Israel invades Lebanon, Hezbollah attacks N. Israel
 

Israel is invading Lebanon to attack Hezbollah targets in the country after Hezbollah kidnapped two Israeli soldiers. In addition, Israel is looking towards Syria for more retaliation against Hezbollah, and the H. has attacked northern Israel (including Haifa, the third largest city in Israel) with rockets. That roughly sums it up at this point.

Link:http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...ast/index.html




I pray that this will not escalate into a very large war between the Islamic world and Israel, for the souls of the innocent who will die and have already died. However, this seems expected from the Israelis after what Hezbollah has done to Israel in the past few days. We will see how this is played out by the UN and Israel, and again, I hope that there are no more killings.

I'll second that!
I to hope this doesn't escalate into an all out mid east war.

while you're praying, an additional one for our very own KTSPKTSP's family that is living in Lebanon, stay safe...

Hezbollah should be gotten rid of, but there's gotta be a better way to doing it than bombing the crap out of people who don't deserve it...

By the way, there's an active thread discussing this same topic in Tilted Politics... but this one is more direct. I hope it picks up speed.

I want to ask TFP'ers in other countries: how does your media portray this conflict? Is there disproportionate weight given to Israeli interests, as with every news source in America, or do you have more balanced reporting?

I can only imagine how Americans' reactions might be different if we were fed something other than Israel = America's fortunate son. Maybe we would actually care about Lebanon being stuck in the middle. Then again, we seemed to care a hell of a lot about them last year when their Prime Minister was assassinated and "democracy" was the buzzword... but now that our "friend" is being destroyed (again) by momma's boy (with completely disproportionate use of force) we look the other way and even applaud the action.

There's not much I can say. Clusterfuck. One big clusterfuck. There is no one party to blame... and yet, I cannot help but be very frustrated with the apathy of so many Americans. How can we be so blind?

Lebanon is indeed stuck in the middle. I knew a lebanese young man in the summer of 2001, this was before 9/11. We would talk about middle east politics and world politics and he would swear up and down that the Lebanese were not terrorists, but the terrorists were from outside and had taken over the country and there was no way the citizens could truely get rid of them.

But what is Israel to do? We have forced israel to go on with the "road map to peace" the 2 state solution. You can't have a roadmap to peace or a 2 state solution with an enemy who won't acknowledge your right to exist. How do you retaliate when groups attack you, fire rockets into your country, kidnap and kill your soldiers and citizens? Israel has played it restrained for most of this decade. How much longer must she fight with one hand tied behind he back? We weren't preaching restraint when we fought the japanese in WW2, we let them know it was either unconditional surrender or total anialation. Eventually we got the surrender with the total destruction of 2 cities and not a whole country. I'm not in any way advocating that israel should use nuclear weapons, only that they need not show restraint. They need to dominate the enemy in order to end the violence.

Go Israel!

I do hope those who do not support the terrorists but live under their control do not suffer in this conflict, but there is little that can be done to protect them besides removing said terrorists.

I don't know why the left had decided they are on the side of mysogynistic, anti-democracy, anti-personal freedom side of the terrorists and they have given the Palestinians the most one sided biased press coverage that I can think of outside of a WWII propaganda film. But they did and Israel has taken it up the ass for a long time trying to keep the international community 'happy'. I'm glad to see they are doing what they should have done almost 10 years ago.

This isn't about negotiations right now, or for the last 50 years. Israel is fighting enemies which want them destroyed, they speak of prophecies of the Jews all being killed, they think they are doing gods will, yet we are suppose to think its just the fault of the Israelis.

Perhaps if the European press wasn't so blatantly anti-Israeli (as well as much of the US press, but to a lessor degree) some pressure could have been put on the Palestinians a long time ago to really compromise instead of just biding their time, but they didn't, its too late.

These are the people who danced in the streets when 9/11 happened, these are the people who voted in a terrorist government in their last election, these are the people who glorify children blowing themselves up in public places, and they now reap what they sew.

Go Israel!

Aw, come on. The world was just getting to the good part where people were just barely beginning to realize we fucked up and need to fix everything... Now this is like the beginning of World War III, we're caught offguard, and expected to clap for Israel just because it's Israel.

Place high in the Andes mountains sounds good about now, doesn't it?

I can't speak for European press, but I never hear of anything but praise for Israel when it comes to news and policy in the US.

Haven't we been expecting WWIII to come out of every Israeli/Middle Eastern war thta's occurred over the last century?

Except now the rest of the ME doesn't have the USSR backing it.

I think this is just another one of those minor skirmishes that happens all too often.

I fear its one of those minor skirmishes, and we can then get back to the regular schedule of suicide bombings. I want it to escalate and get this over with. This is a problem that putting it off will only get more people killed in the long run.

I think its more than a minor skirmish
If the attacks on lebanon don't result in a pull back of hezbollah and the return of the 2 IDF soldiers there is a good possibility Israel goes into syria, which would draw in Iran....dun dun dun.:suave:

Well, I guess we'll see.

I'm begining to hope both sides annihilate each other and we can go back to peace and quiet and cheap oil.

What happens if China wants to become buddies with the oil countries in the ME?

If it does escalate to all out war between 8 or 9 Islamic countries and Israel, I'm not sure if they could hold them back. And I defiantly don't want the US getting involved in that.

Yeah, I don't want the US to get involved with it either. Same with China. We're all too closely connected via the economy to want to get into a war between Israel and the rest of the ME.

First of all, I find this a horrible sentiment. Do you realize that we too are in a war with a country in the ME? I'd bet a lot more of the world would rather we get the hell out of there and shut up.

And cheap oil neither exists anymore nor will come of this.

Now is in fact the BEST time for a real war there. The USSR is dead, and China hasn't started to reach out as of yet. Do you think China would want to get involved in a fight with the US right now? In 20 years sure, but they are not ready now. We on the other hand have a sizeable force already in Iraq.

Its time for this conflict, its time to get it over with, or when it does happen (which it will sooner or later) it could go nuclear (something which is unlikely right now).

nice to see the context-free endorsements of israeli actions in gaza and lebanon above--the total lack of specific information concerning the actual actions that are unfolding in real time seems of a piece with the cheerleading israeli actions.

it is also quaint to see (again) the same tired line that processing actual information about what israel is actually doing on the ground in real time constitutes an "anti-israel" position.

seems to me like the support for israeli actions and anything like actual information about what is happening are, in fact, mutually exclusive.

so let's get a snapshot of what is happening in gaza.
remember gaza?
the israelis have cut off power, water, almost all food deliveries.
conditions there are becoming really very bad.
this of course affects the entire population--but hey, who cares about crimes like collective punishment?

source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...820615,00.html

yesterday the americans vetoed a motion in the un security council condemning israel's actions in gaza and the humanitarian crisis they have engendered.

the context for understanding this is not the vague, distorted cliffnotes outlined by ustwo above--the context is the reality of the day-to-day conflict between israel--a regional military superpower--and the palestinians, not just the armed groups, but the population as a whole. folk who support the israeli actions relative to the palestinian population can only do so because they do not look at the reality they are supporting. the air is cleaner across Vague Terrain. what unfolds on the ground is ugly and complicated and so--apparently--should be avoided.

what is worse is that
obviously the bush administration is in no position to lecture anybody about how wrong it is to launch full-scale military actions on flimsy and/or incoherent grounds, and so finds itself vaguely waving on the invasion of lebanon. go ahead fellows, and dont worry about niceties of international law or actual arguments in support of your actions--just try to be a bit restrained, ok?

good christ.
finding myself getting a bit wound about this, so i'll cut off here.

I'd just like to point out that the US was the only veto on a motion to condemn Israel that was brought forth by the anti-israeli UN. Thats what they are, anti-israeli. the UN has had far more motions and resolutions brough forth against israel than any other country. The arab countries use the UN as a way to fight israel. The same israel they deny has the right to exist.

-----

I doubt china would ally with anyone in an upcoming war. They would sit by until the US was too preoccupied and make an uncontested move on Taiwan. The wild card is north korea, who would either attack the south or, more realistically pass a briefcase of uranium to iran.

I would like to ask everyone to think of this senerio.


