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View Poll Results: Does voting potential of rapture believers drive U.S. environmental & foreign policy? | |||
Not at all. |
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8 | 22.86% |
It is just a coincidence. |
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3 | 8.57% |
Yes, but not to the extent outlined in the OP |
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11 | 31.43% |
Christian fundamentalists have gained control of U.S. policy. |
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17 | 48.57% |
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll |
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#1 (permalink) | ||||||||
Banned
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Christian Fundy effect on official policy: Israel, Global Warming, Stem Cell, Schiavo
Remember the spectacle, last year, of the president and almost exclusively, the republican members of the house and senate, converging on Washington in the middle of the night....on a weekend...to pass and sign legislation that targeted the fate of one brain dead woman, Terri Schiavo?
Remember when U.S. presidents worked tirelessly to broker peace between Israel and it's neighbors in the middle east? Consider the first veto of Mr. Bush's presidency....ending the longest period in history where a sitting president did not veto a single bill.....Bush's first veto was to prevent the passage of a bill that would have overturned a ban on government funding of stem cell research. Consider the present U.S. government environmental protection and global warming policy, vs. the sharp contrast of former V.P. Al Gore's efforts that promote totally opposite policies on these issues. I believe that it does not matter what Bush, Cheney, Rove, Frist, or Hastert, actually believe in their hearts. It seems to me that they have channeled and mined the political support of folks possessed with what passes for "sound" biblical interpretation, today in America's heartland. This politcal "base" includes a signifigant minority (as high as 40 percent of total voters) of adult Americans who tend to vote in disproportionally high numbers.....always for republican candidates who "share" their "values". If your politics are not driven by your religious belief in an impending "rapture", are you comfortable with the coincidence of how closely your opinions match those of Christian fundamentalists? If I wasn't living in these times where this is actually happening, I could never imagine that the votes of folks who believe that Israel must occupy all of the land that the Israelites held in the middle east in biblical history, so that a series of events can transpire that will incinerate nearly all Israelis and their opposing neighbors, so that the faithful can suddenly and imminently be "raptured", right out of their clothing...up into heaven, to sit for eternity, at the right hand of God.....could have such a profound and damaging influence on the makeup of all three of our federal branches of government, now. When I sit in our sunday church service, or at the holiday dinner table with my wife and her family, I am the sole person in those gatherings who is not comforted by an unquestioning belief in the certainty of the soon to come rapture. You may reflexively dismiss all of this, but it already effects the quality of the air you breathe, the water you drink, and you and your childrens' future. Is this agenda even "American"? Is it any different from the beliefs that cause the effects of fundamentalist Islamic government? If you observe the near total support in U.S. government, media, and society, for Israel's current military response in the middle east this month, even in it's disproportionate harshness, and the present environmental and energy policy (or non-policy) of the U.S. government, if you don't agree that it is driven by Christian fundamentalist political influence, what do you think drives both of these policies....considering that both have changed so much since 2000? Quote:
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#2 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Looking at the big picture, I think it is obvious that current decision making at the top levels of the US government are based, at least in part, on religous dogmatic teachings that have no place in the political process. Decision making based on religous clairvoiance, or knowledge of the religous future, is not only damning to the country, but is evidence of psychosis. Wasn't it Martin Luther, father of modern Protestantism, who said that if he knew God was coming tomorrow, I'd plant a tree today?
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#3 (permalink) |
will always be an Alyson Hanniganite
Location: In the dust of the archives
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Biased much?
Hell, I'm an athiest and I furl a brow over "Rapture Believers" and "Fundys". I do, of course use those terms, but not when trying to conduct a poll. "Gee...which way does he expect it to go"? "Excuse me Ma'am...which do you prefer? The taste of this delightfully refreshing carbonated softdrink...or the putrid, fetid, vile taste of this carbonated sewage waste?"
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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt. |
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#4 (permalink) | |
Banned
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Bill O'Rights, I am sorry that I've done such a poor job of concealing my incredulity and outrage. I live in the midst of this, as I described in the OP.
IMO, there are two groups who share the same "politics". One has the advantage that the other is in denial of the extent of the political influence that the former has amassed, ironically, over issues that both factions have such similar opinions about. Quote:
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#5 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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Um.. so a person who leads the country according to his own morals means the loony fringe is leading the country?
