philanderer

I’d like to remind everyone that one of our founding fathers once said that the masses were on the whole dim witted and unfit to run the country, a beast to be controlled. So the next time our dear leader, Mr. Bush, makes a statement on whatever he would like quoting majority support by the American “mass” remember that years ago slavery was supported by the mass; that years ago women’s suffrage was considered by the mass to be ludicrous. Just because it is accepted by the mass does not mean that it is correct. The mass will see its faults eventually, because after all hindsight is 20/20 but in the meantime don’t quote me numbers, percentages, condemnations and resolutions that must be fact because the masses say they are.

In 20 years we could look back, and think to ourselves how could we not grant gay men and women their right to marry, the constitution says equal rights to all right. Is this not how we look back now and think of suffrage and slavery.

There is a reason we are not a democracy. That’s right not a democracy. We are a Democratic Republic…and if you don’t know the difference…well dammit that’s what Hamilton was saying.

Look, learn, and remember what we are. What the mob is, what the government is and what popular opinion is, simply opinion. Time and discussion will define truths and maybe we will be lucky enough to see them and understand them before we pass on.


Too political? Thought maybe it was, but I didn't want to post it right next to my other thread

WillyPete

You hit an important point by stating that the US is a Democratic Republic.

The US media machine loves to sell itself as the seat and source of all democracy and freedom.
Yet, to Europeans, you guys seems so blinkered and restricted. Sometimes it looks like you folks are in a police state.

....sad thing is, like the movies, that type of life looks like it's "Coming soon, to a country near you!"

politicophile

Which of the founding fathers are you paraphrasing as having said, "the masses were on the whole dim witted and unfit to run the country, a beast to be controlled"? Also, could you provide the direct quotation?

__________________
The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

Spiker439

Aren't the masses soemtimes correct in their majority opinion? It seems the major faults in American political thinking have been outlined above, but surely there are some things that the American public got right. The thing is, I can't personally think of a good example. Perhaps this is because as humans, we seem to remember the worst parts of our past, albeit personal or socially. Still... it seems to me intuitive to suggest that the American public majority isn't always wrong. If someone can think of a good example for this, feel free to share on my behalf. I think the ideas in the above post certainly highlight the human inefficacy to be rational or objective, but isn't that just part of being human?

Gatorade Frost

It's interesting that you say that, because many people in America look at Europe and think that you guys are restricted in many ways that we are not.

__________________
I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well."
Emo Philips

howdydave

Howdy!

The issue of:

is really quite simple.

Simply note the difference to the questions:

What are WE as Americans?
and
What am I as an American?

Whenever you talk about any group, it is necessary to lower standards until they accomodate everybody.

__________________
Dave ©¿©¬

"Noli illigitemi carborundum decendus"
"Ego sum quis ego sum quod ut est quicumque ego sum" - Popeye

philanderer

True...and to be fair I wasn't talking about everyone. I was generalizing...as was Hamilton. You'll note he didn't say that every man in the country was dim witted.

And yes it's true that sometimes the mass gets it right, but I think that sometimes we need to step back and think objectively rather than just go with what the media and government says. I think especially now in an American environment that is rather infamous for red herring attacks rather than real discussions that taking that step back is important.

The man who said that was Alexander Hamilton and I don't remember the exact quote (I'll look for it)...but I also think Jefferson said something along the same lines about who should be allowed to vote and who shouldn't.

WillyPete

What ways do you think we are restricted?

The only one I can come up with is firearms.

We have more sex in our environment, less stringent drinking laws, less weapons, less murder, more lenient drug laws.

Just curious really.

From our view, you guys are much more restricted in your personal lives. You have stricter laws regarding your sexual practises, your use of alcohol and recreational drugs.

Your Police have much greater powers of search and seizure, and with the Patriot acts, it looks like its set to get worse.

We travel through Europe without much care for problems, yet for most Europeans, a trip to the US is becoming quite a chore and a worry that we have all our 'papers in order'.

This isn't an argument, just an observation and I'm interested to hear what appearance we might have for you guys.

Gatorade Frost

What part of Europe are you from?

In regards to sex and alcohol, well, that just all depends on who wants to get it and your own personal life style choice. As an 18 year old, if I wanted to drink, smoke, or have sex, I know where I can go and get it, it's just a personal choice not to do so. Sure there are people who villify all of that, but it's wrong to think that just because a person's up on a pulpit preaching everyone is listening and judging based off of that.

