Confrontational thread: Raising your kids in a religion is wrong - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Techno · 12-10-2004, 11:30 AM

Hola folks.

I don't really frequent this board too much, so if this has come up before, apologies. Also, I couldn't find a way to talk about this without sounding iconoclastic, so hence the little warning tag in the title.

A view I hold is that the raising of a child in any religion is one of the worst crimes a parent can commit*. You are one of the most influential people in your childs life and by espousing any religous view you are going to condition a child, because most children model themselves along the lines of their parents.

Take me, for example, now I have the ability to choose a faith, I found my path to be a pagan one. Yet, due to my parents conditioning, I still carry around all that Christian belief (the One True Path and other such monotheistic thinking) that I have no interest or faith in.

So, what's your view?

* Right up there with circumscisisons** - also known as infant genital mutilation.

** However the fuck you spell it. You know what I mean

Spell checker... is... just out... of... reach.

Techno · 12-10-2004, 11:31 AM

Dammit, forgot the poll.

la petite moi · 12-10-2004, 11:50 AM

I think parents were raised by their parents like that, so they believe it's the right thing to do to raise their child the same way. Plus, most religions have good moral values behind them, and as a child you are taught with universal rules instead of the more general rules. For example, you tell Little Johnny he can never use matches- of course, that isn't true, but you tell him that so he wont hurt himself. Religion is used in the same way.

Now, don't get me wrong here- religious intolerance and brainwashing is pretty wrong. Also, what's so wrong with circumcision? Little babies have it done when they don't even remember it. Yeah, it may be painful at that moment, but does that person remember it or become emotionally scarred by it? No.

PS: I am not religious at all- I am an athiest, but I can understand religion, as long as it's about good moral value and teaching your children tolerance.

the_marq · 12-10-2004, 11:50 AM

By not exposing your child to religion you are just as guilty of imposing your dogma upon them. You have to teach them something; God or no god.

BTW, I'm an atheist but still intend to expose my child to religion, whenever they arrive that is

la petite moi · 12-10-2004, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_marq

By not exposing your child to religion you are just as guilty of imposing your dogma upon them. You have to teach them something; God or no god.

Very true. By telling them they don't have to believe in anything, you are imposing a sort of 'anti-beliefs' view on them. Kinda like my mom- she is strongly athiest, so I have become an athiest myself. Kids learn about things from you.

Pip · 12-10-2004, 12:55 PM

I don't think it's wrong to raise a child in a religion, if the parents have a certain religion it's a part of their lifestyle and culture (most of the times) so it would be kind of weird to exclude the child from that. Everyone needs to have some sort of social/moral "ground" to stand on, and if it is roman-catholic or marxistic doesn't really matter. Parents should encourage children to seek answers on their own, but only when they are old enough to do so.

hiredgun · 12-10-2004, 04:59 PM

The kind of religion-free environment you're talking about isn't really practical. If a parent is religious, how do they explain their own religious practices to their kids? Do they teach them about all religions, and then let them choose, or tell them nothing and wait for outside influences to confuse them?

I can definitely sympathize with the sentiment behind your idea, but sadly, it simply can't be done without compromising religion entirely. Not only is imparting religious knowledge to one's offspring a duty for most religions, but most of this knowledge is most easily absorbed and internalized at a young age.

Let's say my child does decide to adopt my religion. At age 15, or 18, or 21, or whenever he is old enough to decide this, EVEN if he does decide to do so, his lack of training in the faith puts him at a huge disadvantage.

Techno · 12-10-2004, 06:30 PM

Thanks for all the responses folks.

Quote:

Plus, most religions have good moral values behind them, and as a child you are taught with universal rules instead of the more general rules.

Could you be a little more specific in which religions have good moral values? I find a majority preach a mindset of "ours is the only true way" which isn't appropriate in a multicultural society. Frankly, it's not appropriate worldwide, but small steps and all. I also believe that most ingrain an insane notion that happiness isn't really possible here on earth, because the divine isn't here.

Quote:

Not only is imparting religious knowledge to one's offspring a duty for most religions, but most of this knowledge is most easily absorbed and internalized at a young age.

My first, cynical response would be: so it's ok to spread the memes when the child is most susceptible?*
Ok, so these religious articles that state you should teach your kids as early as possible, well weren't they written quite a time ago? You know, before we really got to grips with concepts like "freedom of religion" and "personal choice".

Quote:

By not exposing your child to religion you are just as guilty of imposing your dogma upon them. You have to teach them something; God or no god.

I'm not really arguing for mass producing atheists. I'm saying that endorsing any faith to your child is a crime of choice deprivation. I'd be up for teaching them about all the mythologies of the world, and presenting it with the sentiment: these are stories that you put as much faith in as you like.

Quote:

Let's say my child does decide to adopt my religion. At age 15, or 18, or 21, or whenever he is old enough to decide this, EVEN if he does decide to do so, his lack of training in the faith puts him at a huge disadvantage.