We have radical groups here, say that they went to a country that we don’t real like but not at war with, such as Cuba or Venezuela. Kidnapped and killed some of their solders. Cuba/Venezuela wants something done about it. We do little or nothing. So Cuba/Venezuela takes matters into their own hands and starts shooting rockets in the suburbs of Houston. Then Cuba/Venezuela says you know there is a branch of this radical group outside of Toronto, and thinking about going after that once they are done in Houston.

Seems a lot of people want to give Isreal a little sympathy, cause they are Isreal. If someone did something like that to us, everyone would see it different.

Just something to think about.

Interesting. One of my Jewish friends stopped sending donations to her PBS station, because she thought there was an anti-Israeli bias in NPR's reporting of these conflicts.

I'm sorry about what happened in WWII, but I was born in 1983, so I don't feel guilt for it. Israel is out of line attacking civilian targets. They have been out of line every time they have attacked civilian targets. Palestinian militants have been wrong every time they have attacked civilian targets. Hezbollah, an independant radical group, are wrong for attacking anything.

Lebanon didn't attack Israel. Israel attacked Lebanon. Unless I see prooof that the Hezbollah actions were connected to those people in the airport who died, Israel will remain on my shit list.

The bottom line - and why I support Israel in this - is that the Palestinians, Syrians, Iranians don't want to negotiate with Israel, they want it destroyed. Syria employs Hamas to do its dirty work and Iran employs Hezbollah for same. Lebanon is to blame for allowing Hezbollah to operate in its country, implicitly lending it support. Israel left Gaza months ago, and they left Lebanon 6 years ago, and they continue to be attacked from both locations.

So now it looks like Israel is seriously going after Hezbollah, instead of the usual pinpricks. They are apparently pressuring Lebanon to stop providing Hezbollah with a base of attack on Israel. Civilians are suffering and being killed on both sides. Israel is being hit with hundreds of rockets, many made by Iran. The arab countries are taking casualties and damage as a direct result of their irresponsible leadership, continued shelling of Israel, and their collective decision not to negotiate with Israel.

This latest round of violence was deliberately started by Iran and Syria. Iran planned the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers to distract from it's nuclear situation, which is shortly going up for review in the UN Security Council. Israel has the right to defend themselves from aggressors bent on their destruction. America is right to support their only democratic ally in the region.

Let's make the scenario a little more close to home.

Let's say that Mexico had a bad past with the US that there is no love betwen the US and Mexico.
Imagine that A South American country had for years controlled the Mexican government and would often involve themselves in skirmishes with the bordering US areas.
Assume also that years ago the US entered and occupied Nother Mexico for many years.
Now Imagine that the US, from much criticism from its own population (and the rest of the world) about occupying part of another country and about loosing American soldiers due to the fighting in that area, withdraws from Northern Mexico.
Imagine that A couple of years later with a strong push the Mexican people with the world behind them are able to push out the South American country that was controlling them Politicaly. While Mexico is able to free themselves politicaly the militant organization, that was politicaly controlling the country, sponsored by the South American country, and other US enemies, remains in Mexico.

Now about a year later, imagine that this militant force crosses over the border, goes into San Antonio, and kidnaps a couple of US Soldiers. They bring the soldiers back over the border. They then state that the US can have the soldeirs back if they release members of their organizations that are in US prisons and were captured during the previous years of fighting.

There is a strong possiblity that the militant organization is going to smuggle the two soldiers out of Mexico and to the South America country.

What should the US do?

Who is "we"? My country isn't anywhere near Iraq.

Whats with all the scenerios? How about looking at what is really going on and not some hypothetical?

Powerclown is dead-on.

The IDF is not indiscriminately bombing civillian targets, they are doing what it takes to cripple Hamas' and Hezbollah's ability to wage war. You do that by knocking out infrastructure, electricity, transportation routes, etc. Should Israel attack syria, which will happen eventually before there is an actual end to this situation, Iran is sure to involve itself, thus the US and Britain will be there.

Get prepared boys. Its almost time.

And then all the Bible-thumpers will be happy, for it will be the end of days, Armegeddon, return of the Messiah, etc.

And they would have to take our transports if they wanted to get there :lol:

Canada doesn't really play into any of these discussions except as a future source of oil.

I wouldn't go that far. Not looking for armegeddon here, i just think this is going to get much much bigger before it gets any smaller. I don't fear the world is facing destruction.

Do Americans carry passports? I thought you were all busy marrying your cousins and losing toes to farm equipment down there.

Y'all?

:lol:

Careful I just left Kenora Canada, its much like Deliverance there only with pine trees and more indians.

no-one seems to want to address the real-time contexts for this--narratives abour wanting to destroy israel are in the main outmoded--they function to justify irrational responses, like the invasion of lebanon--but they are being abandoned bit by bit. hamas has de facto abandoned this element of its platform.

that hasnt stopped israel from pulverizing the gaza strip.
that action is not about shalit--it is about destroying the palestinian government because they do not like hamas--that action continues, is a humanitarian crisis of significant proportions--and as usual the united states does fuck all to stop it, to influence it.

the follow-up claim is that there can be no negociations because there is no-one to negociate with. (well not directly at least--at an arm's distance, negociations happen.)
meanwhile, 1.5 million people in gaza experience the grinding reality caused by the israeli blockade.
just as they have experienced years and years of brutality at the hands of a regional military superpower, which the palestinians fight using tactics that i deplore, but which i can at least understand.

clearly it is the palestinian groups which are the "terrorists" here. routinised brutality carried out by a state military cannot be "terrorism" right?

you'd have to be an idiot not to connect hezbollah's actions as being linked to what israel is doing in gaza. for the sequence of actual events, look at the graphic i posted earlier--hezbollah launched a rocket attack and took 2 israeli hostages--which is not a good move and i do not condone it--THEN israel invaded southern lebanon--THEN more rocket attacks.

to invade southern lebanon over this seems to me absurd.
completely, wholly absurd.
to cut lebanon off from the world, to destroy the airport, impose a naval blockade, and to bomb suburbs killing 50 in the first day--this seems to me a totally disproportionate response to any sane assessment of the situation.

the americans can say nothing of any substance because their actions in iraq prevent them form saying anything. on what possible basis could this administration make a criticism of israel's invasion of lebanon? so all i see here is the bush administration framing itself out of having any meanignful role in this, except for its usual unqualified support for israeli military actions.

What is with the media? One Israeli woman and child are injured and they are victims. How many Lebanese people have been injured or killed by the actions Israel has taken?

It's bias in the news like this that makes me have to filter it out so much.

I could care less about who wins. If Israel (and the religious anti-muslim) people of the world take over about ~12 countries in that region, yea for them. If the 12 Islamic states go to war and reclaim Israel, it will be a little more peaceful until the sunnis and shittes start at it again.

It must be convenient to have 1/10th of the US military setup all over two of the Islamic countries...

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...275674,00.html

And if Hezbollah does not disarm and lebanon decides not to fight hezbollah what is Israel to do? make concessions? No, pound hezbollah until there is nothing left of it.

First story I looked at...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13853565/
Israel seeks to disarm Hezbollah
The death toll in three days of fighting rose to 73 killed in Lebanon — almost all civilians, including five who died in strikes in south Beirut and the south Friday — and 12 in Israel, including four civilians killed by Hezbollah rockets.

Which media do you speak of that is pro-Israeli in any way shape or form? The European press has been caught staging faked incidents of Iraeli violence and you see media bias in FAVOR of Israel?

http://www.nysun.com/article/5385

Ustwo, are you seriously saying that you think all Lebanese people danced in the streets when 9/11 happened? And what is this about Lebanese voting in a terrorist government? Hezbollah has a couple of seats in the Lebanese parliament, but the Lebanese by no means voted in a "terrorist government." In fact, due to their grass-roots movement last spring, they were able to GET RID of a terrorist governmen's presence (Syria) with public demonstrations. Additionally, VERY FEW Lebanese glorify blowing up children, and VERY FEW Lebanese become suicide bombers.

Please explain to me what the Lebanese people have "sown" to reap this kind of "reward." Your facts are completely off; you are confusing Palestinians with Lebanese, and you are confusing Hezbollah with the Lebanese. Not all Lebanese support Hezbollah. And yes, it's nice to imagine that Lebanon has the ability to get rid of Hezbollah, but that's about as good as saying the US could just "kick out" its illegal immigrants. Hezbollah draws its strength from the third or so of the Lebanese population that are Shia; can you imagine kicking out a presence that has 30% support of your population? That would actually result in a civil war... something that Lebanon is, quite understandably, not interested in starting up again.

