ARTelevision

Some of this is paraphrased from my journal . Since I am contributing here, I thought I’d let you know my biases.
……………………………….

We have immediate access to the most sophisticated research tool for coming to an understanding of human consciousness and the universe at large. Our brains are able to examine their internal methodologies as well as they are equipped to perceive and conceive of the outside world.

As the focus of our experience, our mental processes are the place to start. Having an inner understanding of the workings of our minds seems to me to be the key to understanding all things within and beyond it.

In interest of understanding my mind and after doing the standard studies and research and practicing techniques, I have decided that they weren’t necessary after all. When you think about it, the existential approach to philosophy and comprehending matters of the mind ought to be most suitable. Since the object of study is the same as that which does the research, apprehension, and comprehension, is it really necessary to use third-party tools? I don’t think so.

We have what we need to comprehend the mysteries of the mind and the universe squarely on our shoulders. It’s a great set up.

As I have studied the foundations of the philosophies of the world, I will not be relying on them for my posts. At the end of the external pathways to knowledge one discovers oneself. As all thinking is the product of individual self-consciousness, the knowledge of the world’s inner experience is self-referential. I’ll be putting these discussions in terms of my own thoughts on the matter and will appreciate contributions in kind.

1: What is the nature of the self?
2: What is the nature of the universe?
3: What is the nature of consciousness?
4: What are states of consciousness?
5: How can one explore various states of consciousness?
6: Can we achieve some personal understanding
of the ultimate philosophical questions?

a. The ontological question: what is real?
b. The epistemological question: how can we know what is real?
c. The ethical question: What is good?
d. The (a)esthetic question: what is beautiful?
e. The political question: How should we govern ourselves?

7: What is the nature and purpose of life?
8: What is the significance and meaning of death?

………………..

Sometimes references are interesting but they are not the same as our personal views, even though our personal views may have been shaped by some external references.

So, it’s best not to ask me to document my statements – they come from a lifetime and life is too short to spend any more time “studying” it or footnoting it. Also, I’m not interested in debating philosophical views. I don’t see the pursuit of philosophy that way at all. As we discover differences in our world-views, that’s a cause for celebration of the myriad of ways our universe can be perceived and understood.

In brief, I’m interested in what you think about things – not what you have read or studied.

I see philosophy as a discussion not a debate.

I’m sure there are others who enjoy a good philosophical debate or who enjoy comparing footnotes. That's cool, too.

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Peetster

Art, I have to disagree with your opening premise, that we have all of the tools necessary to investigate the mind. One can not effectively study someting with the very same thing. We will never get a complete understanding of our minds, as long as we are in the same context as our minds.

I would go farther and state that computers and other tools we create were created by our minds, and couldn't look at the problem from outside the context. Perhaps an alien encounter could help, but then we are back to the alien mind translating its knowledge back into a form understandable to our minds, which would likely lose significance.

SecretMethod70

I agree 90% with you art. I think the overall best way to go about things is through your own life experiences. I think an even better way to go about things is through a mixing of yours and other people's life experiences. That's where my 10% disagreement comes from. Philosophical texts are alsoeffected by the writer's life experiences, so I think there are definitely things to be considered in mixing with them as well - so long as it does not cost the contribution of your own life into your beliefs.

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"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

ARTelevision

The sound of one hand clapping, 'eh Peetster?

Personally, for example only, I'm stunned by the astounding truths that were intuited via meditation and looking inward by the ancient Tibetan monks and others, both Chinese and Indian, who revealed much of the underlying thought patterns needed for comprehending quantum physics and other forms of thought that defy traditional Western, Aristotelian logic.

That's just one example.

More significantly, I'm referring to a highly specific form of knowledge here. The kind that can be found during meditation and cogitation satisfy my personal ontological requirements. By my definition of what is real - there isn't anything more to learn.

I see where you're coming from but I don't see it that way.

I'll tell you what. I will spend some time, days, at least thinking about what you're saying and I'd ask you to do the same in relation to what's intended by my words.

