![]() |
![]() |
#1 (permalink) | |
Addict
|
The effectiveness of the War on Terror
A new report created jointly by all 16 agencies in the US Intelligence Community states in no uncertain terms that American intervention in Iraq has exacerbated, not mitigated, the threat of radical Islamic terrorism that the US now faces.
I'll include the article for those who'd like to see it, but it's not critical that you read the whole thing. Quote:
I think this report gets to the heart of the problem with our conduct in the 'war on terror' and the moral discourse that accompanies it. Namely, morality is not the most salient issue here; rather, we should be examining whether the strategies we employ are actually accomplishing what we set out to achieve. If your understanding of the here and now is in any way rooted in reality, you will have to admit that they are not. A similar illogic seemed to be at work during the recent crisis in Lebanon. Israel and her supporters continually referred to Hizbullah's provocation of the conflict. They invoked the moral right to respond in self-defense. Some on this board even point to the differences between Israeli society - relatively open, secular, and free - and the draconian values of Hizbullah, and use this aside as an incomprehensible justification for the decision to go to war. None of these invocations of moral superiority (it is not at the moment necessary to evaluate their own validity) are of any real value in the debate over whether a particular method of addressing the problem of terrorism is a good one. What should be our main concern is whether the methods we use are working, and whether they even stand a chance of working; we should be discussing whether the mechanisms by which the Global War on Terror proposes to make us safer truly represent solutions to our vulnerability or whether they are fantasies constructed from whole cloth, strategies doomed to fail because they do not reflect a real understanding of terrorist activity, how it operates, and where it comes from. Is it unclear to anyone that our current strategy falls squarely into the latter category? |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#2 (permalink) |
Artist of Life
|
Not really surprising. You cannot fight a guerrilla war against an enemy who is willing to absorb massive casualities. It happened in Vietnam, and its happening again. Why the Bush administration thought they could effectively combat an idea is beyond me.
|
![]() |
![]() |
#3 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
|
Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
#4 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
|
I recently move to North Carolina. There was a hornet nest in a tree in my back yard. Generally the hornets went about their hornet business and did not bother us. When I started removing the nest and killing the hornets, they got pissed off, and focused their attention on attacking and defending thier nest.
I could have left the nest alone, and prayed that my family would not be harmed by the hornets, but I did not want to take that risk. And, yes during the process of ridding my yard of hornets they all banded together and during those moments the risk of getting stung was highest. But now the risk is minimal. We did not need a report to tell us that if we go to war, enemy activity/recruitment/etc. will go up during the war. We can not measure sucess or failure until after the war.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
|
I think the point was, there was no threat from Iraq. They were not a hornet's nest any more than say, Darfur or Somalia is a hornet's nest.
Afghanistan was where the real hornet's nest lay and resources were shifted before the job was finished.
__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
|
The War on Terror has been a resounding success!
People who have committed no crimes are more willing than ever to be detained and searched without asking uncomfortable questions. Neighbors will turn in neighbors for being different or having productive hobbies. By recent polls a large portion of Americans think it's okay to imprison people indefinitely and torture them for no reason other than the jackbooted thugs wanna. Resounding success, I say. Much more effective than the War on Drugs. So limited in scope the WoD. Can't just redefine anything you don't like as a drug all willy-nilly.
__________________
Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
|
Quote:
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#8 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
|
Quote:
This is getting bizarre. What was I talking about again? |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#11 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
|
the conclusions reached in this nie report are not a surprise--anyone willing to look has been able to see that this is the case, even through the distorted lens of tightly controlled press access and the consistent attempts to market this debacle in iraq so that it serves some political advantage for the band of incompetents who currently occupy the white house.
the invasion of iraq--the wholesale debacle that has been the occupation of iraq--the civil war the americans have brought to the country they claimed to be liberating--the american actions during the israeli attack o lebanon--how these general factors would combine to galvanize armed political opposition to the united states is not rocket science. even if you supported the iraq war on geopolitical grounds and saw in the administration's rationales nothing more than political expedients, you would still have to be appalled at the magnitude of the disaster this administration has engineered for all of us. maybe i can see why metaphors of a hornet's nest come to mind. the bush administration appears to have its collective head shoved well into one. and if you live in the united states, you too are in the place dumped on you by the ridiculous policies of this administration. sometimes i wonder how long it will take for the u.s. to work its way out from under the effects of these people. i suspect it will take a long time.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 (permalink) | |
Addict
Location: Nottingham, England
|
Quote:
One of the reasons more bombings and shootings etc are taking place is the whole Iraq farce as acted as a massive recuiting call to so many people. It was seen as a war on a religon, to grab oil and as a way to impose a puppet leader on a unfriendly country. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#13 (permalink) |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
|
This war is very effective in taking away rights, making money for the right people, and getting us further and further into debt.
