Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > The Academy > Tilted Philosophy


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 12-14-2004, 06:12 PM   #1 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Baptisms

Note: this is a thread for relegious people on the custom of Babtisms. If you don't agree with relegion fine but don't contribute insulting comments to this thread as it serves no purpose.

I was babtised when I was a baby in a Luthern Church. I grew up learning the Luthern faith but never truely believing. It wasn't till college that I started believing. I attended a baptist church for a while and now that I have moved again i'm attending a non-denominational church. I believe the Jesus is my lord and personal savior and that is what truely matters. I don't believe the minor differences between Catholic, Luthern, Methodist, Baptists, ect really matters.

Lately I have been thinking about babtism. Some churches believe that infant baptism is wrong and babtism only counts if performed after you believe in Jesus. I am wondering what all of you think of this. Do you think my babtism is invalid and I should get rebaptised? I don't want to get rebaptised if my first one is valid because it would be denouncing my first baptism.

What do you all think?
Rekna is offline  
Old 12-14-2004, 07:55 PM   #2 (permalink)
whosoever
 
martinguerre's Avatar
 
Location: New England
similar story here.

i was baptized presby, and left the church after a while. i'm now american baptist...and i think about it once in a while. baptism doesn't have to be something performed by a minister, IMO. part of the whole idea of adult baptism is that you're making choices.

i really love the ritual at my church...it's full immersion, and a public part of the easter service. but i don't know if it's what's right for me. and i'll talk with my ministers about this...but i think it's more likely that i'll ask a few friends to do something with me. a midnight swim to an island, cliff jumping, something crazy. but i think the point of baptism is to drown a little. and so while i like the beauty of the ritual, my mind has domesticated it a little too much.

if its something that you want, or would help you be a part of the particular community...i say go for it. but the water is a symbol, not a sacrament...you've got a fair amount of leeway on this question.
__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16
martinguerre is offline  
Old 12-14-2004, 09:05 PM   #3 (permalink)
Beware the Mad Irish
 
Blackthorn's Avatar
 
Location: Wish I was on the N17...
Being raised a Catholic I was taught that baptism washes away the "original sin" with which we are all born. The right of acceptance of your faith and chosen religion is called "Confirmation". You become a confirmed Catholic when you are old enough to make that acknowledgement for yourself.

Interesting thought from your post...google will hopefully yield more background.
__________________
What are you willing to give up in order to get what you want?
Blackthorn is offline  
Old 12-14-2004, 09:34 PM   #4 (permalink)
* * *
 
Depends on the metaphorical value that you place in the ritual. You need to decide whether choosing to be Baptized is important to you to make the ritual "authentic". And since it is easily repeatable (as opposed to something like circumsizion or expensive marriages), you might as well if it is something you really care about.

It doesn't seem like you have anything to lose by doing it again... just make sure that the meaning of the Baptism is really apparent to you and isn't done out of a sense of obligation, but out of desire.
__________________
Innominate.
wilbjammin is offline  
Old 12-14-2004, 11:18 PM   #5 (permalink)
Junkie
 
It is definatly out of desire. I want my baptism to be real but I don't believe my first baptism wasn't real. I'm thinking about emailing a couple different pastors about it and see what they think.
Rekna is offline  
Old 12-15-2004, 12:20 PM   #6 (permalink)
Registered User
 
frogza's Avatar
 
Location: Right Here
Christ was very clear on the importance of Baptism and since it was important to Him, it is appropriate to want it to be "real" as you say.

Without exception in the Bible baptism was preceeded by faith, and was regarded as a solemn promise and a sign of conversion. We also find that when any doubt arose regarding wether or not a person had recieved baptism in the proper fashion and by proper authority they were re-baptised to be sure that it was done right. (see acts 19:1-7)

If I were in your situation, wondering at the vailidity of my baptism, I would make a very serious search of the scriptures, comparing what I had recieved to what Christ taught. Of course that search would involve a lot of prayer. As I'm sure you realize, baptism is to important for anyone to approach casually.
frogza is offline  
Old 12-15-2004, 01:06 PM   #7 (permalink)
Cracking the Whip
 
Lebell's Avatar
 
Location: Sexymama's arms...
I personally do not think that it matters much if a person is baptized as an infant or as an adult. The important thing is what you choose to do with your life and how you treat your fellow humans.
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!
Lebell is offline  
Old 12-15-2004, 03:10 PM   #8 (permalink)
MSD
The sky calls to us ...
 