At first appearance, it seems your posing simply a logical paradox. But there must be a deeper meaning to it. As I said, I will think on it.
Thanks,,,

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Peetster

I will do the same. You are correct, I'm not trying to simply pose a paradox. Thanks.

ARTelevision

Peetster, another question.

It also seems to me you are posing an a priori assumption. It can not be demonstrated or proven.
To assert that the mind can not know itself is simply stating a denial of the statement that the mind can know itself.

You'll recall I stated I'm not interested in a debate.

So, if we are simply stating assumptions, that's fine. However I'm willing to go as far as laying out a path for a potential argument without going down the path.

My statement that the mind can know itself can be supported by the myriad ways it has demonstrated self-knowledge.

You see where I'm going, even though I'm not going there.

How would you propose to demonstrate that the mind can not know itself?

P.S. The more I consider your inititial response, it seems you ignored my original intention not to engage in argumentation and in fact baited it. If this is the case, why not start a thread with the topic "The mind can not come to know itself" ? Then elaborate on the topic and elicit any sort of feedback, input, or disputation you desire. I'd be interested in reading that.

Let me know what you think.

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Peetster

I had initially ended my post with a statement along the lines of "Please don't interpret this as a debate.." but deleted it at the last minute. Like you, I spend a lot of time thinking before I hit the Submit button.

My point, which was not made well yesterday, was that we could never fully understand our minds, since we are using the very tool we are attempting to study. The emphasis should be on 'fully'. I agree that we will continue to learn more about our conscienceness the more we explore. I also agree that meditation and cogitation will reveal highly specific knowledge.

Scientists always must factor in the inherent shortcomings of the equipment they use. Light microscopes only work down so far, electron microscopes to the size of an electron, etc. I am trying to draw the analogy that studying the mind with the mind will yield incomplete results at best.

I'm not debating you, Art. I just tried to make a point to ponder. If I did a poor job I apologize.

ARTelevision

no problem at all, Peetster.
That's what we're doing here...
working things out as we go.
even if it's not a debate, it can get as responsibly and respectably intense as necessary and, IMO, that's fine.

P.S. In fact, I'd like to see your position put forward in a thread of its own. It's totally worth considering!

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grote_kebap

As someone who is creating his first post here, I'm a little hesitant to disagree, but knowing our own minds only exists within a specific cultural and linguistic framework. To argue that existential philosophy is the most attractive tool out there is fine, but it dismisses many post-modern thinkers with a more negative understading of humanity. Philosophers such as Wittgenstein, Foucault, Derrida and Lyotard all show that the existential notions of how the world is is bias through linguistic and cultural forces we don't control. Ignoring that is following a belief that is not grounded in a certain type of definite philosophic knowledge...

ARTelevision

grote_kebap,
all great points!
welcome!
Your input is appreciated.
You'll find that I have my own thoughts and offer them as a result of a lifetime of study and teaching - which I've put behind me now - and a lifetime of living - which I am using as a resource instead.

Personally, I've come to the conclusion that I'm content in choosing a certain distance from thoroughly rigorous philosophical praxis.

One of the reasons for this is my discovery that philosophers such as Wittgenstein, Foucault, Derrida, and Lyotard all display bias based on linguistic and cultural forces they don't control.

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Microphonic

I'm new to the forums, I hope this turns out ok. You asked what we thought, so here are the questions, along with my answers:

1: What is the nature of the self?
To create perspective.

2: What is the nature of the universe?
To provide a system where the information can be.

3: What is the nature of consciousness?
To experience all that it can.

4: What are states of consciousness?
None(one?) Consciousness is a wave, and though we may place points on it for easy reference, it has no definition.

5: How can one explore various states of consciousness?
See answer to question three.

6: Can we achieve some personal understanding
of the ultimate philosophical questions?
Vague question, I don't think we even know the ultimate philosophical questions yet, and once we do, I don't think words will describe them.

a. The ontological question: what is real?
Real is what everything would experience, if it could experience itself.

b. The epistemological question: how can we know what is real?
We must learn everything that is not, and then compare the two.

c. The ethical question: What is good?
The realization of events that further our hopes, dreams, and/or existance.

d. The (a)esthetic question: what is beautiful?
Hard one I'll assume physical/artistic.
Beautiful is any object that brings a feeling of comfort to the experiencer.

e. The political question: How should we govern ourselves?
As flexibly as possible. Government must change with the people, and people will continue to change.

