Charlatan

As we all know, Paul Martin is out and the Liberal Party, after a recent spanking at the polls (thanks to the sponsorship scandal), is out of power and looking for a new leader. I arrived home to find that there is a growning list of candidates for the leadership.

I must say, I found it facinating that the heirs apparent (John Manley, Frank McKenna, et al.) all backed out of the race early on in the game. The floor is wide open for fresh ideas and new leadership. I think this is a good time to be a Liberal. The party is on the cusp of possibility. I don't think the party has had this much potential for change since 1968 when they elected Pierre Trudeau.

To date, it looks like there are some very intellectual heavy hitters stepping up for a run at the office: Michael Ignatieff, Stephan Dion, Bob Rae, Gerard Kennedy and Ken Dryden. Each of these candidates have impressive resumes and big smarts. For that matter, the other five candidates seem reasonably well seasoned as well (not that they have any likelihood of winning).

I must say that I was not overly surprised to see that Belinda Stronach decided not to run for the leadership. She has the millstone of crossing the floor that would have haunted her every step and if she won the leadership would have cost her the election. It may still haunt cott Brison.

So, this thread is for us to chat about the upcomming leadership race. Who do you think will win? What do the Liberals need to do to turn things around for the party? Who said the most stupid thing in the race this week?

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Ace_O_Spades

Interesting summary HERE:

http://www.uofaweb.ualberta.ca/govre...04&nav01=12052

I agree with you whole heartedly Charlatan, this is a turning point in Canadian political history.

They will either wallow in the mediocrity of the Conservative party of the 90's, or rise up and swat away Harper's weak minority in the next election.

Who do I think will win? God, I have no idea...

Stephane Dion is pushing an environmental agenda... I really don't know how well that will go over, could work for or against.

It's an exciting time, especially if you vote Liberal.

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Feh.

Charlatan

That was a great link Ace. That list of "weighing their options" is an interesting one. I was surprised to see Denis Mills on that list. He was the MP for my riding before Jack Layton beat him. I generally saw him as a backbencher who traded on his proximity to power (i.e. he knew Trudeau). The only thing I can remember him doing, in all the years he was around, was to help organize SARStock.

His ideas for the Toronto waterfront were laughable (in fact I think most did actually laugh at his ideas).

Interesting as well to see names like David Orchard and Scott Brison, former Progressive Conservatives on a list with the likes of Bob Rae and Joe Volpe, current NDPers.

Given the current list of those with their hat in the ring, I'd say it is a toss up between Gerard Kennedy and Michael Ignatieff (with the edge going to Ignatieff).

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

kenneth56

Ace_O_Spades

holy god kenneth

punctuation, spelling, paragraphs

I don't mean to go grammar nazi on you, but you don't have a single break in that entire post... and no, my internet grammar isn't perfect, I never claimed it to be.

[edit]

Upon editing your post for you the best I could, much of what you say falls far beyond the scope of this thread... perhaps you could start a new thread with your concerns about Canadian military...

I agree more needs to be done to aid low income families, but what do you propose exactly?

Oh! and welcome to TFP!

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Feh.

james t kirk

Well, my take on it is more like who it would kill me if the liberals elected to be their leader:

1. Bob Rae

Holy christ, who dug this guy out of mothballs? Last time I checked he was a card carrying socialist and a member of the NDP. Now he wants to be leader of the federal liberals? I think Bay Street would recoil at the thought.

I could never vote for this guy.

I can't help but think that he's all for uniting the liberals with the NDP and then I could never vote for the liberals, ever.

2. Michael Ignatieff

Could never vote for this guy either.

Sorry buddy, you have been out of the country a little to long to be relevant, like 30 years I think is the number being kicked around. After 30 years living in the States, you are bound to change your perspective.

The other thing that bugs me A LOT about Iggie is the way they parachuted him into Etobicoke Lakeshore. There was some other guy who wanted to run for the nomination in the riding, but they played dirty tricks on him when he went to present his candidacy. This guy is an Engineer, with an MBA, who has years of service with the liberals in Etobicoke and volenteering in the community and they wouldn't even answer the door when he showed up with his nomination papers. Everything was in order, the guy shows up at the liberal riding office, he knocks on the door, no-one answers, yet he can hear people inside. Later they say he was disqualified because he didn't have his nomination in order in time. The whole thing is just disgusting.

