gump

hey everybody hows it going? i need a little photography help so i wanted to see if anyone could assist me. the company i work for needs to take some photos of some knives and accessories for their website and catalogs. they want to do it in house and have asked me (appointed actually) to do some research and get the equipment. here's an example of what they are wanting to do... LINK

cutting the knives or whatever out from the background isnt a big deal i can do it in a few minutes with photoshop. i just don't know what camera, lighting, flash or just general setup to get these high contrast photos. i would appreciate any info. thanks

ngdawg

No Photoshopping necessary. Use flat white matboard for your background.
If you don't have lightboxes handy, use two clamp-style desk lamps with twist-necks. They should be placed slightly above your set-up opposite each other and not shining directly on the objects-that'd produce glare. To diffuse them, try placing white pillowcases or flimsy cloth over them.
Don't use a flash-glare. Use a light meter and set your camera's aperature accordingly. As for the type of camera, DSLR is best-you can see what you did immediately, but any digital that allows for a decent range of manual shutter speed adjusting and f-stops will work. By using the camera and its memory card as a hard drive, you can work directly off that through your computer and set size, dpi, adjust color,etc. before saving the files. Be sure to set the camera's image size to its largest jpg-it's always easier to size down and not always possible to size up without losing quality.
Take several shots, readjusting your aperature settings a few numbers down and up to get the balance you want, adjust the lights around and take the shots from every angle you can think of.

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shakran

Do laundry, and grab the used dryer sheet. Use that. It'll smoke and smell like fabric softener at first, so you might wanna run it through a couple of dryer cycles. Excellent diffuser.

ngdawg

Cool idea! White handkerchiefs work too but not everyone has those...

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gump

hey guys thanks for the info. (dont laugh at me cuz im stupid) whats a lightbox? i'm kind of an amatuer at all this. what would be a good camera choice say in the <$1000 range?

ngdawg

Actually, my terminology was a bit off-correct term is 'softbox': http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/RM3122/ Shakran's and my suggestions for using lamps draped with cloth or dryer sheets replaces the softbox effect-somewhat.
As for a camera, everyone has different tastes and desires. Best thing to do is go to review sites such as Steve's Reviews or PopPhoto where cameras are tested, not just peer-reviewed. Once you've done that, I'd suggest going to a local store and actually looking at the camera, feeling it, checking out its ease of use.
Keep in mind that the megapixel ratings are only a minimal guide-a 6.1mp DSLR of high quality will outperform a 10mp point'n'shoot, but, as I stated before, using any camera as a hard-drive(working directly off it and not uploading first to the computer) will increase your options for optimal saving of files; even a default jpeg of 72dpi in a camera can be saved as a tiff 300dpi through Photoshop or ImageReady, etc.(300dpi is print-quality. For website usage, 72dpi is standard)
There are a myriad of sites and forums that will give guidance and suggestions about setups and camera mode usage. Read, read, read!

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Daemon1313

If you are just taking pictures of small objects, build yourself a light box from some PVC tubing. There are dozens of sites with examples. This is one that I grabbed off the first page that came up from google. http://www.pbase.com/wlhuber/light_box_light_tent

As far as cameras goes. If you don't know how to use one fully, do not get a DSLR. You will waste a lot of money and honestly the DSLR will probably not produce as good of photos as a point and shoot. The only feature you will really need is a good white balance control or the ability to take RAW photos and do your white balance on your PC.

As far as specific camers goes, I would suggest you go to an electronics store and get a feel for what style you like and go from there. For example I prefer a larger bodied camera that I can get a grip on but, my wife prefers the much small camers.

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gump

the homemade lightbox looks like a pretty good idea i think i'm going to give it a try. thanks again for the comments i guess i'm just going to start reading and play with this point and shoot see what i can come up with.

cadre

For less than 1000 dollars you could hire a professional like me (and by 'like me' I mean with training) to take the photos for you. Someone that already has the equipment and will get it right without having to do research. Just my two cents.

Other than that, what they said and use the internet. There are many sources out there if you use google or something similar.

