Marvelous Marv

I already refused to read this snot-rag. Now I'll make it a point not to buy from any company that advertises in it, and let the companies involved know the reason.

It seems I'm not alone in my opinion, either.

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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

ubertuber

A classy response to a tasteless cartoon.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

alpha phi

Wow, let's make satire illegal too!
Boycott freethinking!!!!! It's offensive! just like porn!!

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rofgilead

Seems like the cartoon is saying that Rumsfeld is not giving soldiers their benefits by saying that greivious injuries are not really that bad?

Is this against the military? Seems like it is against Rumsfeld?

Ustwo

No one said it should be illegal, or that the Washing Post should be shut down.

Your post has no point other than to be melodramatic as it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. The Washinton Post is free to print its leftist sluge as it sees fit, people like Marv and myself, and apparently the leaders of the armed forces are allowed to be disgusted by such sluge and even *gasp* write them a polite letter experessing that feeling.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

JumpinJesus

I wonder how much better our lives would be if we attacked dishonest politicians with as much gusto as we attack cartoons that make us mad.

I honestly could care less what the cartoon says. Cartoons don't anger me. A secretary of defense that views the citizens he deigns to protect as bothersome irritants is what angers me.

And I prefer to be spared the melodrama of a bunch of generals taken aback by a cartoon depicting a soldier who's lost all his limbs. Where's their outrage over the REAL soldiers who lose their arms and legs? Are they going to write a letter to our president spelling out their distate for this unjust war?

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"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Ustwo

Please do, its called voting.

We re-elected Bush in 2004.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

alpha phi

I would think the origional post is melodramatic
A condemming letter from the Joint Chiefs of Staff is anything but polite,
It's threating.

If you truely want to boycott everything todo with the Washing Post.
I hope you are prepared to boycott the following.
http://www.cjr.org/tools/owners/gannett.asp

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shakran

We *elected* Bush in 2004. He was *appointed* in 2000.

And frankly, the 2004 election is suspect. He won by a hair's breadth (50.7% of the popular vote is hardly a "mandate"), and he only won because he carried Ohio AND Florida. Florida has well documented election-day problems, and Ohio used machines supplied by a man who promised to deliver Ohio for Bush.

But you don't see suspicions or investigations like that in the "liberal" media, do you?

Marvelous Marv

So it's your opinion the JCS are threatening to bomb the Washington Post building?


Actually, I'm already boycotting all of those. But that's not what I said.

[Edit: I just spotted the Army Times and Navy Times in your list. Thanks--I'm certainly going to pass that information along.]

The Post can print what it wants. However, I can write letters to whomever I want, and they will be sent to those businesses who advertise in the Post, as I said.

If enough others did the same, the "lofty ideals" of the Post would be replaced by whatever it takes to keep its staff salaries secure.

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

Marvelous Marv

Since he was "only elected in 2004," he's eligible for another term, right?

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

alpha phi

No, cut them off from press events, and "neglect" to protect reporters
in danger zones.



It's hard enough to get the truth out of the MSM as is.
That's why they are diversified into liberal, conserative, moderate, pro this, anti-that media organitations.

don't forget washington post co. is also co-owned by knight ridder
Gannet has associations with tribune as well.
As far as advertisers......every major corporation in the world.

The cartoon was satire of rumsfeld's mistreatment of injured solders BTW

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alpha phi

Good lord! haven't we had enough police state yet?

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Mojo_PeiPei

Where is this police state? I was hoping the tinfoil crew had at least quieted around here, ah well back to your regularly schduled delusions...