Ok, that raised a grin. What training does someone need to be a member of a religious sect? Are there Catholic Exams? Buddhist Meditation Practicals? Sorry dude, I think that ones a misfire.

* I've been reading Snow Crash again. Fascinating book. Religion as a virus and other such grooviness.

ngdawg · 12-10-2004, 07:04 PM

I abhor organized religion. My husband and his family belong to a church and are active in it. I have him take the kids and I stay home. I feel no one can make an informed decision without having some knowledge or experience to work on. I went to church-Catholic, Lutheran and Episcopal. Mom is Jewish. I know a little about them all and probably more about the bible than some 'religious' people (it makes for interesting, if fictional, reading). When my kids are able to decide and feel what they believe in, our job is done. It's not for us to force an issue on them in this area-only to inform and give them food for thought.

filtherton · 12-10-2004, 07:09 PM

I think the crime is not teaching your child to think for himself. If you can manage to teach a child to think for him/herself, than it doesn't matter if they are taught religion.

Livia Regina · 12-10-2004, 07:10 PM

I don't think that raising children in a religion is one of the worst crimes a parent can commit. There are much worse things parents can do to their children. I think it is perfectly fine to raise children in a religion as long as you don't raise the child to think that theirs is the one true way and everyone else is going to be punished for not believing it. If you are going to raise them with a religion teach them that there are other ways of thinking about the quesiton and it's perfectly fine to look into them.

12-11-2004, 12:10 AM

I don't feel it is wrong per say, but I will say this. I was brought up christian, non-denominational. My parents were at first pushy about it but realized that I was far to stubborn for them. As I became a teenager/young adult they tried talking my friends/boyfriends into going. That disturbed me.
I soon started to really look for more and expand my horizons, taking Philosophy in college, reading spirituality and philosophy books......and I feel I have really grown from that.
I will not raise my son by one religion, but I will not denounce it or hide it from him. I will show him that everyone has a choice and that all religions can be a path to God, but that the truest religion is within ourselves. Following our heart will take us further than following words in a bible, etc. He can choose as he pleases, but I want him to experience it for himself and see the big picture, not just one little puzzle piece.

tecoyah · 12-11-2004, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by :::OshnSoul:::

I don't feel it is wrong per say, but I will say this. I was brought up christian, non-denominational. My parents were at first pushy about it but realized that I was far to stubborn for them. As I became a teenager/young adult they tried talking my friends/boyfriends into going. That disturbed me.
I soon started to really look for more and expand my horizons, taking Philosophy in college, reading spirituality and philosophy books......and I feel I have really grown from that.
I will not raise my son by one religion, but I will not denounce it or hide it from him. I will show him that everyone has a choice and that all religions can be a path to God, but that the truest religion is within ourselves. Following our heart will take us further than following words in a bible, etc. He can choose as he pleases, but I want him to experience it for himself and see the big picture, not just one little puzzle piece.

Pretty much covers my views....and the way we are raising our Kids.
Right now my four year old daughter has a basic understanding of Christianity/Wicca/Eastern Mythology/ and Catholic Dogma. We are just starting the Celtic, and Norse myths. With plans to get into Greek mythology in the next few months (we Homeschool). By the time she is six....we should be well into Homer and have the groundwork layed for basic Psycology lessons. My three year old boy is following a similar plan.....but is much more into Dinosaurs than God....and so will likely be eight before psycology begins.

Lebell · 12-11-2004, 07:33 AM

To raise a child and purposefully not instruct them in whatever belief structure you have developed leaves them rudderless.

Proper instruction will give them a moral compass and at the same time, encourage them to build their own as they get older.

la petite moi · 12-11-2004, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techno

Could you be a little more specific in which religions have good moral values? I find a majority preach a mindset of "ours is the only true way" which isn't appropriate in a multicultural society. Frankly, it's not appropriate worldwide, but small steps and all. I also believe that most ingrain an insane notion that happiness isn't really possible here on earth, because the divine isn't here.

Most religions have been corrupted- the true way is tolerance and acceptance. Sure, in Christianity, they are also trying to convert you (or so I've heard), but they are also supposed to tolerate. As I think you know (since you were saying you're researching paganism, or something), the pagan religion promotes tolerance towards all, which is why in the modern world of corruption, paganism gets the bad rap.

FngKestrel · 12-11-2004, 11:39 AM

My parents sent me to a private Christian school when I was younger. My maternal grandparents are Catholic. My paternal grandparents are Buddhist.

At least with all the different views, I can safely say that I'm a confirmed agnostic.

Techno · 12-12-2004, 05:41 AM

Quote:

To raise a child and purposefully not instruct them in whatever belief structure you have developed leaves them rudderless.

Proper instruction will give them a moral compass and at the same time, encourage them to build their own as they get older.

You don't need religion to teach a child what's right and wrong. Religion, IMNSHO, merely confuses the issue.

"Why is it wrong for these actions to occur?"
"Because God doesn't like it."

