Sticky

Get this.

Let's say I jump as far as I can and I end up jumping 2 meters.

With a little bit of effort there is no reason why I should not be able to jump 1/10 of a milimeter more than that.

And there is also no reason why I should not be able to jump 1/10 of a milimeter more (2 meters and 2/10 of a milimeter) than that.

And there is also no reason why I should not be able to jump 1/10 of a milimeter more (2 meters and 3/10 of a milimeter) than that.

And what about 1/10 of a milimeter more than that?

And so on.

Therefore there is no reason that I should not be able to conclude that I can jump a distance of 100km or more.
And there is no reason that you should not be able to conclude that you can jump a disatnce of 100km or more.

Am I wrong?

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Sticky The Stickman

krwlz

In theory no...In practice yes...Try it sometime...see what happens.

Dragonlich

Yes you are wrong. Logic dictates that you can NOT jump a bit more, seeing that you jumped as far as you can...

Of course, in practice, there's also a limit to how far humans can possibly jump, and nobody could ever jump further. Therefore, your "adding a small distance X number of times" does not work.

If we say that you jump as far as you can *today*, and then work out, and try again, I'd say you might be able to add a bit. If you work out more and more, you add more and more distance, but the added distance grows smaller and smaller, until you reach your natural limit. That's reality for ya.

Sticky

Let me rephrase a bit.

Let's say I did not jump ,my farthest but I just jumped an unspecified distance. Why can't I jump a little farther?

Who says that there is a limit to how far humans can possibly jump.

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Sticky The Stickman

Golux

Well... if you jump an unspecified amount, and then you keep adding, you eventually WILL reach your limit, and at that point we have reduced the problem to one already solved. I'm not sure that there is an absolute limit to how far humans can jump, however there is a finite control we have over our muscles. If you could jump a set distance and then jump that distance + .1 mm more than that, and then X +.2 mm I would be very impressed indeed.

Peetster

You will continue until you reach your limit. Then you will have reached your limit.

Dragonlich

Elementary physics says so.

How far a creature can jump depends on:
1) gravity
2) strength of leg muscles + back muscles
3) weight of creature
4) forward momentum (i.e. how far you ran before jumping)

It's very simple really: the human body can only expend a certain amount of energy to jump. This jump must move the human <b>up</b> and <b>forward</b>. The initial speed at which you move up, determines how long it will take for gravity to pull you back to the ground. This time directly relates to the distance you can move forward. This forward speed is pretty much linear, if we disregard any drag and such.

Suppose we take the extremes, with you standing still and then jumping:
1) you use all available energy to jump up. This means that you have a lot of speed upwards, and it will take a long time for you to get back on the ground. However, you did not get any speed forwards, and do not move an inch.
2) you use all your energy to jump forward. Because your feet do not leave the ground (for lack of upwards energy expenditure) this means you don't move at all (and might fall over, breaking your teeth).

Somewhere between these two extremes, one has an optimum, which gets you to your maximum jump distance. One could add forward speed from a bit of running before the jump, but this is limited by how fast one can physically run...

Now, as I said, there is only a limited amount of energy available for jumping, and it must be used to propel your weight into the sky. The heavier you are, the more energy this costs. The energy gained by adding extra muscle weight is therefore negated by that extra added weight.

Thus, there is a limit to how far you can jump. Q.E.D.

(By the way, if all of that didn't convince you: The maximum speed one can achieve is always less than the speed of light. Therefore, your forward and upward speeds are limited, which means gravity *will* pull you down eventually. This means that there is a theoretical maximum distance you can jump. Another bit of evidence that proves you wrong. )

Antagony

Okay. At that point, you can jump "a little farther". But at one point, you *will* jump your farthest.

Since you didn't jump your farthest, that means that you either didn't put out full effort, or conditions weren't optimal. When you reach optimal conditions (weather, state of mind, running distance, terrain type, etc) and you put forth all of your available effort (physical and mental), then you will jump your farthest. The distance you jump then will be your upper limit. Unless of course you find a way to improve some of those aforementioned conditions (such as physical strength), upon which your distance will be slightly lengthened. But you'll still have an upper limit.

