Theory Behind the matrix - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Minorci · 03-15-2005, 06:00 PM

I just purchased the box set of the matrix, .. bit slow here in Australia.. but i was watching the bonus disc that contains philosophers takes on the theory behind the matrix. I must say it fascinated me a lot, im not sure if a few of them actually read between the lines a bit too much but a few of them linked a lot of the matrix to references in human history and philosophy.

Just got me thinking a bit, i mean hypothetically if someone is brought up in a prison, they accept it to be normal, as they haven't experienced anything to suggest otherwise. Bring a baby up in a square room, feed it via whatever means etc, but completely sealing it off from the outside world. Would the individual accept its surroundings? Or is there something in us that knows there is more to the world?.. I dunno im rambling a bit here, but it was just something i was having a think about, what do you guys think?

cybersharp · 03-15-2005, 06:17 PM

Honestly that movie is soaked in philosphy.. I remember the first time I saw it... I didnt understand all the underlying concepts. But the second time I watched all the movie's one after anouther I recognized alot of the older philosphys in some of the scene's where things seem to happen when people in the movie make decisions and such.. Anyway I liked the movie alot

And yes I think that a individual is forced to either submit and be changed by his/her area.. Or change what his/her area is like. Like saying that a nice good person would prefer to be in good company..

Mantus · 03-15-2005, 10:00 PM

The ultimate problem is that we can never know when we are in the "real" world. This is something I thought they were going to explore in the 3rd movie when Neo attained super powers outside the matrix. Yet the directors copped out for a "bloockbuster" approach; forgeting that what made the original Matrix much more then just an action movie was the deep questions it posed. Hense they gave some five second exlanation to make room for more fighting and the techo music. I think those hollywood agents got to the Wachowskis

The follow up to the "real" world delima is the question of why the Matrix is actually bad. If you are allowed to live your little life - find love, find your soul, have a family, grow old and wise in a house full of grandkids and die while at the same time providing energy for another inteligent species would that be concidered parasitism, mutualism or commensalism?

There is also the whole concept of choice. Now I am not a big believer in freewill, but without going into that is there a difference between making choices based on events that where determined by nature and those determined by an inteligence?

Just some random thoughts

mbchills · 03-20-2005, 08:38 PM

well the reason that the 2nd and 3rd movies are different then the 1st, is because they stole the whole concept from someone else. I forget how it actually went, but some lady wrote the whole thing and then those two brothers made it their own. they made the next two by themselves which is why it seems to lack something

Johnny Rotten · 03-20-2005, 10:56 PM

Although the culmination of the Matrix trilogy is thematically disappointing, you could argue that it had to end with the maintenance of the status quo in order to perpetuate the possibility of a virtual prison surrounding the viewer. That unsettling possibility is largely why the original film wasn't just a pop culture flash in the pan. Unfortunately, the use for humans that the film laid out is impractical and inefficient; the robots could have easily survived on geothermal energy. I find this human prison as a lab experiment to be much more compelling.

Is there more to the fabric of reality than meets the eye? I've read too much paranormal material to be comfortable in the concrete world. Is humanity in some kind of enclosure of which we are not aware? I find Fermi's Paradox raises a lot of questions we'll probably never be able to answer until E.T. lands a spaceship on the White House lawn.

It's important to keep in mind one of Arthur C. Clarke's laws--that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. I find it hard to believe that, given the age of the universe and the number of planets that could have nurtured intelligent life in this time frame, that Earth could be in this apparent backwater mote of the galaxy. Very unlikely. Yet here we are, reaching out with our radio telescopes to the depths of space and hearing only the echoes of natural phenomena. I contend that space should be dominated by intelligent life and organized by a species, or a coalition of species, that stood the test of time. Either we have bloomed in the wake of a staggering cataclysm, or there is something more to life and the universe than meets the eye. And the odds, in my opinion, favor suspicion, once Occam's Razor is applied.

Is this gap, between the apparent and what should be, that has been historically covered by religion. As long as the stars are silent, the gods will reign, despite the advances of science. And perhaps, ironically, it is the gods themselves who veil our eyes.

Minorci · 03-21-2005, 07:20 PM

^^^ Thanks for comments, has given me a few things to dwell over on my lunch break.

Willravel · 03-22-2005, 10:48 PM

I'm not sure how the Matix fits into parsimony. Chatton's anti-razor might be a better applied principle.

muttonglutton · 03-23-2005, 12:55 PM

[QUOTE=cybersharp]And yes I think that a individual is forced to either submit and be changed by his/her area.. Or change what his/her area is like.QUOTE]

Like a goldfish? They change their size according to their living space. I think there's a similarity there to how we grow in the world. Will a child raised from infancy in an empty room ever wonder what is outside the walls? Or will he grow up thinking all there is to life is what is within his limited experience?