Most religions (paganism included, alas) operate on the principle of the Divine Stick. Behave or we'll hit you with our stick, this can stick be eternal damnation (here's looking at you christianity) or threefold retribution (hey, Wicca). A child should be taught to discern what is right and wrong for itself, using a proven formula. I believe one exists within our society and it has nothing to do with religion*.

Quote:

I will not raise my son by one religion, but I will not denounce it or hide it from him. I will show him that everyone has a choice and that all religions can be a path to God, but that the truest religion is within ourselves. Following our heart will take us further than following words in a bible, etc. He can choose as he pleases, but I want him to experience it for himself and see the big picture, not just one little puzzle piece.

Amen, brother. My view exactly.

Just had to respond to this:

Quote:

I don't think that raising children in a religion is one of the worst crimes a parent can commit. There are much worse things parents can do to their children.

Like raise their kids to be patriotic? /joke
Yeah, so it was hyperbole to get the ball rolling. Apologies.

* Choice-theft. All actions recognised as a Bad Thing involve the removal of choice from another sentient being. Think about it, it really does work. No Divine Stick.

Slavakion · 12-12-2004, 07:44 AM

This is a very delicate issue. The best thing to do would be to present both sides of the issue. But then, if you're being completely fair, you should teach every major religion. And I think that would make little Johnny's head asplode.

My dad's Catholic, my mom's Protestant. They couldn't agree on how to raise me, so we never really went to church. I went to a Catholic school for two years in high school. I had never really thought about God/religion much before that. Based on everything I learned, I ironically became an atheist after going to a Catholic school.

godxzilla · 12-13-2004, 05:11 AM

this is a question that I am dealing with at this time also. I have my first on the way, and my wife and I are agnostic...no real answers are out there for us yet. we have not chosen how to handle this situation but I will be reading along with this thread to get some input from everyone

Daoust · 12-13-2004, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

To raise a child and purposefully not instruct them in whatever belief structure you have developed leaves them rudderless.

Proper instruction will give them a moral compass and at the same time, encourage them to build their own as they get older.

I don't think there is anything wrong with raising your child up in the church that you attend, and exposing them to your beliefs... It makes perfect sense to me. If I believe in God, the Bible, or Muhammad, the Koran, and I am a follower of God, it's obviously because I have found that my belief system has brought me understanding, peace, happiness - all things that as a good, loving parent I'd want for their children.

If on the other hand I'm just a fair weather Charlie Church, like most of you are, not really having any real emotional spiritual stake in that faith, then I probably wouldn't really care if my children were exposed to that religion. If it means little to me, then I suppose I wouldn't really get my children into it.

lurkette · 12-13-2004, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

I think the crime is not teaching your child to think for himself. If you can manage to teach a child to think for him/herself, than it doesn't matter if they are taught religion.

Dingdingdingdingding!!!!
Best. Answer. Ever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lebell

To raise a child and purposefully not instruct them in whatever belief structure you have developed leaves them rudderless.

Proper instruction will give them a moral compass and at the same time, encourage them to build their own as they get older.

Belief structure != religion, necessarily. As others have pointed out.

pinkie · 12-16-2004, 09:19 AM

My daughter chooses whether or not she wants to go to church with us. I'd never force my beliefs on her. What she believes in, is up to her.

Podmore · 12-16-2004, 11:27 AM

I don't see how you can avoid teaching your kids what you believe in this area, and I don't know why you'd try. I think the crime is in using religion as a crutch or shortcut (e.g., "You shouldn't steal because God can see you..."). I'm an atheist, but I teach my little girl that many people believe strongly in god, and they could be right. I told her that no one can really know for sure, you have to decide based on what makes sense and feels right to you. Her mother is christian, but not of a particular church.

The important thing to me is that my daughter is raised to be a good person, and that neither depends on, or is contrary to, religion.

highthief · 12-17-2004, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

To raise a child and purposefully not instruct them in whatever belief structure you have developed leaves them rudderless.

Proper instruction will give them a moral compass and at the same time, encourage them to build their own as they get older.

Bang! Right there. We teach our kids our values. If you are a religious person, who truly believes, you will likely expose your children to your beliefs (how the hell else are you going to explain what you do every Sunday morning - or Saturday if you're Jewish). If you are a godless heathen

you'll expose them to that.

Saying it's a "crime" or whatever - that comes across as very childish and immature.

Suave · 12-17-2004, 08:49 AM

I don't really see an issue with it. If they don't like it, they can always leave or convert later. I have a bit of an issue with Judaism just because of circumcision though. If you raise them and can just leave a completely open door in the spiritual aspect, that's great. I don't think most people have the ability to do so though.

pinkie · 12-17-2004, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief

Bang! Right there. We teach our kids our values. If you are a religious person, who truly believes, you will likely expose your children to your beliefs (how the hell else are you going to explain what you do every Sunday morning - or Saturday if you're Jewish). If you are a godless heathen

you'll expose them to that.

Saying it's a "crime" or whatever - that comes across as very childish and immature.

