Zenir

I'm not entirely sure why people think that by using an expletive they are explaining themselves better. I agree that you can say that it brings a vivid picture which is worth a thousand words... however it's like have those one thousand words colliding together at once creating merely confusion and at worst aggression. Wouldn't it be simple to just make the point and not confuse it by replacing actual arguements with expletives and curses?

This also goes two ways. First why do people feel that curse words express themselves better when often times the are commas or at best poor expressions of discomfort or aggression? Secondly I don't know how many people have had problems with miscommunications when someone say ouch or some such if they are startled, it may be me. I tend to rough-house and "flirt" so people will sometimes exclaim a painful statement such as 'ouch' and I will do my best to protect or avoid touching the person (depending on the circumstance) as possible. Is this common, and if so why?

__________________
Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success.-Albert Schweitzer, philosopher, physician, musician, Nobel laureate
(1875-1965)

Master_Shake

Could you give an example of how people use expletives to explain themselves; I'm not sure what you mean.

__________________
-------------
You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

john_713

They aren't explaining themselves at all. By using an expletive you are degrading your agrument. People who use them tend to be those who have the weakest argument or the least skill at expressing themselves. They use them because they can't do any better. Of course there are exceptions and they can add an emphasis to a reply but they should never be used to explain. They can't. Makes you look like a bit of an idiot really if you use them in an intelligent discussion.

Food Reef

I would also like an example... because I'm not 100% sure I know what you mean.

However, I have to disagree with John_713 here. I believe swearing is a beautiful thing. We have all these words in our language, why not use them to help convey emotion as much as possible?

Of course this is very dependent on company and context... I'd never want to offend anyone just because I used a word that was distasteful to them. But when I'm with my friends, it adds colour and expression to our conversations (not just by turning the air blue... )

Fuck-a-doodle-do!

__________________
Are you clinging tenaciously to my buttocks?

Stompy

People are too anal and concerned with swearing instead of focusing on the more important task of listening to the actual point.

It's really not a big deal. I don't know why people, in this day and age, still get pissy or uncomfortable with WORDS.

Contrary to popular belief, swearing does not ACTUALLY degrade your argument or make you less intelligent. I swear constantly, and I'm actually pretty well mannered and intelligent. I don't swear around family because my grandma doesn't like it too much. I respect that. I don't agree with it, but I respect it because I love her and she's my grandma. If it was your average person, I wouldn't really care much.

Saying, "My fucking throat has been killing me for the past 2 weeks," isn't really a problem. I could see if someone was yelling, "You fucking asshole. You worthless cocksucking fucker." Yeah, they aren't really saying much or being very original.. and come off as pretty angry and aggressive. That might deserve a, "Calm the fuck down," at most..

Casual use... "What a dumb fuck. Prince Harry wore a Nazi outfit. If his mother was alive, she'd kick his fucking ass after all she's done to help out in the world." You get the point. The choice of words matters very little.

Asking why one uses them is like asking, "Why do you say rain instead of precipitation?" Because it's... what you use. Who knows.

"Bad" words are only bad because your parents told you they are. Remember that... there's absolutely no reason WHATSOEVER to treat these as taboo. Until a reason is provided, they should be treated just like any other word in any language.

__________________
I love lamp.

degrawj

Thank you Stompy for saying what I was going to say.

I don't use expletives very heavily, but I do use them daily, and I also consider myself to be a fairly intelligent person. The words that I use don't degrade my "arguments," if I'm making one, they just add emphasis to something that I am saying, feeling, doing, whatever.

For example, if one of my buddies asks me to get him a pop, and he's been a dick all day, I won't just say "No," I'd be more likely to say "Hell no!" or "Fuck no!"

Now, I can kind of see what john_713 is saying by "it's not explaining themselves," because I chose to use a curse word instead of saying "No, you have been a jerk all day, so I won't get you a pop."