The Lebanese are not in control of southern Lebanon, Hezbollah is, even if its not marked on the map. Those who do not support Hezbollah are unfortunately caught in the cross fire and may be used as human shields by Hezbollah so people can post about Israeli attrocities as if they are targeting civilians (which is so ironic since thats exactly what Hezbollah and Hamas do). They need to be removed by war, and war is upon them. To say they shouldn't is like saying the US/UK/Canada couldn't invade France (and cause lots of civilian deaths I might add) to get rid of the Nazi's. The Lebanese can't do it themselves, so it must be done by Isreal.

Nevermind.

Agreed. And yet much of the abuse is raining down on the infrastructure of Beirut... which is *not*, by any stretch of the map, in southern Lebanon. Your comments don't make sense in light of that fact.

You also have not answered my other comments on your post. Why are you conflating the majority of the Lebanese (non-Hezbollah supporters) with the Palestinians?

EDIT: I see you added more to the last post since I read it. Let me think on it and I will respond again.

That was an error on my part, a prematurereplyation.

As for attacking things like the airport, the problem is the 'offical' Lebanese government has little power to do anything. Isreal does not want any of these guys to escape and I dont' blame them.

Hezbollah is not "hiding out" at the international airport, or under the bridges that the Israelis have bombed. Of course I am not a perfect source of information here, but it is my understanding that Hezbollah is not using human shields in order to draw Israeli fire. Israel is simply choosing to target places with civilians, period, whether or not Hezbollah is related to that target.

Believe me, I think it was wrong for Hezbollah to kidnap those soldiers, okay? However, I also find this to be a disproportionate use of force to rectify the situation. BOTH sides are wrong, and the whole thing is a mess.

Oh? And when did the Lebanese ask Israel to become an ally to "help" them get rid of Hezbollah? I agree, yes, that the Lebanese can't do it themselves. But I DO NOT agree that it "must" be done by Israel. No one asked Israel to do this; not even the U.S.

Hezbollah is a rotting, gangrenous limb attached to Lebanon. Yes, it needs to be amputated. No, Lebanon cannot do this by itself. But Israel has NOT been invited to play surgeon here; to use that as your logic is completely out of whack. When the fuck did a doctor perform an amputation by cutting off the patient's other three healthy limbs on the way to cutting off the diseased one? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Okay, thank you. Nice new word, btw. :) Do you know how tiny Lebanon is? The black humor of all this is that NO ONE in their right mind would even try to hide someone in Lebanon; it's too damn small.

I wouldn't expect Hezbollah to have hung around in Lebanon for very long at all after that kidnapping; Syria is just a short drive away (and I mean SHORT, less than a couple of hours), and no blockade of the water, air, and land of Lebanon within 24 hours could have prevented Hezbollah and Co. from escaping across that massive border to Syria within a short time after the kidnapping.

So: why isn't Israel bombing Syria? Why aren't they bombing Iran? EVERYONE knows that these are the crucial supporters of Hezbollah; and yet Israel chooses to beat up its rather tiny northern neighbor. If Israel REALLY wants to get rid of Hezbollah, they'd better turn their rage on Syria and Iran. Now that, I would like to see. EDIT: In that case I wouldn't cheer on Israel any more than I would cheer on anyone else participating in a war, but I would certainly be less harsh on Israel in that situation than I am being now.

Please discuss. I'm most interested to hear all your opinions on that last question.

I don't have time for a full reply but what Lebanon wants is not an issue.

If Hezbola is attacking Israel out of Lebanon and the Lebanese government can not/does not stop them, it would be 'nice' if the Lebanese would invite help, but its by no means required. If some guy is shooting out of your neighbors window at your house and your neighbor does nothing to stop it, do you have to wait for them to invite you into their home before you do something about it?

I agree with this logic; however, the missing part here is that while the gun may be aimed out of the neighbor's window, there is a remote control on that gun... and it's being operated from a house a few streets over. To go and annihilate your neighbor's house (where the majority of the residents have no means of controlling the gunfire) instead of training your crosshairs on the remote operators a few streets away... is a fucking waste of time, resources, and human beings.

I'll ask it again: why doesn't anyone call for mighty Israel to bomb Hezbollah's hideouts in Syria? Iran? Why does Lebanon "deserve" to receive ALL of the punishment, when clearly, its own citizens would love to punish Hezbollah too, if at all possible?

This is a conflict that has been escalating and looming for almost 50 years. It will not be over until Israel has been declared victorious by all or until Israel is completely obliterated. There will be no middle ground for the arab countries. I have a friend who was shot 6 times in the back, paralyzed from the waist down because of it and he has been kept from returning to his home country (Lebanon) for 28 years because he had been targeted by the terrorist groups there. He was openly pro-Isreali then and his the terrorists thought his sentiments worth obliterating by shooting a man in the back. The mentality has not changed much. There is very little in this current conflict here that is new news.

I personally believe that when the U.S. decides to turn their back on Isreal we will become non-existant in the world politics. Any respect other countries may have for us will be lost. The U.S has backed Isreal for those 50 some years. To change our mind now would signal weakness to other countries. That's just my 2-cents.

having already grown tired to the simplistic information--linked to simplistic views--on this attack, i'm going to start simply posting information from various sources.

there's this analysis from the sf chronicle, for example:

source: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NGIBJV7MB1.DTL

so the states should do something to contain this, but it cant--because of iraq--and wont--because of the particular...um....nature of this administration.

meanwhile, there is this press compiling service in english, which gives a range of views on what is happening. i bit the above article from here...

http://www.beirutnews.com/

if you read french, this paper is interesting:

http://www.lorient-lejour.com.lb/pag...page=main-page


i'd be interested to hear what folk with closer contact with lebanese politics make of this as well:

http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/20...everending.php

That's just it, Raeanna... it's a lose-lose situation, as it stands. You said it in your own post; there is no middle ground for the Arab countries. However, at this point there is also no middle ground for the U.S. on Israel.. and for that, I find no good explanation.

To expect the Arab countries to ever unconditionally accept Israel, especially without a Palestinian state, is to demand that they signal their own weakness and irrelevance to world politics. How can anyone possibly expect them to do something that we as a country cannot seem to do, ourselves? I'm reminded of that scene at the beginning of Gladiator (I know, I know, but the movie did have a few choice lines): just as the Romans are about to conquer the "barbarians" in Germania, there is an exchange between Maximus and his officers.

Quintus: "People should know when they're conquered."
[pause]
Maximus: "Would you, Quintus? Would I?"

NO ONE wants to back down, even when it means their own destruction. But how can we possibly base our entire foreign policy on the idea that "that's what we've always done, and if we do anything different, no one will respect us." Who respects us now, in the world? Israel? Of course they respect us; what choice do they have? But we've *lost* respect in the world for supporting Israel, not gained it.

The only way out would be for both the Arab countries and the US to somehow be willing to confess the futility of their unchanging stances, agree that the whole situation is a clusterfuck, and try something completely different. Together.

Otherwise, this whole damn thing is going to go on in its sisyphean madness, until someone hits the red button and the whole planet gets blown to shit.

roachboy, I'm listening to you. And I appreciate your posts. This quote especially, taken from the article you posted, is very illustrative... I'd like to see discussion on this topic in particular. The fair-weather friendedness of the current administration. So much for our moral American high-horse.

Where is everyone else on this thread?? There have got to be more opinions out there than just a handful...

Oh I have plenty of opinions. I think that Israel should give up land and allow 100% autonomy to an independant Palestinian State. I think that Jerusulum should be international territory. I think that Israel should apologize to Lebenon for the recent attacks, which were absurdly disprportional to the kidnapping of the soldiers. I think that radical groups that you find in Syria and Palestine would become less willing to do things like suicide bombs if they were treated like human beings. Are they innocent? God, no. Blood coveres both sides. But the point is that this attack is symptomatic of a much larger problem. Israel is a terrorist state. Hezbollah is a terrorist group. What's the difference? It's like the pot bombing the whole stove, including innocent saucepans because the kettle is black. If that makes sense.

Most of all, I think that the US government should FINALLY either leave Israel on their own, or we should stop them from doing shit like bombing airports and buldozing communities. No more military aid. They have shown again and again that they are about as responsible as the Bush administration when it comes to military power.