You can teach them values without forcing religion on them, but I agree with the idea that osmosis is better than enforced belief systems. And if you set a good example they follow it, and vise-versa...

Lebell · 12-17-2004, 02:44 PM

It seems that those who are protesting the idea the most are those who have been negatively affected by religion and thus I am lead to believe that is the real reason for the thread.

And I also don't agree that a belief struction != religion, as the two are indistinguishable from my POV.

Be that as it may, I stand by my original post and will add that we "indoctrinate" our children regardless of what we do by simple virtue of being their parents.

If it is to occur regardless, then I vote for doing it in a positive fashion as opposed to letting a child founder without direction because we are afraid of 'damaging' them with our own beliefs.

The other consequence of not teaching them is to let them get their beliefs and ideals from school and society, which I think is already happening too much.

raeanna74 · 12-17-2004, 07:58 PM

I plan to teach my child about my religion. One VERY important part of ANY religion is to examine EVERY belief logically and as to whether the belief lines up with the basis of that religion. Each person must make a choice themselves which religious beliefs they plan to hold.

If my child decides to choose something other than what I believe then if they can provide a basis for their choice then I will be satisfied. If they know WHAT they believe and WHY they believe it is almost more important to me than if they believe the same way I do. In fact I would like to hope that as she discovers for herself things that she will share them with me and give me the chance to evolve my own beliefs. I ONLY don't want her to choose a belief because it's totally opposite mine or because it's completely like mine.

littlebighead · 12-18-2004, 03:42 AM

I think it should be possible to raise children with good ethics and morality without imposing religion upon them. The wife and I are atheists, but we still make sure the kids understand about respecting one another and such. I used to go to church as a kid, but I quickly became disillusioned to it all. The topic of religion hasn't come up much, though my oldest has asked me what happens when we die, and I honestly tell her I'm not sure, but some people believe this, some believe that, and so on.

raeanna74 · 12-18-2004, 06:16 AM

Whether you are athiest or Catholic, or Buddist you have a religious belief. If you are Athiest you simply don't hold to any religious faith. No matter what you believe you have to tell your child SOMETHING. You will need to tell them what you believe. I prefer to tell them that COMBINED with what other's believe. They will eventually explore all the possibilities themselves and come to their own conclusion. Stuffing it down their throats and saying that they can't live in my house if they won't go to my church, marry someone of like faith, or such nonesense is where the crux of the matter lies. Are you going to rule your child by moral ethics or by your religious beliefs? I choose the former and will explain the latter.

MSD · 12-19-2004, 09:27 PM

When I eventually have kids, I'll teach them about religion. When they're old enough to decide for themselves, I'll let them make the choice. My mom is really religious, and she raised with a very strict Catholic brainwashing, and although I appreciate the rest of her parenting, I very much resent the religious aspect.

Ironically, I would probably still believe in God if I wasn't hit so hard over the head with a bible as a kid (metaphorically.)

martinguerre · 12-19-2004, 09:41 PM

teaching them a language is an act that will shape how they think.

teaching them a religion is an act that will shape how they think.

Well...i know that i'll be teaching them to speak. they pick it up from what i do. And i suppose i'll teaching them about my faith. I sure won't hide it from them.

honestly, i think that the question itself contains an overreaction. It is possible to leave a faith on good terms. Giving a child a world view that is about guilt, fear, and shame...that's pretty cold. But if the message is about the mercy...i trust my children (to be) to work out their relationship with God. I do not pretend that i could somehow make them do anything in this regard. I've left a faith, come back...and making my home a new. I don't know what journeys my kids will take...but if they have any of my willfullness if them...they will certainly not be carbon copies, or unthinking in any way.

kids are a lot more capable than i think we give them credit for...give them agency in learning and becoming, and it won't be a matter of "imposing" something.

shaggs_manoa · 12-20-2004, 02:34 AM

All dogma/karma aside. The real problems in the world don't come from the moderate Jews/christian/Muslim/Aethist/Pagans. It is the extremeist and fundimentalists.

The fundamentalist Christian who bleives all others are evil and should burn in hell is wrong. Teaching their children that is wrong.
The Aethist with no faith in anything and a general contempt and hatred of all things relgious is just as big of a bigot. Teaching their children that is wrong.
Islam...well maybe Osama should follow his own teachings and become a suicide bomber. Teaching their children that is wrong.

As long as you teach a moderate level of what ever it is, and acceptance of others I see no evil in it.

sexymama · 12-20-2004, 08:47 AM

Not only is it impossible not to teach your child your values and beliefs by how you live, it is imperative you do teach them. Families that "worship" together have stronger relationships. The parents have a stronger marriage and the children are less likely to drug, drink or get invovled in sex at an early age. If you are worried that:

Quote:

Originally Posted by la petite moi

Most religions have been corrupted- the true way is tolerance and acceptance. Sure, in Christianity, they are also trying to convert you (or so I've heard), but they are also supposed to tolerate. As I think you know (since you were saying you're researching paganism, or something), the pagan religion promotes tolerance towards all, which is why in the modern world of corruption, paganism gets the bad rap.