Oh yeah, and if you're going to get pvc you can make squares and stretch fabric around them to make diffusers, we use something like this in the studio and they work well. If you can lean them against something or get them to stand up you won't have problems with the fabric burning and smoking and all that.

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gump

they thought about hiring someone but over the course of a year there may be over 1000 different items which would cost mucho dollars. so learning to do it in house was the only option. i'm probably going to built my light box out of metal conduit instead of pvc. that way it will be more rigid and you could strech the fabric tight on all sides.

serlindsipity

do your homework on dealing with shiny items. the little reflective thiing youll get is not a pretty thing to deal with.

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gump

i kind of thought of that so what i had in mind was spray-painting it flat white. that way the glare or reflection wouldn't be an issue.

i was googling what you mentioned are you refering to a certain camera or software? that would be very handy if i got that working.

cadre

I think that if you looked into it you would find that it's not as much as you and your company think. At least it doesn't have to be. One of the most important parts of being a professional photographer is working with the client to find something that works.

Anywho, working with pvc wouldn't be all that unstable since you don't need to stretch the fabric that much but yeah metal conduit works. Have you gotten a camera yet? A used digital camera with a short macro lens would make things really easy. I believe that Serlindsipity was referring to knives and such with her comment by the way. You need to pay attention to how you position them in relation to lights and your camera because they are reflective.

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gump

you are right cadre... sorry Serlindsipity i thought you meant the shininess of the conduit. yes its hard getting the lighting right because the blades reflect so much. i have also decided not to go with conduit, pvc just has attachments than conduit. our store is a hardware/knife store and pvc plumbing is endless.

no camera yet i'm still looking. im wanting to get one that will do what ngdawg mentioned. having the photo on the screen without having to transfer everytime would save alot of time.

cadre

Go Nikon. I use an older D70 and you can probably find them around for a good price.

As far as getting the light how you want it, it's important to have two lights or more from different angles and to have them diffused. Other than that it's just playing with the positioning until it looks right.

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ngdawg

Any digital camera will work as a 'hard drive'. You simply use the USB that comes with it(plugging it into your computer like any other hardware) and work with your photos from that, then save them to your computer.
A couple of things to keep in mind when doing so: Always take the photos at the largest setting the camera allows(if there is no RAW or TIFF choice).
By doing this, you can then reduce the physical size of the photos and increase the dpi if they need to be printed out. By working directly off the memory card, you have a lot more 'free reign' over what you want. For example, my previous camera was a 4.0mp that only shot in jpg with a dpi(dots per inch) default of 72. The largest setting on it is 2272x1704(approx. 40x27 inches). Working off the camera directly, I reduced the size to 8x10 and increase the dpi to 300, essentially compressing the pixels to give me a clear print. I also would adjust the pictures' contrast and brightness , crop when necessary(before resizing) and do whatever they needed, then save to a folder. For whatever reason, these 'tricks' don't work as well if the photos are first uploaded to a folder on the pc-they would pixellate upon printing. I got this tip from one of my professors after he'd seen a couple of my early prints and noted their blurriness due to pixellating.
You don't need special software; I would advise though, that you get the largest capacity memory card your camera can use so that you don't have to empty it after every shoot. Even if you don't need to print, increasing the dpi to 100 will give you a sharper image without adding too much more 'weight' to the file. Keep in mind that an image at 72dpi can be made smaller but can't be made larger, which is why it's a standard web-based setting-it helps avoid 'stealing' for print from websites. That and it keeps the website space usage to its minimum.

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abaya

Okay, this is news to me! We have a DSLR... Canon Rebel XT (EOS) and I have always just uploaded to a folder after a day out shooting. Now you're saying that if I try to print any of these photos, they're going to pixellate? At what size does this start to become noticeable (8 x 10?).

I know I can shoot in RAW format with this camera, but I guess I don't know what the use would be... unless I was actually a professional. Perhaps one of you can educated me a bit.

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Daemon1313

There really is no need or benefit to reading a memory card through the camera other than avoiding cluttering your hard drive. If anything, you're just going to slow yourself down. Basically the camera just acts as a really expensive card reader.

I typically work with two memory cards. As one gets close to being full, I look for a natural break and swap the cards. Stick the full one in the card reader and let ACDSee suck off all the files while I keep shooting.

