God is not all-powerful. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

rlbond86 · 11-30-2005, 09:53 PM

Here is something I thought of the other day:

God cannot both be all-good and all-powerful.

Take the Holocaust, a clearly horrible tragedy in which 12 million were mercilessly slaughtered due to the will of an evil dictator.

God did not intervene.

This leads to three possibilities:

1. God wanted the Holocaust to happen: God, for some reason, MADE the Holocaust happen. It was His will. But clearly a good God would not murder 12 million of His creations, especially after that whole rainbow-covenant thing, if you believe that stuff.

2. God did not intervene for some reason: One reason or another, God decided not to intervene. However, it seems odd that a good God would be apathetic to such a situation. Thus the only likely solution for this possibility is the "clockmaker" God, who created the universe but now does not intervene in events, or only works "small" miracles. Yet then, God would have restricted His powers and thus would no longer be all-powerful. But if God does not intervene at all, why pray at all? Unless he still works small miracles. Just don't ask for world peace

3. God could not intervene: God was powerless to stop Adolf Hitler, for some reason. Perhaps He cannot exert such a large influence, or perhaps something else. Or perhaps He is gone. Or stripped of His powers. Or being held captive in a God-power-proof prison. Or never existed at all. The point is, if this is the case, clearly He is not all powerful.

What does everyone else have to say? Am I overlooking something? Personally, I believe the clockmaker idea, but would be interested to hear other interpretations.

No Bible stuff, please.

pan6467 · 12-01-2005, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlbond86

Here is something I thought of the other day:

God cannot both be all-good and all-powerful.

Take the Holocaust, a clearly horrible tragedy in which 12 million were mercilessly slaughtered due to the will of an evil dictator.

God did not intervene.

This leads to three possibilities:

1. God wanted the Holocaust to happen: God, for some reason, MADE the Holocaust happen. It was His will. But clearly a good God would not murder 12 million of His creations, especially after that whole rainbow-covenant thing, if you believe that stuff.

2. God did not intervene for some reason: One reason or another, God decided not to intervene. However, it seems odd that a good God would be apathetic to such a situation. Thus the only likely solution for this possibility is the "clockmaker" God, who created the universe but now does not intervene in events, or only works "small" miracles. Yet then, God would have restricted His powers and thus would no longer be all-powerful. But if God does not intervene at all, why pray at all? Unless he still works small miracles. Just don't ask for world peace

3. God could not intervene: God was powerless to stop Adolf Hitler, for some reason. Perhaps He cannot exert such a large influence, or perhaps something else. Or perhaps He is gone. Or stripped of His powers. Or being held captive in a God-power-proof prison. Or never existed at all. The point is, if this is the case, clearly He is not all powerful.

What does everyone else have to say? Am I overlooking something? Personally, I believe the clockmaker idea, but would be interested to hear other interpretations.

No Bible stuff, please.

God gave man free will. He knew what the outcome would be, the Allies would win. Good triumphed over evil..... It could have very easily have had a different outcome.

IMHO, God allows evil like the Holocaust but gives man the chance to detroy it. Whether we do or not is up to us.

What lessons would we learn if God always interferred?

We have to learn for ourselves so that we may grow and learn from the past.

He's like a parent and we the children, yes he could spank and call time outs, or he can allow us the freedom to learn and to correct ourselves.

We made it this far, I don't think we are doing too badly.

rlbond86 · 12-01-2005, 12:52 AM

an excellent point.

But would God really simply sit there and watch as millions of helpless people died? I mean, it wasn't the prisoners' faults!

Also, if God knew the Allies would win, that would mean that there is destiny. If there is destiny, we'll never have time travel, or someone would have shown up by now

I don't think God could know what is going to happen, as that is the unknowable. Even if He does, at some point he must not have known.

Of course there's the argument that God lives outside the universe, but then, prayer wouldn't "reach" him correctly... if he has already experienced the future, he cannot change the past without changing its future, perhaps killing future people with a prayer He answers.

nezmot · 12-01-2005, 08:07 AM

Why should God care about what happens to us on this tiny little planet, a mere mote in the zastness of the universe? How many other planets might there be with other forms of intelligent life on them, the odds (depending on who you talk to) suggest the number is going to be very high indeed. 12 million slaughtered? It would be like nothing more than seeing a spider eat a fly - would you interfere if you saw a bird eat a worm, or a dog chase a cat? How often would you have to interfere if you wanted to impose your own version of justice in the small space around you, say in your own house and garden? You don't give a damn about the bugs that creep and crawl in your lawn, why should you, and why should God?

Lebell · 12-01-2005, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlbond86

But would God really simply sit there and watch as millions of helpless people died? I mean, it wasn't the prisoners' faults!

The example of Christ teaches us that as brutal and evil as we are to one another in this reality, there is a greater reality where such things are of little or no importance.

Mantus · 12-01-2005, 08:49 AM

Of course if you look at "good" as something purely subjective then it clears everything up.