]

If you don't want to attend a traditional Christian church, try the Unitarian Universalist church. It teaches acceptance of all beliefs as long as one respects all human beings. I have known Christian, pagan, Jewish, humanist, agnostic and Buddhist UUs.

Xenomorph · 12-21-2004, 01:37 AM

I don't think more than 2 weeks have gone since I've been capable of memory that I haven't been to church. It was non-negotiable to my parents and it was non-negotiable to me. It'll be the same way with my kids, and I don't apologize for it.

Multiculturalism needn't be relativism, despite the heavy relativistic connotation than the word has acquired. I can have complete respect the right for people to worship or not worship as they choose while still holding the belief that, while their faiths do contain facets of goodness and truth, mine is the only one that has them all. If I believed everyone was right, I certainly wouldn't choose a belief system that required any effort on my part.

In holding true with my own belief system, it would be a grave sin of omission for me to fail to properly instruct my children in the faith. They'll obviously be free to make their own decisions once they reach adulthood, but I'm going to teach them what I believe to be truth as truth.

theburner · 12-21-2004, 07:19 AM

If you want a truly enlightened child, one who is qualified to make their own decision with regards to what religion means to them, then should you expose them to it as well as show them where religion can go wrong?

If you don't expose a child to BOTH sides of the story, you are stunting their intellectual growth. REMEMBER: There is a yin/yang for everything.

Xenomorph · 12-21-2004, 11:43 AM

Of course. I'm not going to tell them that religion has never been abused or led to hatred and oppression. I would hope that their history and theology classes taught them the same things about holy wars and inquisitions that I've learned myself. I am, however, going to show them a way to practice it without these things.

ShaniFaye · 12-21-2004, 11:54 AM

As a believer, I am not doing my duty if my daughter isnt exposed to religion...and I truly hope when she grows up that she has some faith/belief in something. If she doesnt, that is her choice and I will still love her.

Since she is home schooled....and I am not limited in her "religious" teachings...like it would be if she were in a government (public) school...part of her studies includes studies of ALL religions around the world....if possible in the area where we live, she will attend a few services from the different faiths to see what they are like.

she also knows I have a lot of friends that are agnostic/atheist and that I dont have any problem with them and what they believe.

MY take on religion is that what a person believes or doesnt believe is between them and their god/non god/ higher power/themselves whatever, its not for me to judge them for it

Captain Nemo · 12-21-2004, 12:03 PM

I'd say that they should be taught something as it helped me shape my views by being part of the Episcopal church growing up.

But then again I might just be saying that seeing as I lost my virginity at church camp when I was 14. Ah those summer nights of sleeping out, getting laid, getting drunk or stoned. Um, church....

raeanna74 · 12-21-2004, 12:05 PM

Growing up my parents were quite strict with their religous beliefs. They asked that I follow them closely as well. BUT there was one thing that they did teach that has made all the difference. They've taught me to learn what OTHER people believe and WHY. I had some close friends who worships their god in a totally different way that I worshiped. I learned to respect their choices. My parents taught me that the best way to "convert" was to LIVE my faith and not push it. Unfortunately my mother has somewhat gone off the deep end in some ways and is willing to really push her faith now. It's a turn off somewhat. I still remember what they used to stress and that was that I should be a good example to others and respect them. I think that's the best way - teach by example, live with respect.

12-10-2004, 11:30 AM	#1 (permalink)
Techno Upright Location: In this weak human flesh	Confrontational thread: Raising your kids in a religion is wrong Hola folks. I don't really frequent this board too much, so if this has come up before, apologies. Also, I couldn't find a way to talk about this without sounding iconoclastic, so hence the little warning tag in the title. A view I hold is that the raising of a child in any religion is one of the worst crimes a parent can commit. You are one of the most influential people in your childs life and by espousing any religous view you are going to condition a child, because most children model themselves along the lines of their parents. Take me, for example, now I have the ability to choose a faith, I found my path to be a pagan one. Yet, due to my parents conditioning, I still carry around all that Christian belief (the One True Path and other such monotheistic thinking) that I have no interest or faith in. So, what's your view? Right up there with circumscisisons - also known as infant genital mutilation. However the fuck you spell it. You know what I mean Spell checker... is... just out... of... reach. __________________ "Don't take any guff from these swine"

12-10-2004, 11:31 AM	#2 (permalink)
Techno Upright Location: In this weak human flesh	Dammit, forgot the poll. __________________ "Don't take any guff from these swine"

12-10-2004, 11:50 AM	#4 (permalink)
the_marq All hail the Mountain King Location: Black Mesa	By not exposing your child to religion you are just as guilty of imposing your dogma upon them. You have to teach them something; God or no god. BTW, I'm an atheist but still intend to expose my child to religion, whenever they arrive that is __________________ The Truth: Johnny Cash could have kicked Bruce Lee's ass if he wanted to. #3 in a series

12-10-2004, 07:10 PM	#11 (permalink)
Livia Regina Crazy	I don't think that raising children in a religion is one of the worst crimes a parent can commit. There are much worse things parents can do to their children. I think it is perfectly fine to raise children in a religion as long as you don't raise the child to think that theirs is the one true way and everyone else is going to be punished for not believing it. If you are going to raise them with a religion teach them that there are other ways of thinking about the quesiton and it's perfectly fine to look into them. __________________ Rule 37: There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload.'