7: What is the nature and purpose of life?
To give the question an answer.

8: What is the significance and meaning of death?
it is different for everyone, every thing, except the dead.


Sorry in advance for my over-generous use of paradox. I have a tendancy to question the legitimacy of the question in the answer.

Thoughts and discussion on any of this are welcome. (maybe thats assumed, but I guess I'll say it too)

ARTelevision

Microphonic,
thanks for your thorough responses!
I'm much more interested in hearing people's views than I am in disputation, argumentation, or sophistry.
I'll digest your responses and see if there's a comment or two that wells up from within...

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Loki

Art, here are my responses.

1: What is the nature of the self?

The nature of the self is to be like a giant state machine, i.e. an immense sum of prior experiences. We react to something based on how we've been conditioned to react, by our upbringing, or education, the media (i agree that the media plays a HUGE role in who we are, btw), our friends, and every other possible stimuli.

put simply:
External Stimuli + Memory and conditioning are the inputs into the self, and a response is the output.

2: What is the nature of the universe?

The nature of the universe is chance. Chance is our ultimate God, It governs everything that happens, and everthing that ever will happen (somewhat the opposite of the deterministic school of thought)

3: What is the nature of consciousness?

The nature of consciousness is, well, i guess the ability to ask a question such as this.


4: What are states of consciousness?

If we consider ourselves as the sum of prior experiences, then wouldnt our central consciousness change with every breath? So i would say millions upon millions of states of consciousness.


5: How can one explore various states of consciousness?

By living.

6: Can we achieve some personal understanding
of the ultimate philosophical questions?

Yes. Ultimately, Every human comes to terms with these questions. Some choose different paths, and each answer requires a degree of faith, even a answer saying there is no answer.

a. The ontological question: what is real?

Every second that i have existed could be a form of a simulation, or someone elses lucid dream. I think that i am real, but everything around me is completely capable of being an illusion.


b. The epistemological question: how can we know what is real?

I don't think we can. But for some reason we seem to assume that everything is real unless told otherwise. A good example - My mother thinks that most things on the TV are based on absolute real life, and that all of the serials and movies really happened. Why? Perhaps because she was raised in a culture void of television, and the stories told to her as a child were myth and folklore, which were always told as real, i.e. it really happened in the past.


c. The ethical question: What is good?

Good is a relative definition placed upon acts that are viewed as "not bad". I think that good and bad are duals of each other... i.e. you can't have one without the other.

d. The (a)esthetic question: what is beautiful?

Anything. I remember one day, i saw this massive painting of huge dark grey clouds and a tiny little farm on a small patch of green at the bottom... Words don't do it justice, but i was amazed at the beauty of the painting.. i couldnt take my eyes off it.

In terms of other humans, that which we have been raised to see as "beautiful" by the media and our upbringing is what we think of as beautiful.

e. The political question: How should we govern ourselves?

Individually, we should govern ourselves such that we can look back upon our life when we are old and fading away, and be proud of ourselves. A similiar principle may be applied on a larger scale, but... *shrug*

7: What is the nature and purpose of life?

For whatever reason, we exist. The nature of life is the ability to perceive, i think. The purpose of life is to explore these perceptions.


8: What is the significance and meaning of death?

I have no answer to this question until im dead. But i think that ultimately death may be definied as the end of life... something which makes me uncomfortable. I can't imagine not existing, and i don't think many people can, which is why, for many people, this question is typically answered by religion.

cAtT

sadly my vocabulary isnt wide enough to explain my thoughts
i understand what i know, just that everytime i put them into words...something else explains better
but all of philosophy is no use, coz to me
god is beyond all of these

ARTelevision

These are my responses:

1: What is the nature of the self?

The self is the center of consciousness and it is also the entire universe.

What is commonly referred to as the self, i.e. identity - is a fictional construction.

