lom

Hello all,first post in this forum so please be kind

I was sitting in Chapel at school today and I head the chaplain say 'St Luke would witness the greatest event in history.' And it got me thinking, was Jesus Christ really the greatest event that has ever happened? He has affected millions of people in millions of ways but are they all positive? Is his life really the best thing to have happened to humans. Being an atheist myself I feel biased in thinking it wasn't but I'm struggling to find something truely better.
I do not dispute it was a profound moment, him being the son of God or not. His influence has changed the western world, or perhaps created it as we know it today? But is this necessarily a good thing? Wars have been fought in his name and thousands have died upholding the morals he preached. Perhaps in modern times this is acceptable as fairness and kindness are things all people should benefit from. But I have to question if the morals inflicted on the Muslims during the crusades or to some extent today in Iraq really warrant it. But I digress.
Was the birth of Jesus Christ the greatest event ever witnessed? What do you think?

L

the_marq

I have a few questions:

*Whether or not Jesus was the son of God or not is highly debateable, especialy on the TFP. He was a pretty good guy, and probably good public speaker, but there are a lot of doubters about his lineage to God. (Hey isn't today the first day of Chaunaka?)
*Was St. Luke really at the birth of Jesus? I thought he didn't meet Jesus till about 20 years later.
*If you are an athiest why are you at a Christian school?

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tropple

I read that three times before it made sense. I kept reading affected as afflicted.

I'm of the mind that religion is some god's way of depopulating the earth so he can sell it to aliens for a new thruway.

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Daoust

It might not be the greatest event in history to you, but it may well be to me. I suppose it's one of those subjective things.
Personally, I think it is. But I think that for a lot of reasons. But since people generally use this site to Jesus / Christianity / absolute truth bash I won't feed any fuel to their fire. Most people just want to hear the old utilitarian 'whats-good-for-you-is-good-for-you' answer anyway, so no one has their toes stepped on.

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Lebell

Seems to me that this is the core to your question.

If He was indeed the actual Son of God the Creater, the Alpha and Omega, the Tao, the Great Spirit, the Great I AM, etc and was indeed equivalent to the same, how could His birth, His coming to become one of us, to live and die as one of us, NOT be the greatest event in history? (That is, unless you wanted to argue that His Death and Resurrection was the greatest event.)

If He wasn't then you could probably find something else that you think is greater.

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tecoyah

Greatest event in the History of the world.

The mutation that allowed for self replication in rudimentary life.

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Master_Shake

Ahh, but self-replication in rudimentary life isn't really part of History (with the capital H, being recorded history of humanity).

If we must choose events, and not processes (such as the development of language, etc...) then the question becomes, what makes an event great?

Having the largest impact on the largest number of people?
That seems reasonable. But does the event have to be caused by humanity? What about natural phenomana that occur while we're here to record it?

Apollo 11 moon landing?
WWII?
Publication of the Gutenberg Bible? (not as religious importance, but as technological/communicative importance)

The secret talks between Eisenhower and aliens to contaminate the public's drinking water supply with the mind control substance flouride to create a docile population suitable for slave labour?

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Daoust

No offense, but I have a much easier time believing in the reality of a Creator/Sustainer/Triune/Omnipotent/Omniscient/Invisible/Heaven Dwelling God-man dying for the sins of mankind on a cross before I could ever swallow that bit of evolutionary guesswork.

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Grasshopper Green

No, I don't think it is. I'm not Christian, so it's not as important to me as it would be others. I'd want to say the first written language would be the greatest event in history, but for for an event with actual concrete evidence, I'd say dropping the atom bomb.

Bill O'Rights

It depends. If you are a follower of the Christian faith, and believe that Jesus was truly the Son of God...then yes, absolutely this was the greatest event in history. If, however, you fall into my camp...the non-believers...then it was simply the most significant event in history.

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CSflim

As a non-believer I have to disagree with you that the birth of Jesus was the most significant event in history.

Quite significant yes, but if it hadn't been Jesus, it would have been someone else.

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CSflim

That's a good answer, but why specifically written langauge?

Perhaps the emergence of language in general? That would certainly be an incredibly significant event, but perhaps it doesn't really count as an "event" - not nearly discrete enough.

I think all of the truly great occurances in history suffer from this: they are not individual discrete events, hence it is hard to answer the question that the thread starter posed.

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irateplatypus

i would argue that the birth of jesus is nothing without the resurrection.

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ScottKuma

I think the creation of the printing press would be one of the greatest events in history.

This single event made book-making, printing, and the likes much more economical, both in time & monetary terms, thus making knowledge more easily accessible to the masses.

I am speculating somewhat, but I think that history will record the dawn of the Internet as a particularly great event for much the same reason.