Search and seizure laws differ from place to place in Europe, I'm sure. Here you have to acquire a search warrant before you can actually search and seize, though there are some smaller rules in that regard when it comes to police and actually being there in the moment.

And in coming to Europe, it may be a chore, but as an American I'd prefer it be a chore to have everything checked out to come to America rather than it just be an easy-breezy trip over here without any security, though as it stands now the national security does leave a lot to be desired

__________________
I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well."
Emo Philips

d*d

That doesn't really answer Willy Pete's question,which was
in what way do you think europeans are restricted in a way that you are not?

Don't you have to be 21 in parts of America to drink? if we're talking about countries, restricitions should we keep it within the boundaries of the law? otherwise it's anything goes.

WillyPete

Like he said.

You laws regarding the penalties for recreational drugs, age of consent, drinking, etc are all a LOT more restrictive than what we experience here.

Your media is VERY restricted as to what it can broadcast, particularly with regard to sexual material. After 9pm here, anything goes except for graphic penetration.

Our separation of state and religion is a lot more evident, even our future monarch has stated that his title be changed to 'Defender of the Faiths".

What reaction, as a nation, would there be if a US president declared a non-belief in christianity, but sought to have ALL religions protected?
It's not just your laws that are retrictive, it's also your portrayed mindset, whereby America is the bastion of truth and light and the source of all democracy, when in fact the rest of the world only really notices the dirty laundry that is held up.

The emperor truly has no clothes.

VikingF

Like Janet Jackson's breast stunt. In Norway, many people had a good laugh about those Americans we could read about in the paper, who got "psychical problems" seeing that breast.

I mean - it was A BREAST, nothing to sue anybody for! Your kids won't be damaged, I promise!

Sorry, it was a little off topic, but I just had to add it.

WillyPete

True.
We have naked boobs on page three of one of our national newspapers. EVERYDAY.

stingc

Since nobody has answered this yet, I'll give it a try. The perception in America is mainly that Europeans are excessively taxed. It is viewed as a way of making everybody poor in order to pay for a (supposedly) large population too lazy or drugged to work. The extensive vacation time required in many countries is also seen as restricting success.

Related to taxation is the inability of the average person to own a nice (by American standards) car, or travel significant distances without public transport. Traffic law enforcement is also considered to be ridiculously strict in England, and possibly elsewhere.

The medical systems in Europe don't have the greatest reputation here either. They're mostly considered to be inefficient and of mediocre quality.

Anyway, I agree that America has its share of problems too. Unfortunately, too many here of have this ridiculously arrogant view of the rest of the world. When pressed, many of them like to point to China or Afghanistan to 'prove' their point about how great the US is .

WillyPete

Ok.
I'd like to suggest some answers to a few of those.

Europe, as seen via the Eu label, is constantly changing and including once soviet bloc countries and other poor nations.
The 35 hour week is standard in a few of those countries, with a lot of working habits still very evident, such as the spanish siesta. In London, the average is about a 50 - 60 hour week.

Income Tax is very different wherever you go, and certain items are heavily taxed according to government policy and other issues. For instance, in the UK, cigarettes and petrol have a really heavy duty.

Linked to that is the car issue. Many people in the UK don't have a car because we don't NEED one. The american public transport system, bar a few large cities, is quite far behind that of England, France, Holland and Germany. Although we constantly bitch about train delays, it's because we have so many. Your country is also so huge that relying on public transport would be folly.

As for traffic enforcement, aside from the speed cameras I'm going to have to disagree with you.
The tv series COPS is a good example. Almost all wanted criminals in the US are caught due to traffic violations. I was once pulled over because the guy I was travelling with had his high beams on by accident. Also, when being pulled over for speeding, I don't think a lot of people here have to fear a weapon being pointed at them.

Medical: Seeing as most medial services in Europe are social services, there will be some stark differences between the US and Europe.
America, particularly with its health services, suffers epidemic proportions of lawsuits.
Thus, your entire medical system is constantly having to fear legal action and is constantly on tiptoe around its patients. This is nice for those of you who have medical insurance, but I only have to go to the Political forum to find many threads on how the medical system is making harder and harder for those without insurance to get help.

Here, you simply have to turn up to get the same treatment as anyone else.
I just got my European health card yesterday, which lets me get subsidised medical help anywhere in Europe.

There's a few more things, but I can immediately see where your perceptions woul come from. Riots or strikes on the news, Superbugs in the hospitals and rail accidents would simply highlight this for you even though they don't happen that regularly.

stingc

I was just trying to say what the general perceptions were. I knew that several weren't very accurate, and/or varied greatly from country to country .