Why is this even a thread, and why did I bother to reply?

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reconmike

If I stick him in the ass with one of those big Bugs Bunny sized pins he will jump farther I bet.

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Eviltree

I once thought up somthing similar to this, it is quite puzzling when you really think about it in a non-scientific manner.

rogue49

So basically the opposite of Zeno's paradox.

That doesn't work either, when you are not taking logic to an extreme
And apply it to reality.

Dragonlich

How's about this:

Suppose you jump up with speed X, and forward with speed Y (combined into a diagonal move, of course). Now, either speed X is large enough to escape earth's gravity, or it is not. If it is, you're going to die for lack of oxygen; if it is not, you will eventually fall down. Given that your horizontal speed Y is finite, you will have a limit on how far you can jump.

...unless you escape earth's gravity field, in which case you're dead (as stated previously). In that case, good for you, and goodbye.

Sticky

I thougth that this was the philosophy board but it looks as though I have stumbled in to someones physics lab.

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Sticky The Stickman

BBtB

Well I mean it is really not a philosophical question. It IS a physics question. The human mind is the same way. There IS a maxium level it can go. Of course 97% of people never get nearly close to that and probably about 94% don't even try.

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Sticky

I know that physics play a role and that is the whole point of the question - that in theory we should be able to out jump physics.

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Sticky The Stickman

vermin

Theory without practical application is kind of pointless isn't it?

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Podmore

No, you're making the mistake of assuming that philosophy exists completely outside the realm of physics. What you asked had both philosophical and physical implications. Physics puts a limitation on the system you're talking about (human muscular/skeleltal system). I mean, taking your original post to the extreme, why can't you jump an infinite distance?

I think there's an interesting philosophical lesson in here though. People often talk about other, less tangible things the way you talked about jumping. "If I just keep improving a little at a time, there's no limit to what I can accomplish." The reality is that there might very well be a limit, even if we're not aware of its existence.

People error on both sides. Some don't attempt to go outside of limits that they believe to exist, when sometimes they don't. Others keep trying to exceed limits that do exist, but of which they're unaware. Both are sad, though I think the first is sadder.

Sticky

Theory with practical application is often pointless too because the practicle application never matches the theory.

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icy_ca

I would think that aside from the external physics of the problem, ie, momentum vs gravity, there is the biological limits of your skeleton and muscles to consider. Your body is just not equipped to deal with that sort of repetitive stress and at some point you will break. That may be by exerting too much force in your "takeoff", or the landing my tax your joints' abilities to absorb the impact.
Both of which factor in a remarkable amount of pain to let you know that you're alive.

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Jerry Manderine

how about working it backwards... if I can jump an unspecified maximum distance, it stands to reason that I can also jump half that distance.... and half of that...and so on - untill.. I can move a distance that is unoticable to the human eye. Which means I can creep up on you guys whenever and wherever I want! (allbeit really, really slowly). Not philosophical, but bullet time did need a scientific explanation.

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Slims

no, don't think that you can continually add a set distance, rather, think you can increase your jump a fraction more each time.

Then your situation parallels a famous paradox, I forget the name:

A man goes on a journey, if he first walks halfway, then he walks half of the remaining distance, and then he walks half of the remaining distance, etc. how long will it take him to finish his journey?

The problem with jumping, is that you can't just add x distance on each time. Instead, the farther you jump, the more difficult it gets to jump a little bit farther. Diminishing returns kicks in and limits you.

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Thraeryn

While the theory as a pure idea makes sense, it's like seeing how many times you can fold a piece of paper in half. No matter how long the piece of paper, because of the added thickness each time, there is a set, finite maximum number of times any piece of paper can be folded in half. (I think it's . . . bah, I forget, but I saw it on Mr. Wizzard when I was a kid.)

Anyway, point being that everything is possible in theory. In theory, I could somehow eat the sun. PRACTICALLY, too many things would have to change drastically for it to happen.

Macheath

You wanna jump from one side of the world to the other? Why bother? Just find a large enough lever and fulcrum - make the world move instead.