For DISCRETE events, I might pose the following (and note that I'm using the judgement-neutral definition of GREAT...as in large, most significant, etc.):

* Assassination of the Arch-Duke Ferdinand
* Dropping of the Atomic Bomb on Hiroshima

and, because I'm unabashedly American:

* Creation & Signing of the United States Constitution


Discuss!

lom

As these were directed at me I will answer although others have made very interesting points too.

Whether he is the son of God or not is important but perhaps not as much as I first thought. If he is the son of God his importance is obvious and the event of his birth is equally as important. If not does it matter? The fact he has had an effect on so much we believe in today, our morals in society, the way we think of other people, of life in general.

I realise St Luke did not witness Jesus' birth and I think I have phrased it badly from the way chaplain did earlier today. It should read St Luke witnessing Jesus life, not necessarily his birth. This does change the basis of my question and brings in the new idea; which part of jesus life.

I live in England and here we are supposed to have a 'token religious' event everyday! At my school we have one a week where everyone must attend 'chapel' in the Church, and two assemblys with a prayer a hymn and notices about the school day. So yes it is quite strange but we have Muslims, Sikhs, and Hindus here too who must also attend the services. Even more strange, our Chaplain is Roman Catholic and the school is actually Church Of England.

Coppertop

Anything that has already happened and considered great will be trumped when mankind makes contact with an extraterrestrial intelligence.

ARTelevision

Obviously the greatest event in history is today itself.

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Ustwo

From my perspective the most important event was my birth.

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lom

How very big of you.

Publius

Welcome to forum Lom I’ll try to be as kind as I can. First of all, I had to suppress a laugh when I read this sniped quote from your post. It seems to me that if this is what your pastor really said (or implied) then he needs to go back and reread his traditional biblical history. St. Luke was a convert well after Jesus’ death and resurrection. Luke was a companion of Paul and wrote his gospel based on accounts told to him by followers of Jesus, not from firsthand knowledge. Now while I know that the bases of your question is not effected by this information, its little biblical inaccuracies like this that really drive me nuts. (For a full account of the traditional biblical history of Luke see here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09420a.htm)

Now as for your underlying question, I have two possible answers. One, if I am guessing as to what the most significant historical event is that effects my life today, I would have to say that it was my own birth. Without that, well ... And this event will only be closely followed by my own death (hopefully many years to come).

Taking a larger world view of event, however, I would say that the most significant event in human history (anything pre-human is right out so far as I’m concerned) was probably Abraham. From Abraham we have end up with the 3 of the world’s major religions (Judaism, Christianity, Muslim). Again, taking a global view, I would have to argue that Abraham’s legacy has had a much large effect on world politics for a much longer period of time (about double) then that of Jesus. (Now I would also concede that a Christian would likely view Jesus as the most important event, but for which there would be no hope of salvation, but just to play devil’s advocate (no pun intended) I would have to argue that Adam and Eve’s first sin was actually a larger event but for which there would have been no need for Jesus.)

lom

On the chaplain, it is possible I misheard, I hardly listen to these little addresses! But as you have said it does not dramatically affect the basis of my question.

Interesting to look at a purely religious perspective though. I posted this on another forum and almost all the replies simply said Jesus didn't exist and therefore the invention of fire was the greatest event, or a variation on that.

the_marq

You're joking right?

I know I am ignoring your actual question, but I am obsessed with this fact: Universities and Colleges in the UK are FORCING students into religious ceremonies in direct contravention with their beliefs.

Do they all do this or is yours a special case?

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lom

I'm not exactly sure. But this year we have been given a new timetable and everyone complained about still having chaple (now in our lunch break!) and we were told that we have to do it and we should have some sort of religious event every day.

I do not think they are forced to attend and I am almost positive they do not have to attend chaple. But thinking about it, ALL full boarders have to go to chaple on sunday for the service then and we ALL have to go to boarders singing practice on friday morning in preparation for the service on sunday whether we are going or not.
I do not think they would be made to go if they said they didn't want to.

HOWEVER, assemblys are a different story. I think they would be forced to attend because it is more of a school event, everyone comes together just to be a school, rather than to practice christianity. They do not have to sing the hymns or pray.

Also on a slightly more positive note for my school during Ramadan Muslims are excused from lessons to eat after the sun sets. They also have special Halal food at lunch, breakfast and dinner everyday. We also learn about Muslim in our GCSE (14-15 yr old) exams. Both from the point of ethical and philosophical issues and also from the point of general belief.
Other religions are in an extreme minority maybe 2 or 3 boys out of 500 so are not really accounted for in this way. I'm sure allowances would be made if they made their opinions heard though.