MSD's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: CT
If you rreligion has both Baptism and Confirmation, then the Baptism is valid and your Confirmation is your full passage into the church. If the Baptism is the only distinction between members of the Church and non-members, then the Baptism should be done again when you are able to judge fopr yourself.
MSD is offline  
Old 12-15-2004, 06:43 PM   #9 (permalink)
Psycho
 
jonjon42's Avatar
 
Location: inside my own mind
I am religous...however organized religion turns me off a bit. I say your faith in jesus is enough. It doesn't matter when or if you are baptized, confirmed, or have communion. Show your faith by how you live your life. Just follow Jesus's teachings....
__________________
A damn dirty hippie without the dirty part....
jonjon42 is offline  
Old 12-15-2004, 08:07 PM   #10 (permalink)
Helplessly hoping
 
pinkie's Avatar
 
Location: Above the stars
My daughter and I were baptized together last summer.
pinkie is offline  
Old 12-15-2004, 08:51 PM   #11 (permalink)
....is off his meds...you were warned.
 
KMA-628's Avatar
 
Location: The Wild Wild West
I never really understood how different sects of Christianity sometimes have different paths to salvation.

Not that I practice much lately, but I always remembered: "I am the way, the truth, the life; no one can get to the Father except through me." (don't remember the verse, but I think I quoted it correctly).

To avoid a long post, I always felt that salvation was through acceptance of Christ, everything else was trimmings. Dance, don't dance. Sing, don't sing. Baptize, don't baptize. All of these things have a tendency to change depending on where you are come Sunday morning. However, we are speaking to the same God, correct? If all of these different denominations are speaking to the same deity, why the major shifts in doctrine from church to church?

However, the most common doctrine that is found throughout denominations is salvation through Christ. That leads me to believe that the other stuff means nothing ultimately.

/baptized Episcopalian (i.e. Catholic-Lite), but I don't think it assures or denies me a passage to heaven.
KMA-628 is offline  
Old 12-15-2004, 08:58 PM   #12 (permalink)
....is off his meds...you were warned.
 
KMA-628's Avatar
 
Location: The Wild Wild West
I thought this was a good summation:

Quote:
Many people express one last concern about baptism and its connection to salvation. Baptism is an act of obedience whereby the believer identifies with Christ. Believing in Christ comes first, then baptizing. Think about the thief on the cross. He believed in the moments just prior to his death on the cross. There was no time for baptism; yet Jesus assured him that they would meet in paradise that day. Were baptism required for salvation, the thief would have missed out. It is clear from Jesus' words that the thief was saved the moment he believed. Paul says, "For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel" (1 Corinthians 1:17).
LINK
KMA-628 is offline  
Old 12-15-2004, 09:19 PM   #13 (permalink)
Junkie
 
I don't beleive baptism is something that is required for salvation. But mearly a statement of faith to God. It pleases him that we are baptized and such I want to make sure I am baptized.
Rekna is offline  
Old 12-16-2004, 03:29 AM   #14 (permalink)
Illusionary
 
tecoyah's Avatar
 
I was Baptised as a child.....and went through confirmation as a teen.

Yet I have been told I am surely going to burn in the depths of Satans Fury, By some of the very people whom I went to Catholic school with. Guess I would need the born again/re- Baptism to secure my place. That said, it would seem more important to accept Jesus as your guide in this life, than to have your sins washed away in water.
__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
tecoyah is offline  
Old 12-16-2004, 06:05 AM   #15 (permalink)
Addict
 
I think you have to look at the example He set. If Christ found it necessary, and yet was quite outspoken regarding itmes of mosaic law, shouldn't that mean that baptism is important?
Also, he was baptised as a consenting adult.

As for the thief, we don't know if he was baptised or not. Because he was on a cross doesn't indicate that he wasn't. Baptism was a very popular event back then, hence the 'Baptist' tag for John. Also, remember that the words paradise, heaven, eternal glory can be quite significant in what they mean. So are hell, purgatory, limbo. (Another dicussion)

I for one think that baptism is an outward indicator of the inner self. I feel that it's to be undertaken by rational understanding of what you are promising to do by the act.
Baptism (traditionally by immersion) was a symbol of death and rebirth. The laying away of the old person and the assumption of a new, re-innocent life.
It's also symbolic of Christ's death and resurrection, reminding you to whom you need to be dedicating the act in order to gain the desired reward of entering heaven.
I think it's important, but only in the sense of what it represents, just as I don't think it's necessary for all rich people to sell all they own and give it to the poor as the young rich man was commanded, as long as they have the charity and desire to serve their fellow man to act as though they would have.

Would a just and merciful god sentence the soul of a mistreated child to hell for being born to parents who didn't seek to have them baptised?
WillyPete is offline  
Old 12-16-2004, 06:22 AM   #16 (permalink)
"I'm sorry. What was the question?"
 
Daoust's Avatar
 
Location: Paradise Regained
I appreciate all the thoughts on this thread, and I really appreciate how people have been respectful of Rekna's beliefs and situation. I am thankful it hasn't turned into a Christianity bash.

