nezmot

...according to the bible, God has had very little face-to-face communication with us over the years. He normally sends emissaries in the form of angels, or comes to us in dreams as his chosen media for disseminating his message. One one occasion, he came to us in weak skin and bones form of a man, and we killed him.

And so I got to wondering, why has He gone so far out of his way to try to talk to us, and how come he's never actually made it in person, or rather, without first having to limit himself by taking on a human body (with all the weaknesses and limitations that go along with that).

And I thought that maybe we are to God what the inside of an atom is to us. We know it's there, but we can't investigate it or communicate anything with it directly because we'd catastrophically disrupt whatever might be going on inside. If God tried to come to us directly, he'd destroy the Earth in the process, so he can't - but he still tries, in these different ways to learn about us. Even to go as far as to turn himself into a man and walk among us, perhaps to try and guide us into becoming powerful enough to emerge from our protective shell and become strong enough to talk to Him face to face.

I can't pretend to know the thoughts of God, but it is comforting to think that while he can't visit us directly, we know he's curious enough about us to send his emissaries, but he's also caring enough not to smash us to pieces in order to find out. Let's hope he is a kind and most importantly, patient God.

Willravel

There's no way to know for sure, but it could have something to do with Him being too much for us. Then again, maybe He's busy.

feelgood

Everybody's always talking about how the big cheese is always busy, what the heck does he do with his spare time?

__________________
Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war

Willravel

I'd probably mess with the angels, but that's why I'm not God. I imagine someone with unlimited intelect and hind and foresight can probably get bored easily. He probably watches us a lot, considering we are not as predictable.

guthmund

Foosball. Or skeeball. I imagine with the power to manipulate...well, everything he could find enough time for both.

__________________
No signature. None. Seriously.

CSflim

Racquetball

__________________

hannukah harry

or possibly there is no god and any encounter believed to be with him or an emmissary has actually just been people with mental disorders.

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

tecoyah

I met her once...she was cute.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

:::OshnSoul:::

God communicates with us in experience. Everyday experience. Especially in the littlest things we tend to dismiss without second thought.

Wyckd

this post was rather ignorant, i'm sorry.

i am not calling you dumb, i do not know whether you do, or do not have any christian/catholic backgrounds or education. but the impression i get from reading this, is that you don't. not enough anyway.

the only reason he humbled himself greatly and came to us in human form was to try and reconcile us and our sin so we can be with God again.

he knew very well what he was getting into.

he allowed himself to fully feel the pains and sufferings of humans. he allowed himself to go through temptations of everyday life as a human being under the control of satan. but he was able to resist it and was 100% sinless. he was crucified for having done nothing wrong. in the old testament, sin's were forgiven with sacrifices of lamb and its blood. jesus was our lamb and he died for us, for our sins, so that we may be saved and our spirits may return to God when our physical bodies die out.

i think what God wants the most from us, is for us to communicate with him.

but many of us don't.

sapiens

I always wonder when people say things like "I'm not calling you dumb, but..."
This thread seems to focus on individual belief about god. Why was his post ignorant? Why would a Christian/Catholic background be necessary to discuss a matter of individual belief?

Willravel

You're sorry? But you can go back and edit it out if you're sorry!
That depends greatly on what faith you follow. Some people believe that God speaks to us often. Some people believe God gave us hot dogs to ward off evil hunger spirits at sporting events. Saying someone doesn't know much about faith only makes you out to be a religious nazi.
That's one interpretation. My interpretation is different than yours, and you can't say that your interpretation is any lore valid than mine.

Charlatan

He'd like to come and meet us
But he thinks he'd blow our minds

He's told us not to blow it
Cause he knows it's all worthwhile

He told me:
Let the children lose it
Let the children use it
Let all the children boogie

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

BigBen

God told me:

"Remember, Ben; Everything before the But is bullshit."

__________________
3.141592654
Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

hannukah harry

if that man were god, i'd pray every night. and probably shell out the $100+ to do it from the front row.

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

MageB420666

Geez, you need to watch Dogma.

God can't speak to us directly because our mortal bodies can't handle the awesome power of the divine voice. If God were to speak to us directly our hearts would burst and our heads would explode. It took God 5 Adam's to figure that one out...

