Holdem Dvorak

The more I think about it, the more I feel like drawing circles. I have never really believed in god. The more I think about theology, the less I like it. I'm not an atheist, I'm more of an ignostic, and even thats just a grouping term i don't like. I live a pretty good life. I volunteer in my town, and I don't deal drugs. I watch star trek and play xbox. Currently I'm majoring in Multimedia Communications at My local community college. In the fall I will be taking on a second degree in Paramedics. The fact of the matter is, I choose to not think about god.

If god exists is he(or she) flicking me off for not worshiping?

I like to blabal, don't blame me, blame Augie. He is bigger than me and knows where i live.

d*d

what do you mean by "flicking me off"?

zen_tom

It is April fools right?

Yes Holdem, God is flicking you off because you are ignostic. If I were you, I'd draw as many circles as possible to try and distract him, it might also help confuse Augie (whoever he is) You've certainly managed to confuse me!

meembo

Somehow you were created by something much larger than anyone understands. Your post indicates that you, like virtually everyone else, are looking for answers bigger than the life you lead. I think God puts questions like this into our lives to shake things up. I also think that God asks us somewhere along the line to consider investing in some kind of investigation in faith (and therefore meaning) in life. The faith can be a respect for a moral way to live, or for a religious life, or for a selfless life, etc. The faith can't be justified rationally. I also think that when one explores the idea or the space of faith, that meaning in life becomes more apparent to the person looking for it.

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Willravel

Do you mean 'flipping you off' instead of flipping you off? If so, I doubt God flipps off many people. I'm sure that if God exists, he is sad that you don't believe He exists. I doubt it goes much beyond sorrow. God was only vengeful in the old testimate, unless you believe in hell. If you believe in hell, and don't believe in God...then you're confused! If you're confused about God, you're called agnostic.

shrubbery

Choose to think about the excistanse of God and you will find that there is absolutely nothing that even makes it sound plausible that there is god. Religion is basicly the result of a human need to find causal connections and not willing to accept that we can't explain everything.

And for once, I couldn't care less if anyone takes offense in this matter. I'm tired of threading lightly around this matter. If people take offense in this, at least it forces them to reconsider their views even if the strengtenths or weakens them. I'm not offended when people say that they believe in Jesus and calling me ignorant for being an atheist. How can you accept some people have a different religion but at the same time be intolerant towards atheism? Bigotry, I call it.

"Modern theists might acknowledge that, when it comes to Baal and the Golden Calf, Thor and Wotan, Poseidon and Apollo, Mithras and Ammon Ra, they are actually atheists. We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."
-Richard Dawkins

If you want to know more about God, study Gods creation. Get a proper education, learn all you can about humans and the world and you might just make up your own mind instead of believing what everyone else tells you to believe in. It's also proven that the most educated are the least religious. I wonder why.

URL to reseach saying that education decreases religious beliefs: http://papers.nber.org/papers/w8080.pdf

Willravel

It's dangerous to assume that faith weakens people. Keep in mind that the faithful sit in powerful positions all around the world. Almost all of the leaders of the world are associated with a religion. While God, to someone looking at Him with logic, is nonsensical, and a psychological crutch, you cannot dismiss him completly without dismissing the beliefs of the majority of your species. I don't know if God exists, and neither do you.

shrubbery

But I still believe in things that can be proven, instead of believing in what can't be proven. You could tell me that there is green men on Jupiter. I can't know that either, so I won't believe that either before I see evidence that I can trust.

On a sidenote:
If you look more closely on Michelangelo's Creation of Adam in the Sistine Chapel in the Vatican you will se ethat the oddly shaped drapery behind God, and the arrangment of his attendants forms an image that looks very much like a sagital view of a dissected human brain. This has prompted speculation that Michelangelo was convaying a hidden message: God and attendants appear to be a part of the human brain.

The Creation of Adam

Sagital view of brain

cellophanedeity

I figure that as long as you do your best to be a good person by your own standards, then there is no more that you can do.

If the Christian God is the real god, I'm sure He'd accept that people like you and I are just trying our best without him.

Hain

Well Dvorak... I think that you mean me. And I may be bigger than you, but you have knives and EMT training to cut me up good. Like I've always said, if He exists, he won't do anything to alter your life. So just make yours as good as you can. Even the elements that seem horrible and ruining in your life are only there to teach you something. I thought we had this conversation a couple of years ago?

Have I changed that much from the ol' soul you figured I was?

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Zeraph

I've always said (well always thought) "If you want to know God's will, look to nature."

Short answer, no "he" is not [flicking you off].

hoosier52

I think willravel is correct; God is not flicking you off and he is sad that you have chosen not to believe in Him. I don't think you will find answers to spiritual things in science or nature although both are a reflection of God. Rather, believing in the God of the Bible is a matter of faith and is not something that can be proven. It is intended to be that way; much of the Bible talks about faith. If you want to get answers about spiritual things you will have to search in the spiritual realms. For a christian perspective, which I urge you to at least consider, Hebrews ch. 11 in the New Testament, talks about faith extensively: "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. (ch.11 v.1).