With that said, honestly, which statement would sound more awkward or cause some sort of "social discomfort?" Me saying "Fuck no!" or me giving that long explanation. I can tell you right now that if I gave that long explanation around any of my friends, they would look at me wierdly and it would create all sorts of awkward tension. In other words, cursing is an expression of who I am, and that doesn't make me worse of a person.

Redlemon

The overuse of profanity makes it essentially meaningless. I very rarely swear, so when I do, people sit up and take notice.

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

ObieX

Stompy pretty much summed up my view as well.

Having been born and raised in NJ i've been known to utter the occasional swear word LOL. I also respect the time place and audience of a swear as stompy mentioned. For example i rarely swear on the TFP. But normally i swear up a fucking storm.

__________________
We Must Dissent.

StanT

I'm really not sure who I'm misquoting:

I curse at work, regularly. It is necesary to keep up with my peers, I tone it down outside of work.

Zenir

This is excellent I don't know where to begin. Thank you very much 'degrawj', 'Stompy' and 'Food Reef' for giving examples. An expletive is generally a word used for the simple value of attention. It allows someone to poor emotions into the vocalic nature of the word. I do not know, has anyone hear the fuck song. It actually gives a good definition of how fuck is a multitask word. This is handy, however I believe 'Redlemon' hit it on the head when he explains that profanity is used to the point of it being meaningless.
Why would explaining youself and telling teh truth make it awkward. Would it not absolve the situation better if you told him what was offending you when they did it. Possibly you migth have gotten that soda, and done a nice things for them then.

I think that cursing (which is only one of the ways to use an expletive) has a place. I believe it is for aggression since it adds that kind of aggresive edge. Also what defines these curses if they are used for everything and anything. I agree that the beauty of the english language is it's openness and ability to evolve (there I go using a dirty word) and grow with the times. However if we use only words which have massivly extensive meanings then we are basically speaking in the eloquence of Sign Language where you are expected to catch the gist of the signals and make a statement out of it for yourself.

Another example besides cursing would be when someone hears a noise or slips a little and says "Ouch!" reflexively. Also when people graze eachother and one yelps, these are other instances of expletives used in awkward cases.

__________________
Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success.-Albert Schweitzer, philosopher, physician, musician, Nobel laureate
(1875-1965)

degrawj

I was wondering if that was the response I was going go get, but I felt it was too winded at the time to explain it. The reason why explaining myself and telling the truth would make it awkward is because my friends, of which I don't have a ton of because I just keep REALLY close friends, and I have a closer relationship than most people and because of this, lots of things don't need to be said directly because both parties are already aware of what is going on. Like in the example I gave, I understand that my friends aren't perfect and that sometimes they can be jerks, and they realize this too, and my friends are smart enough to know when they've been jerks, just like me. So if my friend asks for a pop after he's been a jerk all day, and I say "Fuck no," that is essentially telling him "Hey, you've been a jerk all day, get your own damn pop." (using another explitive there). But since we are so close, none of this has an affect on our relationship. I have unconditional love for my friends and close family, as they do for me. So just because someone wasn't using their best judgement and acts like a jerk, that's not a reason to "sit down and have a talk." We just let it slip by. And that is what I feel is a perfect example of an explitive is. And that's a pretty interesting definition of expletive. I guess I never really knew what the definition was. Because in my example, the prescence of an expletive WAS the meaning, wheras the true definition of an expletive is that it has no meaning. I guess that might mean I don't use expletives at all!

El Kaz

Pretty much what Redlemon said...
If someone swears constantly, I'll just smile and find the guy mildly amusing. If you use a swear to insist on a characteristic, or to denote a mood (especialy online, where mood cannot be seen by body language or voice tone), then why not?

"I was drunk" is lesser than "I was pissed drunk" which is lesser than "I was so fucking drunk"
"I'm fucking sick" clearly shows that the sickness is badly getting on the nerves of the person, as opposed to a neutral "I'm sick".