2: What is the nature of the universe?

The nature of the universe is all being and non-being - all being and all nothingness, simultaneously.

3: What is the nature of consciousness?

The nature of consciousness is the same as the nature of the universe.

4: What are states of consciousness?

States of consciousness are the all the aspects of experience between being and nothingness.
All the various forms of existing, awareness, and intelligence exist on this scale, from matter and energy to life.

5: How can one explore various states of consciousness?

Exploring the various states of consciousness is what is occurring in the universe and gives rise to the various realms of existence.
The various states of consciousness can be explored at will.

6: Can we achieve some personal understanding
of the ultimate philosophical questions?

Of course.
The ultimate philosophical questions are simple to the extreme.
Complexities arise because of language, compartmentalized thought, and the ego.


a. The ontological question: what is real?

Everything is both real and not real.

b. The epistemological question: how can we know what is real?

By paying no attention to explanations of things.

c. The ethical question: What is good?

Doing no harm.

d. The (a)esthetic question: what is beautiful?

Everything is beautiful. Everything is also not beautiful.

e. The political question: How should we govern ourselves?

We are governed according to the continuing process of social and cultural evolution.
Human history is the record of our progress in this area.


7: What is the nature and purpose of life?

There is no nature or purpose to life.
Life is an experience.

8: What is the significance and meaning of death?

There is no significance or meaning to death.
Death is an illusion.

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brownclown

Number eight:
If death is non existance, then it does not exist.

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CSflim

ART, I'm very interested in your (and everyone else's) points. However I would like to see you eleaborate on exactly what you mean when you say that death is an illusion?

Do you mean that life is eternal, or that life is non-existant?

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CSflim

I think that you're suffering from flawed logic there Clown.

or were you just joking?

If you were not joking, then please elaborate.

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rogue49

To give a little in the conversation Art & Peetster are having so far.

You can judge according to your mind only, but it will probably take much longer.
The horse that has blinders on, can know it’s surrounding environment,
However it requires much more effort, and movement to see those surroundings
than if it didn’t have it on, or someone else was leading him, thus helping in the perspective.

Everything depends on your definitions & contexts
Throughout life you’re are always biased by these, thus your answers are always limited.
Even the questions below are “interpreted” by the reading and the reader.
So are they being answered in the same way the writer intended?
Close maybe, but not absolute,
and the words which are always a limiting factor, they could be defined in multiple ways.
Some of these were difficult to answer, not because I didn’t have the intelligence,
But I wasn’t really sure was context was being asked
Certain assumptions are always made.

It goes back to one of my old favorite books quotes,
“The answer to Life, The Universe & Everything is 42”
but what is the Question?
How is it defined?

Now, for my immediate shot in the dark…
I will try to answer these from my own current viewpoints & experience.

1: What is the nature of the self?
Self is the acknowledgement of your own being.

2: What is the nature of the universe?
This has to exist, otherwise you have a void.
A void is irrelevant, thus the universe is in an existence of being.

3: What is the nature of consciousness?
“I think, therefore I am”, a classic statement not taken far enough.
These are the perceptions of self and the environment.

4: What are states of consciousness?
Since there are an infinite number of perceptions,
then there are an infinite number of conscious states & views.

5: How can one explore various states of consciousness?
By exploration, experience and as stated before…living.
Draw in as many different views as possible,
Intellectual, emotional & sensory are some of the aspects.

6: Can we achieve some personal understanding
of the ultimate philosophical questions?
There is no ultimate, no absolute,
there is only what we can possibly experience within a limited timeframe,
this is always biased upon the definitions given & drawn.

a. The ontological question: what is real?
My favorite quote is… “Reality is what is there, when you stop believing in it”

b. The epistemological question: how can we know what is real?
Only by the tools given us, and by validation of outside observations.

c. The ethical question: What is good?
Whatever is constructive, within an overall context.
Even destructive actions can be good in the greater view.
Of course, good can defined differently according to various aspects,
Such as social, physical, or emotional viewpoints

d. The (a)esthetic question: what is beautiful?
Beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder
It is up to the questioner to answer this, and this can change at any time.
There is no absolute.

e. The political question: How should we govern ourselves?
I’m assuming in a society context…in however benefits our group’s values
And the overall productive growth of your group.