I'm sorry, but you seriously need to research some of the groups you put out there. I've been to the Officer's Christian Fellowship, as well as their brother group Fellowship of Christian Athletes. None of them teach the Rapture, none of them teach how abortion is wrong, they don't do anything harmful to anyone. You know what they DO do? they support family members of those wounded or killed in battle. They support families of members who's parents fall ill, are unemployed, etc. And on their meetings they simply have a good time, talk a little about religion, and organize fundraisers for the community. OH THE SKY IS FALLING! Sorry Host, but you must come to realize that close to 90% of the US is religious. And those religious people more often than not follow their beliefs on what is wrong and right. And those beliefs are more often than not carried into the ballot box. I'm sorry I dont buy your argument that global warming, an unstable Middle East, etc., are all because a bunch of radicals are trying to bring about the apocalypse. Last edited by Seaver; 07-25-2006 at 12:28 PM.. |
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#6 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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seaver:
your posts no. 5 really does not make sense: either (1) christianity encompasses a wide range of beliefs, most of which have little contact with those of protestant fundamentalist groups that politically situate themselves on the extreme right or (2) all christians endorse the set of assumptions particular to fundamentalist protestant groups that politically situate themselves on the extreme right. you post seems to argue that both are true at once. both cant be. whch is it, then?
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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#7 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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The truth is in the strength of beliefs. While almost any Jew, Christian, or Muslim believes by their faith that there will be and end time, to state that these groups are actively attempting to force the apocolypse is simply redicoulous. MAYBE there are a fringe group out there, but to claim they hold sway over the president belongs in paranoia. So back to your question... the truth is in the scale. There are many different teachings in the Torah, Bible, and Qur'an. However not everyone stresses the same points. While the beliefs will be extremely similar in the vas amount of cases, using the same references, which are stressed are different. So I'm changing your statement because they're not what was intended. (1) Christianity encompasses a wide range of belifs, most of these groups have little or no contact with fundamentalists group that pray for the apocolypse, and (2) most people decide their stance on issues based on what they think is morally right. These morals are often decided by their religion. I dont get why you insist on posting "extreme right" so often, I'd like to see the number of liberal politicians who do not actively proclaim their religion. |
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#8 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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seaver--thanks---i took your earlier post as implying that to be a christian meant agreeing with fundamentalist protestant positions--which is simply wrong.
you can start almost anywhere and find that fundamentalist protestants are quite strange within christianity--from the assumption that the bible is literally true, through the "end times" nonsense, through the relation between religious and political beliefs. i think it is naive to assume that christianity has any monopoly on people's ethics--i think deeply religious people might prefer to think that is true--but it really isnt. you might think about the enormous phenomenon that is the catholic church in america, its problematic relations with rome, the huge diversity of political positions elaborated in/through catholicism directly and indirectly--you cant really say much of anything about catholics being of one mind politically about anything--nor can you say that the ways catholics map their religious beliefs onto politics is necessarily direct. i emphasize extreme right politics when i refer to fundamentalist protestant groups because--well---it's true. i dont use it to refer to all of christianity because that would be stupid.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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#9 (permalink) | |
Deja Moo
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
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#10 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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Roach, I'm not saying that religion has a monopoly on morals. As many of my personal moral beliefs are in staunch opposition to my religion (pre-marital sex, homosexuality, etc).
That is why I formed my statement the way I did. Quote:
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#11 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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seaver: if that's true, then it would follow that one can oppose the influence of a particular sector of christianity over public life and not be saying anything about the general relaton of religion--or even of christianity as a whole--to politics. nor would the argument speak to any general question of morality/ethics and their relations to politics. the op was not "how horrible it is that christians have any role on government" but rather posed questions about the (apparent) public acceptance of positions drawn from a very narrow range of christian beliefs--one that happens to work as part of the populist coalition that is the conservative mass base--that is fundamentalist or evangelical protestant churches.
no time at the moment for more.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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#12 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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I belive (religously) that the population of the earth should be reduced by roughly 1000 times. If I were to become president, and I formulate all my decisions starting with the question, "How will this reduce the population of the eart?", how good of a president would I be? Pretty crappy?