Zenir

I find it interesting the different uses of expletives, which in this case I refering to swearing. It seems to have many meanings. Perchance between close friends it seems to mean, 'I'm mad at you, think about that!' or to simply add strength to an idea. The reason I am asking is it carries different weights with different people and I thought I'd see if there was a very wide spread of use of expletives, or if it were more concentrated.

__________________
Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success.-Albert Schweitzer, philosopher, physician, musician, Nobel laureate
(1875-1965)

Carno

I think it's silly how people are so put off by curse words.

I curse a storm in front of my friends, but it doesn't mean that I'm mad or angry or anything. Cursing does not have a meaning. I use curse words to accentuate whatever I'm saying.

Plus I like to piss off old people and uptight people. It consider it my mission in life to piss off people who are get their panties in a twist about stupid shit.

Sweetpea

I have been known to curse from time to time, when it is appropriate to do so, not at work or anything lol . . . but i do so only to add a little zest to my argument, almost as puncutation, especially if i am merely joking about something with friends... I do not just use curse words in place of coming up with a intelligent response in a debate for instance, but i do use them.

I respect people who choose not to use them . . .

I respect people who Do choose to use them . ..

it's really up the the invididual . . .

__________________
Having a Pet Will Change Your Life!
Looking for a great pet?! Click Here!
"I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself"

flstf

I don't cuss very much but I found the following rather interesting. Who knows in years to come a word as versatile as this may become acceptable everyday language. But then again, it probably wouldn't be used as much if it didn't shock somewhat.

TexanAvenger

So in order to be involved in intelligent discussion, one must degrade and abridge their vocabulary? An expletive is a word just like any other except in the sense that it generally conveys strong emotion. What's more, they are often much more versatile than other words and can be used in many different ways. The idea of bad words was created by people who didn't want to hear the strong arguments and harsh words of others. These were people who were more close-minded to language and thus quite possibly less intelligent and less passionate people than those using the words.

If you truly want "bad" words to go away, use them like there's no tomorrow. The more you use them, the less important and less vicious they become until they are essentially meaningless. But I can promise you new ones will step up and be created in their place because they are an essential part of any language.

Think of language as the family of your SO. If you dislike various members of the family enough, you either join in anyway and probably end up griping about them for the rest of your life, or you decide not to join that family. If that's the case, you might join another family, learn another language. But those same members of the family'll be there. They'll look different, sound different, but they act exactly the same. And if you decide not to join another family? You create your own language, that way you can be sure it's as "pure" as you like. But what'll you say when you slam your thumb with a hammer or the dog urinates on the rug? Whatever you decide you say, you probably wouldn't like the translation...

I don't believe expletives degrade an argument any more than does, say, your opinion differing from the other person's. If the other guy isn't willing to use certain words in his argument, you've got the upper hand on them. And they may very well decide that their argument was superior to yours because they didn't use certain words, but what sense does that make? Their argument was superior because you managed to employ quick, concise, powerful emotion and they didn't? No.

Long live fuck.

macmanmike6100

I believe that expletives aren't a "true" form of communication and often convey an incomplete image.

My use of them is typically in the form of humor, but I am (of course) guilty of using them in frustration.

zen_tom

Conditions such as tourettes show us that the swear-word is tied up deep within our minds - there is some anecdotal evidence that suggests that barking dogs, cheeping birds, whalesong, and all manner of other animal noises might be loosely translated as 'fuckoff, fuckoff, fuckoff'
So much for Dr Doolitlle talking to the animals eh?

pinkie

People who explain themselves in an arguement by using swear words are either

a) Too dumb to come up with anything better like you said, or
b) They don’t give a rat’s ass.
c) They’re not trying to win jack shit.
d) They just don’t fucking care.
e) b) c) and d)

frogza

To say that swearing enhances an argument or point because you're not limiting your vocabulary is ridiculous. Be honest with yourself, when you hear someone using swear words to make a point they are rarely, if ever, using the words in proper context to convey any real meaning. Read the posts in this forum alone and substitute the word dung or defecation for the word shit and you'll see the emptiness of that argument.