__________________
Apathy: The best outlook this side of I don't give a damn.

Wyckd

to me, the OP was clearly speaking of a christ related religion. i currently know of no other religions in which it was written in its doctrines that God came to meet its creation in human form and his creations killed him.

Daoust

If we are talking about a Judeo-Christian God, then I would like to use this reference from Romans, chapter 1.

18From heaven God shows how angry he is with all the wicked and evil things that sinful people do to crush the truth. 19They know everything that can be known about God, because God has shown it all to them. 20 God's eternal power and character cannot be seen. But from the beginning of creation, God has shown what these are like by all he has made. That's why those people don't have any excuse.

__________________
I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace
But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

dlish

ok i have a question...

if god came down as a man..and we killed him...

what would have happened if he came down as 'god himself' and we killed him.. would god exist still? just something to think about

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Daoust

How many creations have power to kill their creator? Why would a Creator give His creation that power? That doesn't make sense to me.

In the case of Christ, we didn't kill him. The Bible says he died, but rose again, because being God, and having the power over death, he could not be subjected to it. But you have to be crazy or Christian or both to believe that, right?

__________________
I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace
But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

dlish

its not what i was getting at really.. im not here to have a debate about the dogmas of the trinity etc. personally i think the whole concept of the trinity is questionable at best, but we wont go there.

basically what i was trying to get at was, if god had sent his only begotten son to be killed (and since jesus is god, the father is god and the ghost is god, and these 3 are 1) then if it was possible for the son to die, then its feasible to say that the father could be liable to death taking that reasoning into account. if this is not the case then, i dare say that the father has more power than jesus and jesus is a sub-ordinate of the father at best.

and if the father can be killed, what would run our universe?

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

pan6467

Ah, but we did not truly kill Jesus now did we? The Resurrection proved that Jesus lived on after "death".

To me God is the master of pure energy, therefore as energy cannot be created not destroyed only transferred, God and us can never die. However, what seperates us from God is the fact he can control all energy and therefore in Heaven we are conscious and in Hell our energy has been dispersed to a degree where there is not enough for us to be.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

harry

Well, one might argue that Jesus was/is both of divine and human nature. So the human nature of Jesus is the reason he could be killed, while God the Father being solely divine cannot be killed by definition.

Anyway I am not sure wether the Christian God is running anything at all - I guess the bible just says he started it all and the Universe would keep running quite happily if He decided to wander off and start another creation or something. Does anyone have a more qualified opinion on this?

nezmot

So jesus was a sacrifice? And what you're saying is that God sacrificed himself to himself for our benefit. It seems more than a little confused.

feelgood

That's easy, mankind create atom bomb, atom bomb kills mankind

Does that make sense? Cuz, it sure made sense back in WWII...

__________________
Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war

rlbond86

he plays the Sims.

guthmund

Now, now, now. The atom bomb was just minding its own business until we dropped it out the plane.

I'm not an overly religious guy, but let's see if I can pound an explanation out.

Jesus was a sacrifice. Said so Himself in Matthew 20:28 "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give His life a ransom for many." A 'man' who chose to sacrifice Himself to save humanity and fulfill God's Will. (John 3:16, no?) But even then it wasn't a sure thing. Jesus had to willingly allow himself to be 'slaughtered.' Remember, God doesn't force Jesus to do anything. He bribes him with visions like in the garden of Gethsemane (I hope I spelled that right), but he never says, "Jesus, get your ass to Jerusalem so I may have your fellow man smite thee." The guy could've left at anytime (he can walk on water, feed the multitudes, heal the lame and raise the dead and he's done in by a 'false friend' and captured by a handful of Roman soldiers?). He could've done his own thing and doomed all of us to oblivion.

The question of who sacrificed themselves and to whom is a much trickier question. I guess you have to decide whether you believe in Jesus' divinity or not. As I understand it his 'divinity' wasn't even established until that little meeting in Nicea some 1,600 years ago. If you believe God had a hand in that, and believe by extension that Jesus is in fact of divine being, then yes, God sacrificed himself to himself to save humanity. Water downs the story a bit, in my opinion, but there you have it.

Last bit...I promise..

Again another reference to the 'divinity' question, but instead of going that route again let's go this route.