When you're printing you're typically looking for 250-300 ppi. Typically your printer is the limiting factor here, though. The calculation is pretty easy after that. If you want a 10" wide print at 300 ppi, then you need it to be at least 3000 pixels wide.

A RAW image is just that, a raw image. It's basically the un-altered data from your camera's sensor. Typically in any other format, your camera will adjust various aspects of you image to make it look good. RAW is very powerful but a royal pain at the same time. I usually use it in situations like mixed light sources, to get the white balance right. This covers some of the details better; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_image

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ngdawg

If you're uploading directly without first checking the sizes, the photos are probably defaulting at 72dpi, not a good print number(your edges will pixellate even at smaller sizes, like 4x6, which were what mine were at first). Other than a 2x2 inch picture, some pixellating will be noticed at that low dpi, specially red and intricate black and whites. More importantly, a photo at 72dpi, regardless of its size in inches, can not be enlarged(think taking 72 dots and first they're covering an inch(which is pretty spaced out) and you want to print 4 inches of that kind of coverage.Space=blur). WYSIWYG.
With RAW, you can choose your uploaded size, format and dpi before saving to folders with no distortion. It's a pain to work with because it's 'unprocessed' and completely open to your preferences but those are also the strong points of it. But, I would be willing to bet that, if you see the data on the RAW file, it will say 72dpi, so change it to the 250-300 as Daemon stated, before you save the file.
If one doesn't have a reader, the camera is a necessity for that(I don't have any other hardware for the cards). I thought my instructor was confused about my camera, so I tried his way(working off the card) and the 'common' way(uploading to the pc first) and his was a vast improvement. I can print very sharp 11x14" photos(have to be for shows) from a midrange 4mp. Even with my new camera in RAW format, I've gotten to using the card itself and only uploading what's truly finished.
I do the same thing with cards, too, by the way. I don't reuse them, really. I delete what's not necessary, leaving me some extra space, but I always buy new 1g flashcards. I'm thinking I need bigger ones!

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cadre

I personally have never had the problem you are describing but I think your problem is that certain programs resize and change your photos when they're moved from your memory card to your hard drive. Most programs however allow you to turn that off. For me the best thing is to shoot on the largest file size you have and get multiple cards if you need the extra space. When you're done with the shoot you can then import the photos and edit them in a photoshop-type program.

As far as being able to see what your images look like as your shooting, almost all DSLRs have lcd screens on the back so you can see if you're getting the right effect.

By the way, they make cards that are 10 gigs and up now. I use 2 and 4 gig cards and don't have problems (I also empty them after shoots).

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shakran

This is why you should not use programs to transfer pictures. Get a card reader. It'll treat your flash card like a hard drive.

Shoot the highest resolution your camera will shoot. You can always downsize it later, but you can't ever upsize it without quality loss.

Today's average DSLR will easily do a large photograph with no detectable fuzziness. The weak link in most photography setups these days is the printer.

serlindsipity

as for printers, if youre going big, go Epson. Its the industry standard currently unless you want to go giclee and sell everything you own to do that. but i doubt youll need to do that...

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ngdawg

No, my camera (and many others, even with RAW) default at 72dpi, even at the largest sized image(my Minolta largest size is 3008x2000p RAW-approx.27x41 inches). This is unacceptable when doing work that goes into poster-sized work, as some of mine has, so by working directly off the card, regardless of the camera's default, I have control over the image size, print size, format and 'weight'. I use Irfanview for viewing and saving, Photoshop for editing. Neither 'resizes' what comes off the camera(and I have no idea what would but would strongly suggest no one use those).
It's not a 'problem' at all; most people don't realize they have control over what their camera puts out and take it as it comes, not realizing their options are much greater for improving the quality of even the most basic point-n-shoots and maximizing their DSLR's higher quality. Those of us who don't have card readers don't have to lament that fact-our camera IS our card reader.
Shakran is right about saving as large as you can; I generally print 8x10's but save at approx 11x14; I've enlarged photos that were 8x10 to 11x14, but only simple ones-the more detail in the shot, the more it falls apart when enlarged. Also, if RAM allows, saving as TIFF allows for the least amount of distortion if resizing is needed, but it's a bugger of a file-about 4 times the size in weight as a comparable jpg. and can seriously bog a pc down if it's inadequate-like mine is

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cadre

I use a Nikon program to transfer my pictures and it works fine. In fact many of my professors and the photographers I learn from use the same program. The one thing I know about such programs though is they do change your photos if you don't turn off those settings. It's kind of like cameras being set to the lowest dpi it's a default in order to help you but you really should turn it off.