People use swearing as punctuation, plain and simple. It's the easiest way of adding emhasis and by nature the least effective. Pauses, tone of voice, rate of speech etc. work beautifully to convey emotion and add force to a debate, without the need to swear.

My job is to convince people to do things, I'm a marketing director and have worked as a marketing consultant to companies all over the US and Canada. I don't swear, I haven't since I was fourteen, and I am well known and respected as a person who can silence crowds,win debates and getting people to make commitments. In my time in this industry I have seen many people start out, very few become successful, the ones who do succeed are the ones who have a real mastery of their language. That mastery is evidenced by their use of the elements I mentioned earlier.

On a sidenote, if swearing was as effective as some would have us believe, don't you think we would see more of it in political debates, advertising or history changing speeches?

Stompy

Chances are, a person isn't really worth talking to if they're so fucking uptight to actually believe that swearing degrades an argument or makes one appear less intelligent.

There. I said fucking. Does that degrade that argument? Not at all whatsoever. You may THINK it does, but if ya, I don't really give a shit either way. Your problem, not mine. If you're sitting there focusing on the "bad" word instead of the point it's trying to convey then you have issues.

Sorry, but it's true.

Like I said above, unless you can provide a coherent reason that they are "bad", then they should be treated like any other word - they're only bad because your mommy told you so. So far no one has provided a reason, so get over it already!

Question what you have been told and really think about it.

__________________
I love lamp.

Master_Shake

Yes, but politicians and the like have to placate to the rubes out there who are afraid of words sending them to hell.

A word is only as good or as bad as it is in making the user's meaning clear. Fuck, for example, can sometimes be used where no other word would be as eloquent or appropriate. "I fucked Suzy last night." implies sex of a somewhat dirty or violative nature with a lack of love or social grace. Perhaps you don't fuck people, you make love to them, but I assure you people do fuck each other all the time. What other word would work as well in its place?

The same with shit. Defecation sounds serious to me, it's the kind of word a Dr. might use. I've always thought of dung as referring to animal feces. Perhaps these associations I have with these words are limited to my mind, but I think others are at least aware of these associations, whether they make them or not..

Shit, on the other hand, implies grossness, messiness and unpleasantness. Additionally, shit has taken on other meanings that defacation and dung have not, at least in informal speech.

"This new M.C. Hammer single is the shit!" has a meaning that "This new M.C. Hammer single is the defecation!" does not. Again, this is best used in informal speech, not because the word is bad, but because of the effect it would have on the audience.

As others have mentioned, expletives can often add emphasis to what a person is trying to say.

They may also function as a sort of shorthand where it isn't worth the time or effort to produce something more complex (contrast "Man, that used-car salesman down the street fucked me!" with "Fellow human, I must express my disatisfaction with the treatment I received at the Previously-owned motor vehicle retailer establishment located at 1313 Mockingbird Lane." Both convey the same information, but one is more complex than the other.) or it may function as a form of informal speech, similar to contractions. Granted, it would be inappropriate to use such informal language in formal speeches or presentations, but that isn't due to the evilness of the word, but rather to the social structures we place on speech in such contexts.

That you may have elitist problems with informal language is a result of your upbringing. Yes, the poor or the poorly educated may use expletives more frequently than the rich, but I submit that is due to the generally informal nature of employment and life the lower classes become accustomed to.

I agree that the use of expletives does not degrade an argument (at least, not any more than other unecessary adjectives or adverbs do.) However, you should accept that you live in a world with people who are still afraid of an all-seeing invisible man in the sky watching their every move. It will take several more generations before we can begin weaning them off their superstitious fear of words. In the meantime, should you ever require a mormon or rotarian to help you fix a tire or assist you with your homework, you should speak with that person in a way that makes him/her comfortable, and thus, more likely to help you.