AVoiceOfReason · 12-01-2005, 08:50 AM

Seeing something like this reminds me of what C.S. Lewis wrote in GOD IN THE DOCK. I've inserted [man] for some clarification in the quote that is apparent from the context of the statements:

"The ancient man approached God (or even the gods) as the accused person approaches his judge. For the modern man, the roles are reversed. He [man] is the judge: God is in the dock. He [man] is quite a kindly judge; if God should have a reasonable defense for being the god that permits war, poverty and disease, he [man] is ready to listen. The trial may even end in God's acquittal. But the important thing is that man is on the bench and God in the dock."

To ask the question posed here (or those of that nature) are to assume the role of Judge over the Creator.

guthmund · 12-01-2005, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlbond86

Of course there's the argument that God lives outside the universe, but then, prayer wouldn't "reach" him correctly... if he has already experienced the future, he cannot change the past without changing its future, perhaps killing future people with a prayer He answers.

Why wouldn't prayer 'reach' him correctly? You're assuming that God has to play by His own rules, no? For that matter what rules? How does prayer reach God correctly in the first place? What stops him from 'hearing' them once he steps outside of time....?

As to the destiny/free will thing, I'll just say, I think maybe God (again, assuming that he exists) is just a really good judge of character. He didn't know that the Allies would win WWII because that's the way he planned it, but rather he knew the people involved and was sure that they would make the decisions they did to end it. He's just playing a guessing game, but since he's all-knowing and all-seeing (according to books were not supposed to mention) then he's not just a good guesser, he's an infallable guesser. Is it still free will if someone else knows with certainty what you'll do?

Willravel · 12-01-2005, 11:02 AM

The Judeo-Christian God isn't human, and his understandings and moralities may be beyond our understanding. That's a non answer, but it's what the bible gives us.

Lebell · 12-01-2005, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

The Judeo-Christian God isn't human, and his understandings and moralities may be beyond our understanding. That's a non answer, but it's what the bible gives us.

Hrmmm, not exactly correct or incorrect.

If anything, the Bible tells us that we are very intimately related to God:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gen 1:27

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

BigBen · 12-01-2005, 12:29 PM

First off, can I please chide you in your qualifying statement:

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlbond86

No Bible stuff, please.

I want you to clarify that statement. Shall I talk about the sun without using the keywords :Warm, Bright, or Star? Is this a game of Taboo?
Are you suggesting that an argumnet that refers to the Bible is not worth reading, or are you trying to keep this discussion in the realm of scientific philosophy, using postulates and reductions of logic?

No, I am not about to quote scripture, but since my understanding of a higher power comes from the New International Version of the Bible, can I still participate in the discussion? If so, let me continue:

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlbond86

...God cannot both be all-good and all-powerful.

Take the Holocaust, a clearly horrible tragedy in which 12 million were mercilessly slaughtered due to the will of an evil dictator.

God did not intervene.

Who says God did not intervene? You are making a broad statement, and I am putting the justification back on you. Please prove to me that God did not intervene. Maybe he did. Maybe he prevented the slaughter of millions more, but you and I could never know that, because we were not there, and cannot begin to understand the ways in which God works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlbond86

This leads to three possibilities:

1. God wanted the Holocaust to happen: God, for some reason, MADE the Holocaust happen. It was His will. But clearly a good God would not murder 12 million of His creations, especially after that whole rainbow-covenant thing, if you believe that stuff.

No, I believe in the whole "Free will" scenario, and Hitler (along with the Nazi party) were exercising their fucked-up-sense-of-free-will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlbond86

2. God did not intervene for some reason: One reason or another, God decided not to intervene. However, it seems odd that a good God would be apathetic to such a situation. Thus the only likely solution for this possibility is the "clockmaker" God, who created the universe but now does not intervene in events, or only works "small" miracles. Yet then, God would have restricted His powers and thus would no longer be all-powerful. But if God does not intervene at all, why pray at all? Unless he still works small miracles. Just don't ask for world peace

I agree most with this argument, but would re-word the explanation entirely.

Yes, God created the universe.

No, God does not intervene in events. Not because God can't, but because God knows everything, front and back, inside and out. God knows every atom, where it has been, where it is, and where it will go. God has seen it all, and has a Grand Plan worked out. Your questioning God's powers works into the plan, believe it or not. It all comes together at the end. With the end seen as Good, and as according to God's plan, there is no need to intervene in the rest, unless it is in THE PLAN.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlbond86

3. God could not intervene: God was powerless to stop Adolf Hitler, for some reason. Perhaps He cannot exert such a large influence, or perhaps something else. Or perhaps He is gone. Or stripped of His powers. Or being held captive in a God-power-proof prison. Or never existed at all. The point is, if this is the case, clearly He is not all powerful.

