No Flag Burning Amendment - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Ample · 06-28-2006, 08:07 AM

So, the flag burning amendment gets shot down by a single vote. First, why do we need this? Is this really an issue right now? There are so many other issues that or Senators should be focus on. We have soldiers being killed everyday in Iraq. A budget that is spinning out of control, three dollar gas prices, Education and healthcare problem, and the list could go on and on. What is the priority of the people that represent us in Washington? Gay marriage and flag burning, they should be ashamed of themselves. You know its not the republicans that are at fault here, plenty of democrats voted for it too, the ones in those swing states. Seems like their time and resources should be focused on more pressing issues.

Am I completely wrong here, or is this just an attempt by the republicans to point finger come election time and say, “look he is not strong on national security, and he not patriotic” It’s a shame that they are using the constitution to secure their own political future.

Will Americans see through this? Do any of you feel that is this a real important issue, right now?

stevo · 06-28-2006, 08:25 AM

Like you insinuate, the republicans are probably behind it all

To answer your questions:

We don't. no. getting re-elected.

pan6467 · 06-28-2006, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

Like you insinuate, the republicans are probably behind it all

To answer your questions:

We don't. no. getting re-elected.

It is far more a GOP platform issue than a Dem. issue. So there is more than insinuation, it is fact.

For every Dem that may even mention this I can name probably 20 GOP that talk twice as much and want to make flag burning a huge issue.

It's a Red Herring the GOP know will never get through, but it will take the press coverage aand the heat from the scandals away, at least for awhile. Let's get some radical "patriots" all up in arms and pissed about flag burning and have them bitch and moan about that so people and the press will focus on that, until we can find another hotpoint to divide the people...... that way they don't focus on the scandals, on living wages, on the war, on the deficit, on the trade imbalances, on whatever.

In the end, we'll hear more about this for a week or 2 than we will about illegal immigration or liveable wages or whatever.

Politics at it's finest.

samcol · 06-28-2006, 08:59 AM

I can't believe they are even discussing this not to mention actually voting on it. What's really scary is that it missed the senate by only 1 vote.

In my opinion this is pretty cut and dry. If you can burn your country's flag then you're probably living in a free society, but if you get arrested then you're living in tyranny.

Also, I agree with Pan that this was mainly brought up as a distration to other real issues that need to be dealt with.

dksuddeth · 06-28-2006, 09:03 AM

what hypocritical crap from the senate, all this gusto to support the partial bill of rights. pffffttt

pan6467 · 06-28-2006, 09:13 AM

All you have to do is listen to how Limbaugh is spending ALL his time on it so far today. And how it is "the Liberal Left hating America and this is a win for them, meanwhile this is not a cut at your freedom of speaking out... it's an assault to every patriot and true American out there."

Now I realize why I don't listen to him..... he covers the Red Herrings and tries to whip people into a frenzy over issues that do not matter nor will ever pass, because they are taking rights and freedoms away.

cyrnel · 06-28-2006, 09:24 AM

That it missed by only one vote is a great indication the vote, possibly the entire amendment, was staged and never more than a side-show.

It they're willing to make a mockery of the process in this case, how many other votes, while perhaps less obvious, share the same contrived underpinnings? Which if any issues are real to our representatives?

stevo · 06-28-2006, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

It's a Red Herring the GOP know will never get through, but it will take the press coverage aand the heat from the scandals away, at least for awhile.

There's a new scandal? what is it today? please inform.

Gilda · 06-28-2006, 09:44 AM

I consider my opposition to an anti flag burning law a patriotic stance in favor of freedom of speech. Symbols matter, yes, but are less important than those things that they symbolize.

Gilda

Redlemon · 06-28-2006, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

I consider my opposition to an anti flag burning law a patriotic stance in favor of freedom of speech. Symbols matter, yes, but are less important than those things that they symbolize.

Gilda

Exactly. It's a symbol. Burning a flag really pisses people off, and that's why people do it - to get attention. However, I don't remember the last time I heard of someone burning a flag.