I'll tell you what my experience is. Where I fellowship we don't do infant baptism, largely because of the misconception endorsed by other churches that infant baptism is your 'ticket into heaven' which is in no way based on Scripture.
Jesus said "repent, and be baptized". Baptism is not a requirement of salvation, according to the Bible. True salvation is by grace, through faith. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved". Baptism is merely symbolic. It's a symbol of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. When we are 'buried with Jesus' in baptism, we are acknowledging (often before the congregation) that He died for our sins, was buried and that he rose again. Baptism is just a public display of your affiliation with Christ.
I was baptised after I was converted/saved/born again. I didn't have to be, and no one forced me to be. I could have contributed and been a part of the meetings if I wasn't baptized, but being baptized was important for me, as a public confession. The Bible makes it clear that it's not vital for our salvation, but it is strongly encouraged.

I guess I'm saying that infant baptism doesn't really mean much or accomplish anything, according to what the Bible teaches, and the Bible is my final authority. It may not be for you, but it is for me. I don't base anything in terms of spiritual matters on what I think, because what I think doesn't mean anything. I base it on what God says in His Word.
__________________
I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace
But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

Last edited by Daoust; 12-16-2004 at 06:26 AM..
Daoust is offline  
Old 12-16-2004, 06:24 AM   #17 (permalink)
Submit to me, you know you want to
 
ShaniFaye's Avatar
 
Location: Lilburn, Ga
When my daughter was "baptised" when she was an infant it was more....I was promising to raise her in the christian faith...more than an actual "baptism" by definition.

I believe that baptism is something that is done when a person is at or past the age of "innocence" and that it needs to be done when the person completely understands what it is and what it signifies
__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!
ShaniFaye is offline  
Old 12-16-2004, 07:17 AM   #18 (permalink)
Done freeloading here
 
freeload's Avatar
 
Location: on my ass :) - Norway
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaniFaye
When my daughter was "baptised" when she was an infant it was more....I was promising to raise her in the christian faith...more than an actual "baptism" by definition.

I believe that baptism is something that is done when a person is at or past the age of "innocence" and that it needs to be done when the person completely understands what it is and what it signifies
Couldn't have said it better myself. I was "babtised" as a child, but was baptised for real a few years ago.
__________________
The future ain't what it used to be.
freeload is offline  
Old 12-17-2004, 04:14 AM   #19 (permalink)
Upright
 
Location: usa
i got into a discussion with a prof once who had studied the importance of baptism (bp) and the lord's supper (ls)...he said that the 2 became imp for early xians but he couldn't explain why....he said that christ commanded many things that didn't become imp to the early community...ie foot-washing, love one another...neither of these 2 were seized upon and became common practice with pre-liturigal forms...he theorized that these 2 events bp & ls became imp because the earyl xians id them as "something jesus did that i can do"...

something i find interesting is a paradigm shift in xianity from "beliefs/practices" to "relationships" and "community-held doctrines" to "the imp of self understg"...
JinnTonic is offline  
Old 12-17-2004, 11:30 AM   #20 (permalink)
Upright
 
Location: Valdosta, GA
The sacrament of Holy Baptism is held as an important aspect of “faith” in the Christian beliefs. However, the proper way to baptize differs as much as the denominations themselves. I too was baptized as an infant in the Lutheran Church. My baptism symbolized the promise of my family and the church to raise me in a Christian household. When I was older I participated in my First Communion and eventually went through Confirmation where I made my statement of faith.

Baptism, whether you were baptized as an infant or adult, is a sign of God’s love towards you and you towards God. The sign of the cross is made on the forehead signifying God’s sacrifice for us. If a person is baptized as an infant and proceeds to live a life outside of the church they are not going to be accepted into heaven based on the fact that they were baptized. The opposite is also true. If a person is never baptized but they live a life inside the church then the person is not going to be rejected because they are not baptized.

Your baptism means only what you want it to mean. Baptism, while sometimes a public occasion, is a personal sacrament. Nobody can tell you if your baptism means more if you are an infant verses an adult and visa versa. My suggestion is to do whatever would be meaningful to you. Personally I have “remembered my baptism” through a smaller ceremony while on a retreat weekend. However, if you want to get baptized again do not hesitate. I don’t think you would be denouncing your first baptism by getting baptized again. Many people, even in the Lutheran Church, are baptized more than once. If you still have reservations I would contact a Lutheran pastor or even a Lutheran Seminary.
crapshoot is offline  
Old 12-17-2004, 01:14 PM   #21 (permalink)
Upright
 
Location: usa
i use to have a theory that during the reformation, infant baptism was too much for the reformers to handle bc moms would go to catholic priests for "secret baptisms"...another prof suggested that it had more to do with canton loyality since europe was immersed in religious wars.....