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Willravel

It's a decent cartoon. Poltical cartoons are illustrations or comic strips containing a political or social message. This does that. It uses a simple metaphore to communicate the reality of the current situation with our military. We are facing a problem. Soldiers are being terribly injured, mamed, and killed, all the while people like Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld explain how well the war is going. This cartoon tries to simplify that problem so that even those who can only glance at a paper can understand. In this "callous depiction", Tom Toles is trying to get people interested in the welfare of our soldiers. And this is a diservice to the readers? Not at all. This is only a diservice to those who benifit from sheilding the American people from the reality of the Second Gulf War.

alpha phi

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...04#post1994682
There has been a major change from the peace officer
to the jack boot law enforcement officer.
If you haven't noticed consider your self lucky, or blind
Every day new police abuse cases are reported

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shakran

Nice try, but anyone, elected to the presidency or not, who serves more than 2 years of a term, is only eligible for one more term. Otherwise, if someone had killed Bush the day after the 2000 "election" Cheney could theoretically be president for 11 years, 364 days.

Ustwo

Meldrama for the win yet again.

We are not in a police state any more now than we were in 2000. Of course the lines are a bit longer at the airports, but I don't recall that as defining a police state.

Please, don't join the moonbats while claiming to be conservative.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

Which definition of Conservative are you using? Are you using the "Conservative" that follows the Republican administration? Or do you mean the "Conservative" who wants smaller government, national sovereignty and isolationsim, and beleives in the Constitution? Thsoea re two very different animals.

alpha phi

Conservative's call for smaller goverment, and more personal freedoms.
Not more laws, and more policing.....
that would be a stateist you are refering to.

In 2000 it was already bad, I'll agree completely there.

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trickyy

the army is stretched pretty thin, which is the point of the cartoon. toles actually seems concerned about the military. he doesn't think it's getting the best "medical advice," blaming those in washington for the gruesome fate of the soldier.

it's fine to question his methods, but it is a misinterpretation to state that he is making light of the situation. it's obviously very serious.


there's no good segue for this, but a split infinitive has penetrated the highest levels of command

ObieX

Those wondering about the police state and not seeing it must have missed all the posts about people being locked up in cages at the RNC and "free speech zones" (cages with barbed wire tops.) A lot of the arguements against these zones were "well Bush didn't make these zones.. the POlICE in those cities chose to do this." So it's either the president or our local/city/state police who did/do this to the citizens. Either way it doesn't make it right.

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We Must Dissent.

pan6467

I have to agree with this assessment and it is quite true. The administration claims to support the troops yet refused to get the needed body armor and armor vehicles until the press had to report how bad the situation was. (Even now our men are not armed and protected to the best of our ability.) We are overanxious to pay Halliburton millions for materials they never deliver and to overcharge on fuel, but to arm and protect the troops......welllllll we'll see if we can work out some funding, it's those damned unpatriotic Dems. you know that prevent our giving the military the money they need.... To medically care for them.....welllllll we'll see if we can work out some funding, it's those damned unpatriotic Dems. you know that prevent our giving the military the money they need.

When the soldiers do get home those that were injured are treated badly and find that the VA hospitals are just meat plants where they do just enough to get the soldier out and home but offer very little assistance, aftercare and therapy.

But after several economic debates with the Right here, what can one expect. The Right doesn't give a damn if the soldier has mental problems from what he has seen, or has lost an arm or a leg. According to the Right, "fuck them, they can support themselves." Just keep your God damned hands off their tax cuts!!!!!!!!

If anyone wants to ever come to Brecksville VA Hospital once a week with me to see the men who come back and the bullshit way our government treats them, you are more than welcome to. I guarantee after you talk to men wounded in action and the vets at Brecksville it will change how "caring about the military" our president truly is.

So, no I see nothing wrong with the cartoon...... maybe the fact that it is so close to the truth and how we truly handle our vets, maybe that is what bothers the Right so much. They just can't handle the truth, because the truth disturbs their glee for tax cuts and heaven forbid someone show them what is truly happening.

As for the Chiefs of Staff letter...... what else are they going to say?

But the telling part is the last sentence in the last true paragraph: "While you or some of your readers may not agree with the war or its conduct, we believe you owe the men and women and their families who so selflessly serve our country the decency to not make light of their tremendous physical sacrifices."