And hey, is it time for a Simpson's quote yet?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amendment-to-Be

Boy: (spoken) Hey, who left all this garbage lying on the steps of Congress?
Amendment: (spoken) I'm not garbage.
(sung) I'm an amendment to be,
Yes, an amendment to be,
And I'm hoping that they'll ratify me,
There's a lot of flag burners,
Who have got too much freedom,
I wanna make it legal,
For policemen to beat 'em,
'Cause there's limits to our liberties.
'Least I hope and pray that there are,
'Cause those liberal freaks go too far.
Boy: (spoken) But why can't we just make a law against flag burning?
Amendment: (spoken) Because that law would be unconstitutional.
But if we changed the Constitution...
Boy: (spoken) Then we could make all sorts of crazy laws!
Amendment: (spoken) Now you're catching on!

Boy: (spoken) But what if they say you're not good enough to be in the Constitution?
Amendment: (sung) Then I'll destroy all opposition to me,
And I'll make Ted Kennedy pay,
If he fights back,
I'll say that he's gay!
Fat Senator: (running up) Good news, Amendment! They ratified 'ya. You're in the U.S. Constitution!
Amendment: (spoken, estatic) Oh, yeah! Door's open, boys!

Many bills and amendments run in, behaving wildly and shooting guns; bombs fly everywhere. The crowd cheers enthusiastically as the Senator lifts the boy and the Amendment on his shoulders; both raise their hands triumphantly.

Seaver · 06-28-2006, 10:10 AM

Quote:

It's a Red Herring the GOP know will never get through, but it will take the press coverage aand the heat from the scandals away, at least for awhile. Let's get some radical "patriots" all up in arms and pissed about flag burning and have them bitch and moan about that so people and the press will focus on that, until we can find another hotpoint to divide the people...... that way they don't focus on the scandals, on living wages, on the war, on the deficit, on the trade imbalances, on whatever.

That would work if the ammendment idea did not date from when the Dems were in power.

Personally I think it's stupid and refuse to give it the time of day.

pan6467 · 06-28-2006, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

That would work if the ammendment idea did not date from when the Dems were in power.

Personally I think it's stupid and refuse to give it the time of day.

Yes, and the GOP make it an issue every time they need to get the heat off or them for some reason.

Let's see most recently: Wages (let's keep minimum wage low, not even WORK with industry to find ways to increase wages... BUT we'll give ourselves raises...), Illegal immigration, the war, the bank records- press is too free we need to control it, you know some true issues that may not be so controlled and easily manipulated by the GOP.

stevo · 06-28-2006, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

Let's see most recently: Wages (let's keep minimum wage low, not even WORK with industry to find ways to increase wages... BUT we'll give ourselves raises...), Illegal immigration, the war, the bank records- press is too free we need to control it, you know some true issues that may not be so controlled and easily manipulated by the GOP.

Is that what qualifies for a scandal these days? can we say "grabbing at straws?"

djtestudo · 06-28-2006, 12:06 PM

If you think this is a single-party issue, then you obviously haven't been in this country very long...

Average_Joe · 06-28-2006, 12:30 PM

Didn't the original pres. Bush pass this Amendment in his first year in office only to have it rescinded a short time later?

Charlatan · 06-28-2006, 01:15 PM

I can't believe Americans actually spend time debating wether it should be legal to burn a piece of fabric...

I think something else is burning and it isn't your flag.

The_Jazz · 06-28-2006, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Average_Joe

Didn't the original pres. Bush pass this Amendment in his first year in office only to have it rescinded a short time later?

That would be "no". He signed a law outlawing the practice but it was overturned as an unconstitutional infringement on free speach. There's a huge difference between a bill/law and a constitutional amendment, including how they pass into being.

Elphaba · 06-28-2006, 03:27 PM

Pan:

Quote:

Yes, and the GOP make it an issue every time they need to get the heat off or them for some reason.

This may be true, but I think the current motivation is that the base must be appeased during an election year. All of the old standards are being trotted out to reaffirm one's conservative credentials with primarily the evangelical right. Their support is crucial to win any election for the GOP. Do you suppose they will ever catch on that they are virtually ignored by their elected officials the remainder of the time?

dksuddeth · 06-28-2006, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

Do you suppose they will ever catch on that they are virtually ignored by their elected officials the remainder of the time?

who else are they going to vote for?

djtestudo · 06-28-2006, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

Pan:

This may be true, but I think the current motivation is that the base must be appeased during an election year. All of the old standards are being trotted out to reaffirm one's conservative credentials with primarily the evangelical right. Their support is crucial to win any election for the GOP. Do you suppose they will ever catch on that they are virtually ignored by their elected officials the remainder of the time?