In my theological perspective, that is simply not the case. Personally, I belive the following:

God can intervene, but doesn't, because it is all acccording to plan.
God is all powerful, and can intervene, for any reason.
God can exert such influence to affect anything, at any time. There is no such thing as "Too large an influence" to God.
God is here. Right now. With you and me. And that sick little kid in Bangladesh who is starving to death as I type these words, God is with that child.
The idea of God being stripped of powers, or in a "God-Proof" anything does not compute in my logic. It simply cannot happen, like the square root of a negative number. It is something to imagine, but does not work out.

Well. That is all. God allowed the Holocaust (and every other bad thing that has ever happened to anyone, ever) to happen because it works out in the End, which God has seen. We cannot comprehend this. We look up and question, like a child to a parent... "Why are you so mean? Why won't you help me? Where were you when I needed you?"

The parent smiles, and knowing that everything has a purpose, cannot explain it to the child. "I did that to show you that I love you. You will understand when you are older."

Lebell · 12-01-2005, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlbond86

No Bible stuff, please.

Oh, I overlooked this.

I must also question this request.

You are supposing to talk about God and you are asking posters to ignore a primary way in which some us understand our relationship with Him/Her.

Would you also ask people talking about Politics to not mention political parties?

Willravel · 12-01-2005, 01:36 PM

What about other religous texts? Can I use the Qur'an? The Book of Mormon? The Veda? The Satanic Bible?

Ustwo · 12-01-2005, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

Would you also ask people talking about Politics to not mention political parties?

Well Labell, now that you mention it....

MojoRisin · 12-01-2005, 03:04 PM

Quote:

God is not all-powerful.

Ya, you're real certain on the message board, I dare you to say it to His face.

Lebell · 12-01-2005, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

What about other religous texts? Can I use the Qur'an? The Book of Mormon? The Veda? The Satanic Bible?

Please don't confuse a failure to mention for exclusion.

I didn't use those examples simply because they are not how I personally know God.

Lebell · 12-01-2005, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Well Labell, now that you mention it....

Glad a few people noticed the irony.

But if we made that rule, too many heads would asplode in "Politics"...

Willravel · 12-01-2005, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wicked4182

Ya, you're real certain on the message board, I dare you to say it to His face.

well said!!

rlbond86 · 12-01-2005, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nezmot

Why should God care about what happens to us on this tiny little planet, a mere mote in the zastness of the universe? How many other planets might there be with other forms of intelligent life on them, the odds (depending on who you talk to) suggest the number is going to be very high indeed. 12 million slaughtered? It would be like nothing more than seeing a spider eat a fly - would you interfere if you saw a bird eat a worm, or a dog chase a cat? How often would you have to interfere if you wanted to impose your own version of justice in the small space around you, say in your own house and garden? You don't give a damn about the bugs that creep and crawl in your lawn, why should you, and why should God?

That's why I believe in the clockmaker thing.

maximusveritas · 12-03-2005, 11:26 PM

This question has been posed since before the time of Christ, most famously by Epicurus. You've mentioned the Holocaust, but that is pretty easy to get around by simply citing free will as some have done here.
What's not so easy to get around are the existence of natural disasters. What kind of God would allow an innocent child to suffer while simultaneously allowing evil men to prosper? To simply say that "God works in mysterious ways" is a cop-out. Invoking Karma leads to many problems as well.
The only real way to get around this problem while still holding to a belief that God exists is to modify the usual definition of God, most commonly by changing the definition of what it means to be "all-good" or "all-powerful".
You can hold onto the possibility of a "clockmaker" God, but as you say, there's really no point in it if God is uninterested anyway.

GoldenOuroboros · 12-05-2005, 03:08 AM

Jehovah has given man free will. This world is in the power of the wicked one, not Jehovahs, that is why things are ravaged as they are. Jehovah doesn't like to see suffering, he hates it and detests it, but he can't do anything about it for this time, for the devil did say to him that these men and women only follow you for what you can do for them, not because they love you. If we had miracles happening around us left right and center.. would it then become a question of faith for 'man'? If 'man' could see around him that Jehovah did exsist, then do you think that there would be more following him or less? This is why Jehovah remains hidden until the chosen day. To prove to the devil that we can love him for who he is, not what he can do for us

So in a way, your third point is correct, his hands are tied for the moment.

And what happened to the original poster? O_o

asaris · 12-05-2005, 08:52 AM

Philosophers have attempted to answer the 'natural disasters' objection; I haven't really read heavily in the field, so I only know of one attempt off-hand. Alvin Plantinga argues that it is possible that, were we not sinful, we'd know when natural disasters were going to strike. I suppose it's also possible that we'd avoid building cities in disaster prone areas.