As for printing, I agree Espon is the way to go. I currently have multiple epson printers for different purposes and they do a great job at printing if you have the settings right.

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Daemon1313

One importent thing to remember about dpi with digital media is that is meaningless until you print it. A lot of image editors confuse users by mixing dpi in with resizing.

This site has a good breakdown of what dpi means in the digital world:
http://www.rideau-info.com/genealogy/digital/dpi.html

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ngdawg

Agreed. I explained it to my son thusly: 72 dots per inch leaves more empty space than 300 dots per inch and when each are printed, the less 'space' the less blur or pixellating(printing something red really illustrates this difference). I use 72dpi for web, 300dpi for print, regardless of the size of the print being made. Interestingly, magazines and books use 600dpi minimum(according to a couple of my professors).

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gump

a little update on my photo taking....

we constructed a lightbox last week and took a few pictures testing it out. this was took with a sony 6.0 megapixel point and shoot. i think it turned out ok we still got to play with it a little more. havent decided on a camera yet but leaning toward a nikon d80. thanks for eveyone's comments and conversation!

cadre

Looks pretty good but here are my suggestions. Shoot at a smaller aperture (higher number) like f/22 or f/32, that will bring the folder or whatever that is in the background more into focus. The camera you're using may not allow you to do that but the D80 will.

Also, add light to the background, you can create a pure white background but you will have to put light on it without getting it on the subject. This is easier the farther away your subject is from the background.

Lastly, when you get the D80, shoot on manual. If you take the picture on an automatic setting you will have problems with the exposure because of the white background. Put the camera on manual and meter just the knife, that won't work perfectly, but it's the easiest way I can explain it to you. You can mess with it from there based off how the images look on the lcd screen on the back of the D80.

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serlindsipity

make sure the camera, the knife, and the folder and parallel. Especially the foder, cuz the left side is blurry and right side is not and thats a product of either someothing being caddywampus or your camera is freaking out.

oh, and to get everythign bright true with and true color, use levels. and a color card, but thats only if you need accurate colors produced.

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cadre

A smaller aperture will help with that too.

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gump

we have been playing a little more and i think we're doing better. the lastest snap-shot...

ngdawg

Clarity and color and sharpness are good. Angle is way off, but that could be fixed with PS by making a duplicate layer, adding guides and using transform/rotate, then cropping it. For something like that, it's important to shoot in dead center to avoid angling.

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Daemon1313

I had basically the same thought with one difference, it either needs to be dead centered and straight or make it much more angled. That would make it look more intentional and it might be easier than trying to get it perfectly square.

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cadre

This could work as it is if there was more negative space but it is not really the type of photo he sounds like he wants so I agree that when you shoot you need to do it dead center.

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motdakasha

You need to work on perspective control.

Also:
Did you mean: define collectible
Web definitions for collectable
collectible: things considered to be worth collecting (not necessarily valuable or antique)
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn - Definition in context

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gump

we've been working on perspective control; sometimes its hard getting it straight. i'm a little confused motdakasha about your question on collectables. i can tell you there are thousands of knife collectors out there and some knives sell for alot of money. i've seen some of the old case knives build between 1940-1964 sell for couple thousand dollars depending on the handle and pattern.

motdakasha

The proper spelling is collectible.

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gump

sorry brain fart .... collectible

thanks

cadre

I still think you'd be better off working out a contract with a photographer but that's just me.

You need to work on the focus as well. Use a smaller aperture. If you don't know what that means, start reading.

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motdakasha

contract with a photographer who has the needed studio and equipment.


and fyi: the product actually misspells collectible. (that's what i've been trying to point out)

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