But then, why do any of us ever wonder what happens outside of life? Thought it would only take one person, what sparked that thought? Is it natural? Or soemthing else?

Bah, it's all far too deep for me.

archpaladin · 03-24-2005, 02:43 PM

Quote:

But then, why do any of us ever wonder what happens outside of life? Thought it would only take one person, what sparked that thought? Is it natural? Or soemthing else?

It seems very natural to me. At the entry level, death is something that - as far as my experience goes - happens to all of us eventually. Since we don't know what happens after death, it makes sense to wonder what happens outside of life, or if the existence that we know around us is all there is, or if there's someone above our universe pulling the cosmic strings.

Dbass · 03-29-2005, 11:12 AM

The Matrix seemed to me to suggest the role of God in everyday life. If you take the opposition betwixt the Oracle and the...old guy person, you see the Yin and Yang of everyday life (stating the obvious, and really how obvious could they have made that!) but you never see any real guiding force over anybody in this movie. Well...aside from fate and inevitability. But that's what it really comes down to. God, maybe as a creator, or just a passive observer, passed on the daily care of people and events to balance. There's no ONE person who can arbitrate everyone's destiny, even he's ruled by balance. It sort of adds up to (I think) God having become nature, or a cycle. There was a time (before machines) that events happened that remained permanent. The Matrix was a change, and a long-standing one. After that, after the subjugation of humans, though, long-lasting changes ceased. Neo, the One, eventually gets balanced out of the equation, and so God (as Nature) continues the cycle. The Sun rising in the end symbolizes the eventuality of the cycle.

Stompy · 03-29-2005, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbchills

well the reason that the 2nd and 3rd movies are different then the 1st, is because they stole the whole concept from someone else. I forget how it actually went, but some lady wrote the whole thing and then those two brothers made it their own. they made the next two by themselves which is why it seems to lack something

hahahaha, don't believe everything you read, dude

TawG · 03-30-2005, 10:18 PM

hehe... they are actually quite into the stuff they made though. ive read and seen alot of the same stuff they had when they made the movie, and it seems that they really developed alot of ideas into something big and tried to connect everything in this movie.

cellophanedeity · 03-31-2005, 06:51 AM

We actually went to see the second Matrix with my philosophy class. I promise I'll search for all of the handouts we got discussing the philosophy involved with the first. It was quite awesome.

Though it's an interesting question to ponder, I don't think it really even matters. We are where we are, and all we have is our sense experiences. It's not as if a giant classy man is going to come offer us pills for us to become superheros. Hell, even if a giant classy man gave you pills telling you all of the stuff that Morpheus told Neo, I doubt most of us would take them!

archpaladin · 04-01-2005, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Though it's an interesting question to ponder, I don't think it really even matters.

Are you sure? The possibility of life outside of the existence we know doesn't really matter?

IMO, it's one of the most important questions out there. Yeah, the chances of us coming across an individual who tells us that we're slaves in a virtual reality world is rather slim, but the generic idea of life being greater than the sum of our sensory experiences I think is extremely important and matters greatly. On one level, it leads us to the idea that there are ways of thinking and viewing the world that are not possible by our own means, and it leads us to discover those means (ie. infrared, the use of x-rays, etc.) On another level, it challenges us to consider the spiritual and higher aspects of the meaning of life.

Slavakion · 04-01-2005, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Rotten

Unfortunately, the use for humans that the film laid out is impractical and inefficient; the robots could have easily survived on geothermal energy. I find this human prison as a lab experiment to be much more compelling.

I think I read somewhere that the original concept was for the humans to be part of a massive distributed processing network. But they thought that might be too technical for some people to grasp.

korovadroog · 04-01-2005, 07:19 PM

Dude, the original matrix is not only one of the best action movies EVER, but it's hella deep.
I think the overall philosophies alluded to in the movie concern government, rather than "reality" per se. First of all, i'm into conspiracy theories, and while some are really out there, I believe that the government has hidden agendas. We live in the government's "matrix", brainwashed by the media and more concerned with frivolous BS like celebrity gossip, latest fashion trends, and American Idol, while those who pull the strings go on doing whatever it is they do. We form a symbiotic relationship with government, but we're kept in the dark as to what is really going on. We know only what THEY want us to know. When one of us gets out of line and thinks outside their little box, they use the media to discredit and isolate that person. Foreign culprits are assasinated by puppet agencies and shadowy wetwork organizations. And, it gets deeper: Just when Neo thought he knew all the truths, the architect tells him that even though he was thinking outside the box, there was an even BIGGER box that held the smaller box. Therefore, how can we really ever know anything? Study socrates man, this shit is crazy!
This shit is hella deep, i can't even conjure the vocab to put what i'm trying to put.

