We're all neck-deep in Christianity... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

irateplatypus · 11-06-2004, 05:19 PM

This is written with the dual purpose of adding a word of caution to the mix as well as to start a discussion.

Many of the more prominent threads in Tilted Philosophy and Politics (especially recently) touch on the nature of Christians and Christianity in the world. As a devout Christian who comes from fundamentalist roots (my family might say I've transplanted myself a bit), I've been very frustrated with the tone of discussion. Which brings me to my intended point...

Christianity is everywhere. You can't walk in a single direction for long in our country without bumping into a church of some sort. You can't flip through TV channels or turn your radio dial without hearing a sermon. Everyone seems to have some notion of a Christian heritage by virtue of being a part of the American culture. The natural tendency when surrounded by the trappings of something as monolithic as Christianity in America is to assume a certain level of knowledge and authority about it. It's clear from many posts I've read and many conversations I've taken part in that such assumptions are often misplaced.

Some views expressed are, for lack of a more diplomatic adjective, based in ignorance. It's a dangerous brand of ignorance because it's based on a superficial assumption of authority. People who have never read the Bible or, for some reason or another, dislike their first perception of Christians take part in discussions with the false assumption that they are properly equipped to debate

I realize that there are some who have given Christianity their objective attention and came to the conclusion that it holds little value (or even that it may be offensive). I've met many who have intimate knowledge of scripture but consider it ludicrous. That's perfectly fine with me. Sadly, these people are in the tiny minority. Most condemnation of Christianity that I've experienced is rooted in the very same kind of sheep mentality that the the fundamentalist is often accused of.

So, let's continue the debates... but I encourage all those who are not Christians to re-assess how much they really know about the people they sometimes insult so sharply.

MageB420666 · 11-06-2004, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

Christianity is everywhere. Everyone seems to have some notion of a Christian heritage by virtue of being a part of the American culture. The natural tendency when surrounded by the trappings of something as monolithic as Christianity in America is to assume a certain level of knowledge and authority about it. It's clear from many posts I've read and many conversations I've taken part in that such assumptions are often misplaced.

Some views expressed are, for lack of a more diplomatic adjective, based in ignorance. It's a dangerous brand of ignorance because it's based on a superficial assumption of authority. People who have never read the Bible or, for some reason or another, dislike their first perception of Christians take part in discussions with the false assumption that they are properly equipped to debate

So, let's continue the debates... but I encourage all those who are not Christians to re-assess how much they really know about the people they sometimes insult so sharply.

Ok, there was so much I object to in this post that I'm not sure where to start, so lets start with the obvious:

Christianity is everywhere.

I don't know where you come from or how you were raised but being in the U.S. I would hope that there are several places Christianity is not at: the Government, public schools, and courthouses. The U.S. was founded with the idea of seperation of church and state, let's remember that. Secondly your assuming that the U.S. and western European countries are the only important places with this statement. Christianity is not everywhere, but it is widespread in the Western Hemisphere and Western Europe. And by virtue of it being widespread, yes, many people do have a notion of what Christianity is about, mainly from interactions with Christians, and I have happened to notice that for many people, being a Christian and following actual Christian dogma are seperate affairs. Oh, and yes I can listen to the radio and flip through television channels and come nowhere close to a sermon. As for churches being everywhere, with the majority of the U.S. population being Christian it's gonna happen, go the the Middle East and you'll probably find a similar situation with mosques.

Next your assuming that all Christians are versed in the bible and know a lot about it and their own religion. That is simply not true, I've met Christians that know less about the bible(and what Christianity stands for) than I do and I'm Jewish and have never read the bible.

Next statement:

Some views expressed,....are based in ignorance.

What about the fairly common misbelief that Jews killed Christ? Isn't that based in ignorance? As for people commenting and debating Christianity without researching the bible, well, as I said before, many times their arguments are based on interactions with Christians themselves, not the bible. And as far as I'm concerned, what the members of a religion say and do has far more bearing on the religion than the text it's based off of.

Bionic Monkey · 11-06-2004, 09:54 PM

I think it's rather unfair to demand intimate knowledge of your holy scripture before I'm allowed discuss it and criticise it. There are many Christians in this world that have never explored beyond the confines of their own religious upbringing, yet casually dismiss (and even mock) other religions.

Am I a scholar in the bible and Christianity? No, but I'd wager I have a better grasp than your average person on the street. At what point would you deem that I am worthy to dismiss Christianity? Do I need to cite chapter and verse on command? List each book in the NT and OT? Do I have to be able to break down the metaphore inherant in the many parables the bible contains?

Why isn't it enough to see rampant hypocrisy and bigotry that runs through mainstream Christianity?