The way I see it, we've lost. By the end of this war and the War in Iraq (that has nothing to do with this one), our entire paycheck will go to taxes to pay the debts we owe other countries, primarily China and Saudi. Sad, 5 years ago we had the world coming together offering us help and wanting to work and build peace and in those 5 years we went from that to being the most hated, feared, antagonistic and most bumbling country.
__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
![]() |
![]() |
#15 (permalink) | |
Addict
|
Quote:
1) The idea that we're "creating" terrorists. Namely, a destructive war and now a lengthy and unpopular occupation have naturally produced resistance. Various notions about a Zionist-Crusader conspiracy or simple oil politics are compelling to some Iraqis, who at any rate are not inclined to believe that the Americans are there out of altruism for their sake. None of this should be hard to understand; in principle, suspicion of those who wield power is a deeply American value. 2) Security vacuum. With the fall of the sovereign Iraqi state, armed groups have emerged to fill the vacuum. They have appeared largely along sectarian lines, as these identities were always strongest, although they were mostly subsumed under the thumb of the pre-2003 state. Naturally, they now vie for power with each other, and with coalition occupation forces. 3) Foreign influence. A post-Saddam Iraq has had far weaker borders, and is far more vulnerable to Iran, which finances and backs Shi'a militias in an attempt to exert some control over the country. The agreement that was forged between Zarqawi and al-Qaeda is a similar case. In each case, 'terror' was able to come to Iraq because of conditions created by the invasion. 4) Global anti-Americanism. The US-led invasion has inflamed anti-American sentiments worldwide. Muslims in particular do not find any of the justifications cited by the administration as plausible. 9/11 was invoked but was unrelated. WMDs were invoked but never found. Democracy is actually something most Arabs want in some form, but they do not see the US as a serious advocate of democracy, given not only the experience of the Hamas government but also in light of the historical record (the coup of 1953; US support for Saudi Arabia and other autocratic states; a general preference for stability over democracy). Rather, they see the US as interested only in friendly governments that will forestall popular pressures and deliver American-Israeli security guarantees while demanding nothing in return. The delegitimization of the US (via a moral discourse of its own creation) has radicalized some populations and fueled support for those who wish us harm. As an additional issue, do you see how your conflation of a variety of phenomena under the banner of 'terrorist activity' has clouded your understanding of the issues? |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#16 (permalink) | |
spudly
Location: Ellay
|
Quote:
Your analogy only goes so far, because butterflies who see what happens to hornets don't become hornets themselves and attack you.
__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#17 (permalink) | |
Banned
Location: You're kidding, right?
|
Quote:
And before you answer, please remember that there were terrorist training camps in Iraq, and Saddam, using money from the corrupt oil-for-food program, was paying the families of suicide bombers. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#18 (permalink) | ||
Artist of Life
|
Quote:
Quote:
![]() Last edited by Ch'i; 09-24-2006 at 11:39 AM.. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
#19 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
|
You know there are many angles to look at this from but one I have to guess no one else has thought of yet (though I haven't read the thread that closesly).