As for traffic enforcement, I was mainly referring to the speed cameras. I hear they're quite a problem (is that true?). You're right that a lot of criminals are caught in traffic stops in the US, but they're still pretty rare. If you don't act like an idiot swerving in and out of traffic at 100 mph, you'll be ok in most areas. Around here, they'll pretty much only pull you over if you're acting drunk.

Also, I made a point of the car issue because I personally love driving. Even if I lived in an area with good public transport, I'd still want a nice car to wander around and have fun with. Looking at the prices of cars and fuel in England, it seems that someone must be rather rich to own anything interesting (other than a motorcycle).

VikingF

Haha.. Denmark or Germany, I guess?

WillyPete

England.

True about the price of cars and fuel stingc, but then again, the pound has very different spending power to your dollar.

cybersharp

This does not really strike me as political... It strikes me as history... though you have flaws in your reasoning...
1. Slavery was NEVER supported by the MASSES... It was supported by the few land owning rich men in the south who made their money off of slavery by making slaves take care of their various plantations... and that was only maybe 10% of the south... a majority of the south didnt even have slaves.. The north of course was primarily competly against slavery and that is why abolistionist movements start in the north.
But the most educated people (those rich white men) simply had the most power because: one they where rich, and two they where the only people educated enough to make educated decisions!.. duh.. Those men who owned slaves in the south where practicaly among the few in the south that could even READ at that time period anyway.
2. Woman sufferage as well wasnt exactly a decision made by mass's... It was simply the way things where back then due to uneducated people... As you will notice... even then! Women who through one way or anouther (while having no rights) still did very well for themselves generaly... most of the women back then where a hell of a lot tougher to in my opinion.. they standard of living then demanded it.
3. Also Alexander Hamilton did not discount the public's opinion he simple knew that FOR THAT TIME PERIOD most of the general public was UNEDUCATED and could not thus make realistic helpfull decisions on their own... that is why rich land owning men had such control over the time period! They where the only ones who knew how because those men where the only people actualy learned enough to write the constitution along with the bill of rights and the declaration of independence.
4. Yes it is a democratic republic as you stated, this is NOT "a method of controling the beast". It is the representation of the people... where people democraticaly vote for who they want to represent them.

__________________
0PtIcAl

WillyPete

Yes, we also like to claim democracy in the UK, but even our voting system is screwed.

It's not a per vote system. he government is chosen by the number of seats that the parties win. It's not an accurate representation of the reall will of the people.

Nimetic

I'm in AU - but my understanding is that basic medical system in UK (and AU) is free.

If that's the case - then yeah, the govt provided service is probably stretched, and they have an alternative which is to purchase private cover. Anyways... that's what we do here.

lemurlad

The quote about dim witted masses sounds like Hamilton ... a mind blowing genius visionary ... he's probably right, but the potential for abuse & slow change if we had a ruling caste is worse then the ineptitude of open elections.

abaya

I have no problems with most of European culture. I have dual citizenship with Iceland, and I think their way of running their country is a hell of a lot more ethical and efficient than anything we do on this side of the pond. I'd gladly pay as much taxes as you all do in Europe, in exchange for equitable health care and education for all citizens. I think taxes are the key to a great country, as long as those in charge of the taxes are to be trusted (there's the rub).

However, my biggest beef with Europe is its issues with IMMIGRATION. America has its problems with immigration, but they are nothing compared to the social milieu towards immigrants in Europe. Immigration is to Europe as evolution and abortion are to the U.S... don't tell me Europe is a utopia for anyone with skin browner than an Italian's.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

WillyPete

By immigration, I assume illegal immigrants.

In England we have the problem, mainly due to the fact that the pound is worth so much, english is spoken in a lot of the countries generating the illegals and we offer easy benefits. In fact we are seen as 'easy' compared to France and Germany.

I myself am not worried by immigration or the new cultures forming here, but it is an issue for many in the less wealthy northern part of the country. They see these 'non british' people as a threat and the same type of attitudes that foster the aryanism and white supremacy in America generates racial tension here too.

d*d

Thats about as a bad a sweeping gesture as it's possible to make, however the subject of illegal immigration in the UK at the moment is worthy of a thread or indeed a forum to itslef for discussion.

I can't speak for all of Europe, and with the activities in France at the moment I can see why this attidude may seem to be true, but in the UK we are a multicultural society and have been for a quite few generations now and I would say a person with 'skin browner than an italian' has as much opprtunity open to him/her as in America