thought the "detention without trial" was ironic as well, but then again, Indonesia doesnt have 200+ years experience with Constitutional law.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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10-24-2006, 09:24 PM | #119 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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I hear if you drape yourself in the constitution you become bullet proof and terrorists see the error of their ways.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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10-24-2006, 10:01 PM | #120 (permalink) | |
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In an update to the following thread: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...38#post2142738 I provide information for "the rest of us", folks who see only politcally motivated propaganda intended mostly to terrorize and control the American electorate, and misleading....... and at times, contradictory bullshit from our government and our leaders....which they attempt to pass off on us "truth", as justification for what they do and say. If I were an Indonesian leader, I would not only be reluctant to cooperate in the GWOT with the US, I would distance my country from the US "effort". I'm an American....because of what our leaders seem to want me to "know", I know less, each time they "release" new info on the "progress" in the GWOT, than I knew before: Last edited by host; 10-24-2006 at 10:27 PM.. |
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