The other thing is, he was all in favour of the USA invading Iraq. For such an intelligent fellow, he was completely duped by George W. Bush and the chickenhawks and all their WMD fairytales. He wrote a column for the New York times I believe stating that Canada should be in Iraq with the USA. The whole Iraq thing makes a guy like Chretien look like a genius and Iggie look like a fool.

Lastly, I don't know who outside of Toronto will vote for this guy. I don't think he's electable, except maybe in Toronto and Vacouver. Certainly not enough to get the liberals back in office.

As far as guys I do like, Gerrard Kennedy is actually my MPP and he is very highly regarded in the community. He's been active in Toronto for years, though I think he's from Manitoba. He strikes me as a decent sort, though time will tell.

Dryden, hmm, as much as I like the guy, I think it's more for his days as the goalie for my favourite hockey team than it is as a politician. Though he is a native son from Hamilton, so that of course carries some weight in my steel town blue eyes.

Antikarma

Your thoughts on Dion? I won't proclaim to be a political guru, but he's who I'm quietly rooting for. He always struck me as perhaps one of the more intellectual and well spoken members of the party. His speeches during the unveiling of the clarity act seemed very well put together and presented.

__________________

"Whoever you are, go out into the evening,
leaving your room, of which you know each bit;
your house is the last before the infinite,
whoever you are."

Charlatan

I think Dion suffers from having been in the Chretien cabinet... that will be used against him forever.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

percy

I think Dion has the best shot but because he is french and Quebecers will not vote for anyone who isn't a francophone.

Dryden, Rae and Kennedy will look good in the cabinet but not as leaders. Not enough experience, too much baggage and not enough baggage respectively.

Ignatieff is arrogant, pompous and out of touch. On CPAC a reporter asked him to clarify his view from one of his books as to why he thought Quebec was a viable entity for sovereignty and why he supported that position. After the typically elitist blather which is so prevalent in academia was offered, he went on to basically say the reporter should re-read his book because he wasn't equiped enough to gather the point he was trying to get across. Wow!! Just what the Liberals need. More clarity.

cellophanedeity

Apparently Ruby Dhalla is weighing her options. I'd love to see her run for it. Because she's young enough to care about youth activities without being entirely out of touch, appreciates minority and immigrant living because she's gone through it, and to be entirely honest, it would be good to see a female in power.

Mind you, she's a young female minority. Seems like a good way to not get into office.

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who am I to refuse the universe?
-Leonard Cohen, Beautiful Losers

Ace_O_Spades

Unless you want to be Governor General...

Anyway, it's going to be a long campaign to get to December, I'm sure we'll see the candidates who are serious about this make some headway through the summer... It's way too early to call. There are no shoe-in candidates this time around.

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Feh.

highthief

I'm thinking Dion, Brison, and Ignatieff is where this battle is headed.

I have no idea why Bob Rae got involved, after the train wreck he caused in Ontario, the guy would be a major liability.

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

Charlatan

I hear that Ruby Dhalla has thrown her weight behind Ignatieff.

I am starting to think that this might be Ignatieff's race to lose. He might be just the right leaning centrist they need to reclaim power...

All I really care about is that the Official Opposition start acting like one and they won't until they have a leader. And this won't be until December.

That is a loooong time.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Sticky

The Liberal leadership race is boring. Not a single exciting candidate from a list which includes Stanley Cup winner.

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Sticky The Stickman

hagatha

Actually I think Gerald, or is it Gerard, Kennedy looks interesting. I saw him on the local cable channel last night and he was really articulate. And he's young (ish, its all relative). I think I'd like to know more about him. It would be good for the Liberals to get someone who isn't tainted by that evil Chretian, God, that man was vile. I actually hold him personally responsible for the complete annihilation of the party.