Don't curse at mormons if you want them to help you mow the lawn just as you wouldn't speak in spanish to convince a 5 year old to do the same (assuming of course that the 5 year old does not speak spanish).

__________________
-------------
You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

Yakk

You used "reason" and "taboo" in the same sentance, as if taboos are supposed to have "reasons" behind them.

Most taboos are just taboos. Social rules that, by following them, you indicate you are aware of the cultural norms, and you are part of whatever "in" group follows those norms.

The "reason" you follow taboos is just that -- signalling you understand and follow social norms. That is why men don't walk around naked, don't wear frilly dresses, why women rarely go topless, etc.

Swearing is one taboo that was hijacked and used as a signal of belonging in some sub-groups. I'd suspect that the anti-establishment youth movement in the late 60s used swearing to declair "I don't care about your social rules", creating a seperate social heirarchy that was easier to get to the top of.

Another common thing that goes on is denegrating other in-groups and the signals they use. People want their own group to be better than other groups.

The thing is, in western society, most of the most powerful groups consider swearing taboo. The swear-words are not all that important -- they don't matter -- while not using them lets you influence or manipulate those powerful groups more effectively.

This is the first I've ever heard this theory. And it doesn't match my knowledge of swear words -- I thought a bunch of the swear taboo, in western society at least, came from "thou shall not take JHVH's name in vain".

__________________
Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

yatzr

swearing may not degrade an argument, but it'll definately make a person sound stupid if every other word is a swear. I'm talking about when people use swears as verbal pauses and what not. Most of the time they do it to sound tough, when all I can think is that they sound stupid. Using them in a meaningful manner though can be very constructive.

__________________
Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.

Master_Shake

Yes but using any word as every other word in your sentence might make you sound like you have mental problems.
"I meat went meat to meat the meat store meat for meat some meat meat meat."

I frankly find it hard to understand why rational people have such an adverse reaction to words.

When people speak in ways that you don't understand do you always think they are stupid? What about people who speak in other languages? Just because someone is presenting an argument to me in Farsi, I don't think he/she is stupid. In fact, I would do well to consider my own limitations at not being able to understand.

It might be easier to understand this in the context of other languages. In some you'll see that they employ different pronouns for formal and informal usage. You becomes Du (informal) or Sie (formal) in German for example. We don't make such distinctions in English, but if we were I'm sure you would not see people using expletives in the formal case (unless a person was really trying to make a point, like "You are an asshole, sir!")

Accents, affectations, regional differences, and informal language are not signs of stupidity, but rather of social context. The next time someone uses "fuck" in a conversation you are a party to, instead of being offended perhaps you should be happy that the person is comfortable enough around you to use such language.

__________________
-------------
You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

Zenir

Thank you Carn for making our point.

I already find that in conversations and life there are too many miscommunications, how does making something short-hand alleviate this situation. I have spent my life trying to understand people and find it quite rewarding, however I have a strong feeling that cursing will often times dredge up adrenaline and a modicum of offensiveness. Not necessarily aggression but merely a reddiness for opposition.

Most taboos have reasons behind them. For example, Jews don't eat pigs, this is reasoned from the fact that pigs are one of the few animals who carry diseases which are a contagion for humans also. Most taboos originate from some original point, although it may not apply now, they are firmly rooted and it takes time to exterminate the whole.

While I see the value of the arguement made here, it is somewhat obvious that shit has moved far beyond the limitations of simply disposing bodily waste. It has an imennse amount of meanings and probably has been used for the second most amount of words with fuck taking first.

I am going to hope this is a serious misunderstanding. It is bad enough to make me feel somewhat dumbstruck. So then is serial murder, multiple-personalities (possibly considering yourself to be someone who is long dead for example), suicide, phobias (fear of things such as air, water...), psichosis and perhaps walking into walls all good things built up deep within ourselves. These are all different things that have developed through mankinds developement. Most of these are generally caused (as we understand for the moment) by misfirings of the mind and geneological disorders. Tourettes also generally causes people to twitch and cunvulse. It can cause people to curse incessently, however this is shown in people who have already gained an understanding of curse words and are used to replace the incessant yelping and barking sounds generally made.