Are these the same intelligence agencies who had definate proof of WMD's in Iraq? Mind you of course it was a classified report, isn't quoted, and this was published by the NYT's (of course) so we are obviously getting only one side of the story.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
![]() |
![]() |
#20 (permalink) | ||
spudly
Location: Ellay
|
Quote:
The argument that I think you're advancing (apologies if I've misunderstood) is the same one we hear from the White House: ithe alternative to supporting x specific policy on torture/wiretapping/withdrawal/whatever is to do nothing and let terrorists have their way with us. This is patently ridiculous and tiresome. There are plenty of other solutions that could be tried. We have more choices than just this or nothing. Quote:
__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam Last edited by ubertuber; 09-24-2006 at 01:57 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
||
![]() |
![]() |
#21 (permalink) | ||
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
|
Quote:
![]() Quote:
I'm too lazy to hunt for the article right now. I'll leave it for host to find. ![]() Last edited by ratbastid; 09-24-2006 at 02:00 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
||
![]() |
![]() |
#22 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
|
Quote:
While the story itself is designed to paint a 'the sky is falling' picture (it is the NYT's after all) even if it were 100% accurate I am not concerned as I don't view this conflict as USA vrs Al Queda but a cultural conflict of Western Civ vrs Radical Islam. Perhaps Iraq accelerated the process and thats a good thing. As I view the upcoming conflict inevitable, it is far better to face it now when we have by far the technological superiority than later. When you look around the worlds hot spots and see how many are 'jihads' its pretty clear that had we never gone into Iraq radical Islam would still be committing acts of terrorism all over. It is also my belief that the waffling, wavering, and whining of the left is going to do far more to embolden our enemies than a military action. If the left succeeds and gets us to pull out of iraq prematurely it will do far more to further the cause of radical islam then a steadfast resolve. We are there now, why doesn't matter, to lose is unthinkable from a long term point of view. The terrorists can’t win in Iraq without your support. Perhaps that is the one reason to elect a democrat (provided they are sane) as suddenly the press would find that not all is bleak in Iraq, and perhaps some of the vitriolic nonsense can be put away for the good of the future of our country and our way of life.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#23 (permalink) | |||
Banned
|
Quote:
<a href="http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:2QBjG5HMIpMJ:www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/stories/2006/09/11/0912iraq.html+ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/stories/2006/09/11/0912iraq.html&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1">History will show that the U.S. government terrified its own citizens into supporting the invasion of Iraq.</a> The "left" didn't cause the loss of US determination to "stay the course" in Vietnam, and it won't be responsible for the impending US military "cut 'n run" from Iraq. The hard reality "on the ground"......doomed our participation in both conflicts. Too many of the folks who we fought to "free" were killed in both conflicts, and enough of our troops die without an "improvement" in the level of reistance to US military presence to justify continuing. The Vietnam war "ended" after the 1968 Tet Offensive, simultaneous, Lunar New Year attacks launched against US and ARVN troops in every Vietnamese [rovinicial capital, including an attack that breached the perimeter of the US Embassy compound in Saigon, although unsuccessful, tactically, exposed the false myth of "progress on the ground", just as it is exposed as false today, in Iraq and in Afghanistan. The military adventures of the Bush admin., even if they are temporarily, and even more disastorously revived in an offensive against Iran, have failed, and it ain't the fault of "the left", Ustwo. Rhe failure is a failure to accomplish irrational objectives, just as in Vietnam. Your solution is probably to project enough "firepower" to kill everyone who we've tried to "democratize", and I wish you luck with that. I was wondering Ustwo, if you might be fluent in this senator's dialect. He seems to be on the "other side", too. Please translate, into Amurrkin... <a href="http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1159109225870&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home">"Attacks here at home stopped when we started fighting Al Qaeda where they live, rather than responding after they hit," McConnell said in a statement.</a> .....there were no al-Qaeda living in Iraq before the US invasion and occupation, so....how did our leaders know to "[start] fighting Al Qaeda where they live" ....in Iraq ? it seems like face saving, BS propaganda from Mitch McConnell that will make it more difficult for the new propaganda that Jim Baker will soon be launching, to justify the withdrawal of US forces from Baghdad, after the current period of sacrificing more of our troops lives there, for the expediency of the current politcal campaign, only to withdraw when Baker's "team" dreams up a way to spin it properly, and remove the issue of the illegal, pointless, lost war in Iraq, from the 2008 election "warm up" period: Quote:
Quote:
mortuary, might be the way to drive the point of the pointlessness of all of illegal war, "home" to the children of the folks who didn't even "get it", after 58,000 coffins came home from Vietnam. Last edited by host; 09-24-2006 at 04:45 PM.. |
|||
![]() |
![]() |
#24 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
|
Quote:
If you want all military action defined by Vietnam with the assumption that victory is impossible thats your opinion. I do not share it.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#25 (permalink) | |
spudly
Location: Ellay
|
Quote:
__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#26 (permalink) | |
Addict
|
Quote:
That, massive as the Israeli bombardment of Lebanon was, that it would have succeeded had they only done more than 'turn the clock back by 20 years'? I fail to see how these courses of action would improve the outcomes of our fight, unless you are prepared to start talking about wholesale slaughter on a scale not seen since World War II. I am not. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#27 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
|
Quote:
I didn't even know there was a debate on this issue, even my over the top liberal history teacher in highschool (great guy though and open about his political leanings) knew this. For example the Tet offensive is a very good example of how the press and anti-war movement used what was really a great victory and turned it into a defeat. It was a turning point in the war, a turning point in public opinion, not in military reality. Huge mistakes were made in Vietnam in how the war was conducted, but it wasn't the NVA that kicked us out.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#28 (permalink) |
spudly
Location: Ellay
|
Ah... I think I misunderstood you before. You are contending that the left is a danger to victory through public opinion? I conflated that with the "provided comfort to enemies" that I've heard on other occasions.