I don't ask people to recite or even kinda explain the lotus sutra to me before I'll accept their criticism of Buddhism.

Unright · 11-06-2004, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

This is written with the dual purpose of adding a word of caution to the mix as well as to start a discussion.

Many of the more prominent threads in Tilted Philosophy and Politics (especially recently) touch on the nature of Christians and Christianity in the world. As a devout Christian who comes from fundamentalist roots (my family might say I've transplanted myself a bit), I've been very frustrated with the tone of discussion. Which brings me to my intended point...

Christianity is everywhere. You can't walk in a single direction for long in our country without bumping into a church of some sort. You can't flip through TV channels or turn your radio dial without hearing a sermon. Everyone seems to have some notion of a Christian heritage by virtue of being a part of the American culture. The natural tendency when surrounded by the trappings of something as monolithic as Christianity in America is to assume a certain level of knowledge and authority about it. It's clear from many posts I've read and many conversations I've taken part in that such assumptions are often misplaced.

Some views expressed are, for lack of a more diplomatic adjective, based in ignorance. It's a dangerous brand of ignorance because it's based on a superficial assumption of authority. People who have never read the Bible or, for some reason or another, dislike their first perception of Christians take part in discussions with the false assumption that they are properly equipped to debate

I realize that there are some who have given Christianity their objective attention and came to the conclusion that it holds little value (or even that it may be offensive). I've met many who have intimate knowledge of scripture but consider it ludicrous. That's perfectly fine with me. Sadly, these people are in the tiny minority. Most condemnation of Christianity that I've experienced is rooted in the very same kind of sheep mentality that the the fundamentalist is often accused of.

So, let's continue the debates... but I encourage all those who are not Christians to re-assess how much they really know about the people they sometimes insult so sharply.

Those are some very good points. Christianity has a definate presence in American culture.

Many religious debates are too personal for most to handle. It's a touchy subject since if you admit someone else is right, you conceide that your beliefs are flawed and it throws you into an existential crisis. There is a well-known quote that states "The best defense is a good offense" and most people resort to using this tactic. After all it's much easier to make a nasty quip then to get into a lenghy argument.

Now you seem like an intelligent Christian, and I appreciate that. Remember that for every Non-Christian that says something about "bible-thumpers" to dismiss you, there are many Christians who would rather say "God hates Fags" or "Burn in Hell" then would rather have a serious discussion about theology. Ignorance runs rampant on both sides of the fence.

I myself am an agnostic who has had many long religious discussions and i've played out the conversation many times with different arguments and usually end up at the same ending. It takes faith to believe in God, and I simply don't have that. Christianity is not for everyone.

irateplatypus · 11-07-2004, 02:32 AM

wow mage, i can't imagine someone reading my post the way you did. i am speaking from the perspective of a US citizen. of course christianity doesn't penetrate EVERY SINGLE aspect of our society... but there is no denying that the christian church has influence either directly or by cultural association with nearly everything that goes on. even the things that run-counter to a christian worldview in our society are often a reaction against christian influence.

bionic monkey, i don't demand that everyone have knowledge of biblical scripture... but on what grounds would you defend speaking out of ignorance? saying that ignorance exists on both sides (and it does) does not vindicate anybody. it seemed like you were trying to rebut but did so with agreeing with me and taking my conclusion even further. so you may know more than some christians, so you have a better grasp than the average person on the street... so what? i will argue that the average person on the street knows very little outside of what is seen in movies or pop culture. knowing more than they really doesn't necessarily amount to much. i don't pretend to know you or where you're coming from, so i can't make a personal judgement. however, i will assert that knowing more than the average person (in and of itself) does not constitute knowing in any meaningful measure.

unright, i know what you're saying and agree with much of it. going back to my original point, there is too much social and political dogma associated with Christianity. i think christians have tried to make their faith relevant in too many ways that aren't central to the faith itself. instead of legislating morality... we should live morally ourselves and spread the hope of Christ through our personal relationships. holding a protest sign with a hateful message has a deleterious effect on the church's image. a person seeing the sign on the news perceives only the contextless information the sign provides. the christian has repelled people with dogma that has little to do with Christ's ministry and the people unfamiliar with Christ have the impression that they know something of the bible through the irresponsibility (and sometimes ignorance) of a poor example. it's a lose/lose situation.

Unright · 11-07-2004, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

unright, i know what you're saying and agree with much of it. going back to my original point, there is too much social and political dogma associated with Christianity. i think christians have tried to make their faith relevant in too many ways that aren't central to the faith itself. instead of legislating morality... we should live morally ourselves and spread the hope of Christ through our personal relationships. holding a protest sign with a hateful message has a deleterious effect on the church's image. a person seeing the sign on the news perceives only the contextless information the sign provides. the christian has repelled people with dogma that has little to do with Christ's ministry and the people unfamiliar with Christ have the impression that they know something of the bible through the irresponsibility (and sometimes ignorance) of a poor example. it's a lose/lose situation.