12-11-2004, 07:33 AM	#14 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	To raise a child and purposefully not instruct them in whatever belief structure you have developed leaves them rudderless. Proper instruction will give them a moral compass and at the same time, encourage them to build their own as they get older. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

12-10-2004, 11:50 AM	#3 (permalink)
la petite moi Filling the Void. Location: California	I think parents were raised by their parents like that, so they believe it's the right thing to do to raise their child the same way. Plus, most religions have good moral values behind them, and as a child you are taught with universal rules instead of the more general rules. For example, you tell Little Johnny he can never use matches- of course, that isn't true, but you tell him that so he wont hurt himself. Religion is used in the same way. Now, don't get me wrong here- religious intolerance and brainwashing is pretty wrong. Also, what's so wrong with circumcision? Little babies have it done when they don't even remember it. Yeah, it may be painful at that moment, but does that person remember it or become emotionally scarred by it? No. PS: I am not religious at all- I am an athiest, but I can understand religion, as long as it's about good moral value and teaching your children tolerance.

12-10-2004, 12:55 PM	#6 (permalink)
Pip Likes Hats Location: Stockholm, Sweden	I don't think it's wrong to raise a child in a religion, if the parents have a certain religion it's a part of their lifestyle and culture (most of the times) so it would be kind of weird to exclude the child from that. Everyone needs to have some sort of social/moral "ground" to stand on, and if it is roman-catholic or marxistic doesn't really matter. Parents should encourage children to seek answers on their own, but only when they are old enough to do so.

12-10-2004, 04:59 PM	#7 (permalink)
hiredgun Addict	The kind of religion-free environment you're talking about isn't really practical. If a parent is religious, how do they explain their own religious practices to their kids? Do they teach them about all religions, and then let them choose, or tell them nothing and wait for outside influences to confuse them? I can definitely sympathize with the sentiment behind your idea, but sadly, it simply can't be done without compromising religion entirely. Not only is imparting religious knowledge to one's offspring a duty for most religions, but most of this knowledge is most easily absorbed and internalized at a young age. Let's say my child does decide to adopt my religion. At age 15, or 18, or 21, or whenever he is old enough to decide this, EVEN if he does decide to do so, his lack of training in the faith puts him at a huge disadvantage.

12-10-2004, 07:04 PM	#9 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	I abhor organized religion. My husband and his family belong to a church and are active in it. I have him take the kids and I stay home. I feel no one can make an informed decision without having some knowledge or experience to work on. I went to church-Catholic, Lutheran and Episcopal. Mom is Jewish. I know a little about them all and probably more about the bible than some 'religious' people (it makes for interesting, if fictional, reading). When my kids are able to decide and feel what they believe in, our job is done. It's not for us to force an issue on them in this area-only to inform and give them food for thought.

12-10-2004, 07:09 PM	#10 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I think the crime is not teaching your child to think for himself. If you can manage to teach a child to think for him/herself, than it doesn't matter if they are taught religion.

12-11-2004, 12:10 AM	#12 (permalink)
:::OshnSoul::: Guest	I don't feel it is wrong per say, but I will say this. I was brought up christian, non-denominational. My parents were at first pushy about it but realized that I was far to stubborn for them. As I became a teenager/young adult they tried talking my friends/boyfriends into going. That disturbed me. I soon started to really look for more and expand my horizons, taking Philosophy in college, reading spirituality and philosophy books......and I feel I have really grown from that. I will not raise my son by one religion, but I will not denounce it or hide it from him. I will show him that everyone has a choice and that all religions can be a path to God, but that the truest religion is within ourselves. Following our heart will take us further than following words in a bible, etc. He can choose as he pleases, but I want him to experience it for himself and see the big picture, not just one little puzzle piece.

12-11-2004, 11:39 AM	#16 (permalink)
FngKestrel Junkie	My parents sent me to a private Christian school when I was younger. My maternal grandparents are Catholic. My paternal grandparents are Buddhist. At least with all the different views, I can safely say that I'm a confirmed agnostic.

12-12-2004, 07:44 AM	#18 (permalink)
Slavakion Mjollnir Incarnate Location: Lost in thought	This is a very delicate issue. The best thing to do would be to present both sides of the issue. But then, if you're being completely fair, you should teach every major religion. And I think that would make little Johnny's head asplode. My dad's Catholic, my mom's Protestant. They couldn't agree on how to raise me, so we never really went to church. I went to a Catholic school for two years in high school. I had never really thought about God/religion much before that. Based on everything I learned, I ironically became an atheist after going to a Catholic school.