Leto · 12-05-2005, 10:47 AM

I hate to be anal, but 12 million in the third reich's final solution scenario? Did the numbers change or am I wrong in remembering that it was 6 million. again I hate to thread jack from the current philosophical discussion for a detail... my aopologies

Lebell · 12-05-2005, 10:58 AM

My personal answer to natural disasters is that the reality of life has hardships. Floods, earthquakes and typhoons happen along with sunshine, warm spring days and soft summer showers. They also happen to the good and bad alike. Therefore, they are not a reward or punishment or indeed, anything. They just are. They can cause suffering or happiness. To me, it is what we do with this suffering or happiness that matters. And again, using the example of Christ, this suffering/happiness is transformed at the end of all things and we never have to worry about it again.

longbough · 12-05-2005, 11:20 AM

If you accept that there is a God and an afterlife - and that the spiritual nature of being is eternal while the body is transient - then you might consider that all the events of our physical lives contribute little to the quality of our entire existance. That we suffer and die are consequences of our actions and interactions in physical life.

For instance, "Evil" (for lack of a better word) lies in the heart and soul of the murderer and takes its toll on the quaility of his/her spiritual life. Those who suffer and die will find ultimate peace in the afterlife (or the next life - depending on your beliefs). Why does God need to intervene?

Nimetic · 12-05-2005, 04:20 PM

I find it hard to see how people ignore this issue. It's an obvious problem with the god hypothesis.

For more sophisticated arguments around this question - you might want to check Wikipedia under the entry "the problem of evil". I stumbled on this recently, just re-checked, and it has references to a fair bit of serious thinking around the issue.

Not my area of interest really... but I'm sure it'll be of use. As I said... it looks fairly comprehensive.

Yakk · 12-06-2005, 10:19 AM

Quote:

square root of a negative number

The square root of a negative number is i or -i.

God is on trial. Being an all-powerful creator is not an excuse for evil. Dictated morality based on threats and force is no morality at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

Would you also ask people talking about Politics to not mention political parties?

For the most part, my personal political views are not determined by political parties. The political parties in power are, at best, failed approximations of an ideal. So talking about politics without talking about political parties is quite doable.

As for loving Jehova for what Jehova is: The existence of religions which are not accurate is certain. There exists a false religious dogma. Is there a way to prove your religious scripture is true? If not, there is no reason not to believe your religion's dogma is a lie.

In the case of Jehova, there are multiple contradicting religions build around the "same" diety -- most all with the requirement that their followers consider the competing religions as worshipping a false god.

So we have a diety who will not provide proof that she/he exists, yet insists that we get the religion we worship correct. If you want to follow the parenting analogy, that's just messed up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leto

I hate to be anal, but 12 million in the third reich's final solution scenario? Did the numbers change or am I wrong in remembering that it was 6 million. again I hate to thread jack from the current philosophical discussion for a detail... my aopologies

More than just jews died in the holocaust. Political opponents, homosexuals, gypsies...

xepherys · 12-07-2005, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlbond86

2. God did not intervene for some reason: One reason or another, God decided not to intervene. However, it seems odd that a good God would be apathetic to such a situation. Thus the only likely solution for this possibility is the "clockmaker" God, who created the universe but now does not intervene in events, or only works "small" miracles. Yet then, God would have restricted His powers and thus would no longer be all-powerful. But if God does not intervene at all, why pray at all? Unless he still works small miracles. Just don't ask for world peace

This is flawed logic. Why would a good god nessecarily be more proactive. Remember first that the concept of good and evil are creation of mankind. We cannot reasonably place expectations on divine beings. If you mean "by our definition of good", it's still flawed. Good people are often put into situations where they do NOT do the right thing, and not out of inability or lacking of goodness. Also, you come full circle in the partial debate of, if an omnipotent being put forth a limitation on his own powers, would he be able, in his omnipotence to restore those powers unto himself? Hmmm...

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlbond86

If there is destiny, we'll never have time travel, or someone would have shown up by now

This logic is also flawed. What you posit here has nothing to do directly with destiny. If time travel were to exist, then theoretically, someone would have shown up by now destiny or not. How do you know they haven't? How do you know where we are on the line of forward moving time? Or is time cyclic? If it is both linear and infinite, there is a front to it as it moves along. Suppose we are AT that front. It's no more or less likely than us being in the front car of a train, the 6th car or the 9th. Who's to say?

jbw97361 · 12-08-2005, 01:33 AM

To throw my opinion into the mix, I vote for an all powerful god, but a god that wants to let us find things out for ourselves. I suppose I best think of it in terms of a parent-toddler relationship. The parent isn't going to let the toddler do anything seriously dangerous like fall down a flight of stairs or electrocute themselves (hopefully not at least). Allowing the toddler to find simple things out for themselves is one of the key parts of growth and development.

After all, according to most religions arent we merely toddlers in god's universe?

Lebell · 12-08-2005, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nimetic

I find it hard to see how people ignore this issue. It's an obvious problem with the god hypothesis.

???

I don't see anyone here ignoring this issue.

What you talkin' 'bout, Willis??

Ustwo · 12-08-2005, 08:24 AM

I think the answer is either...