The only problem with the above is that those "radical groups" will never live peacefully with the state of Israel, as long as it exists. Name one year of peace between any given terrorist group and Israel. These terrorists don't want apologies, they want Israeli deaths, and public support.

It's not about apologies at all, it's about reasonable concessions. Do you remember the cold war? Do you remember all of the obvious pgopoganda handed down to us? "Communists hate us and our way of life!" "Communists are Godless!!" "Communists will stop at nothing!!" The reason that they used to say that is to dehumanize the enemy so that it is more palatable to kill them. The simple fact is that there are no "evil enemies of freedom who will stop at nothing". There is a logical reason that these people go out and do what they do. Palestinians don't strap bombs to themselves because they are crazy or evil...they do it as a final desperate act to fight for freedom. These terrorists do ahve demands, and it's not as simple as "destroy Israel" or "death to the infadels". They want a home and a government. They want peace. If given the opportunity, I suspect that they would be willing to stop fighting.


No one wants to go to war (save for my very own president).

That's one thing I just don't understand, if that's what the Arabs are (supposedly) concerned about: Why isn't there already a Palestinian state? That's what the original partition plan offered back in the 1940's. At any time from then up until June, 1967 the Arabs could have established a Palestinian state with the simple stroke of a pen. It's only become an issue when it's been something that's useful for hitting Israel. Before 1967, it seems to me that the Arabs (and practically everyone else) didn't give a damn.

That works better on the other side of the equation, willravel. The Palestinians have already had at least two "roadmaps" or whatever anyone wants to call them, offering them basically their own government. (Oslo, anyone?) In response to Oslo, the Israelis ended their occupation of many Palestinian communities (for example, Jenin). Look what they got as a result - four years of wondering whether this evening out for dinner and dancing, or this trip to work on their usual bus, would be their last, all courtesy of their friendly neighbourhood "Partners For Peace".

On the other side, what the Israelis offered Egypt was the return of the Sinai in return for peace. Israel kept its side of the bargain. Officially, Egypt has done the same. (Unofficially is another question.)

Given the opportunity, I think the Israelis would be more likely to stop fighting than the Palestinians would, unless you're taking a very long-term view.

Hezbalah, is a part of the Lebanon government. They even have 2 cabinet members who are a part of that terrorist group. If an organization that is a part of the government attacks the neighboring country, capturing soldiers of the neighboring country, that is an act of war.

Israel took out the airport, the road, and boat, to stop the transportation of the kidnapped soldiers. There should be no negotiating with terrorists. They have asked for thousands of prisoners back in return for a handful, of people that they have siezed in an act of war. I feel bad for the reguler citizens there, but it is their governments fault for not complying and disarming the terrorist group Hezballah, and allowing them to be such a powerful force in their country.

Israel has made many concessions to show that they're serious about peace in the Middle East. Most of the Arab states have made no such concessions, some have openly stated that they wish to see the death of Israel and others have supported and continue to support local terrorist groups which carry out attacks against Israelis.

Israel is basically surronded by nations which not only refuse to acknowledge their right to exist, but openly (All right. Some do it covertly) carry out attacks against the Israeli nation. Sooner or later, one has to say enough is enough. In my opinion, Israel finally reached that point. The United States has supported Israel for 50+ years. To suddenly stop supporting them now would be ridiculous, especially when examing the reasons for Israel's recent actions.

I don't think anyone with sufficient knowledge of the situation would suggest that the U.S. suddenly withdraw all support for Israel. I am certainly not advocating such an action; there must be moderation in any solution.

For example, why can't we withdraw even a minor percentage of our support, at least to the point where Israel's military is not intimately woven with our own and they are forced to stand just a *little* bit on their own, without the extreme crutch of the U.S.? I just don't see why Israel deserves such 100% unconditional support from the U.S.; we don't have that kind of relationship with any other nation in the world, and we shouldn't.

Why not support Israel 75%, or hell, even 90%? Just as an experiment. To see if they can hold a bit of their own.

On a different note, I'd like to see more responses to my question re: if Israel *truly* wants to destroy Hezbollah, why are they are not striking Syria and Iran directly?

My guess is that they're testing the waters. Attacking Iran directly would draw in a much larger war. Bombing some places in lebanon probably won't do much aside from put some attention on what's going on in the ME. Attacking Iran and Syria will probably enlarge the war quite a bit more.

Of course, it's just begun, so they may end up striking Syria and Iran.

Easy to say, considering you're not Lebanese and you (or your family) are not living there in fear right now.

That's just it... Lebanon is a pawn right now. No one really cares what happens to that country... but oh, how that would change if you had been to Beirut, if you had seen how long it's taken to reconstruct so much damage from 15 years ago. And now it's all blown to shit again.

And that's just infrastructure; I'm not even talking about the psychological trauma that has been reintroduced to the Lebanese people as a result of these strikes.

Anyway, thanks for responding Frost. If the Israelis really had balls, though, they'd have gone straight fot the jugular. The fact that they are so stuck on Lebanon is beyond me... unless there is something else going on. I'm not convinced that this is *all* about Hezbollah.

Given Israel's location, I think that them having an extreme crutch is warranted.

You know as well as I do that they wouldn't be able to hold their own without full support from the United States. It's not as if Israel has an entire ocean seperating it from it's enemies; It's pretty much surrounded on all sides by those who wish to see it destroyed. If the United States withdrew any type of support, I'd guess that a few Arab nations would take advantage of the situation and attack Israel.

Besides, I'm not keen to see the same thing which happened to South Vietnam happen to Israel.

As it stands, not many Arab nations support Hezbollah (At least not openly), thus keeping the conflict between Israel and Lebanon. If Israel were attack Iran or Syria, that would probably draw quite a few Arab nations into a war against Israel, and that wouldn't be a smart idea on the part of Israel.

There's a difference between having balls and being incredibly stupid. Openly attacking Iran or even Syria would be incredibly stupid.

Thanks for responding, Loser. My questions were, of course, mostly hypothetical; I realize the US could never actually withdraw its support from Israel. But can't we at least consider WHY that is the case? Why did we even act in the first place to establish a country that would never be able to stand on its own? How tenable is this whole set-up, in the long run? It has already been quite a long run, and it seems that it's no more tenable today than it was 50 years ago. Israel is entirely non-self sustaining. That is no way to go about running a country; even the poorest countries in Africa have more self-sustaining potential than Israel has.

I guess, to me, I don't see how attacking Lebanon *in this manner* (disproportionate force) is in any way non-stupid behavior. Don't get me wrong, I find Hezbollah's behavior to be equally reprehensible and stupid; they get equal treatment with Israel, in my book. But how can any nominally educated person go about thinking that this is the way disagreements should be settled? And yet, this is the way our world works, for the time being. :| I know that. But it doesn't mean I like it, or that I will be silent about my dislike of it.

Meh, time to stop thinking about this for a while. Need to sleep.

From what little I understand about the conflict (from newspapers and TV news) if this thing escalates Israel may very well go after Syria. I believe that if Iran directly attacks and does more than just provide weapons then the US will become directly involved as well. I don't think that either one of our political parties will allow Israel to be destroyed.

Well, wouldn't that fit nicely into world events. Somehow, I would not be surprised AT ALL if this was the outcome of this situation. And if that did indeed happen... ready for a draft, folks?

I'd be suprised if we had a war with Iran that involved ground forces. I would suspect a LOT of bombing, but to invade Iran with ground forces would be insane if you asked me. Take out the nuclear power, their army, etc. using air support... Seems like the easiest way to do this.

I doubt that Congress would re-instate the draft.

if israel's aim is to dibilitate hezbollah, i find it quite ironic that they hit the northern city of tripoli where there hezbollah is virtually non existant and where shiites are few and far between. the christian town of Jounieh was also hit. i find no reason for any justification of these cities where hezbollah does not exist.

can anyone show me the justification in bombings, if not only to terrorise an entire nation.

my wife is in the northern city of Tripoli at the moment. i talk to my wife in 2-3 times a day now. contrary to what you guys might see on tv, its a vastly different picture over there. the airport is closed, all ports are closed and the borders are closed. over 50 bridges have been bombed in the last 4 days, the continued killing of innocent civilians, here we still have people who regurgitate simple-minded trash about justification for the illegal bombardment of a nation.

you guys sit behind your computer screen in the comfort of your own home sipping ice tea and justifying how its ok for my wife and in laws to come under attack by israeli warplanes in a city that can in no way be a threat to israel. i was actually talking to her on the phone when the attack occured and they could see smoke billowing outside. the attack also happened lass than 500m where our house is in Tripoli where the port was attacked.

israels attack has been a calculated effort from day one, i just wasnt sure what. ive mentioned this at the start of the thread in the politics threan when referring to the attack on gaza.


i will try and keep you guys updated whenever i can.