Religion is good beans so long as one uses it responsibly. Opening the good book every time a decision needs to be made isn't just irresponsible, it's a theocracy. We don't live in a theocracy (or at elast we aren't supposed to). The idea is that the state is run by those that have the best interest of all people in mind, and that one of the best interests of the people is to have free religion. While Christianity (all religions, really) come with a set of nifty morals, the broader consideration should always be made. Imagine that you are a Muslim in a country rules by Christians who only rule in favor of Christianity. Imagine that you are a Christian in a country rulsed by Muslims that base all decisions on Islam. The fact that religion is so varied alone should make it obvious that decision making on a federal scale is absurd. WWJD should not be a t-shirt the President should wear, or a philosophy he should follow (though it'd be better than what he's doing now...I doubt Jesus would have invaded Iraq). What wouldn't Jesus do? |
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#13 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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According to you, Israel, JINSA and the Jews run American foreign policy.
Now you're saying the fundamentalist Christians run American foreign policy. Not a big religion guy, are you host? |
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#14 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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#15 (permalink) | |||||||||
Banned
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http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...t=97588&page=3 I'm trying to figure out what the fuck is behind what I see as going "terribly wrong" in my country, powerclown. By posting here, I'm sharing what I've found.....kind of thinking "out loud".....displaying some things that shape "what I think I know..." I probably don't know as much as most other people. If you don't want to participate in a discussion with me, that's fine, but please don't come here and post like you did above..... It isn't me who is posting "on the fringe" ideas, powerclown. The president has the "on the fringe" title locked up....his appointments demonstrate that he owns that distinction. We're closer to six years into this freakish Bush era, than we are to five, and there's enough of a track record showing, to support my point: Remember the first man appointed by Bush, before he picked Jerry Bremer, to run the Provisional Authority in post invasion Iraq? It was JINSA Jake Garner: Quote:
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If nothing else, this seems a strategy that ignores the reality that 30 percent of the world's petroleum comes from that region, and that the U.S. has never been more dependent on an uninterrupted supply of imported petroleum, than it seems to be today. I think that we in the U.S. are going to experience fuel shortages and declining dollar purchasing power, much sooner than we recognize, because of these misguided religious influences on our government. The first step to possibly reversing the disproportionate and harmful religious influence/Israeli lobby is to identify it, and raise awareness about these influences that seem to be counter to our national self interests. Last edited by host; 07-26-2006 at 01:11 AM.. |
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#16 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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In America, you have a majority of people who are white and Christian. You are inevitably going to get political involvement and influence from these people. What I question, though, is the immediate leap to radicalizing these people's influence and motives. Isn't there such thing as moderate, responsible, reasonable Christians? Why are all religious people (who run the entire spectrum of orthodoxy and observance) automatically branded as Taliban-like, fire-breathing radicals? Is it the phenomenon of internet communication? Is it the high-profile idiocy of certain irresponsible, egomanical televangelists?
Sorry I don't see the merit of recklessly and arbitrarily bouncing around in an attempt to study the situation - from religion to religion - from event to event - from issue to issue. Also, I believe that framing complex issues in highly emotional and incendiary language only clouds the issue, promotes divisiveness, closes people's minds, and pushes them further away from the truth - or at least a civil conversation. ---- PHILADELPHIA: The Surprising Spectrum of Evangelicals By Paul Nussbaum Staff Writer THE PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER PHILADELPHIA (June 19, 2005)--The only bumper sticker on the Rev. Ted Haggard's red pickup truck proclaims: Vote for Pedro. Haggard, founder and senior minister of the 11,000-member New Life Church in Colorado Springs, is president of the National Association of Evangelicals. Pedro is Pedro Sanchez, the inscrutable candidate for class president in the screwball comedy movie Napoleon Dynamite. This is not the politics usually associated with evangelical Christians. Frequently portrayed as uniformly reactionary or fundamentalist, evangelicals - drawing increased attention because of their pivotal role in the 2004 election - are actually an amalgam of unpredictable, sometimes contradictory, strains of Christianity across a broad spectrum of the nation. And many evangelicals are interested in far more than the hot-button issues of abortion and homosexual marriage often used to define them. Evangelicals