However, i wanna say that "reloaded' and "revolutions" sucked ass. These stupid ass religious references were half-assed and convoluted, all it did was make me angry.

korovadroog@hotmail.com

03-15-2005, 06:00 PM	#1 (permalink)
Minorci Tilted Location: Canberra	Theory Behind the matrix I just purchased the box set of the matrix, .. bit slow here in Australia.. but i was watching the bonus disc that contains philosophers takes on the theory behind the matrix. I must say it fascinated me a lot, im not sure if a few of them actually read between the lines a bit too much but a few of them linked a lot of the matrix to references in human history and philosophy. Just got me thinking a bit, i mean hypothetically if someone is brought up in a prison, they accept it to be normal, as they haven't experienced anything to suggest otherwise. Bring a baby up in a square room, feed it via whatever means etc, but completely sealing it off from the outside world. Would the individual accept its surroundings? Or is there something in us that knows there is more to the world?.. I dunno im rambling a bit here, but it was just something i was having a think about, what do you guys think?

03-15-2005, 06:17 PM	#2 (permalink)
cybersharp Insane	Honestly that movie is soaked in philosphy.. I remember the first time I saw it... I didnt understand all the underlying concepts. But the second time I watched all the movie's one after anouther I recognized alot of the older philosphys in some of the scene's where things seem to happen when people in the movie make decisions and such.. Anyway I liked the movie alot And yes I think that a individual is forced to either submit and be changed by his/her area.. Or change what his/her area is like. Like saying that a nice good person would prefer to be in good company.. __________________ 0PtIcAl

03-20-2005, 08:38 PM	#4 (permalink)
mbchills Insane Location: NJ	well the reason that the 2nd and 3rd movies are different then the 1st, is because they stole the whole concept from someone else. I forget how it actually went, but some lady wrote the whole thing and then those two brothers made it their own. they made the next two by themselves which is why it seems to lack something __________________ rawr.

03-20-2005, 10:56 PM	#5 (permalink)
Johnny Rotten lost and found Location: Berkeley	Although the culmination of the Matrix trilogy is thematically disappointing, you could argue that it had to end with the maintenance of the status quo in order to perpetuate the possibility of a virtual prison surrounding the viewer. That unsettling possibility is largely why the original film wasn't just a pop culture flash in the pan. Unfortunately, the use for humans that the film laid out is impractical and inefficient; the robots could have easily survived on geothermal energy. I find this human prison as a lab experiment to be much more compelling. Is there more to the fabric of reality than meets the eye? I've read too much paranormal material to be comfortable in the concrete world. Is humanity in some kind of enclosure of which we are not aware? I find Fermi's Paradox raises a lot of questions we'll probably never be able to answer until E.T. lands a spaceship on the White House lawn. It's important to keep in mind one of Arthur C. Clarke's laws--that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. I find it hard to believe that, given the age of the universe and the number of planets that could have nurtured intelligent life in this time frame, that Earth could be in this apparent backwater mote of the galaxy. Very unlikely. Yet here we are, reaching out with our radio telescopes to the depths of space and hearing only the echoes of natural phenomena. I contend that space should be dominated by intelligent life and organized by a species, or a coalition of species, that stood the test of time. Either we have bloomed in the wake of a staggering cataclysm, or there is something more to life and the universe than meets the eye. And the odds, in my opinion, favor suspicion, once Occam's Razor is applied. Is this gap, between the apparent and what should be, that has been historically covered by religion. As long as the stars are silent, the gods will reign, despite the advances of science. And perhaps, ironically, it is the gods themselves who veil our eyes. __________________ "The idea that money doesn't buy you happiness is a lie put about by the rich, to stop the poor from killing them." -- Michael Caine

03-23-2005, 12:55 PM	#8 (permalink)
muttonglutton Crazy Location: K-W. Err... -dot.	[QUOTE=cybersharp]And yes I think that a individual is forced to either submit and be changed by his/her area.. Or change what his/her area is like.QUOTE] Like a goldfish? They change their size according to their living space. I think there's a similarity there to how we grow in the world. Will a child raised from infancy in an empty room ever wonder what is outside the walls? Or will he grow up thinking all there is to life is what is within his limited experience? But then, why do any of us ever wonder what happens outside of life? Thought it would only take one person, what sparked that thought? Is it natural? Or soemthing else? Bah, it's all far too deep for me. __________________ Cellar Door.