Not all of us are justifying this, dlishsguy. Ktspktsp is in virtually the same position as you, with his parents and sister stuck in Beirut and Jbeil. He's been on the phone with them several times a day as well; we know what you're going through. I hope your wife and family stay as safe as possible, and do keep us updated.

abaya

thank you for your concern. ive followed the thread, so im well aware that not everyone here thinks that the bombardments are justified.

i guess it's frustration stemming from the fact that im half a world away and i cant do anything about it. locked in by air sea and land by a bullying neighbour. their dream holiday turned into a nightmare.

many of my family members are holidaying there at the moment (other than my in laws) i have 3 uncles and an aunt in Mina which is in Tripoli as well as my wife and inlaws. (all up i have about 17 immediate family members in tripoli, not to mention the cousins and 2nd cousins and huge extended family all lebanese families have) so its quite daunting everytime i hear an update on the situation. ive also got distant relatives that live in the south, but i dont know much about their situation. last night it took me an hour and a half of constant dialling-redialling before i got through, so the phone lines are congested or down. the next worst thing the israelis could do is knock out the communication towers..then we'd really be fucked.

my thoughts are with Ktspktsp and his family. you really do know who your friends are when they call you to make sure everything is ok. even if its a quick phone call.

My thoughts are with all victims and possible victims, and my malice and contempt are towards those who refuse to act like adults. How easily they sentence innocent people to death for petty political aims. It disgusts me.

hey guys.

Here are my views on this whole matter. I feel bad for the innocent lebanese people and israelis who have to deal with these attacks. I just want to say that before i go on.

Now, i want to say that the other arab countries don't care about the palestinians. they just flat out don't. the only people who care about the palestinians are palestinians. countries like syria and iran just flat out want israel gone. while in small numbers , jews were tolerated in the middle east. when numbers began to grow, they were despised. look up "the vanshing jews of the arab world" and learn about how jews were exiled from arab lands where their homes were and how they lived in israeli refugee camps until israel was able to take them in. look up things lirke the "farhud" and look up how the mufti of jerusalem worked with hitler in organizing an arab SS. also look at this article written by lebanese-american Joseph Farah. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24170
i think that if the israelis and palestinians can just discuss all of this without other arab countries or even muslim countries (pakistan meddles as much as the US does) somehting might develop.

Now i definetely think israel is going too far with these attacks. i understand their frustration with the fact that these militants are attacking their borders and that the lebanese government is not acting in any way to destroy them, but i feel that innocent lives are more important. i understand their strategy, but i just don't think its an effective one. and i really doubt that the israeli government or even people want to hurt lebanon deliberately becuase unlike popular beleif, israel is not tryint to expand and take over the arab world. i also agree that israel is wrong when bulldozing homes and many of my jewish and arab (also arabs and jews CAN be friends, i just think it needs to be out of the whole middle eastern context) friends agree with that fact. but before real peace talks happen, there needs to be a stop of the violence. you can't discuss peace while there are people being killed. that goes towards both sides. every time there seems to be some sort of peace deal, there is always a setback.

I just don't beleive this will ever happen. everyone needs to take actions into their own hands. and that's somehting i dont see happening soon.

dlishsguy,

I hope your wife is able to return soon, and that your relatives stay safe.

And willravel (and a few others in this thread), thank you for caring thoughts.

My parents and sister are safe for now, but when the bombing is 2 miles away, what is "safe"?

This isn't really about two kidnapped soldiers. It's more about destroying a country's spirit, infrastructure, economy and potential. And causing the death of 100+ civilians so far (some of them Israelis too). It's like being beaten up by a bully and just waiting for him to be done, since no one will help you (well, the UN could pass a resolution to enforce a cease-fire, but Bush "doesn't want to make military decisions for Israel", or something like that, so any resolution would be vetoed).

To echo another point by dlishsguy, the one good this I saw come out of this is how many friends I have that care about me and my family. It is a blessing (and this is coming from an atheist :)).

Alright, armchair generals, you can go back to your recipes of domination and destruction now.

(why yes, I am a bit bitter)

and me.

Nirvana, I agree that Israel has every right to be frustrated, but I agree a lot more that this is obvious overreaction. The innocent lives are ALWAYS more important, and should be the first thing on everyone's mind, espically the Israeli government, but they aren't(sorry for the run-on sentence). Israel is always so mad when innocent Israli people die beause of political bombings and such, then they turn around and kill dozens of innocent people over military politics. Hypocritical much? (Willravel puts his father pants on) They need a time out. The whole region needs a time out. They need to go to their respective corners and count backwards from 10. The terrorist organization Hezbollah, which is responsible for numerous terrorist attacks, should be simply condemned by the Lebanese government. Many, many people in Lebanon hate them for what they do. They cause tremendous instability, and do so much more harm than good. Hezbollah *may* not even exist if it weren't for Israel invading and occupying Southern Lebanon, though.

Bottom line: the Hezbollah network and the Israeli government are forcing war on each other and their neighbors. It's wrong. Damn both of them, and I hope that they both get overthrown.

As I said in my journal... (quoting another Will):

"A plague o' both your houses!"

ktspktsp. i hope your family get out of this ok and unharmed. while i don't agree with your opinions about israel, i do hope they are ok.

we moved on from the style forum into the political arena, willravel. I do agree that this is an overreaction as well. while i say that, i do understand what they are trying to do and as i said before,, i just dont think this is an effective strategy. oh when i said no one cares about the palestinians, i meant the arab governments in the middle east who claim to be fighting for the rights of the palestinians. i myself hope they can live in peace one day.

israel has always been a country whpo has beenm on the defensive. it has to fight enemies on all borders. when you are constantly being attacked, u react and you react hard. the same thing can and should be said about the palestinians, but two wrongs dont make a right. it is a vicious cycle.

also i hear this idea that israel is taking advantage of their military might to crush the palestinians. its israel against the entire middle east plus the hypocritical EU. there are stuck and they dont know how to get out. they cant fight every single country out there thats sending terroists to attack in the "name of the palestinian cause".

What exactly has Israel done wrong? No matter what country Israel attacks, someone will find a reason to blame Israel for it's actions.

In a nutshell, Israel has made concession after concession and what they get in return is kidnappings, bombings and other terrorist attacks. It's hard to make peace with someone who doesn't want to make peace with you.

Anyway, what do you believe Israel should have done in this situation? Diplomacy doesn't work (It never has) and ignoring the problem isn't an option, either. Therefore, what else are you left with?

alos the reason why israel is so mad about having their people being killed by these militants because it happens weekly. and the countries where these terrorists take refuge denounce their actions but secretly support them. while it is hypocritical, what are they to do. i mena right after the israelis gave land last year, what did the palestinians do. they destroyed the buildings that they could have live din. they burned down farms that they could have used to support themselves. they destroyed every single synogogue, which is not surprising, but the motivivation behind it is disgusting. and yet there are still attacks. even what israel does do somehting that many of the people who denounce israel consider right, they dont get any slack from their critics or the militants still commiting attacks to this day.

i agree infinite loser, what else are they to do. siplomacy will not work. every action israel takes, they get criticised for. i can guarantee that there are large factions out there that will not rest until israel and every jew is gone out of the middle east. this is not about the disputed lands. this is about israel as a whole.

What is this thread about? Israel has launched attacks on civilian targets in Lebanon. No matter what the excuse, it is ALWAYS wrong to target civilians.
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These people are not members of the Hezbollah. They are normal people like you and me who have friends and jobs and lives. They did nothing against Israel and have had their worlds rocked. People have died horribly.

Let's put it like this: Let's say we have a scale, one the one side, we have two Israeli soldiers being kidnapped by the terrorist organization Hezbollah. One the other side we have the deaths of well over 100 innocent civilians in Lebanon.
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Israel is wrong. Israel has done wrong. Let there be no doubt.