TexanAvenger made an example of how expletives are used to explain emotions and that the best way to get rid of them is to over use them. I find this a little obscure. First isn't the idea of conversing about exploring emotions and developing an understanding of the emotions we have, isn't cursing quite the same as simply raising our voice then (in concurrence with his argument.) Secondly, to get rid of something you don't have to desensitize and over-use something. Murder/suicide has not lost it's sting because it is common in society, nor would it if it happened all the time. People may become numbed to the feeling, but I would rather have my feeling and not have to shut myself off.

To me curse words lose their value from their extensive use. I agree that there is no reason to limit your vocabulary simply because of what others think. I for one tend to be somewhat of a different thinker from reality, and to help back this you can chat with me, check my posts, or simply notice that the mainstream now is to curse. Cursing isn't so taboo now as it was at any time in recent history. I would like you all to take a look at Stompys' second post on this thread. One arguement is that the curses are being ostracized, however this seems to be the inverse relation. Curse words and other expletives are simply the bastard words of English. Yes, expletives are english, or we wouldn't have a word for words that mean nothing, the main problem is that although they do add emphasis, excitement and 'flavor' to an explanation, it is a bit lacking in definition. Perchance, take 'fuck you'. There are many ways this could be usid, sometimes there is the lurid side, the crude/cruel side, emphatic, vengeful, departing and tons more. Although I agree 'Fuck you' is one of the more ambiguous statements, most statements involving expletives as critical points in their explanation lose the preciseness. An argument isn't lessened for the curse word. Something obviously can not naturally be less than itself. You may attempt to percieve it as so, but that is simply a personal bias or prejudice and no act of the subject. Often times though if an explanation were given then both parties may come to a better understanding suchas maybe the person hearing how the used-car dealer would take advantage of customers. Often times it is taken for granted that other people understand or atleast get a gist of what the speaker is saying and can therefore act on it. However more often then not people are left with too little information. It is simple to notice how one-sided a cursing conversation can go. This is due to the fact that there is no actual facts backing up the idea or solid statements by which someone defend or oppose your claim and so often times it is left hanging or ignored.

To be honest one of my biggest fears is of someone in an emergency situation who can't/hasn't/won't tell me how they got hurt because tehy are busy cursing or simply cursed and didn't explain the accident.

__________________
Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success.-Albert Schweitzer, philosopher, physician, musician, Nobel laureate
(1875-1965)

Yakk

Murder/Suicide is extremely rare, even in the USA. I fully expect it would lose alot of it's sting if it where common.

Conversation is about exploring emotions? I would think that only a certain chunk of the population would agree with that statement.

Someone who raises their voice constantly during conversation is also looked down upon.

I would agree that many taboos have been rationalized after the fact. I wouldn't agree that most taboos had reasons being their coming into being.

You are playing semantic games here. When you say a component of X diminishes X, you are saying "X without that component would be greater", not that X < X.

And then you pull up relativism games: we are talking about social acts, they "don't exist" outside of the beliefs, thoughts and feelings of those influenced by them. So saying that the impact is "merely" in the perception of the beholder isn't diminishing the impact at all.

__________________
Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

TexanAvenger

I think it's a little over-dramatic to put swearing on the same level as the loss of sentient, often fairly innocent, life.

And why do you have to numb yourself against certain words? What makes "fuck" bad and "hate" acceptable? "Shit" wrong and "poop" fine (if silly)? Where do you draw the border on words? How do you decide where to draw the line?

I find it much easier just to speak what comes to mind. I don't go out of my way to swear, and try not to constantly do it because it does degrade an argument to repeat any one or multiple words relentlessly, but it doesn't weigh at all upon my conscience to use various swears from time to time in the midst of my arguments.