12-13-2004, 05:11 AM	#19 (permalink)
godxzilla Crazy Location: Columbus, OH	this is a question that I am dealing with at this time also. I have my first on the way, and my wife and I are agnostic...no real answers are out there for us yet. we have not chosen how to handle this situation but I will be reading along with this thread to get some input from everyone __________________ Mike

12-16-2004, 09:19 AM	#22 (permalink)
pinkie Helplessly hoping Location: Above the stars	My daughter chooses whether or not she wants to go to church with us. I'd never force my beliefs on her. What she believes in, is up to her.

12-16-2004, 11:27 AM	#23 (permalink)
Podmore Crazy Location: SoCal	I don't see how you can avoid teaching your kids what you believe in this area, and I don't know why you'd try. I think the crime is in using religion as a crutch or shortcut (e.g., "You shouldn't steal because God can see you..."). I'm an atheist, but I teach my little girl that many people believe strongly in god, and they could be right. I told her that no one can really know for sure, you have to decide based on what makes sense and feels right to you. Her mother is christian, but not of a particular church. The important thing to me is that my daughter is raised to be a good person, and that neither depends on, or is contrary to, religion.

12-17-2004, 08:49 AM	#25 (permalink)
Suave Twitterpated Location: My own little world (also Canada)	I don't really see an issue with it. If they don't like it, they can always leave or convert later. I have a bit of an issue with Judaism just because of circumcision though. If you raise them and can just leave a completely open door in the spiritual aspect, that's great. I don't think most people have the ability to do so though. __________________ "Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

12-17-2004, 02:44 PM	#27 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	It seems that those who are protesting the idea the most are those who have been negatively affected by religion and thus I am lead to believe that is the real reason for the thread. And I also don't agree that a belief struction != religion, as the two are indistinguishable from my POV. Be that as it may, I stand by my original post and will add that we "indoctrinate" our children regardless of what we do by simple virtue of being their parents. If it is to occur regardless, then I vote for doing it in a positive fashion as opposed to letting a child founder without direction because we are afraid of 'damaging' them with our own beliefs. The other consequence of not teaching them is to let them get their beliefs and ideals from school and society, which I think is already happening too much. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

12-17-2004, 07:58 PM	#28 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	I plan to teach my child about my religion. One VERY important part of ANY religion is to examine EVERY belief logically and as to whether the belief lines up with the basis of that religion. Each person must make a choice themselves which religious beliefs they plan to hold. If my child decides to choose something other than what I believe then if they can provide a basis for their choice then I will be satisfied. If they know WHAT they believe and WHY they believe it is almost more important to me than if they believe the same way I do. In fact I would like to hope that as she discovers for herself things that she will share them with me and give me the chance to evolve my own beliefs. I ONLY don't want her to choose a belief because it's totally opposite mine or because it's completely like mine. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

12-18-2004, 03:42 AM	#29 (permalink)
littlebighead Upright Location: Berkeley, CA	I think it should be possible to raise children with good ethics and morality without imposing religion upon them. The wife and I are atheists, but we still make sure the kids understand about respecting one another and such. I used to go to church as a kid, but I quickly became disillusioned to it all. The topic of religion hasn't come up much, though my oldest has asked me what happens when we die, and I honestly tell her I'm not sure, but some people believe this, some believe that, and so on.

12-18-2004, 06:16 AM	#30 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	Whether you are athiest or Catholic, or Buddist you have a religious belief. If you are Athiest you simply don't hold to any religious faith. No matter what you believe you have to tell your child SOMETHING. You will need to tell them what you believe. I prefer to tell them that COMBINED with what other's believe. They will eventually explore all the possibilities themselves and come to their own conclusion. Stuffing it down their throats and saying that they can't live in my house if they won't go to my church, marry someone of like faith, or such nonesense is where the crux of the matter lies. Are you going to rule your child by moral ethics or by your religious beliefs? I choose the former and will explain the latter. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

12-19-2004, 09:27 PM	#31 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	When I eventually have kids, I'll teach them about religion. When they're old enough to decide for themselves, I'll let them make the choice. My mom is really religious, and she raised with a very strict Catholic brainwashing, and although I appreciate the rest of her parenting, I very much resent the religious aspect. Ironically, I would probably still believe in God if I wasn't hit so hard over the head with a bible as a kid (metaphorically.)