What should Israel have done? They have some of the best ground forces in the world, so why not use them? Contact the Lebanese government and ask for assitence in a multilatteral rescue. If the Lebanese refuse, tthen send them in anyway. Minimal possibility for collateral damage.

The way they are operating now, they maye very well have bombed the very soldiers they wante to save. They are bringing animosity upon themselves by the international community. They are killing innocent civilians. They are killing innocent civilians. They are killing innocent civilians.

while i agree they are wrong with their tactic in this "situation" and i have stated that before, i think the person before me is speaker on a broader scale, not just this one situation.

one has to think however, this is the exact thing that hezbollah wanted. this is the exact thing that they were trying to spark. israel unfortunately played right into their hand. if you read the statements that the leader of hesbollah made, you cna clearly see this was a highly calculated plan.

Would you like me to post pictures of bombed Israeli homes? I could, but that'd be rather pointless.

Hezbollah's actions-- If carried out against any other country-- Would be considered an act of war. I can't speak for Israel, but I believe their aim is to cripple Hezbollah rather than to purposely kill innocent civilians. As bad as it sounds, there will always be civilian casualties in a skirmish such as this one. It's unavoidable.

Once again I repeat, as cynical as it sounds there will always be civilian casualities, no matter what precautions are taken beforehand. There is absolutely no way to target just the terrorists. Instead of blaming Israel, why don't you blame the Lebanese government for not taking a strong stand against Hezbollah? It's just my opinion, but it seems to me as it the Lebanese government cares more about destroying Israel than it does about it's own citizens.

This isn't just about two soldiers. It's basically the culmination of years of terrorist attacks against Israel, even amidst the concessions Israel has made in the search for peace.

I still don't see how Israel is wrong. How much abuse does one country have to take before saying enough is enough? If the United States-- Or pretty much any other country, for that matter-- Were in Israel's shoes, they would have bombed the living hell out of any and every country responsible for the continual attacks. It's a wonder that Israel didn't go on a bombing spree years ago.

And we'd still end up where we are now. Therefore, I fail to see a difference.

Israel is basically reacting to years of terrorist attacks from numerous radical groups. I know I'm basically repeating myself, but if the Lebanese government cared about their citizens, then why haven't they done anything to kick Hezbollah out of the country? Why would the Lebanese government continue to willingly allow Hezbollah to carry out attacks against Israel while harboring them in their country? Why didn't they take the necessary precautions to ensure the safety of its citizens? Surely they had to realize that sooner or later Israel would retaliate, especially since Israel has pretty much always had an anti-terrorism stance?

If Lebanon cares about the destruction of Israel more than the welfare of its own citizens, then they have to accept the fact that they put their citizens at risk if Israel does decide on some type of military action.

actually i don't really want to be a prt of this discussion anymore. i will just leave it with hope that the people of israel and lebnon can get through this unfortunate series of events.

Since the US has decided to stay out of this conflict, I wonder if they will get involved if the tables turn and Israel starts getting pounded.

Guess it depends on the price of a barrel of oil and how much Israel can keep the upperhand while oil profits go through the roof.

It would illustrate quite well that two wrongs don't make a right.
Is Israel at war with Hezbollah or Lebanon? Because it looks to me like the latter is bearing the brunt of the attack.

If Israel were pointing their guns at Hezbollah soldiers and innocent Lebanese citizens were running by and got caught in the crossfire, then I might be able to understand that. That's not the case here. Israel is attacking Lebanon, not just Hezbollah.
That's not reflected by history. Lebanon took in Palestinian refugees during the Arab-Israeli conflict. Syria attacks some of the stronger Palestinian groups in Lebanon who are fighting the Maronite militias. Syria occupied Lebanon until last year. In 1978 Palestinian forces who had fled to Lebanon orchestrated cross-border attacks on Israel, so Israel invaded and occupied Lebanon (all because Lebaon was trying to help the Palestinians). The PLO ( a terrorist organization working indipendantly of the Lebanese government) set up shop in Lebanon and attacked Israel again in the early 80s. This is when Hezbollah was said to have formed. Israel ivaded Lebanon AGAIN. Israel didn't completly withdraw forces until 2000. Iran and Syria are the heavy influence on Hezbollah forces, not the Lebanese government, which on the whole is trying desperately to seperate itself from the Israel/Syria-Iran conflict. In order to remain neutral, the President must be a Maronite Catholic Christian, the Prime Minister must be a Sunni Muslim, and the Speaker of the Parliament must be a Shi'a Muslim. I think that's pretty brilliant. I see that as an honest step in the right direction.
I like the analogy used before. Imagine you're getting shot at by your neighbor, but your neighbor has no control over the weapon. It's actually being controlled from down the street. What do you do? Do you attack your neightbor? Or do you go after the guys down the street? Israel went after it's neighbor.



You seem to think that because Israel has been through really bad stuff, that it's somehow okay to attack innocent civilians. Well it's not. Hezbollah attacked Israel, not the Lebanese people. The Lebanese people have been victimized enough already by arab and jew alike. I'm sick of it, and I've never even been to Lebanon.

Hezbollah = guilty
Lebanese civilians = innocent

...one of these things is not like the others.
1) Hezbollah
2) al Qaeda
3) PLO
4) Lebanese civilians

Hezbollah bombs Israel because they want them destroyed. Israel bombs Lebanon is hopes of crippling Hezbollah.

I guess it's just me, but I see a difference.

Hezbollah holds fourteen seats in the 128 member Lebanese parliament. If the terrorist group which almost weekly carries out some form of attack against Israelies openly holds some amount political power, it seems a good reason to go after Lebanon, does it not?

I know what happened in 1982 with the invasion of Lebanon. Israel did withdraw it's forces from Lebanon but they're still attacked by Hezbollah (Continually attacked, I might add). If the Lebanese government wants to take a stand, then they should start by curtailing the activities of Hezbollah in their own country. They can openly state that they don't support Hezbollah, but when Hezbollah holds some amount of political say-so in the country well... That just makes the Lebanese government out to be hypocrites.

That's not a very good analogy in this case, because Lebanon does have ties to Hezbollah-- They hold fourteen of 128 seats in the Lebanese parliament. Is it any wonder why Israel would go after Lebanon?

If your neighbor was willingly pulling the trigger, you'd sure as hell go after him. Israel did.

Just so repeat myself, it seems as if the Lebanese government is more concerned about taking Israel out than it is protecting their own citizens. Why would you openly accept a terrorist organization which frequently carries out attacks against Israel into your political structure if you didn't share their views? And furthermore, how much has Lebanon actually done to facilitate peace in the Middle East?

but isn't that what Hezzbollah, Hamas, and the Palestinian suicide bombers have been doing, killing innocent civilians?

I have friends and family, Israeli and Lebanese... I'm quite torn about this, but I know that it's wrong to kill innocent civilians, while I can't say who started it first, I do know that Hamas and Hezzbollah continued after Israel made an attempt at peace, even at the risk of internal political fallout.

in regards to the guns in the window remote control, well if you don't clean up your own house or make sure that people don't come into your house and sully it up, it's still the homeowners responsibility and ultimately I'm for removing said house if the homeowners are negligent.

Yes, there is a HUGE difference. That's my point. State sponsored terrorism is quite a bit different than terrorism carried out by an independant organization. Hezbollah operates in Lebanon, but not on behalf of them. The citizens who died in the bombings were not singing the praises of the Hezbollah. Israel, the state, is attacking Lebanon, the state. That's war. It's disproportinate, and it's attacking the wrong people. It's like needing to amputate a toe, so the doctor cuts off your leg. Overkill.
The government? Sure. Some poor guy trying to get on a plane? Nope. Israel targeted civilians in order to terrorize the Lebanese populace. It's a classic Israeli tactic.
Name one governmental body in the history of the world that isn't hypocritical. I think that Lebanon has improved by leaps and bounds from where it was even 5 years ago. Hezbollah activity is down, not up. Slowly Lebanon is weeding out radicals. The PLO is gone now. The Syrians and Iranians commanding and influencing the Hezbollah are next.
Okay, I get it 14 out of 128. Do you know how many Hazbollah sympathizers and members were in the government 10 years ago? Again, we are seeing improvement. Yes, we should still do everything we can to stop Hezbaollah from carrying out attacks. That doesn't mean attacking innocent civilians and committing an act of war against a neighbor.
Hezbollah deserves to be brought to justice for what they've done, not just now, but over the past 20 years. They are by definition a terrorist group. They are trying to declair war on Israel.