BTW, there are indeed several good books about the Vietnam war... LOL I've read quite a few of them.
__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam |
![]() |
![]() |
#29 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
|
Quote:
![]() While there are some members of the left who have tried to do that sort of thing they tend to be the fringe of the lunatic fringe, though something like what Jane Fonda did should have been treason.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#30 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Fort Worth, TX
|
The constant comparisons to Vietnam have been around since our first "defeat" in Iraq. That "defeat" started the whole quagmire question... what instance are we talking about? The sandstorm... that alone told me that the MSM were drooling over a loss in Iraq.
Vietnam and Iraq are completely different. One sign is the death tolls alone. 2,500 in over 3 years in Iraq, where in Vietnam it was in the tens of thousands. Another is the moral of the troops. We have over 90% voluntary re-enlistment rate, those are the people who were not stop-gapped. We also had the highest enlistment numbers since the 90s just recently, higher than post-9/11. Yes, we're fighting a guerilla war. Yes, we're fighting an enemy who is supplied almost entirely from foreign countries. No, the majority of the insurgents are not native to the region as in Vietnam. No, our military are not tied down in what is available to attack or not. Johnson bragged that they couldn't bomb an outhouse without his permission, now 2nd Lt.'s can call in air strikes if needed. No, the moral of the troops are not low. You don't see any troop anti-war protests, or at least more than a few people total. No, there are no threats to air superiority. No, there are no pitched battles anymore... they are whiped out everytime they stand and fight. In Vietnam every battle was a true fight.
__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas |
![]() |
![]() |
#32 (permalink) | |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
|
Quote:
As for the War on Terror....... when we start doing something to stop the flood of illegals into this country (step number one would be to ENFORCE the employment laws that state you need to be a legal in this country to get hired......) then I may start believing Bush is serious about this war and not just making the right people rich and selling out the rest of the country. Until we start enforcing immigration, Bush will be nothing but a joke and a puppet to the rich, IMO.
__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#33 (permalink) | |
Banned
|
pan, the internets are sprinkled with reports that James Baker is "the fixer" appointed to work below the radar, to devise a plan to "cut n' run", soon enough to contain the political fallout of the Iraq disaster, well before the 2008 election.
How many more American troops have to die in Iraq for this failed bullshit? It's too dangerous, in the 4th year of this disaster....for the "fixers" on their "fact finding" mission, to even tour the capital city, let alone the country. I saw one of those "Never forget 9/11" posters covering the entire inside of the back window of a pickup truck, yesterday, and I thought, "how many "never forget "Pearl Harbor" signs were around in December, 1946? My guess is, none! It's so bad in Baghdad, that nine of the 10 members of Baker's ISG who visited there for 3-1/2 days, did not venture out of the "greenzone", except for former military orfficer and senator, Charles Robb: Quote:
We've already seen that movie, Pan....and there is no better response to the hypocrisy and shallow political expediency that is being traded for the life of at least one of our soldiers, every fucking day....in a politcally motivated holding action, for a "cause" that was lost before it started.......until "the fixer" Baker, can come up with the right "spin" to contain the political fallout. I don't know any beter comparison to this new assault on our trust, than Kerry's 35 year old question....do you? |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#34 (permalink) | ||
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
|
Quote:
Quote:
Now: is it treason if I work or speak to end the mess over there and bring them home? I don't see how that could be. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
#35 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
|
wow...