have been active in seeking increased aid for Africa, fighting poverty, battling the traffic in sex slaves, and supporting efforts to reduce global warming. Evangelicals are not just Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and George W. Bush. They are also Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton and the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. And Haggard. And the Rev. Rick Warren, the California preacher who wrote The Purpose Driven Life, which has sold 23 million copies since 2002. And Ron Sider, founder of Evangelicals for Social Action in Wynnewood. "Evangelical does not mean any specific political ideology," said Haggard, a conservative who talks regularly with President Bush and met earlier this month in Washington with British Prime Minister Tony Blair. "I think the power base is shifting," said Haggard, who sees a new generation of leaders less bombastic and more socially active than televangelists such as Falwell and Robertson. "We think differently than the previous generation, the 1980s Moral Majority crowd." Most Americans consider religion an important part of their lives (83 percent say it is "very" or "fairly" important). But there is no consensus, even among evangelicals, on how to translate faith into action. "The vast majority in the evangelical center are regularly embarrassed by what Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson say, but they don't go around issuing press releases attacking them," said Sider, author of Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger. The National Association of Evangelicals, which represents 30 million evangelicals, last year adopted a new manifesto for social engagement, For the Health of the Nation: An Evangelical Call to Civic Responsibility, cowritten by Sider. In it, the group spells out a broad agenda: "To protect the vulnerable and poor, to guard the sanctity of human life, to further racial reconciliation and justice, to renew the family, to care for creation, and to promote justice, freedom and peace." "God measures societies by how they treat the people at the bottom," the document states. Broadly defined, evangelicals are Christians who have had a personal or "born-again" religious conversion, believe the Bible is the word of God, and believe in spreading their faith. (The term comes from Greek; to "evangelize" means to preach the gospel.) The term is typically applied to Protestants. Millions of Americans fit the definition, although estimates vary on exactly how many. Forty-two percent of Americans described themselves as evangelical Christians in a Gallup poll in April, while 22 percent said they met all three measures in a Gallup survey in May. The National Association of Evangelicals says about 25 percent of adult Americans are evangelicals. Larry Eskridge, associate director of the Institute for the Study of American Evangelicals at Wheaton College, puts the figure about 33 percent. "If you're talking about 33 percent of the population, they're not this 'other.' They're your next-door neighbor," Eskridge said. And, like many neighbors, evangelicals can be maddeningly difficult to categorize. They are Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians and other mainline Protestants, as well as Southern Baptists and members of nondenominational mega-churches. Without a uniform theology, they vary widely in interpretations of the Bible and its application to their lives and nation. With these and other strands of evangelical Christianity, "sometimes the most visible and those who shout the loudest are considered the core," said Bishop C. Milton Grannum, minister of New Covenant Church of Philadelphia, most of whose 3,000 members are African American. "But there are thousands of African American and Hispanic churches that are evangelical, and they should not feel threatened by the fact that they are not as visible." Black evangelicals are often "charismatics," a trait shared with Pentecostals and many other evangelicals. Charismatics believe the active influence of the Holy Spirit is evident in such practices as faith healing and speaking in tongues. Despite a common ground of Scripture and tradition, various evangelical congregations often inhabit parallel universes, with different priorities, experiences and politics. "There's a difference in the way we identify politically because there is a difference in the way we identify, period," said Grannum of black evangelicals. "We have had totally different experiences... . The church reflects the larger community." Edmund Gibbs, a professor at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, Calif., said the popularity of right-wing politics is overstated. "Many of us who consider ourselves to be evangelical Christians would want to distance ourselves from that kind of alignment," said Gibbs, an Episcopalian. "And it is very much an American thing; most evangelicals in Europe would distance themselves from the politics associated with evangelicals in the United States." Haggard said his mission is to broaden the movement's base and its vision. "My role is to help the various members of the body to respect each other and work together... to make life better for everybody." Many Faces of Evangelicalism Fundamentalists: They reject the theory of evolution, believe in the literal accuracy of the Bible, regard Catholics as non-Christians, and believe in separating themselves from the secular world. They do not seek to change the culture through legislation. The number of fundamentalists "is very small," said Jonathan Pait, spokesman for Bob Jones University, a fundamentalist college in