Paul says, "the head of every man is Christ and the head of Christ is God" (1st Corinthians 11:3). Peter consistently refers to Jesus as a 'servant' (Acts 3:26 ; Acts 3:13) Jesus says himself (well, according to John) that he is but a servant to his 'father.' John 14:28; "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

So, while they may share the same divine spark, if that's what you choose to believe, but they don't seem to be equals. So, what 'kills' (assuming he actually died and it wasn't his decision to do so) the son presumably isn't the same as what could 'kill' the father.

__________________
No signature. None. Seriously.

GoldenOuroboros

Nice one Guthmund I don't myself believe in the trinity, but this is getting a little off topic

Why can we not see Jehovah in all his glory?

21 And Jehovah said further: “Here is a place with me, and you must station yourself upon the rock. 22 And it has to occur that while my glory is passing by I must place you in a hole in the rock, and I must put my palm over you as a screen until I have passed by. 23 After that I must take my palm away, and you will indeed see my back. But my face may not be seen. - Exodus 33:21-23

29 Now it came about when Moses came down from Mount Si´nai that the two tablets of the Testimony were in the hand of Moses when he came down from the mountain, and Moses did not know that the skin of his face emitted rays because of his having spoken with him. 30 When Aaron and all the sons of Israel got to see Moses, why, look! the skin of his face emitted rays and they grew afraid of coming near to him. Exodus 34:29-30.

Jehovah screened Moses with his palm, and he still radiated 'light', we cannot see him because we cannot bask in his glory and survive.

__________________
Can you see me grin grin grrriiiiinnnning?!

asaris

The Son could only be killed because he was human at the time; being subject to death is a function of his humanity, not his divinity. The council of Nicea, IIRC, was not really about whether or not Christ was divine -- it was more about what the relation was between his divinity and his humanity. The two common heresies about Christ at the time were those saying he was half-man, half-God, and those saying he wasn't really human. The idea that he wasn't really divine wasn't common at all in the early Church, so it probably wasn't what Nicea was addressing.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

PastorTim

Speaking of Christ ~ Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

I had a prof. in seminary who told a story about serving on the ordination comm. of a friend of his. His friend knew this prof. enjoyed "tweaking" folks so he asked him to please not give him any tough questions on purpose.

So when the prof's turn came to ask a question, he asked the brother to explain the hypostatic union. I think Harry [that was his name too, coincidentally] probably could have but it sounded like he was nervous being on the spot.

So his response was, "Well...I'm from Texas, and bless God, we don't believe in unions in Texas!"

I guess at the time it was funny because this prof. was telling this story as he was introducing Harry as a speaker in chapel that day.

__________________
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ~ Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour

PastorTim

Not bad. Pretty fair.

__________________
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ~ Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour

PastorTim

Good point.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; 11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

__________________
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ~ Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour

PastorTim

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." These are the words of Jesus Himself recorded in the 3rd chapter of the Gospel of John, verses 14-18.

Whether you believe it or not is another matter.

flamingdog

This is why I think theology and philosophy should be separate forums.

PastorTim

I wondered that myself in another thread.

I understand how / when these disciplines interact, intersect and are related. But there seems to be sufficient areas of divergence and separation that they should be treated and approached differently.

But hey, I'm new here...

__________________
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ~ Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour

flamingdog

Oh, I'm not having a go at you, Tim, just that this kind of thing doesn't really enter into philosophy, in my view, although as you say, there are areas of overlap. But there's really nowhere else to put it.

guthmund

Well, now you're delving into a more comfortable area, history. The First Council of Nicea, which sat in 325 had this to say...

Seems like it was pretty important to me. Not only did they specifically point out that Jesus was "of the substance of the Father," but also 'curse' those that say otherwise. So it seems that Jesus' divinity was very much in question in early Christianity.

Thanks...I think

I don't think the philosophy forum is so 'jumpin' ' that either the true philosophy threads are getting buried or the overtly religious threads unavoidable. Too much division seems to kill all discussion....just take a look at some of the regional sub-forums.

__________________
No signature. None. Seriously.

flamingdog

Aye. Fair point. Maybe I'm just grumpy. Bah, humbug, etc.

abaya

Um, Guthmund? Are you hiding a degree in theology from us? Nice job man, I am impressed.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

guthmund

I got a little 'soap-boxy' there a bit. So, if I came off has kind of a schmuck, my combustable canine comrade, I apologize. Hug? Hearty handshake? Solemn nod?

Thank you very much.
No, no degree, at least, not yet. I'm just a very interested bystander.

__________________
No signature. None. Seriously.