Lebanese citizens do not deserve to be bombed for things that they have not done and probably don't condone. They are by deffinition innocent. Most of them want to live in peace with Israel.

Are the Lebanese to be responsible for all the wrong doings of people residing in their country? Do they really deserve death for that?



I have to admit to being VERY surprised at the responses about these attacks. I know people like to side with Israel, but I can' see how this is excusable in any way.

Ktspktsp

ive just recieve msg that my wife and in laws have gone up the mountains in tripoli. to quote her sms "right now im ok"

if thats re-assurance, then i dont know what is. cos she may not be in an hour. i pray that your family is well. ive had them in my thoughts as much as my own family. i really have.

ive just heard news that 9 israeli civilians got killed in a hezbollah attack on haifa. somehow i just dont see this getting better without the US getting involved tpo broker at least a temporary ceasefire.

to quote condeleeza rice...

"She said the United States strongly supports Israel's right to self-defence and that "I'm not going to try to judge each and every Israeli operation or each and every Israeli attack".

an oxymoron perhaps? using the words self defense and attack in the same sentence? when will the US wake up.

willravel...ive always admired your intelligence. thanks for your thoughts

i know i said id stay out of this but willravel please read the link that i had previously provided to show that lebanon or syria does not care about the welfare of the palestinians. if that was the case this could have been hashed out ages ago.

It is interesting how such support goes so blindly and unevenly for Israel and it's people. Is this to mean that Lebanon does not have the right to self defense and neither the Palestinians?

I don't condone any attacks on Israel period but giving Israel carte blanche to do as they please is nothing short of war crimes. Collective punishment isn't the answer and if Israel and the US think this is the route to take in some warped way, Godspeed to them. Instilling terror on anyone is terrorism. There is no good or bad side when it comes to terror.

Good article today-- Go to link--Some of the text isn"t tracking

Sun, July 16, 2006

The Final Say

Israel and its enemies will talk eventually, the only issue is how many civilians on all sides will have to die before it happens
By Eric Margolis




The Bush administration, Israel and U.S.-aligned Arab states have been blaming Iran and Syria for igniting the worst Mideast fighting in many years.

They claim Iran and ally Syria got Lebanon's political-military movement, Hezbollah, to kidnap two Israeli soldiers in a patch of disputed border territory. Tehran's goal, they say, was to divert attention from growing efforts to curtail its nuclear program. This view has some merit, but is far from the whole story.



margolis@foreigncorrespondent.com


[B]Sunhttp://www.torontosun.com/News/Colum...6/1686880.html

This article shows that Hezbollah doesn't have 100% support from the Lebanese people themselves. But again, if you don't run them out of your space because you want the "good" services they provide, then you also have to accept the "bad" services. I'd equate it with the same tactics that John Gotti used in NYC, he did lots of social service, but at the same time it was at the expense of the disservice he also did to the community.

Another thing about the, but "look at what Israel is doing now," tactic, you cannot excuse bad behavior with worse behavior. It just doesn't float.

Finally this intrigued me:
But no one seems to remember that Jews and Arabs are connected as sons of Abraham/Ibrahim. Ironic.

I said that I would stay out but this is too intriguing. i agree that this attack, once again, is too much. however, some of the things that israel is bombing is necessary for this action. for example, the airports need to be bombed because the airports are outside links to hezbollah's supplies funded by iran.

also i hope in the realm of this discussion, when someone is attacking the actions of a country that they aren't harboring the same feelings towards the people of that country. im sure the people of lebanon definetely don't want this and the same goes for the people of israel who held large demonstartions against the military action.

Nirvana, thank you for your thoughts.

dlishsguy, thank you for your prayers, I'm thinking about your relatives too.

Cyn, indeed, Hezbollah does NOT have 100% support in Lebanon, far from it. In fact, I've always hated them.

I don't agree with this though:

You are assuming the whole of Lebanon want the "good" services of Hezbollah. That's wrong.

Hezbollah is not something that Lebanon has been able to control, because of its weak government, divided population, and the strong foreign backing of Hezbollah. This does not make it OK for Israel to use collective punishment on the Lebanese instead of just targeting Hezbollah. If a new John Gotti type re-emerged in parts of NY and provided some social services to some people, along with his criminal actions, should your house (assuming that you don't back him) be a legitimate bombing target? Should the NYC airports and bridges be bombed? No.

np ktspktsp. i myself have family in israel who were evacuated into bomb shelters since this whole mess began. my hope is that this does end sooner rather than later.

I hope so too Nirvana, for the civilians in Lebanon and in Israel. I hope your family stays safe.

How can you compare Gotti, to a terrorist organization that has 2 of its members in the cabinet of the government (we will not get in to all the other government positions that they are in as well)!! I am very saddened for the innocent people involved, but at some point a country has a right to defend its borders. And the retaliation strikes that have been done so far have obviously not swayed the government in Lebanon to remove these terrorists from their country. Nor has it swayed Hezbollah to stop attacking Israel.

If your country has a terrorist organization that is a part of your government, who runs large segments of your country, then at some point it is going to come back to haunt the country. I am saddened for the civilians, but that does not mean that Israel has to worry about daily rocket attacks, suicide bombers, etc... At some point Israel as a neighboring country, has to say that this is war, and sadly in war innocents are hurt. And attacking military compounds, kidnapping soldiers, and demanding the release of hundreds of prisoners, pushed it across the line.

So I say, yes while they may have only punched you, and now you are taking out a gun, you have to look at what they have been doing, and how it reflects on the larger scale. The prime minister of Lebanon, claimed he would take over the border with his army. This was 24 hours ago, where is he now. Why did it take him 48 hours to even respond with that, when it was part of a UN resolution from over a year ago? Enough if the government will continue to tolerate it, then the people have to change it. And if the people do not want to change it, then there are consequences for allowing the terrorists to co-exist in your country.

I am horrified, saddened, I have relatives in that region, and every attack I hear of, in Israel makes me flinch. And you have to realize that we do not hear of 1/30 of them. There have been over 500 rockets fired in to Israel over the last year. And every day I say a prayer for my family there. You can complain about this, how about the complaint of living under that fear daily of the suicide bombers, of the rockets, of the continuous assault, the feeling that they will never recognize Israel as a right to exist. Sorry but I feel that war is barbaric, and there is a lot of wrong things about it, but at some point it is needed.

a "warscape blog" from mazen kerbaj, an extraordinary trumpet player in beirut

http://mazenkerblog.blogspot.com/

have a look.

Xazy,

The Gotti example was something I built on top of an example Cyn was providing.

As for Hezbollah being into the gov't, this was an attempt to being it more into the Lebanese fold so as to pave the way towards it being disarmed. It's a long and arduous process to be sure.

I know that civilians on both sides are suffering and that's why I want a cease-fire. I want the killing and destruction to stop.

You know... I disagree with some of your other points but frankly I don't see the point in arguing right now. I don't have the energy for such a useless thing (for both of us).

I hope your relatives stay safe in Isreal.

And I hope there's a cease-fire soon.

And I'm getting out of the house because I need a change in scenery.

If you, the government, place members of Hezbollah into a state of political power, then you, the government, are sponsoring any actitivities that Hezbollah might carry out. If the Hezbollah in Lebanon continue to attack Israel, then under any other circumstances, this would be considered an act of war by Lebanon against Israel.

So explain to me who Israel should be attacking? They should be attacking the country in which the attacks came from and the country in which Hezbollah has clear political power.

That's not correct. The Israelis are not trying to terrorize the Lebanese people. They are, however, trying to weaken Hezbollah by destroying bridges, roads and any other means which can be used to transport supplies to other members of Hezbollah.

Just because other government have been hypocritical doesn't give the Lebanese government the go-ahead to be hypocritical as well.

We're not speaking of ten years ago. We're speaking of right now. If Hezbollah in Lebanon continuously shot rockets into, say, the United States (Or any other country for that matter), would not this be considered an act of war? If this happened the United States would probably spare no expense in bombing the holy hell out of Lebanon, with probably very little resistance from the public. Therefore, I really can't understand how Israel is wrong in invading Lebanon.

Here's your problem; If you willingly vote a terrorist organization into your countries parliament, then you are just as much at fault for their actions are they are for their actions.