Everyone is.

That is the problem; no matter who you vote for, you don't matter (unless you are a minority, "working class", or a working-class minority, of course).

Paq · 06-28-2006, 10:12 PM

i'm pretty much against flag burning bc of just the offense it gives to my father adn people like him, people who fought for this country and who sacrificed more than i could imagine for me to be able to sit here and type this out.

That said, i'm sure he and i would go burn a flag on the steps of city hall and where-ever we could if a no flag burning amendment passed. I dont' believe he nor any other soldier fought for a gov't to curtail rights in such a manner..

My question echoes that of most here: Why is this even an issue...WTF good is going to do for the american people, why in teh world am i paying out hte arse for a doctor's visit and why are so many people making min wage when congress votes for raises every year.

smooth · 06-29-2006, 05:09 AM

Flag handling etiquette explicitly encourage flag burning as a proper means of disposal when the flag is no longer fit to be flown.

So it seems that a valid reading could lead someone who felt the flag was unseemly due to what it has come to symbolize to burn it.

Now, I'll believe these senators are genuine about their concerns when they don't write on flags, or allow anyone to wear them as clothing items, as these behaviors are expressly forbidden according to the rules.

Bill O'Rights · 06-29-2006, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

I can't believe Americans actually spend time debating wether it should be legal to burn a piece of fabric...

It's not exactly a washcloth we're talking about. It's not the actual woven fibers that are an issue. It's the meaning, and the symbolism, attached to those woven fibers that lend the emotionalism given to it.

Hmmm...washcloth. I should imagine that should I, for whatever reason, set fire to a towel, or even a blanket, in the middle of the street, I would be arrested. Surely, if nothing else, I would be in violation of some anti-pollution law, or anther...right? I mean, you can't go around setting fires when and where you feel like it...can you? So, why do we need to ammend the Constitution? We don't. Just tighten up the fire code.

Redlemon · 06-29-2006, 08:33 AM

Anybody read the Federal Flag Code? Included in there:

"The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery."

"The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown."

Perhaps we could work on complying with those first. I mean, the President himself broke "The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature" by autographing a flag.

debaser · 07-02-2006, 05:27 AM

I think this a very pressing issue. It is amendments like this and the Gay Marriage amendment that will save our country.

/sarcasm

Gilda · 07-02-2006, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redlemon

Anybody read the Federal Flag Code? Included in there:

"The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery."

"The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown."

Perhaps we could work on complying with those first. I mean, the President himself broke "The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature" by autographing a flag.

Or, how about every politician in the history of this country using it in their advertising?

Gilda

filtherton · 07-02-2006, 11:42 AM

I think bush even autographed one for an admirer once.

I echo all who have said the whole amendment thing is a useless waste of time.

KnifeMissile · 07-02-2006, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

It's not exactly a washcloth we're talking about. It's not the actual woven fibers that are an issue. It's the meaning, and the symbolism, attached to those woven fibers that lend the emotionalism given to it.

Yes, it is a wash cloth we're talking about, except that not many people will use it to wash anything. It has meaning and symbolism to many people, yes, but a washcloth can have meaning to someone yet burning that isn't forbidden. Why not? Why is the symbolism of the US flag more important than the symbolism of my washcloth? According to the US Constitution, it is not.

The fact that flag burning is a debate truly is stupid.

Here are two things that I think everyone already knows but I will say them, anyways.

It is not the government's job (and, hence, there's no need to pass legislation) to protect you from being offended. In fact, it is the government's job to protect my right to offend you.

Why do we protect freedom of speech, anyways? If your speech is popular then people will defend it. That's part of the definition of popular. Speech that people like doesn't need defending. You only have to protect speech that is unpopular. That's why rights advocates are always protecting assholes, because if you want to limit people's rights then you will start with the people no one likes. No one likes them, anyways, so who cares if they have rights? The thing is, when you take away someone's rights, you are taking away your own...

The flag is a symbol. Burning the flag is also a symbol...