In respect of generalising for the UK I think my school is a special case. It is a public (you pay to attend) traditional boarding school. There is ALOT of tradition in the school (we have a Christian church in our grounds) and I think it is right to uphold this especially as some allowances have been made.
Saying this my old school up to the age of 13 was much less liberal. It was EXTREMELY old fashioned but has recently changed headmaster and I understand it has changed dramatically.

If you want to ask someone who knows alot more than I do please feel free to visit our website www.bedfordschool.org.uk emailing the Head or another member of staff would surely be welcomed.

the_marq

Oh... well that's different. I didn't realise you were in a "Private High School" (as they are called in Canada). I had assumed you were in University or College.

When you are under the age of 18 and your parents are paying your way I can understand you being forced into various religous activites. It would be different if we were talking about adults.

Move along... sorry to digress from the original thread.

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MojoRisin

WeLcOme tO thE LaND of MaKE bELIEve!!!

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Bill O'Rights

The reason that I say that the birth of Jesus was the most significant event in history, is that no other, one single man, has influenced so many, for so long, before...or since.

And I agree, if it hadn't been Jesus, then it most certainly would have been someone else. Fact is, though, it was Jesus. Therefore, by default, it was his birth that I consider to be the most significant event in history. Not the greatest...but certainly the most significant.

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Paul67

Actually, I think it was the greatest hoax ever perpetrated.

tecoyah

What about the Birth of the Buddah.....Or Mohammad?

I would think the sheer numbers of people influenced by the latter rivals the followers of Jesus.....after all this is the history of " The World"....Right?

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roachboy

"every rebel just a rebel in a story."
--linton kwesi johnson

event?
what is an event?
where does an event stop and start?

history?
which one? is there only a single history? according to who?

if there is a single history, you would think that an Important Event (whatever that means) would reveal its significance by shifting the understanding of time.
if that is the criterion, then BCE/AD....
but of course, christians foisted this on the rest of us.
any claim that there is a single history is therfore already balled up with that prticular religious ideology and its pretensions to be other than a particular religious ideology.
it does not require a rocket scientist to see that for christians, the jesus story would be a significant sequence of events.

by the way, what do you imagine year 0 meant to the people who lived through it?
do you think they addressed letters to each other "24 april, 0" for example?
how did they know that it was year 0?
what would it have been like to live through the Zero?

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Furry

First moon landing.

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Willravel

Greatest: Did anyone see Shatner preform "Rocketman" in the 1978 Science Fiction Film Awards?
Second greatest: What about the release of Jawanaman?

In all seriousness, I think that the greatest event in history would be the creation of the universe, whether done by God or big banged.

flstf

Agreed. Unless we are once again struck by a extinction class comet or asteroid now circling around the asteroid belt. One of them probably has our name on it again. Of course we could advance enough to get off this planet and/or defend ourselves by then.

Coppertop

Exactly. Singling out Jesus is a Western bias I would think. The vast majority of people on this planet are not, nor have ever been, Christian.

CSflim

*applause*

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FngKestrel

Which will obviously be Vulcans.

Lebell

Actually, roughly 33% of the world practices some form of Christianity, followed by Islam at 20%.

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Coppertop

Hence the vast majority of the world currently not being Christian. 67% by your count. Please don't forget to add every single person who lived before Christ to these numbers as well. Christianity simply doesn't have the same hold on the world as it does on Western countries.

Strange Famous

If Jesus was who he claimed he was, or who the bible claims he was, then his birth was not the greatest moment, but his life may have been, and what he taught people was about greatness

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Strange Famous

well, it IS different, surely?

Gautama Buddha never made any claim to be divine or connected to the divine, only that he was able to gain true enlightenment and self knowledge, from which came universal knowledge - as far as I understand.

Mohammad, even to his followers, claimed to be a great Prophet of Allah, and to be in communication with God's angels.

The claims made about Jesus, that he was a part of God, a manifestation of God in human form, are somewhat different to what could be claimed about Buddha or Mohammad.

In fact, in my opinion, Isa holds a more important place is Islamic religion than Mohammad... although Mohammad was the greatest of the prophets, it was to Isa given to lead the last war and destroy the false prophet, and it was Isa who was elivated to heaven intact because he could not die.

Whether you believe in the claims of Christianity, or see Jesus as a normal man, or even a myth, I think it is hard to argue that the impact he had on the world was not greater, and more universal, than Mohammad, Buddha, David, Guru Nanek, or even Moses.

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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Lebell

Yes, I mastered subtraction a while ago.

But this irrelevent to the discussion.

IF God exists, and IF God chose to become a human being REGARDLESS of His name, can you argue that this would not be the greatest event in human history?

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