Hezbollah holds political power in Lebanon.
Hezbollah in Lebanon continues to attack Israel.

So, given those two circumstances, who should Israel attack?

Just heard on CNN that Israel has killed 5 Canadians. I hope our PM comes out of the G8 summit with stinging criticism rather than a statement like last week where he said he supports Israel unconditionally. Unconditionally supporting disproportionate force is not what I want from my leader.

it does not take a rocket scientist to link hezbollah's rocket launches to the state of affairs that the israelis have created in gaza.
while attention is focussed on the military and humanitarian crises that israeli actions are putting into motion in lebanon, the grinding oppression in gaza has been bumped out of sight out of mind.

hezbollah is obviously opportunistic in this, and i am not a fan either of the group or its choice to intervene in the situation being generated by gaza--
but if for some reason the causal chain of events has become mysterious to you, think about it using the scenario in gaza as a starting point.

israel is not a innocent victim in any of this--to think they are is to think via fantasy. while these fantasies unfold, people die on the ground.

i see no meaningful distinction between a guerilla group using a makeshift bomb to blow up a market and phosphorus and conventional bombs being rained down on civilians from aircraft marked with a military insignia. particularly not in the context of the pulverizing of lebanon. maybe some of you folk who argue in favor is israeli actions based on some vague long-term pseudo-history of the region (you know, the ones that do not at any point take seriously the assymetery of force between israeli and palestinians, the one that knows nothing and understands nothing about the history of occupation and routinized violence directed against palestinians, etc and moves from that to presenting israel as the innocent victim of "terrorist attacks") can manage to make a distinction between these types of action. i cannot.


but as has been argued above, there is no proportionality, no relationship between what israel is doing and its putative objectives and/or target.

Of course it's correct. Israel hates Lebanon. They have the opportunity to attack them and what do they do? They show extreemly excessive force that doesn't effect the Hezbollah, but it does kill many innocent Lebanese civilians.
Well since we never went after Saudi Arabia after 9/11, I'd say that the US is likely to simply let it go. Wait, Israel can now not only bomb Lebanon, ut they can invade, too? Maybe we should escalate this further, and give Israel moral permission to nuke Lebanon's major cities (so the can destroy the Hezbollah infurstructure). I mean that seems to be a reasonable response to having two soldiers kidnapped.
Am I responsible for the continuing war in Iraq? I voted in the 2004 US election.
They hold some power, but they are not the government. It'sa like sayign that the Independants here in the US hold political power. They do on a simplistic level, but in reality they basically have none.
How about Hezbollah? The people who ae no dead are not Hezbollah, and that's the point. Israel is foolish. Israel is going to create MORE enemies from this move. Did you know that some of the casualties were Israeli?

This is utter nonsense. Have you seen pictures of downtown Beirut? Israel is destroying the entire infrastructure of Lebanon like they did in '82. I guess they weren't trying to terrorize the Lebanese when Israel only killed 18,000 of them back then, right.

And when the entire infrastructure is destroyed, who does it affect? EVERYONE.

If Israel keeps this state sponsored terrorism up, they should be sactioned and held accountable for war crimes. But that will never happen. They are and will always be above the law. They in my eyes are no different from Hezbollah, Hamas and the rest. Terrorists them all

Of course it's correct. Israel hates Lebanon. They have the opportunity to attack them and what do they do? They show extreemly excessive force that doesn't effect the Hezbollah, but it does kill many innocent Lebanese civilians.

i disagree with this. israel is not intentionally trying to hurt the lebanese people. it would make no sense for israel to weaken the already weak lebanese government that for the most part is much better than when syria had control over lebanon.

well, nirvana, if weakening lebanon's government makes no sense, then why is israel attacking the whole of lebanon?
and if you are bombing residential suburbs and infrastructure, what relevance can vague claims about what israel "means to do" possibly have? so for example, if an israeli bomb hits a convoy and kills 10 children, as happened yesterday, your response would be "oops...didnt mean that...sorry."?

i am sure the phrase "collateral damage" is of great solace to the families involved. it always is.

whoever said that i dont aknowledge families and children being hurt. who said that by saying "oops but that's collateral damage" is supposed to make anyone feel better, especially those that are affected by this. it's not. People die in wars and that just flat out sucks. but that is what happens. just wondering roachboy, when you hear of an assualt on israel, are you ever this outspoken?

im also gonna post the article by joseph farah, a lebanese-american.
"Who really cares about the human rights of Palestinian Arabs?

Syria, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and other Muslim nations have warned Israel, in various ways and with different degrees of intensity, over the Jewish state's alleged mistreatment of Palestinian Arabs.

There's one major problem with these threats. These nations have done far less for Arab Palestinians than Israel has.

That's right. I said it, and I mean it.

Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about.

The Jordan Times reports that "Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, who have long been denied many civil rights including the right to work, now face a new obstacle in their precarious lives."

Under a bill introduced by parliament earlier this year, Palestinian Arabs will be deprived of their right to own property. Those who already own property will not be able to pass it on to their children.

Now just imagine if Israel passed such a law? Can you imagine the international outcry? What would the United Nations have to say about this? How long would it take to equate Zionism with racism again? How would the media establishment in the West view such a draconian ploy?

Yet, this is happening in an Arab country virtually without comment – except here.

And take a look at the transparent rationale for this action in Lebanon, as described in the Jordan Times: "The Lebanese parliament passed the law on the grounds that it wants to protect the right of the Palestinian refugees to return eventually to their homes which they fled after the creation of the state of Israel on Palestinian lands in 1948."

Don't you love that? We are protecting your rights by denying your rights. Only in the Arab world could such hypocritical duplicity occur without international ridicule and universal denunciation.

Keep in mind that most Palestinian refugees today were born well after 1948. They never lived in the land called Palestine. And the reason is that their Arab neighbors have been so inhospitable to them. They have not allowed them to resettle because Arab leaders are determined to fan the flames of hate with Israel. They want to keep this scapegoat issue of a Palestinian homeland alive so that the Arab people don't turn their enmity toward their own leadership and begin questioning why they are deprived of their own human rights.

Lebanon, by the way, is a virtual client state of Syria. It is occupied by the Syrian army. No significant political decision is made in Beirut without the approval and direction of Damascus. And it is Damascus, more than any other Arab capital, that supports the Arab terror campaign in Israel, that undermines every attempt at peaceful reconciliation between Arab and Jew and that has orchestrated this strategy of actively denying Palestinians their human rights in the name of Palestinian human rights.

How bad is the situation in Lebanon? Here are more details as reported by the Jordan Times – not exactly a mouthpiece for the vast international Zionist conspiracy:

* Under the Lebanese labor law that governs foreigners, Palestinians are denied 74 forms of employment;
* Palestinians face tight exit and entry requirements;
* Palestinians in Lebanon are not allowed citizenship;
* Palestinians are confined to 12 camps with no medical, social or educational services from the government and are barred in some of those camps from building or even repairing homes.

Some in Lebanon have even recognized the "racist" nature of this anti-Palestinian campaign – policies far worse than anything ever contemplated by Israel.

Yet, more than half a million Syrians marched earlier this week in support of the Palestinian uprising in Israel, chastising the Jewish state for "Nazi and fascist" practices. Do those Syrian citizens have any idea of what kind of oppression Palestinian Arabs face next door in Lebanon? Do they have any idea that their government is directly supporting such policies? Are they aware that more Syrian troops are headed to Lebanon now to support the Beirut regime that has imposed such repressive measures?

While Israel has bent over backwards to accommodate the Palestinian Arabs – especially those victimized by the 1948 war – the Arab nations have only sought to exploit their misery. That exploitation continues today. It is overt. It is a matter of law. Yet the world sees it not. "
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24170

assymetry, my friend.
there is no common ground without a basic acknowledgement of the assymtery of force in the region. this is a post-1967 world--israel is a miliary superpower.
generally, when i read about an attack one way or another, i try to find out what is going on.
this is one small reason why it pays to not buy into the idiotic "war on terror" discourse.

two articles.
this from the bcc addresses the bewildernig israeli tactics:

source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5184974.stm
original with graphics.

and this, which in a really depressing mannaer demonstrates the intertwining of this pathetic administration with present israeli tactics. the bush people are boxed in by their own lack of credibility as a moral force in the situation (pace iraq), by the usage being made of their own idiotic war on terror discourse:

source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...500957_pf.html