Seaver · 07-02-2006, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Yes, it is a wash cloth we're talking about, except that not many people will use it to wash anything. It has meaning and symbolism to many people, yes, but a washcloth can have meaning to someone yet burning that isn't forbidden. Why not? Why is the symbolism of the US flag more important than the symbolism of my washcloth? According to the US Constitution, it is not.

How many people in US history have died defending a washcloth?

ObieX · 07-02-2006, 09:11 PM

I'm rather sure no one died just for a flag either. Its the ideas behind the country that the flag represents.. not the flag itself. The flag is just cloth. If you destroy the ideas behind the flag then it is meaningless... and that is what a constitutional amendment like this does.

Mobo123 · 07-03-2006, 01:13 AM

I've been an attorney since 1985. We all know we have lost susbstantial personal freedoms oh so quietly, in the name of "national security" with out anybody giving a whimper.

The loss of our right to burn the flag would be the loss of our most simple, most basic right of free speech.

It is beyond my belief that any politician who has read the constitution could even consider such a proposition.

I am saddened beyond measure about this. It is incomprehensible that, first, this should come up and second, it lost by only ONE vote.

Vote every single one of these assholes out of office. They dont deserve to shine our shoes.

reconmike · 07-03-2006, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ObieX

I'm rather sure no one died just for a flag either. Its the ideas behind the country that the flag represents.. not the flag itself. The flag is just cloth. If you destroy the ideas behind the flag then it is meaningless... and that is what a constitutional amendment like this does.

I am pretty sure you are wrong, you see whenever the flag is in combat that piece of fabric is defended, not the symbol or what it stands for but the fabric itself, and I can assure you that US military personal have been killed just making sure that the enemy did not get their hands on said fabric.

As to an amendment to keep it from being burned, well I think our lawmakers should be doing usefull things with their time and our money, like throwing every illegal border crosser out of this country, stopping welfare and making those lazy bastards cut grass for my money.

MoonDog · 07-03-2006, 02:04 PM

I say burn away. I have no problem with someone letting me know that they are pissed at things, and the flames give away their positions for the snipers (a little humor there!).

Redlemon · 07-04-2006, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KnifeMissile

Why is the symbolism of the US flag more important than the symbolism of my washcloth? According to the US Constitution, it is not.

Just to argue the other side for a moment, the Flag Code also says "The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing."

06-28-2006, 08:07 AM	#1 (permalink)
Ample Psycho Location: In your closet	No Flag Burning Amendment So, the flag burning amendment gets shot down by a single vote. First, why do we need this? Is this really an issue right now? There are so many other issues that or Senators should be focus on. We have soldiers being killed everyday in Iraq. A budget that is spinning out of control, three dollar gas prices, Education and healthcare problem, and the list could go on and on. What is the priority of the people that represent us in Washington? Gay marriage and flag burning, they should be ashamed of themselves. You know its not the republicans that are at fault here, plenty of democrats voted for it too, the ones in those swing states. Seems like their time and resources should be focused on more pressing issues. Am I completely wrong here, or is this just an attempt by the republicans to point finger come election time and say, “look he is not strong on national security, and he not patriotic” It’s a shame that they are using the constitution to secure their own political future. Will Americans see through this? Do any of you feel that is this a real important issue, right now? __________________ Her juju beads are so nice She kissed my third cousin twice Im the king of pomona

06-28-2006, 08:25 AM	#2 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	Like you insinuate, the republicans are probably behind it all To answer your questions: We don't. no. getting re-elected. __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

06-28-2006, 09:03 AM	#5 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	what hypocritical crap from the senate, all this gusto to support the partial bill of rights. pffffttt __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

06-28-2006, 09:13 AM	#6 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	All you have to do is listen to how Limbaugh is spending ALL his time on it so far today. And how it is "the Liberal Left hating America and this is a win for them, meanwhile this is not a cut at your freedom of speaking out... it's an assault to every patriot and true American out there." Now I realize why I don't listen to him..... he covers the Red Herrings and tries to whip people into a frenzy over issues that do not matter nor will ever pass, because they are taking rights and freedoms away. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

06-28-2006, 09:24 AM	#7 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	That it missed by only one vote is a great indication the vote, possibly the entire amendment, was staged and never more than a side-show. It they're willing to make a mockery of the process in this case, how many other votes, while perhaps less obvious, share the same contrived underpinnings? Which if any issues are real to our representatives? __________________ There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

06-28-2006, 08:59 AM	#4 (permalink)
samcol Junkie Location: Indiana	I can't believe they are even discussing this not to mention actually voting on it. What's really scary is that it missed the senate by only 1 vote. In my opinion this is pretty cut and dry. If you can burn your country's flag then you're probably living in a free society, but if you get arrested then you're living in tyranny. Also, I agree with Pan that this was mainly brought up as a distration to other real issues that need to be dealt with.