the potted "history" of vietnam provided by ustwo above has almost nothing to do with history as it pertains to the vietnam war, but much to do with the history of contemporary far right politics---it is the stuff of rambo books, the literature of rightwing extremist consolation, the kind of horseshit that legitimated (and legitimates, apparently) the repetition of arguments made by the german extreme right after world war 1--the argument that defeat is impossible--instead "we" were stabbed in the back, or "fought with one arm behind tied behind us"---the Heroic War Effort was not undermined by incompetence of command of attrition or anything else--the Heroic War Effort was undermined by dissent, by opposition to the war---which functioned to divide the "general will"--that is the fantasy nationalist extremists almost invariably revert to when push to explain what they imagine the nation to be--the nation is a fiction used to stage the illusion of a connection between individual will and collective action. from this viewpoint, irrational though it is, divisions of the will are a fundamental danger. there is no more antidemocratic dimension of contemporary radical nationalism in america than this one. the rightwing extremist pseudo-history of vietnam is a fundamental template for understanding the ideology as a whole. unable to confront the reality of military defeat in vietnam, unable to confront the myriad problems of legitimacy of that war, frightened by the emergence of a strong, public left, the militia-right fashioned a counterhistory of vietnam that was in essence nothing other than the story of the victimization of the far right by its Other---that Other was the opposition to the war---the functions of this literature of consolation were multiple--but you can see some of them as structuring claims made by conservative ideology since the clinton period: 1. the literature of consolation posits the extreme right as "real americans" and the left as an internal Other 2. the left is also everywhere a persecuting Other 3. as a Persecuting Other, the Left is undifferentiated in this paranoid fantasyland--the Left is everyone and everything that appears threatening to the far right--the mythology of the right transposes political oppositon to the war in vietnam onto a threats to the identity of rightwing extremists as human beings. the Left is everywhere and nowhere, all powerful and powerless, etc etc: you've seen the same construction over and over again being floated in the context of the "war on terrorism" 4. by setting up the left as a Persecuting Other, the radical nationalist psuedo-history of vietnam functions to draw a line separating Us from Them. the pseudo-history of vietnam is a useful index if you want to get an idea of just how far to the right populist conservatism shifted during the clinton period. this was the stuff of the militia movement prior to the oklahoma city bombing---the stuff of the lunatic fringe of the right that has migrated to the center of populist conservatism. it could be discussed in the context of this thread is the assumption is that this pseudo-history has nothing to do with vietnam and everything to do with the contemporary right. there is no point--or there would be no point--in attempting to have a coherent discussion about the actual history of the vietnam war on the basis of this radical nationalist pseudo-history because one of its primary functions is to erase that actual history. rather, a discussion could run to other areas: like the fabrication of this fiction the reagan administration called "teh vietnam syndrome" in the context of which versions of this rightwing extremist pseudo-history were floated as if they were legitimate in the interest of enabling "us" to once again "feel good about america..."
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
![]() |
![]() |
#36 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
|
Bush is already writing his history of Iraq, in a way that certainly seems to me to demostrate a callous disregard of the cost of his folly.
In an interview with Wolf Blitzer: Quote:
... Just a comma in history????
__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 09-25-2006 at 07:26 AM.. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#37 (permalink) |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
|
Yeah, because, y'see, there's a will for democracy. And that's what it's always been about--bringing democracy to those poor underdemocratized Iraqis. Damn the cost! We've brought about (for however many months it will turn out to stay stable) a government of part of the people, for some of the people, and by a few of the people, just like at home!
Heh, heh. |
![]() |
![]() |
#38 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
|
Quote:
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#39 (permalink) | |||||||
Banned
|
Quote:
Quote:
....and see if this does not sound familiar....the young Sadr of today, acting in the tradition of his ancestor. Are "our leaders" really as blinded and stupid as this shows them to be? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||||||
![]() |
![]() |
#40 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
|
Any chance we could change the 'post the article rule' to 'post the link if the article is over a certain length' rule?
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
![]() |
Tags |
effectiveness, terror, war |
|
|