Lebell

Interesting responses.

My own response is this:

I don't believe God is "flicking you off".

Rather, I believe the divine presence which is love incarnate is softly, but insistantly, wanting into your life to which you are responding.

The best of luck to you

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meembo

What you defined above was desperation, not religion. Religion is an exercise of faith, and it isn't something proven to anyone else. Faith is fundamentally a relationship between you and your God. A religion is a community of faith, but again the orientation of each person is primarily towards God, not each other. And when you say that religion is "not willing to accept that we can't explain everything", I think you give religion way too much credit. Religion isn't an objective, discrete object that provides all answers to all questions. It's a path people take to see a different kind of scenery in life to understand life. It's isn't opposed to science fundamentally. And at its best, religion is a graceful thing that uncovers a great deal of beauty in life for those who look for it. Beauty isn't taught or proven.

The generality quoted about education and religion can be very misleading. For instance, there is no link established that says more education CAUSES less religious belief -- it is a connection that isn't explained, only pointed out. I think shrubbery and others may wish to infer that smarter people educate themselves out of a belief in God, but I see it very differently. I think that simple hubris is a great problem with highly educated people in many aspects of their lives, not just in spiritual matters. And while I agree with you that people are driven to answer fundamental questions in their lives, I disagree with your characterization of religion as an empty vessel for despondent people.

Faith is a tremendous thing. I hesitate to make a generalization of my own, but I know very few younger people (e.g., in their teens and twenties) whose faith serves them well (or at all). As with education, the more you invest yourself into faith, the more potential you see in it for enriching your life. I think faith is something unearthed in a person over time, and I think that the more one loves other people, the more that person discovers that there are selfless and beautiful aspects of human nature and experience that couldn't be less scientific, like love! Fatherhood unearthed faith in myself, and though I had a thousand doubts about the "validity" of the faith community I was raised in, loving my children was trancendental to me. My faith today is seeing God in nearly everything that surrounds me, in ways I never imagined twenty years ago.

Knowledge has it's place, and intelect is a fair challenge for religious belief. Neither one ever trumps the other, though. I think that faith and education both share the quality of wanting to discover the ultimate questions of our lives. Sadly, though, people begin to assign validity only to what they see. If I had to choose between all of my education and the loves of my life, I would choose love in a heartbeat. I can't prove my children love me, but I know it with all I am. Is that faith, that truth, somehow less valid because it isn't taught or proven scientifically? Of course not!

Education is an endeavour that is incredibly goal-oriented, and so are our Western, wealthier cultures in general. We tend to project that structure of work/reward onto more parts of our lives, and I think that's why religion and education bump heads as they do. As I understand faith, it's not goal-oriented at all. Faith-wise, I don't believe there is a bottom line that God looks to in our hearts. The poster of this thread describes him/herself as a person who doesn't harm others, and I think that's where most people start in their faith, with a realization that they are good, and a wonder if that's all that matters. For some it is, and for some it's not -- faith becomes an invitation to do more good and see more beauty in the world around them.

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Holdem Dvorak

Thanks for the threads!!!! Its cool to get feedback like this. Perhaps my question could have been worded better, but I think you guys get it.

Master_Shake

Were a god to exist, he might very well be flicking you off. Perhaps you've done something of which he disapproves and he wants you to learn your lesson. He's not going to flick off me, because he would know I wouldn't like him even if he existed. But since you are admitting a desire to not be flicked off by god, he might be using that to influence your behaviour. Unlike some of us, you can still be saved by god, if he were to exist. All you have to do is give a bunch of money to rich white people. How nice for you!

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You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

Holdem Dvorak

If i could spell it right, I would have included the word "hypothetical" in my (wow i did spell it wright) in my original thread. "if god exists is he flicking me off for not accepting his unquestionable presence?" Maybe thats what i was trying to get at.

ranger

first, i believe in nothing unless i can see it. show me the miracle and i'll show you a change of beliefs.

second, as i know you as well, god is not flicking you off because some people who don't believe are better/nicer people than those who do. i can say from experience that you are one of those. but for the sake of everyone who doesn't know you, if there is a god, even if you don't believe in him/it/her, as long as you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about.

why would divine vengeance rain down on you for being a good person? because you don't believe? if that's the case than alot of good people are screwed and there goes all beliefs of a fair and just god out the window.

Willravel

Fair enough. Sounds like a good, reasonable philosophy.

d*d

thats the whole point of faith, it does not need proof - that's why it's faith. Proofing the existence of god is impossible and would negate god's position as a god.

ranger

or gods are just really selfish... if they were going to punish those who don't believe for the simple fact that they need proof, then are gods withholding that proof to just stay a god? if all it took was a little proof why not gain more believers? if gods are even real...

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Stompy

God flicked me off this morning.

He made me spill my Iced Latte.

What a jerk.

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d3cemberist

That was pretty funny!