#1 God does not exsist.

or

#2 God does not care.

Either way he/she/it can be safely ignored.

longbough · 12-08-2005, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nimetic

I find it hard to see how people ignore this issue. It's an obvious problem with the god hypothesis.

Many people who believe in some form of "God" also understand that His purpose isn't the elimination of suffering and death on Earth.

Much of theology is about trying to explain the purpose of suffering, death and tragedy on Earth. If you are inclined to believe in an afterlife is it not concievable that suffering is a trial and death is a passage?

Plaid13 · 12-14-2005, 12:26 PM

If some greater power such as god is watching over us he thinks of us the same way we think of insects. god would be a greater being far advanced compaired to us why would he care what we do? Do any of you stop and worry about the thousands of cans of Raid that get sprayed killing millions of ants or bees or termites or anything else every day? why would god think of us in any higher respect then that we give to insects. What about the forests that we clear every year to build homes for ourselves? or better yet what about the fields of crops we grow cut down destroy and replant every year? what makes one form of life more important or deserve more attention then the next from god? they are all creations of god if a god even exists. Maybe god didnt want to stop WW2 and all the horrible crap people do to eachother because... people dont deserve the help. maybe god thinks we should die off but is just too nice to do anything about it and figures in time we will kill ourselves off and the world will go back to a more natrual balanced state.

onewolf · 12-14-2005, 08:29 PM

Isn't the initial post the premise of the old book "when bad things happen to good people?" I'm pretty sure the author's reasoning is the same and he also concludes that God does not have the capability to control individual events.

I question the idea that "God knew the allies would win" - does this mean he had some hand in the allies winning or just that he knows the future? If the former, then I would be very disappointed in God (assuming I believed in him) - he could have let the Allies win much sooner and saved millions of innocent lives. If the latter, I'm not sure the relevance to this discussion.

hrandani · 12-14-2005, 08:54 PM

Can't believe the thread godwinned itself with the first post.

I wish people would just realize there's no God, no Jesus, and no Santa or the Easter Bunny and call it a day.

rlbond86 · 12-15-2005, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plaid13

If some greater power such as god is watching over us he thinks of us the same way we think of insects. god would be a greater being far advanced compaired to us why would he care what we do? Do any of you stop and worry about the thousands of cans of Raid that get sprayed killing millions of ants or bees or termites or anything else every day? why would god think of us in any higher respect then that we give to insects. What about the forests that we clear every year to build homes for ourselves? or better yet what about the fields of crops we grow cut down destroy and replant every year? what makes one form of life more important or deserve more attention then the next from god? they are all creations of god if a god even exists. Maybe god didnt want to stop WW2 and all the horrible crap people do to eachother because... people dont deserve the help. maybe god thinks we should die off but is just too nice to do anything about it and figures in time we will kill ourselves off and the world will go back to a more natrual balanced state.

But of course this means that God is not all-good.

TheObserver · 12-16-2005, 12:07 PM

I think you lack the knowledge, as we all lack what it would mean to do the right thing when you're all knowing, all good, and all powerful.. We are limited we see hitler we're like oh no bad... but God is all knowing, so he sees hitler every possible out come etc.. blah blah blah... So basically due to ignorance, adn other things, we cannot pass judgement on an all knowing being.

Furthermore I think you mistake God's purpose for us here on Earth. If God just killed everyone who was born evil, what then is the point of free will? If God is to say that he has given us choice, then he must allow us to choose against him. And to allow only good things to happen wouldnt' allow for that to be the case. For example if all you knew was good, then how can you say that you would choose God, God must offer us a choice, given us only one choice good, is no choice at all. He must allow evil to be known, understood, and choosable.

Furthermore God is not going to do a miracle every time somethign bad happens, he's not going to prove himself to the world just because some nut wants to go play dicatator. However, God will intervene for those who trust in him, and beleive in him so long as it doesn't contradict with his plans. Furthermore i think the best way to look at this is to use an analogy of Adam and Eve in the garden with the tree. If God didn't have that tree there then how can you say Adam and Eve were choosing God... They would have been only be choosing God, becuse they were only given that choice, thus God allowed for the tree to exist their.

Lastly a mistake you make about God letting people die, yes killing is wrong; however there is more to life than here on Earth. Though that is not justify murder, it's just looking at the bigger picture.

God makes it so that we'll believe in him by his Truth that he spoke not by the fact you're like look he stopped that flood let's worship him because now we know he exists, and we don't want to go to hell. What kind of followers is taht. Rather have follower who believe in him based on his word of truth, and recognize that as right.. this was if they can know and trust him without seeing, imagine when they are with him.

peterbilt1 · 12-30-2005, 02:04 PM

It seems to me that God plays both sides of the ball. To God we are individuals, not corporate entities (i.e. Allies, ect.). God was at work in Hitler's life. We have to assume that Hitler's choice was to ignore the voice of God in his life. God was also at work at the same time in the lives of those impacted by Hitler's chooices. Ergo, God plays both sides of the ball. Then the victims of the Holocaust were presented with their God-choice. The same thing happens in our lives today. Through the ever-changing realm of our choices and consequenses, we are faced with the choice to seek and listen to God's will, or ignore it and accept the consequences. We are,as individuals, only responsible for our own responses and choices.

aceventura3 · 12-30-2005, 05:04 PM

Death as does life, serves a purpose. We may not understand or know what that purpose is, but in many situations tragic events have lead to lessons learned and to the greater good of the human race.