12-19-2004, 09:41 PM	#32 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	teaching them a language is an act that will shape how they think. teaching them a religion is an act that will shape how they think. Well...i know that i'll be teaching them to speak. they pick it up from what i do. And i suppose i'll teaching them about my faith. I sure won't hide it from them. honestly, i think that the question itself contains an overreaction. It is possible to leave a faith on good terms. Giving a child a world view that is about guilt, fear, and shame...that's pretty cold. But if the message is about the mercy...i trust my children (to be) to work out their relationship with God. I do not pretend that i could somehow make them do anything in this regard. I've left a faith, come back...and making my home a new. I don't know what journeys my kids will take...but if they have any of my willfullness if them...they will certainly not be carbon copies, or unthinking in any way. kids are a lot more capable than i think we give them credit for...give them agency in learning and becoming, and it won't be a matter of "imposing" something. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

12-20-2004, 02:34 AM	#33 (permalink)
shaggs_manoa Upright Location: Well I go to skool in Manoa (in Hawaii) but I haven't seen my house in weeks.	All dogma/karma aside. The real problems in the world don't come from the moderate Jews/christian/Muslim/Aethist/Pagans. It is the extremeist and fundimentalists. The fundamentalist Christian who bleives all others are evil and should burn in hell is wrong. Teaching their children that is wrong. The Aethist with no faith in anything and a general contempt and hatred of all things relgious is just as big of a bigot. Teaching their children that is wrong. Islam...well maybe Osama should follow his own teachings and become a suicide bomber. Teaching their children that is wrong. As long as you teach a moderate level of what ever it is, and acceptance of others I see no evil in it. __________________ Rookie for life becuase I only post in tilted nonsense!

12-21-2004, 01:37 AM	#35 (permalink)
Xenomorph Crazy Location: St. Louis, MO	I don't think more than 2 weeks have gone since I've been capable of memory that I haven't been to church. It was non-negotiable to my parents and it was non-negotiable to me. It'll be the same way with my kids, and I don't apologize for it. Multiculturalism needn't be relativism, despite the heavy relativistic connotation than the word has acquired. I can have complete respect the right for people to worship or not worship as they choose while still holding the belief that, while their faiths do contain facets of goodness and truth, mine is the only one that has them all. If I believed everyone was right, I certainly wouldn't choose a belief system that required any effort on my part. In holding true with my own belief system, it would be a grave sin of omission for me to fail to properly instruct my children in the faith. They'll obviously be free to make their own decisions once they reach adulthood, but I'm going to teach them what I believe to be truth as truth. __________________ The facehugger is short-lived outside the egg which normally protects it. Armed with a long grasping tail, a spray of highly-concentrated acid and the single-minded desire to impregnate a single selected prey using its extending probe, it will fearlessly pursue and attack a single selected target until it has succeeded in attachment or it or its target is dead

12-21-2004, 07:19 AM	#36 (permalink)
theburner Canadian Beer Ambassador Location: Cumming, GA	If you want a truly enlightened child, one who is qualified to make their own decision with regards to what religion means to them, then should you expose them to it as well as show them where religion can go wrong? If you don't expose a child to BOTH sides of the story, you are stunting their intellectual growth. REMEMBER: There is a yin/yang for everything. __________________ Take Off Eh!

12-21-2004, 11:43 AM	#37 (permalink)
Xenomorph Crazy Location: St. Louis, MO	Of course. I'm not going to tell them that religion has never been abused or led to hatred and oppression. I would hope that their history and theology classes taught them the same things about holy wars and inquisitions that I've learned myself. I am, however, going to show them a way to practice it without these things. __________________ The facehugger is short-lived outside the egg which normally protects it. Armed with a long grasping tail, a spray of highly-concentrated acid and the single-minded desire to impregnate a single selected prey using its extending probe, it will fearlessly pursue and attack a single selected target until it has succeeded in attachment or it or its target is dead

12-21-2004, 11:54 AM	#38 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	As a believer, I am not doing my duty if my daughter isnt exposed to religion...and I truly hope when she grows up that she has some faith/belief in something. If she doesnt, that is her choice and I will still love her. Since she is home schooled....and I am not limited in her "religious" teachings...like it would be if she were in a government (public) school...part of her studies includes studies of ALL religions around the world....if possible in the area where we live, she will attend a few services from the different faiths to see what they are like. she also knows I have a lot of friends that are agnostic/atheist and that I dont have any problem with them and what they believe. MY take on religion is that what a person believes or doesnt believe is between them and their god/non god/ higher power/themselves whatever, its not for me to judge them for it __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

12-21-2004, 12:03 PM	#39 (permalink)
Captain Nemo Insane Location: In a forest of red tape (but hey, I have scissors)	I'd say that they should be taught something as it helped me shape my views by being part of the Episcopal church growing up. But then again I might just be saying that seeing as I lost my virginity at church camp when I was 14. Ah those summer nights of sleeping out, getting laid, getting drunk or stoned. Um, church....

12-21-2004, 12:05 PM	#40 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	Growing up my parents were quite strict with their religous beliefs. They asked that I follow them closely as well. BUT there was one thing that they did teach that has made all the difference. They've taught me to learn what OTHER people believe and WHY. I had some close friends who worships their god in a totally different way that I worshiped. I learned to respect their choices. My parents taught me that the best way to "convert" was to LIVE my faith and not push it. Unfortunately my mother has somewhat gone off the deep end in some ways and is willing to really push her faith now. It's a turn off somewhat. I still remember what they used to stress and that was that I should be a good example to others and respect them. I think that's the best way - teach by example, live with respect. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.