Meanwhile, the Right say "Keep your Goddamned hands of my tax cuts, we sacrifice nothing!"

Meanwhile, the administration keeps cutting vets benefits.

Meanwhile, the troops come home to find the military is done with them and in some cases they treat the vets as second class citizens.

But keep trying to flame the cartoons that point this out...... maybe your consciences find it easier than to face the truth.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

docbungle

Since when are political cartoons supposed to follow rules? Political cartoons are satire. They're here to make a point. To show a perspective. And singling out this newspaper is beyond ridiculous. It's just plain stupid. I mean, you've got to be kidding me. What makes this war soooooo touchy-feely for you people? Anything even remotely derogatory towards the iraq war is seen as NOT SUPPORTING THE TROOPS! TRAITORS!! Cartoons like this are NOTHING new. This is not even close to being something that hasn't been done before, on the offense-o-meter, in all kinds of newspapers.

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Bad Luck City

pan6467

Actually a person can only serve 10 years max as president. 2 years maximum in succession of a president and 2 elected terms.

Amendment 22 was passed because noone wanted a president to serve like FDR did 4 consecutive terms (although he died in early in his 4th).

Even George Washington when he stepped down said that no man should serve more than 8 years.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

BTW Rev. Moon who owns the Wash. Times has given North Korea how many Soviet Nuclear subs and has given the leaders there millions of dollars in support.

Yet, his paper and news is far more accurate, because he is a big time Bush supporter and would never do anything to hurt America.

Wait those statements conflict don't they?

Ahhhh to be a blind supporter of Bush running only on hatred and greed. Attack the paper that actually shows we need to treat vets better, while supporting the paper whose owner gives aid and help to a nation's leaders that Bush himself called part of the axis of terror.

Such hypocrisy, such blindness.... and all for tax cuts and greed. I'd hate to deal with your Karmas.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

ubertuber

Nothing like that is said or implied in the Joint Chiefs' letter. That letter is simply them sticking up for their men who are serving and bearing the brunt of the cost of this war. The Chiefs are simply saying that using those who are paying such a high price to attack the system they are serving is callous. To state that the Joint Chiefs' letter was threatening, followed be these assumptions, is really just histrionics. It's not supported by the text.

This is where I have a problem with the cartoon - your interpretation is NOT what the cartoon is about. The soldier in the cartoon does not represent all servicemen. He represents the health of the US Army as a whole. Look at the chart on the foot of the bed. The cartoonist is making the point that Rumsfeld publicly refuses to acknowledge the bruised and battered condition of the Army, which is more than physical injuries, and has little to do with individual benefits. Toles (the artist) is pointing out that an assessment of the state of the armed forces that does not take recruiting, supply, funding and logistical challenges into account is naive.

His points are good ones, but made in a tasteless (and obviously ineffective way). He chose to use the image of a maimed soldier to represent the Army as a whole (again, notice the chart on the foot of the bed). However, this is not done in a clear enough manner. Nearly every person in this thread has identified the depicted soldier as representing all soldiers and that the metaphor is over benefits and treatments stemming from injuries. However, the shocking image of a completely maimed individual is the focus of the image, as it is guaranteed to produce sympathy, outrage, and/or revulsion. THIS is why I feel the cartoon is tasteless and poorly done. It is also why I feel that the Joint Chiefs' measured and polite letter is a classy response, as they object to their injured men being used for shock value.

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

pan6467

I wouldn't say it was ineffective, quite the contrary, it is very effective. It has people making interpretations and talking about it. That's the purpose of editorial art, to get people to talk about it, examine the issue it brings out. And this cartoon does a damn good job of doing just that.

I also think it amazing noone has talked about the little talk at the bottom saying, "I prescribe you be stretched then, we don't define that as torture."

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

ubertuber

If you define effective as "memorable", then I'm with you. I used the word ineffective because the cartoon is sufficiently unclear that the controversy has centered around a point that is a little different from what the artist indicated.