Greenville, S.C. Larry Eskridge, associate director of the Institute for the Study of American Evangelicals at Wheaton College, estimates the number at "several million." Traditionalists: They are characterized by efforts to maintain traditional beliefs and practices in the face of a changing society. Predominantly Republican (70 percent, compared with 10 percent independent and 20 percent Democrat), this group of white Protestants, with well-developed conservative political connections and ambitions, is closest to the popular notion of the "religious right." They represent about 12.6 percent of the population, or about 28 million adults, according to last year's National Survey of Religion and Politics by the Bliss Institute of the University of Akron. Centrists and modernists: They are less tradition-oriented and more willing to adapt their beliefs and practices. They are more likely to identify themselves as Democrats or independents than as Republicans. They represent about 13.7 percent of the population, according to the Bliss survey, about 30 million people. Black evangelicals: Most of the nation's 21 million black Protestants fit the evangelical definition, but their politics are the reverse of the white traditionalists: 71 percent identify themselves as Democrats and 11 percent as Republicans, according to the Bliss survey. Hispanic evangelicals: Many of the six million Hispanic Protestants are converts from Catholicism, and they skew slightly toward Democratic politics. Catholic evangelicals: This counterintuitive term identifies Roman Catholics who embrace much of the public-witness style of evangelical Protestants. "They have the fire and zeal usually associated with evangelicals," said William Portier, a religious studies professor at the University of Dayton and the author of the recent essay, "Here Come the Evangelical Catholics." Portier estimates the number of evangelical Catholics at 10 percent to 20 percent of the under-40 Catholic population. |
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#17 (permalink) |
Degenerate
Location: San Marvelous
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The way this issue was framed makes it more appropriate for Tilted Paranoia. Some people see the devil behind every political liberal, while others dress him up as a Christian fundamentalist who wants to destroy the environment.
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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. |
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#18 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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this is becoming ridiculous really quickly.
it is empirically the case that a very significant element of the populist coalition the right has assembled is geared around the chrisitan coalition and that ralph reed was fundamental to transforming this from an umbrella organization started by jerry falwell into an extremely effective grassroots political machine. it is also obviously the case that the election of extreme right republicans owes much to the efficacy of this machine. there is nothing paranoid about this--it is simply a fact. the christian coalition's success relies upon several factors: central among these is that it is routine in evangelical land to draw no clear distinction between questions of faith and questions of politics. given the deference accorded to folk who speak with some assurance on spiritual/political matters within the congregations, the effect of this blurring of lines can be kinda authoritarian if you think about it. one of the central arguments the coalition has advanced internally is that a preacher is a preacher and an independent political agent at once and that there is no need to keep the two functions separate. look for yourself--look at the coalition webpages. the christian coalition has been pretty innovative in exploiting this blurring of lines for its own ends: it publshes voter guides for each election that tell the faithful how to vote...it sponsors a range of lobbying activities and routinely generates cash that it streams toward reactionary candidates. http://www.cc.org/about.cfm the coalition has been a significant element in fashioning and enabling to function the various "wedge issues" that the right has used to generate and maintain a sense of (persecuted) separateness--the effects of which you see in nearly every thread here. it is a very large, very well-funded and politically significant group, if you want to look analytically at what remains of the right after 6 years of george w bush. one can argue with host's staging of the effects of this relationship, but you cannot do as powerclown appears to be trying to do and as aladin sane simply echoes and discount the relationship between extreme rightwing protestant evangelical/fundamentalist churches and the extreme right wing of the republican party.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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#19 (permalink) | |
will always be an Alyson Hanniganite
Location: In the dust of the archives
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They're pushing their agenda. So what? I'd expect no less. Bear in mind, the true Bible thumpers are a minority. Most Christians (the ones that I know, anyway) are not anywhere near that venomous. What the Fundamentalists do have going for them is that the're extremely vocal. If the "majority" is going to remain apathetic, then they deserve what they get. This message has been brought to you by an atheist in the Bible belt. You may now return to your regulary scheduled bickering.