7: What is the nature and purpose of life?
Beings are here to survive & experience.
If you don’t survive, then you are not here.
If you don’t experience, then you don’t grow.
Survival is for continuance,
Experience is for evolution.

8: What is the significance and meaning of death?
Death of life necessary for the continuance of evolution. (this can be scientific and/or spiritual)
If there was no death, there would be no renewal.
Not of self, but of the environment.

ARTelevision

cool rogue!
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
I was hoping you would offer your views on this.

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brownclown

Yes...I 'spose It was a play on words.
Its just that if thats all death could be; non existance,then
it couldn't "be anything".It has never existed, by definition.
so there is nothing to worry about...

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brownclown

What is the nature of the self?
The self is a collection of experiences.
The "me" that arises or is aware of these things exists only for "me".
I think it is usefull,it helps you steer your ship.

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Antagony

Philosophy is good brain exercise.

But I must say, after the many years that humans have been philosophizing ... it doesn't appear to have done much for us.

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CSflim

1: What is the nature of the self?

“I think therefore I am”...my SELF is simply my physical being, complete with my consciousness and my memories. Even our physical being is not permanent, our body is constantly renewing itself, so rather, our SELF is our structure that is our body, regardless of its actual matter. It is undergoing constant change, and is never the same from one instant to the next. What makes it OUR self is the continuation from one state to the next.

2: What is the nature of the universe?

The universe is a system of rules, which have, as of yet, reamin to be uncovered.

3: What is the nature of consciousness?

Our consciousness is largely illusionary. It is the result of our evolution of thinking, memory and logic.

4: What are states of consciousness?
5: How can one explore various states of consciousness?

I am unsure what you mean by these questions.

6: Can we achieve some personal understanding
of the ultimate philosophical questions?

a. The ontological question: what is real?

We can not know, ultimately, what is real. We can simply base our knowledge on that which we can experience, and define that as our reality.

b. The epistemological question: how can we know what is real?

Logic and the scientific method. By defining our reality as that which we can perceive, in some way or another (directly or indirectly) we can examine this reality and attempt to explain it.

c. The ethical question: What is good?
d. The (a)esthetic question: what is beautiful?

“good” and “beautiful” are purely social constructs without any real meaning.
“beauty is in the eye of the beholder” Beauty is not a property of an object. We, through language, ascribe such properties to such objects, but in reality, it is only our perception of such object that makes them beautiful. To elaborate: To be more technically correct, we should say “I find this flower beautiful” rather than “This flower is beautiful”.
Similarly, we cannot project our own ethics onto systems, as ethics are purely subjective. So how do we construct a system of law? Well, currently, it seems that the most effective way is through the system of democracy. It is by no means perfect, but at least it works as well or better than any other proposed system.

e. The political question: How should we govern ourselves?

Again, it appears democracy is the most obvious answer. It is the “safest”, as it prevents (to an extent) the possibility of a tyrannical dictator, or an abusive aristocracy. But ultimately it is flawed. I propose an analogy in the following question: Is chart music, i.e. the top selling songs, representative of the “best” music which is available to us today?

7: What is the nature and purpose of life?

There is no prescribed purpose of life. Your purpose in life is what you make it. Your life, is nothing more than an experience. A very fleeting experience! It is your “purpose” to make the best of it, while you are here, because you only experience it once!

8: What is the significance and meaning of death?

No significance or meaning. It simply marks the inevitable end to your temporary experience, which is life. Get comfortable with your own mortality, because there nothing you can do to avoid it!

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brownclown

2: What is the nature of the universe?
I reckon the universe is an energy process/event.
I dont think it can exist without me.

3: What is the nature of consciousness?
Consciousness is the product of a chemical reaction; a combination of a human body and time.

5: How can one explore various states of consciousness?
Take drugs or spin around and around and around or go to sleep and dream.


4: What are states of consciousness?
They are different intensities of chemical reaction.

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