I believe to God we are both individuals and a part of a whole. The collective spirit of the human race still has much to learn. We will have to experience some painful lessons because of our stuborn will.

Tachion · 01-11-2006, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrandani

I wish people would just realize there's no God, no Jesus, and no Santa or the Easter Bunny and call it a day.

It really doesn't matter where it can be proven to you, it matters that you realise that for them it is their reality. It is a big part of who they are.

It is you that must realise that to lose yourself in trying to confirm your own world you can never understand others.

I don't believe in a literal God but I do believe that for many it is a reality and it is how they justify and rationalise their very existance. I understand it is important for me to understand, just because I can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist for them.

God in the end is as powerful as the believer sees him to be. Faith is about just that and the degree of faith can be easily seen as how much they question Gods actions.

So if a believer in God is questioning his motives or actions we are learning about the questioner and his faith.

This thread is about discovering and understanding the faith and beliefs the others have as we have discovered about you.

Only god can answer the question posed in this thread and I don't know what his TFP name is -yet!

11-30-2005, 09:53 PM	#1 (permalink)
rlbond86 Insane	God is not all-powerful. Here is something I thought of the other day: God cannot both be all-good and all-powerful. Take the Holocaust, a clearly horrible tragedy in which 12 million were mercilessly slaughtered due to the will of an evil dictator. God did not intervene. This leads to three possibilities: 1. God wanted the Holocaust to happen: God, for some reason, MADE the Holocaust happen. It was His will. But clearly a good God would not murder 12 million of His creations, especially after that whole rainbow-covenant thing, if you believe that stuff. 2. God did not intervene for some reason: One reason or another, God decided not to intervene. However, it seems odd that a good God would be apathetic to such a situation. Thus the only likely solution for this possibility is the "clockmaker" God, who created the universe but now does not intervene in events, or only works "small" miracles. Yet then, God would have restricted His powers and thus would no longer be all-powerful. But if God does not intervene at all, why pray at all? Unless he still works small miracles. Just don't ask for world peace 3. God could not intervene: God was powerless to stop Adolf Hitler, for some reason. Perhaps He cannot exert such a large influence, or perhaps something else. Or perhaps He is gone. Or stripped of His powers. Or being held captive in a God-power-proof prison. Or never existed at all. The point is, if this is the case, clearly He is not all powerful. What does everyone else have to say? Am I overlooking something? Personally, I believe the clockmaker idea, but would be interested to hear other interpretations. No Bible stuff, please.

12-01-2005, 08:50 AM	#7 (permalink)
AVoiceOfReason Psycho Location: Greenwood, Arkansas	Seeing something like this reminds me of what C.S. Lewis wrote in GOD IN THE DOCK. I've inserted [man] for some clarification in the quote that is apparent from the context of the statements: "The ancient man approached God (or even the gods) as the accused person approaches his judge. For the modern man, the roles are reversed. He [man] is the judge: God is in the dock. He [man] is quite a kindly judge; if God should have a reasonable defense for being the god that permits war, poverty and disease, he [man] is ready to listen. The trial may even end in God's acquittal. But the important thing is that man is on the bench and God in the dock." To ask the question posed here (or those of that nature) are to assume the role of Judge over the Creator. __________________ AVOR A Voice Of Reason, not necessarily the ONLY one.

12-05-2005, 03:08 AM	#21 (permalink)
GoldenOuroboros The Cheshire Grin... Location: An Aussie Outback	Jehovah has given man free will. This world is in the power of the wicked one, not Jehovahs, that is why things are ravaged as they are. Jehovah doesn't like to see suffering, he hates it and detests it, but he can't do anything about it for this time, for the devil did say to him that these men and women only follow you for what you can do for them, not because they love you. If we had miracles happening around us left right and center.. would it then become a question of faith for 'man'? If 'man' could see around him that Jehovah did exsist, then do you think that there would be more following him or less? This is why Jehovah remains hidden until the chosen day. To prove to the devil that we can love him for who he is, not what he can do for us So in a way, your third point is correct, his hands are tied for the moment. And what happened to the original poster? O_o __________________ Can you see me grin grin grrriiiiinnnning?!