So in essence, no argument with you here, but I just wanted to clarify exactly what I meant.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

roachboy

i frankly dont see the problem with the cartoon: but i kinda like toles.
that some of the conservatives above would use a POLITICAL CARTOON to justify refusing to read the post, and by extension, i assume, to not deal with information that is not wrapped in a nice conservative ideological gloss is absurd.

1. the main marketing line from the right about the war in iraq is "support our troops"---it is a clever line---it bypasses the myriad problems with the justificatino for bushwar and would replace political questions---serious, unresolved political questions---with some kind of immediate identification with the american victims of this absurd war--the troops on the ground.
there is nothing normal about this line: it is marketing of war.
during those periods when the conservatives were feeling less--o what's the word--marginal, none of them who support the colonal adventure in iraq hesitated to extend the logic of this marketing slogan to its conclusion: if you criticize bushwar, you disrespect the troops blah blah blah

at the point this administration chose to market its brutal, absurd and ineptly run little adventure on these line, they also politicized the image of "the troops"---and if you want to talk about tastelessness, the conversation should start with this.

but for the Outraged Conservatives above, no thought is given to the politicized nature of this kind of image, no thought is given to the fact that it is their boy and his band of incompetents who politicized it.

and what could possibly be more tasteless than marketing war?

2. the obvious immediate target is rumsfeld and the various assessments of the impact of this misbegotten colonial adventure on the state of the military. this has been said above---i am agnostic on the question of whether the american military is stretched thin or not, simply because i do not feel competent to evluate the various claims either way. but the issue is out there, and it, too, is politicized largely as a function of administration actions. toles did not invent the visual rheotric of the cartoon, he did not put these images into play---bushwar and its associated marketing campaigns, subsequent information and responses set this up.

3. some may find the cartoon offensive, but so what?
it's a POLITICAL CARTOON folks, and giving offense is part of the stock in trade. consider the limitations of the form: one panel.
that's not much space.
that the knickers of some conservatives are in a twist over this is kinda funny.
must be a good cartoon---in that it was able to move beyond the limits of a single frame and the limits of the postioning of political cartoons in the post and into the public sphere as the object of debate.
the cartoon worked, folks, and this debate about "taste" simply confirms its effectiveness.

that the joint chiefs wrote a letter about it is amazing to me.
i kinda wonder if the letter is real--because it is a stupid move on their part----in that it draws attention to and in a backhanded way inflates the significance of a cartoon--had they found it offensive really, they would have been well advised to ignore it.

for example, i might not have known about the cartoon had it not been for the exchange and the recap of it that marv posted above.
it would have passed through the pipelines of image debris and disappeared like so much else does.
responding as a body to tom toles' cartoon was simply a stupid idea.

4. propositions concerning "good taste" from folk on the right are self-negating.
the right as a political bloc has shown itself to be hostile to the arts for years, since the reagan period.
the right has used its backwater standards of "good taste" to undermine or eliminate funding for the arts.

on the other hand, that this kind of thin-skinned puritanism is out there can be seen as a good opportunity---scandal often legitimates and extends the reach of the object at its center--far more people know about serrano's "piss christ" because of the lather produced in conservativeland than otherwise would have: far more people have seen it that otherwise would have...the conservative lather about "taste" is good pr.

side note: one of roachboy's alter egos is a musician. one of the formations in which that guy works uses sounds that gets grouped under the cateogry of "noise" or "noise music"---nothing would help that guy's musical cause like this would:

http://www.mothersagainstnoise.us/

it's a hoax, but i really wish it wasnt....

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Jinn

Are you the artist? Do you know what he planned to "indicate?" At first glance, I thought it was patently clear what the artist was depicting. And yes, you're right -- you COULD say that he was representing the whole Army with one soldier, but what would you prefer? A drawing of 100 Army soldiers maimed and a doctor saying the same? would it have been more clear? One is enough for me (and apparently too much for the Generals), and it, along with the chart, clearly shows that he's talking about the Army as a whole.