06-28-2006, 09:44 AM	#9 (permalink)
Gilda 32 flavors and then some Location: Out on a wire.	I consider my opposition to an anti flag burning law a patriotic stance in favor of freedom of speech. Symbols matter, yes, but are less important than those things that they symbolize. Gilda

06-28-2006, 12:06 PM	#14 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	If you think this is a single-party issue, then you obviously haven't been in this country very long... __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

06-28-2006, 12:30 PM	#15 (permalink)
Average_Joe Psycho Location: Under the Radar	Didn't the original pres. Bush pass this Amendment in his first year in office only to have it rescinded a short time later?

06-28-2006, 01:15 PM	#16 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I can't believe Americans actually spend time debating wether it should be legal to burn a piece of fabric... I think something else is burning and it isn't your flag. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

06-28-2006, 10:12 PM	#21 (permalink)
Paq Junkie Location: South Carolina	i'm pretty much against flag burning bc of just the offense it gives to my father adn people like him, people who fought for this country and who sacrificed more than i could imagine for me to be able to sit here and type this out. That said, i'm sure he and i would go burn a flag on the steps of city hall and where-ever we could if a no flag burning amendment passed. I dont' believe he nor any other soldier fought for a gov't to curtail rights in such a manner.. My question echoes that of most here: Why is this even an issue...WTF good is going to do for the american people, why in teh world am i paying out hte arse for a doctor's visit and why are so many people making min wage when congress votes for raises every year. __________________ Live. Chris

06-29-2006, 05:09 AM	#22 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	Flag handling etiquette explicitly encourage flag burning as a proper means of disposal when the flag is no longer fit to be flown. So it seems that a valid reading could lead someone who felt the flag was unseemly due to what it has come to symbolize to burn it. Now, I'll believe these senators are genuine about their concerns when they don't write on flags, or allow anyone to wear them as clothing items, as these behaviors are expressly forbidden according to the rules. __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

06-29-2006, 08:33 AM	#24 (permalink)
Redlemon Devoted Donor Location: New England	Anybody read the Federal Flag Code? Included in there: "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery." "The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown." Perhaps we could work on complying with those first. I mean, the President himself broke "The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature" by autographing a flag. __________________ I can't read your signature. Sorry.

07-02-2006, 05:27 AM	#25 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	I think this a very pressing issue. It is amendments like this and the Gay Marriage amendment that will save our country. /sarcasm __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.

07-02-2006, 11:42 AM	#27 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I think bush even autographed one for an admirer once. I echo all who have said the whole amendment thing is a useless waste of time.

07-02-2006, 09:11 PM	#30 (permalink)
ObieX Pickles Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)	I'm rather sure no one died just for a flag either. Its the ideas behind the country that the flag represents.. not the flag itself. The flag is just cloth. If you destroy the ideas behind the flag then it is meaningless... and that is what a constitutional amendment like this does. __________________ We Must Dissent.

07-03-2006, 01:13 AM	#31 (permalink)
Mobo123 Insane	I've been an attorney since 1985. We all know we have lost susbstantial personal freedoms oh so quietly, in the name of "national security" with out anybody giving a whimper. The loss of our right to burn the flag would be the loss of our most simple, most basic right of free speech. It is beyond my belief that any politician who has read the constitution could even consider such a proposition. I am saddened beyond measure about this. It is incomprehensible that, first, this should come up and second, it lost by only ONE vote. Vote every single one of these assholes out of office. They dont deserve to shine our shoes.

07-03-2006, 02:04 PM	#33 (permalink)
MoonDog Psycho Location: Buffalo, New York	I say burn away. I have no problem with someone letting me know that they are pissed at things, and the flames give away their positions for the snipers (a little humor there!).