12-05-2005, 08:52 AM	#22 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	Philosophers have attempted to answer the 'natural disasters' objection; I haven't really read heavily in the field, so I only know of one attempt off-hand. Alvin Plantinga argues that it is possible that, were we not sinful, we'd know when natural disasters were going to strike. I suppose it's also possible that we'd avoid building cities in disaster prone areas. __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

12-05-2005, 10:47 AM	#23 (permalink)
Leto Junkie Location: The Danforth	I hate to be anal, but 12 million in the third reich's final solution scenario? Did the numbers change or am I wrong in remembering that it was 6 million. again I hate to thread jack from the current philosophical discussion for a detail... my aopologies __________________ You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey And I never saw someone say that before You held my hand and we walked home the long way You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

12-01-2005, 12:52 AM	#3 (permalink)
rlbond86 Insane	an excellent point. But would God really simply sit there and watch as millions of helpless people died? I mean, it wasn't the prisoners' faults! Also, if God knew the Allies would win, that would mean that there is destiny. If there is destiny, we'll never have time travel, or someone would have shown up by now I don't think God could know what is going to happen, as that is the unknowable. Even if He does, at some point he must not have known. Of course there's the argument that God lives outside the universe, but then, prayer wouldn't "reach" him correctly... if he has already experienced the future, he cannot change the past without changing its future, perhaps killing future people with a prayer He answers.

12-01-2005, 08:07 AM	#4 (permalink)
nezmot Registered User	Why should God care about what happens to us on this tiny little planet, a mere mote in the zastness of the universe? How many other planets might there be with other forms of intelligent life on them, the odds (depending on who you talk to) suggest the number is going to be very high indeed. 12 million slaughtered? It would be like nothing more than seeing a spider eat a fly - would you interfere if you saw a bird eat a worm, or a dog chase a cat? How often would you have to interfere if you wanted to impose your own version of justice in the small space around you, say in your own house and garden? You don't give a damn about the bugs that creep and crawl in your lawn, why should you, and why should God?

12-01-2005, 08:49 AM	#6 (permalink)
Mantus lascivious	Of course if you look at "good" as something purely subjective then it clears everything up.

12-01-2005, 11:02 AM	#9 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	The Judeo-Christian God isn't human, and his understandings and moralities may be beyond our understanding. That's a non answer, but it's what the bible gives us.

12-01-2005, 01:36 PM	#13 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	What about other religous texts? Can I use the Qur'an? The Book of Mormon? The Veda? The Satanic Bible?

12-03-2005, 11:26 PM	#20 (permalink)
maximusveritas Winner	This question has been posed since before the time of Christ, most famously by Epicurus. You've mentioned the Holocaust, but that is pretty easy to get around by simply citing free will as some have done here. What's not so easy to get around are the existence of natural disasters. What kind of God would allow an innocent child to suffer while simultaneously allowing evil men to prosper? To simply say that "God works in mysterious ways" is a cop-out. Invoking Karma leads to many problems as well. The only real way to get around this problem while still holding to a belief that God exists is to modify the usual definition of God, most commonly by changing the definition of what it means to be "all-good" or "all-powerful". You can hold onto the possibility of a "clockmaker" God, but as you say, there's really no point in it if God is uninterested anyway.

12-05-2005, 10:58 AM	#24 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	My personal answer to natural disasters is that the reality of life has hardships. Floods, earthquakes and typhoons happen along with sunshine, warm spring days and soft summer showers. They also happen to the good and bad alike. Therefore, they are not a reward or punishment or indeed, anything. They just are. They can cause suffering or happiness. To me, it is what we do with this suffering or happiness that matters. And again, using the example of Christ, this suffering/happiness is transformed at the end of all things and we never have to worry about it again. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

12-05-2005, 11:20 AM	#25 (permalink)
longbough Soylent Green is people. Location: Northern California	If you accept that there is a God and an afterlife - and that the spiritual nature of being is eternal while the body is transient - then you might consider that all the events of our physical lives contribute little to the quality of our entire existance. That we suffer and die are consequences of our actions and interactions in physical life. For instance, "Evil" (for lack of a better word) lies in the heart and soul of the murderer and takes its toll on the quaility of his/her spiritual life. Those who suffer and die will find ultimate peace in the afterlife (or the next life - depending on your beliefs). Why does God need to intervene?

12-05-2005, 04:20 PM	#26 (permalink)
Nimetic Junkie Location: Melbourne, Australia	I find it hard to see how people ignore this issue. It's an obvious problem with the god hypothesis. For more sophisticated arguments around this question - you might want to check Wikipedia under the entry "the problem of evil". I stumbled on this recently, just re-checked, and it has references to a fair bit of serious thinking around the issue. Not my area of interest really... but I'm sure it'll be of use. As I said... it looks fairly comprehensive.