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Thats the last time I trust the strangest people I ever met....H. Simpson

metalgeek

The only problem Ignatieff might run into is the more left leaning side of the liberals and the anti-american factions.
He's expressed sympathy and agreement with the americans on several issues, and has been called out on it by several liberals.

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The truth is, wherever you choose to be, it's the wrong place.
Chuck Palahniuk , Diary

Charlatan

My fear is that the Liberals, seeing the success of Harper, will shift even further right.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Sticky

Maybe. I would not be upset with a more right of center middle. We have lived with one that was left of center for the last 15+ years.

The best thing that will hopefully come out of all of this. That I hope that most can agree on is that Canada will end up with more than one party that can win an election. Whether the two (or more) parties are left leaning or right leaning it does not matter as long as there is more than one.
If this is the case then inherently these parties should slowly move more to the center of the Canadian Political spectrum. They will never go all the way but if they want to remain a major party they will have to appela to a large number of Canadians.

Back to the Liberals specifically. I'm sorry but so far this is boring. I don't want to see scandal, name calling, and slander. That is not the type of excitement I am looking for. I am looking for some interesting, passionate people who can convince me that the Liberals are a party worth voting for.

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Sticky The Stickman

Charlatan

Agreed. They need to move on from the scandal ridden past.


As for the Libs being Centre Left... I'd argue they were fiscally right (Paul Martin's budgets through the 90s and early 00s were quite right) and socially left. By my view that makes them smack-dab in the centre.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Sticky

It is great to be in the centre, however, having one party in or near the centre and all other parties considered fringe by to many has got us where we are today - or where we were yesterday.

The Canadian people want center (or can live with centre) but they also want choice. This is why the Liberals are no longer in Power. With the Minority Government we have the conservatives pushing actually abl;e to get some things done but if they try something too contoversial they will be taken down.

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Sticky The Stickman

Leto

Do you think there is an arrogance factor that can contribute to the downfall? . maybe not, If I look back, the arrogance displayed by Trudeau, Mulroney, Chretien and now Harper didn't seem to hurt them, while the easy going attitudes of Clark, Turner, Martin & Campbell seemed to hasten their demise.

I think that controversey may server to deflect the public attention away from the agenda, and that arrogance may help to engender some of this controversey.

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You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Sticky

I guess what I was trying to say is that if they wanted to take away abortion rights (which is one of the things people are afraid of them for) then even without a Liberal Leader you would probably see the NDP, Bloc, and Liberal parties take them down.

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Sticky The Stickman

Antikarma

I dunno, I for one am TIRED of the arrogance. I love Chretien for his CONFIDENCE, but hated the arrogance it led to.

In my next Prime Minister I'm looking for a down to earth "one of the people" attitude. I've always been a Liberal supporter but its HARD to get behind the banner now. Of course there's always been corruption in the government, and there always will be, but the way the Liberals are managing scandal after scandal with deflections.....

I'm too bloody naive to become too involved in government. I honestly, truthfully still believe that democracy is for the people. The everyday people. Lifetime politicians anger me. Why can't we get Joe Blow from down the block who has the nice lawn and the older Volvo to run for politics. Someone honest, who CARES about his constituents?

I've shifted from Liberal to NDP a bit lately based not on platform, but on the fact that the NDP MP we have is goddamned honest. And he WILL stop on the street and talk to you about hockey or taxes. Where are the politicians like THAT?

Sigh, threadjack over

__________________

"Whoever you are, go out into the evening,
leaving your room, of which you know each bit;
your house is the last before the infinite,
whoever you are."

metalgeek

I really hate the whole left right debate, as it never really fully explains a parties stances on things, even fiscally or socially...
Less deficit, but less free trade, whats that, left or right?
decriminalizing marijuana, but restricting the sale of fatty foods, left or right?

The problem with moving on from the scandal ridden past is that in order to truly do so, they need to replace the whole structure that the previous leaders put in place, or else it ends up just dying the hair, rather than replacing the brain if you will.

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The truth is, wherever you choose to be, it's the wrong place.
Chuck Palahniuk , Diary

Sticky

I am not sure about this one...

...but this one is definately left.

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Sticky The Stickman