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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt. |
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#20 (permalink) | ||||
Banned
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In hindsight, if it would have avoided the distraction from what I consider the well supported points that I posted, after the title, and avoided putting the status of the thread itself in jeopardy, I would have dropped one of the fundamentalist influenced issue labels from the title, instead. Aside from that, IMO, the OP is well documented enough to withstand your "language" description. The focus here should be on the fact that people are losing their lives as a direct result of these intentional, abrupt, and counter-productive U.S. government policy shifts, in much greater numbers and frequency than before these shifts were executed, because a decision has been made to forego diplomacy in favor of military aggression, by the U.S. and by Israel, and to down play or eliminate concern for environmental protection and enforcement, in favor of the priorities inserted by lobbyists paid by the short term profit increases of the formerly more EPA regulated industries. My focus is on why these policy shifts are happening. Far from being classified as "paranoid", "findings" similar to mine, are reported in the MSM, ironically, this prominent coverage of the Ted Haggard in the article in powerclown's last post can be found here: Quote:
in the context of his recess appointment by Mr. Bush to UN ambassador, after he failed to win confirmation to the that position, by the republican controlled senate, and Bolton's participation in Richard Perle's 1996 "study group", described below, that issued a report that stated: Quote:
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#21 (permalink) | |
will always be an Alyson Hanniganite
Location: In the dust of the archives
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![]() For real? I've heard "fundy" used too many times in a psedo-derogatory fashion to completely buy that. Not that I'm judging...I've used it myself on numerous occasions. Just sayin' is all... Of course...I guess that's better than Christofascist. And "fundy" is so much more fun to say too, isn't it? Fundy fundy fundy fundy. Kind of sounds like "undies" after awhile, huh?
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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt. |
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#22 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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bor: i am not sure that i understand what is going on with your posts here.
1. to say that the cc "is just like any other special interest group" may be true if you assume that all interest groups have always operated as they do now--but that would be false. ralph reed--as much as i loathe the guy--is pretty slick and has in fact developed from very innovative ways to both mobilize folk and to create the impression of mobilization. the second one is linked to developing switches that enables telephone canvassers who worked on behald of the coalition to patch people directly through to their congressperson's office if they answered correctly on a series of issue-specific questions. the first is more powerful and dangerous--reed was instrumental in trying to erase any meaningful line between evangelical churches and political entities---so that it became ok for a church to use its buses to get parishoners to voting booths--after they have been coached, of course, via voter guides and the words of preachers, about which way god wanted them to act once they were inside the booths. this is new--politics and religion have not always been collapsed into each other in this way--and the christian coalition is--empirically--a basic force behind the development. 2. i dont know about you, but i think there is kind of a problem with preachers using their power within a church to tell people how god wants them to vote. seems a bit---o what's the word---authoritarian, doesnt it? and it happens. i have experienced it in my wayward youth, i know preachers who do it, the cc website encourages it...and you do not get this in catholic churches--you might get the priest telling you the church's position--but it is the churches position. god does not tell people how to vote. seems to me that if devoutly religious folk impute some authority to a preacher because they imagine him or her closer to god, or endowed with more wisdom then they are, then that preacher has alot of power--it also seems to me that telling people that god wants them to vote one way or another is an abuse of that power. but hey, maybe i just put too much stock in the illusion to separation fo church and state on the one hand, and in the idea that democracy, even in its pathetic american form, involves at some level people gathering information and making decisions on issues based on that information. 3. i get the impression that you think whenever someone uses the term christian fundamentalist that they are really dissing entire regions of the country. i dont understand this--particularly not in this particular thread, where the "bickering" (as you do nicely describe it) has mostly to do with refuting blanket statements that were initially imputed back to host, but which in the end turned out to be examples of poor argument. so i dont understand.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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#23 (permalink) |
will always be an Alyson Hanniganite
Location: In the dust of the archives
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Roachboy, roachboy, roachboy....