What is the difference between "all servicemen" and "The US Army as a whole" ?

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

ubertuber

I'm not the artist. I think you already suspected that. Obviously this is only one man's interpretation and opinion - and I only write it to explain my first reaction to the cartoon as being tasteless (post #2). My assessment of what the artist "indicated" is based on 2 pictures within the cartoon and the small bit of text at the bottom - material that all of us can see plainly. I think all of us are qualified to give our opinions and interpretations. There's room in the world for more views than mine.

At any rate, in my mind the difference between all servicemen and the US Army as a whole is that the latter includes the health of logistical, recruiting, funding, public perception, and supply systems (as I indicated in post #27). This distinction is why I don't think the cartoon is clear in its target - most TFP readers seem to be focussing on individual soldiers and medical/injury related issues rather than the system, which I interpret to be the basis for the cartoon.

Roachboy (post #30, point 4) - if you are talking to me as a "conservative" who attacks the cartoon based on taste issues, I hope this post clarifies that my assessment of the artist's taste has a lot to do with the fact that I think the cartoon is sloppily targeted while using an incendiary metaphor, which I see as indicative of artistic laziness. Also (if you are speaking to me), I don't appreciate being painted by your rather wide conservative brush as if my motivations and judgments can be explained by your idea of contemporary conservative ideology, which may or may not even apply to me. In particular, your comments on the relationship of conservatives to the art world are off base - you are aware of my relationship to the arts. Not only that, but your characterization is far too simple, as it fails to acknowledge that some of the periods of highest financial support for the NEA have been during Republican administrations (which also has nothing to do with me). If you weren't speaking to me, then I apologize for taking offense - I hope you understand that I don't like being the target of generalizations.

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Marvelous Marv

Right. Just like when we were told that anyone who refuses to see a movie starring Alec Baldwin or Sean Penn is "against the right of free speech."

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

Seaver

No... just no. There is not a single Hummer in Iraq that isn't armored anymore. The closest to it are the Medical Hummers, and those are relegated by the Geneva Convention so we can't. I dont know where you're getting your information, but ask some of those you talk to in the hospital that got back within the last 6months.

Once again... no. VA hospitals are amazing places, I dont know how yours is ran but I've been amongst them all my life. People are even going back to war now missing limbs because of the great service and their belief in the war.

People pay to see Alec Baldwin or Sean Penn?

Bill O'Rights

Tweeeeet!
Flag on the play.
Who is going back to war...missing limbs? They may believe in the war. Hell, I'll even go so far as to say that they received excellent care from the VA (wouldn't happen in Omaha, but I'll bite). But noone, that is missing a limb(s), is going back to war. If they are, then our military is stretched far thinner than I ever imagined.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

roachboy

uber: i wasn't actually directing what i said at you--i thought that yours was a reasonable position--the way in which i disagree with it relies on more general propositions, and so works at a different level. most of the "conservatives do x" type statements were directed at the posts from other folk.

marv: your last post would be what we in the biz call a non-sequitor. try again.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

trickyy

hey Bill,
i could have sworn i've seen stories of people going back to iraq with a prosthetic.

> turns out it was not a full limb, but pretty interesting nonetheless
http://www.google.com/search?hs=ma3&...aq&btnG=Search

pan6467

Just a quick question, had he made the point clear, would the cartoon still achieve the purpose to bring out thought and debate?

I think it works better when the interpretation goes to the viewer not the artist, and this is a good case of it.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

I have a question... why are 4 generals and 2 admirals getting ansey and bothered about a poltical cartoon? Don't they have jobs?

Elphaba

Will, I think the answer to your question is also the source "event" of the political cartoonist. Recently, Rumsfeld pronounced the military in great shape even though a recently published Pentagon report and a commander in Iraq said otherwise.

I believe Toles was simply harpooning Rumsfeld for denying what his own people are telling him. Hence a memo from the Perfumed Princes in defense of the chief. That's my guess and 2 cents worth.