Last edited by JinnTonic; 12-17-2004 at 09:38 PM..
JinnTonic is offline  
Old 12-23-2004, 11:25 AM   #22 (permalink)
Junkie
 
So I emailed my pastor from my Lutheran Church and here is what I got back. I'm thinking about doing the same for my non-denominational church and then praying about it and hope God tells me what to do.

Quote:
We believe that in Baptism God frees us from sin and death by joining us to
the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus. We are born children of a
fallen humanity; but in the waters of baptism we are reborn children of God
and inheritors of eternal life. As we live with God and with his people, we
grow in faith, love and obedience to the will of God. We base these beliefs
on the following scripture passages.
Matthew 28:19 - We become a child of God and are baptized in his
name.
Acts 22:16 - God washes us clean of sin. (Even though we sin daily
we are forgiven because of what Jesus did for us on the cross).
Titus 3:5 - We believe we are given God's Holy Spirit that helps us
follow Jesus as our Lord.
Mark 16:16 - Through baptism we are gifted with eternal life.
Now, infant or child baptism verses adult baptism. The reason we
baptize children is because we believe that baptism is a gift from God. We
believe it is God who chooses the person to become a child of God. This is
a bit different from churches who believe a person needs to cognitively make
the decision to accept Jesus and decide to be baptized. In the latter the
emphasis is on the individual making the decision - but we believe it is God
who offers the gift (and a gift is not a gift if you have to work for it).
So, because baptism is a gift from God and we believe that God chooses who
to offer the gift to, a child can receive it without understanding all that
baptism entails.
I liken it to baby gifts when a child is born. A baby gift doesn't
require the infant to know or understand who the giver is for the gift to be
legitimate. Over the years the child can be told the story of Aunt Susie
and the special blanket. The child learns of the giver and the wonderful
gift over time.
It is the same with infant baptism. The gift of Baptism with all of its
benefits (salvation, forgiveness, membership in the family of God etc.) is
received even though the child is too young to understand it. Over the years
the parents and the church family teach the child about the heavenly Father
who loved him so much that he would send his only Son Jesus to die for him;
how his sins are forgiven and how God has prepared a place for him when he
dies called heaven. As the child grows in years we as the church try to
help the parents and child grow in faith.

In Acts16:14-15 we read how Lydia came to baptism. It says that "she
and her household" were baptized. In this society a household would include
family members and slaves. This would mean children too. Another example is
in Acts 10. Cornelius and his family (which would have included children)
were baptized by Peter. Peter's comments in verse 47 supports the fact that
it is God who calls people to the waters of baptism.

As Lutherans and I must admit as a student of the Bible, I don't
believe in second baptisms. Again, it goes back to the sense of Baptism of
gift. Who am I to second guess God's choice. If God chose me to become a
child of God and to gift me with his Holy Spirit as an infant who am I to
tell God he was wrong. In a way it feels like I am rejecting the gift as it
was originally intended for me. So, from our perspective - baptism is for
life.
I must add that for those who were not raised in the faith adult
baptism can be a powerful event and should always be encouraged if they have
not been baptized.
It sounds to me like you have had a spiritual awakening and this is
wonderful!! God is busy working in your life and I am he sure has wonderful
plans for you. What I hear you saying is that you have a desire to tell
others of your new and deeper discovery of the one who chose you those many
years ago in Baptism. Perhaps there is a public ceremony where you can
reaffirm the promises made to you in Baptism and affirm your desire to
follow your savior in a new and closer relationship.

It is a little hard to share all this in an email but I thank you for
trusting me with your questions. I will pray for you and your quest.
Blessings to you in this holy season!
Rekna is offline  
Old 12-23-2004, 11:27 AM   #23 (permalink)
Junkie
 
I think her email addresses some of my main concerns but still leads me to nowhere. Like she mentions I don't want to say I'm rejecting my original baptism. This is a very difficult question. I wish the bible were more clear on it.
Rekna is offline  
Old 12-23-2004, 04:40 PM   #24 (permalink)
Psycho
 
1010011010's Avatar
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Would you be denouncing your first baptism if you chose to have a second one? If not, I don't see where this concern about rejecting the first baptism is coming from. You're not rejecting it. If you aren't, I don't see how you'd be concerned that you are.

I really don't see where the idea that getting more than one baptism is a bad thing. People reaffirm their wedding vows, take communion more than once, etc. Other than it being slightly impractical to get baptized on a daily basis, I don't see why there would be any problem with doing it more than once.
__________________
Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions
1010011010 is offline  
 

Tags
baptisms

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:40 AM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360