I think that you are reading too much into it. I don't necessarily disagree with you...I'm just coming into the room from another enterance. Let's break some of it down. The Christian Coalition has an agenda. Agreed? They need to push that agenda. Right? No matter how you feel about that agenda...they have it, and they need to push it. Remember...they are an extremely vocal minority. Now...Oh, look at that. They have a huge captive audience of maleable parishoners sitting over here, and over there, and some more over yonder. They'd be fools not to make use of that resource. Look at it, kind of like Rush Limbaugh and his merry band of "Ditto Heads". Rush may be an idiot...but he's no fool. No sirree. He's a very charasmatic, and effective motivator. He pontificates...and those that refuse to take the time to think things out, go; "Yeah! That's right! You tell 'em Rush!" Not all that much different than the clergy pounding the pulpit. In so far as the seperation of the church and state? Oh, I believe in it. Yes indeedy I do. However, I'm not so naive as to believe that it exists. Before my cute little slinky signature, I had "Freedom is that area that lies between the Church and the State". Although I believe that statement, I don't think for one moment that it exists. Now...what have we got? We've got Christian clergy pounding the pulpit, telling parishioners that the country that they love is going to go straight to hell, led by those Godless Liberals, unless...they vote for this fine upstanding Christian boy that's running for office. Is that right? Hell no! Do they have the right? Hell, yes! Although...and this is just more pie in the sky...I'd remove their tax exempt status. If the Church wants to be active in politics...let 'em and tax 'em. Can you here the cries of anguish? "But, but...were a church! We don't pay taxes. It's just unheard of". Hit 'em where it counts, roachboy. Right smack in the middle of their pocketbooks. Talk about a wailing and a gnashing of teeth.
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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt. Last edited by Bill O'Rights; 07-27-2006 at 05:25 AM.. |
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#24 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#25 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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Of course they're political. They have their view on what is right and encourage people of similar belief to vote for people who support that view. Is that any different than any other NGO? |
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#26 (permalink) | |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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because, seaver, churches pay not taxes because they a religious organizations.
the criteria for tax exempt status is clear about the distinction. read it, if you like. Quote:
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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#28 (permalink) | ||
Banned
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Buh...bye....Ted Haggard....
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Last edited by host; 11-03-2006 at 10:50 AM.. |
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#29 (permalink) | ||
More anal, less shenanigans
Location: Always lurking
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Personally, until America is governed by Sharia law, I'm not going to wring my hands, slobber on myself, or don a tinfoil hat over people with religious convictions voting for people who will uphold the morals they hold true. Quote:
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. Last edited by xxSquirtxx; 11-03-2006 at 11:34 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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#30 (permalink) | ||
Banned
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Where is the evidence of the accuracy of the "discernment" that they all talk about. They "pray about" everything....every decision. They keep getting it wrong, but they do not budge....or change....ever. Haggard contaminated the US Air Force Academy with his phony christian proselytizing.....and, xxSquirtxx, aren't you finding....more and more that your time is spent defending and dismissing the scandals and controversies that your extreme POV is immersed in and associated with? But....you do not budge or change anything in your point of view. If I was always wrong about who I admired, voted for, defended, was influenced by....I would re-examine my positions and my associations.... |
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#31 (permalink) | ||
More anal, less shenanigans
Location: Always lurking
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#32 (permalink) | |||||
Banned
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I've come back here tonight to post on this thread because it is my hope that, for the voters and politically influential among the 65 million, mostly American buyers of CNP founder, Tim LaHaye's "Left Behind" literary series of rapture scenarios, the presidential candidacy of Mike Huckabee will turn out to be the high water mark of their influence on AMerican politics and on AMerican foreign, domestic, and judicial appointment policies.
IMO, this is the most lacking group of republican presidential candidates to emerge in my lifetime, and maybe longer. I know that most non-christian evangelical, republican supporters must also look at Huckabee's emergence as a viable candidate with alarm, though they be loathe to ever admit here that it is of any concern. This disconnection and incoherence....so many American focused on bringing about conditions in Israel so that they mesh with biblical interpretation as fed to them by these politicized evangelical leaders, is the alpha to the omega of the islamo-fascist biblical opponent that they have conjured up to mesh with their pop religious "rapture ready" delerium. Huckabee is their standard bearer, and due to the pathetic nature of the rest of the field of candidates, here he comes. The prideful pompousness of the non-rapture believing republican supporters would leave them silent on the sidelines, watching the absurdity of all of this, with the rest of us, except for the fact that they also subscribe to the waging of war against the islamo-fascist "other" which they so sincerely and cooperatively helped the rapturist assemble, hype, and demonize. Absolutely amazing to watch, research and write about, if it wasn't really happening, consequences and all, in real time: Quote:
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Last edited by host; 01-18-2008 at 12:20 AM.. |
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cell, christian, effect, fundy, global, israel, official, policy, schiavo, stem, warming |
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