12-08-2005, 01:33 AM	#29 (permalink)
jbw97361 Tilted	To throw my opinion into the mix, I vote for an all powerful god, but a god that wants to let us find things out for ourselves. I suppose I best think of it in terms of a parent-toddler relationship. The parent isn't going to let the toddler do anything seriously dangerous like fall down a flight of stairs or electrocute themselves (hopefully not at least). Allowing the toddler to find simple things out for themselves is one of the key parts of growth and development. After all, according to most religions arent we merely toddlers in god's universe? __________________ JBW

12-08-2005, 08:24 AM	#31 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	I think the answer is either... #1 God does not exsist. or #2 God does not care. Either way he/she/it can be safely ignored. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

12-14-2005, 12:26 PM	#33 (permalink)
Plaid13 I want a Plaid crayon	If some greater power such as god is watching over us he thinks of us the same way we think of insects. god would be a greater being far advanced compaired to us why would he care what we do? Do any of you stop and worry about the thousands of cans of Raid that get sprayed killing millions of ants or bees or termites or anything else every day? why would god think of us in any higher respect then that we give to insects. What about the forests that we clear every year to build homes for ourselves? or better yet what about the fields of crops we grow cut down destroy and replant every year? what makes one form of life more important or deserve more attention then the next from god? they are all creations of god if a god even exists. Maybe god didnt want to stop WW2 and all the horrible crap people do to eachother because... people dont deserve the help. maybe god thinks we should die off but is just too nice to do anything about it and figures in time we will kill ourselves off and the world will go back to a more natrual balanced state.

12-14-2005, 08:29 PM	#34 (permalink)
onewolf Tilted	Isn't the initial post the premise of the old book "when bad things happen to good people?" I'm pretty sure the author's reasoning is the same and he also concludes that God does not have the capability to control individual events. I question the idea that "God knew the allies would win" - does this mean he had some hand in the allies winning or just that he knows the future? If the former, then I would be very disappointed in God (assuming I believed in him) - he could have let the Allies win much sooner and saved millions of innocent lives. If the latter, I'm not sure the relevance to this discussion.

12-14-2005, 08:54 PM	#35 (permalink)
hrandani Insane	Can't believe the thread godwinned itself with the first post. I wish people would just realize there's no God, no Jesus, and no Santa or the Easter Bunny and call it a day.

12-16-2005, 12:07 PM	#37 (permalink)
TheObserver Upright	I think you lack the knowledge, as we all lack what it would mean to do the right thing when you're all knowing, all good, and all powerful.. We are limited we see hitler we're like oh no bad... but God is all knowing, so he sees hitler every possible out come etc.. blah blah blah... So basically due to ignorance, adn other things, we cannot pass judgement on an all knowing being. Furthermore I think you mistake God's purpose for us here on Earth. If God just killed everyone who was born evil, what then is the point of free will? If God is to say that he has given us choice, then he must allow us to choose against him. And to allow only good things to happen wouldnt' allow for that to be the case. For example if all you knew was good, then how can you say that you would choose God, God must offer us a choice, given us only one choice good, is no choice at all. He must allow evil to be known, understood, and choosable. Furthermore God is not going to do a miracle every time somethign bad happens, he's not going to prove himself to the world just because some nut wants to go play dicatator. However, God will intervene for those who trust in him, and beleive in him so long as it doesn't contradict with his plans. Furthermore i think the best way to look at this is to use an analogy of Adam and Eve in the garden with the tree. If God didn't have that tree there then how can you say Adam and Eve were choosing God... They would have been only be choosing God, becuse they were only given that choice, thus God allowed for the tree to exist their. Lastly a mistake you make about God letting people die, yes killing is wrong; however there is more to life than here on Earth. Though that is not justify murder, it's just looking at the bigger picture. God makes it so that we'll believe in him by his Truth that he spoke not by the fact you're like look he stopped that flood let's worship him because now we know he exists, and we don't want to go to hell. What kind of followers is taht. Rather have follower who believe in him based on his word of truth, and recognize that as right.. this was if they can know and trust him without seeing, imagine when they are with him.

12-30-2005, 02:04 PM	#38 (permalink)
peterbilt1 Upright Location: Nashville	It seems to me that God plays both sides of the ball. To God we are individuals, not corporate entities (i.e. Allies, ect.). God was at work in Hitler's life. We have to assume that Hitler's choice was to ignore the voice of God in his life. God was also at work at the same time in the lives of those impacted by Hitler's chooices. Ergo, God plays both sides of the ball. Then the victims of the Holocaust were presented with their God-choice. The same thing happens in our lives today. Through the ever-changing realm of our choices and consequenses, we are faced with the choice to seek and listen to God's will, or ignore it and accept the consequences. We are,as individuals, only responsible for our own responses and choices.

12-30-2005, 05:04 PM	#39 (permalink)
aceventura3 Junkie Location: Ventura County	Death as does life, serves a purpose. We may not understand or know what that purpose is, but in many situations tragic events have lead to lessons learned and to the greater good of the human race. I believe to God we are both individuals and a part of a whole. The collective spirit of the human race still has much to learn. We will have to experience some painful lessons because of our stuborn will. __________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."