03-15-2005, 10:00 PM	#3 (permalink)
Mantus lascivious	The ultimate problem is that we can never know when we are in the "real" world. This is something I thought they were going to explore in the 3rd movie when Neo attained super powers outside the matrix. Yet the directors copped out for a "bloockbuster" approach; forgeting that what made the original Matrix much more then just an action movie was the deep questions it posed. Hense they gave some five second exlanation to make room for more fighting and the techo music. I think those hollywood agents got to the Wachowskis The follow up to the "real" world delima is the question of why the Matrix is actually bad. If you are allowed to live your little life - find love, find your soul, have a family, grow old and wise in a house full of grandkids and die while at the same time providing energy for another inteligent species would that be concidered parasitism, mutualism or commensalism? There is also the whole concept of choice. Now I am not a big believer in freewill, but without going into that is there a difference between making choices based on events that where determined by nature and those determined by an inteligence? Just some random thoughts

03-21-2005, 07:20 PM	#6 (permalink)
Minorci Tilted Location: Canberra	^^^ Thanks for comments, has given me a few things to dwell over on my lunch break.

03-22-2005, 10:48 PM	#7 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I'm not sure how the Matix fits into parsimony. Chatton's anti-razor might be a better applied principle.

03-29-2005, 11:12 AM	#10 (permalink)
Dbass Crazy	The Matrix seemed to me to suggest the role of God in everyday life. If you take the opposition betwixt the Oracle and the...old guy person, you see the Yin and Yang of everyday life (stating the obvious, and really how obvious could they have made that!) but you never see any real guiding force over anybody in this movie. Well...aside from fate and inevitability. But that's what it really comes down to. God, maybe as a creator, or just a passive observer, passed on the daily care of people and events to balance. There's no ONE person who can arbitrate everyone's destiny, even he's ruled by balance. It sort of adds up to (I think) God having become nature, or a cycle. There was a time (before machines) that events happened that remained permanent. The Matrix was a change, and a long-standing one. After that, after the subjugation of humans, though, long-lasting changes ceased. Neo, the One, eventually gets balanced out of the equation, and so God (as Nature) continues the cycle. The Sun rising in the end symbolizes the eventuality of the cycle.

03-30-2005, 10:18 PM	#12 (permalink)
TawG Crazy	hehe... they are actually quite into the stuff they made though. ive read and seen alot of the same stuff they had when they made the movie, and it seems that they really developed alot of ideas into something big and tried to connect everything in this movie.

03-31-2005, 06:51 AM	#13 (permalink)
cellophanedeity Heliotrope Location: A warm room	We actually went to see the second Matrix with my philosophy class. I promise I'll search for all of the handouts we got discussing the philosophy involved with the first. It was quite awesome. Though it's an interesting question to ponder, I don't think it really even matters. We are where we are, and all we have is our sense experiences. It's not as if a giant classy man is going to come offer us pills for us to become superheros. Hell, even if a giant classy man gave you pills telling you all of the stuff that Morpheus told Neo, I doubt most of us would take them!

04-01-2005, 07:19 PM	#16 (permalink)
korovadroog Upright	I got theories Dude, the original matrix is not only one of the best action movies EVER, but it's hella deep. I think the overall philosophies alluded to in the movie concern government, rather than "reality" per se. First of all, i'm into conspiracy theories, and while some are really out there, I believe that the government has hidden agendas. We live in the government's "matrix", brainwashed by the media and more concerned with frivolous BS like celebrity gossip, latest fashion trends, and American Idol, while those who pull the strings go on doing whatever it is they do. We form a symbiotic relationship with government, but we're kept in the dark as to what is really going on. We know only what THEY want us to know. When one of us gets out of line and thinks outside their little box, they use the media to discredit and isolate that person. Foreign culprits are assasinated by puppet agencies and shadowy wetwork organizations. And, it gets deeper: Just when Neo thought he knew all the truths, the architect tells him that even though he was thinking outside the box, there was an even BIGGER box that held the smaller box. Therefore, how can we really ever know anything? Study socrates man, this shit is crazy! This shit is hella deep, i can't even conjure the vocab to put what i'm trying to put. However, i wanna say that "reloaded' and "revolutions" sucked ass. These stupid ass religious references were half-assed and convoluted, all it did was make me angry. korovadroog@hotmail.com