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d*d

I imagine a supreme being capable of creating a universe would be above selfishness and isn't holding anything back out of spite or fear of being named and shamed. In fact I doubt it would even care about the amount of beleivers. I think it is an error to attempt to work out the motives of a god by relating them to our own

Holdem Dvorak

but, how do you know that god wants to be unknown? what if HE or SHE is actually trying to reach out to us?

Willravel

If I created existence, I wouldn't give a crap about some dude. No offence, honest. I probably wouldn't care about anything as pety as humans; even the might of the Tilted.

Holdem Dvorak

I have thought about that too Will.

Holdem Dvorak

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Actually I have much to hide.
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archpaladin

But you didn't create existence, so that's not a valid answer. The original question of whether or not a God is reaching out to us is still on the table.

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clavus

If God flips you off, you'll know it. Just ask Job.

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Miss Ina

I wouldn't say faith just attracts despondent souls or anything. I wouldn't even say that it's consciously attractive at all.

It makes me wonder why the idea of a God is such a persistent thought for people. I mean, what is it about it that attracts us, that makes nearly every one of us at least debate the notion of a God at some point in our lives, and makes many even devote themselves to it?

I think it's unconsciously comforting to think of yourself as a created subject, a servant of God, or whathaveyou. I mean, in a world created by God, you really only need to consider your actions and decisions in the context of someone else's (God's) rules of morality, and moral dilemmas are much easier to solve if you don't have to think about them too much, right?

Furthermore, if you like Nietzsche (I'm no expert so I apologize to any hardcore Nietzscheans here), God is an idea derived over time from a backward concept of morality, and we need to get rid of it. (From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_is_dead—what doesn't Wikipedia have!?)

For someone who has faith, having faith is a supremely noble thing. It is difficult, after all, to put your faith in something that you can't perceive with any of the senses.

For someone who doesn't believe, putting your faith in something you can't perceive is often ludicrous and even a deplorable and cowardly excuse for not claiming responsibility for one's actions and their consequences, depending on that person's particular views.

I'd rather someone tell me I'm wrong for not believing in God and articulate why my beliefs are fallible rather than telling me it requires a leap of faith, but I suppose that fundamentally the two can just never mesh.

Anyway, that was mostly unrelated to the actual thread-starter. As for whether God could be reaching out to me: Reaching out to someone who's already gone past the point of reaching back to him makes absolutely no sense from a purely human, "earthly" perspective. So I guess, if God exists, and he's really perfect and superior and incomprehensible and all that, then that would be something he might do. You'd also assume that he wouldn't be "flicking you off" spitefully, too.

Job sure got flipped off all right, but I can't remember what it was for now. Something about not believing in God enough?

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The word "time" split its husk; poured its riches over him; and from his lips fell like shells, like shavings from a plane, without his making them, hard, white, imperishable words, and flew to attach themselves to their places in an ode to Time; an immortal ode to Time.
—Virginia Woolf, Mrs Dalloway

Willravel

I'm sorry, I didn't see your answer in there. Where's your valid answer? Don't make me say it...."first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye." (Luke 6:42).

My answer was in my first response. Where's yours?

And how do you know I didn't create existence?

archpaladin

Fair enough. I believe that God reaches out to us through the cross of Christ and the word of the Bible.

And though I'm certain you were being sarcastic, I know you didn't create existence because you said if you did, you wouldn't care about people or the musings of the Tilted, yet you are here.

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Miss Ina

God reaches out to me through pamphlets next to the cash register at the corner store.

Edit: If that didn't come out as facetiously as I'd intended, I apologize.

Willravel

To which you answer:

I hope I can clarify.
Is God flipping Holdem Dvorak off for not worshiping? (answer should be yes or no, then explain)

archpaladin

Ahh.....my apologies for not understanding what you meant the first time.

My answer: no, and here's the short explanation. As I mentioned before, I think God reaches out to people and challenges us to believe in Him. I don't believe that a God based in love, however, would punish an individual for a choice they are allowed to freely make. However, if we were to make stupid actions and face the consequences of those actions, I don't believe that God would necessarily help us out.

I realize that this could bring up a lot of other questions about the existence of Hell and the wrath of God, but I wanted to keep my explanation short. I can expound if anyone in particular wants to hear me ramble.

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eeef2

I hope to be flipped of by god or God or gods.
That would make me pretty special. (yes im serious)

jonjon42

I don't think god (if he exists) is flipping you off

I myself am a bit skeptical of god as the christian way of looking at the concept of the creator. I say just try to be a good person. Do what you think is right. I myself don't follow any set religion. I instead do what I need to do to feel a kind of connection with, (god/the world/nature/spiritual/I dunno). For me that is being in nature, and meditation. For you, who knows, but yourself.

I'm sure if god exists, being a good person will trump any rituals you failed to follow. (of course if those rituals make you feel more spiritual, good for you)

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RCAlyra2004

Perhaps if god is flicking you off... that might be considered proof of God's existence.

hee hee

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jonjon42

oops please delete..somebody...

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