You are right in that most who oppose Christianity oppose it because some Christians generally warp the message of Christ in to serve their own interests. I'm sure you'll find few that oppose the actual message of Christ, himself. The problem lies in the small details.

Christianity is roughly 2000 years old and it's manuscript, The Bible, was written in an archiac from of hebrew. It has been translated and re-translated to an incredible degree. This means that the original story is incredibly diluted and warped to begin with. I speak both English and French and even in these two contemporary languages, messages don't necessarily translate exactly. The jist can be understood, but grammar, vocabulary, adjectives, colloquialisms, etc.. all change the meaning slightly. Sometimes outright biases are thrown in either intentionally or not.

Strong messages like "Thou Shalt Not Kill" survive more or less intact because it's simple. More complex messages are interpreted more ways then you can shake a Great Schism at.

Tkae the famous anti-gay verse: Leviticus 18:22 which is V’et zachar lo tishkav mishk’vey eeshah toeyvah hee. Does that translate to "Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin" or as "Ritual anal sex between two men in a Pagan temple is forbidden."?

It's a moot question. Arguing the point from one side or the other means that you are drawn into a Christian debate. Since I'm a Non-Christian, it's not my place to argue or preach the dogma of a religion that is not my own.

Christians have a hard enough time interprating what message is to be learned from the Bible without actively encouraging others into the fray.

Source : Religious Tolerance.org

LoganSnake · 11-07-2004, 10:21 AM

I don't have too much of a problem with religions (not just Christianity) unless it is forced upon me. You would not believe how many devoted Christians and Jews I've met that tried to prove to me that my atheistic mentality would bring me nowhere but the fiery pits of Hell.

No offense, but I think that most religions who's purpose is to worship a mythical higher being are bullshit. I only talk about this when somebody questions my beliefs thinking that their religion is the right one. In most cases, those individuals are Christians. As long as you can accept that there are people who do not wish to believe in the same thing you believe in, the world will be a much more peaceful place to live in.

I, also, would like to agree with Bionic Monkey and his statement about requiring the knowledge of "holy scriptures". About 20% of people with whom I've had my discussion on this topic have actually read the entire Bible, Torah, Koran, etc. Most of them went just by what they either learned at their temples, taught from childhood by their parents, or the information they learned by listening to somebody speak. I believe that as long as you can make a coherent argument that actually makes sense, little scripture knowledge is required.

SecretMethod70 · 11-07-2004, 10:48 AM

Unright, even such "obvious" mesages are not translated properly. The text for "thou shalt not kill" is more properly translated as "thou shalt not take innocent life" or "thou shalt not murder." It makes a big difference considering many people think that commandment to be an argument against the death penalty. It isn't. There are plenty of arguments against it in the Bible - primarily the New Testament, but that is not one of them.

This just highlights the importance of understanding the Bible in context - something it seems many fail to do. Homosexuality is a prime example. Aside for the debate on whether it is wrong in the first place - and there's plenty of reason I think to say that it is not - one must ask if it is "Christian" to oppose legal state sponsored gay marriage for example. I do not think it is. Hate the sin but love the sinner, to take a saying from a non-Christian source. Actively pursuing the denial of homosexuals to be able to make a public and legal commitment of love - the most important emotion in Christianity - goes beyond hating the sin and, rather, fails to respect the humanity of the sinner.

MikeyChalupa · 11-07-2004, 11:09 AM

Same here, Logan. If you choose to believe that I'm going to go to hell because I don't believe in God the way you do, or not at all, fine. Be my guest. But you don't need to get in my face about it. I promise not to get in your face about MY belief that you're wasting prime sleep-in time every Sunday morning and throwing hundreds of dollars away every year to get to the same afterlife I am... nothing.

Oh wait, I just did. My bad. Sucks, doesn't it? Only I promise not to to kill you for it.

-Mikey

MageB420666 · 11-07-2004, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

wow mage, i can't imagine someone reading my post the way you did. i am speaking from the perspective of a US citizen. of course christianity doesn't penetrate EVERY SINGLE aspect of our society... but there is no denying that the christian church has influence either directly or by cultural association with nearly everything that goes on. even the things that run-counter to a christian worldview in our society are often a reaction against christian influence.

You don't have to imagine it, I gave you proof.

I know you were speaking from a U.S. citizens perspective, which is part of what I was responding to. Part of the reason that many people in other countries don't view the U.S. very well is because of the way Americans think. You see right there is one example, the U.S. is the only country that I know of on two continents with the name America to refer to itself as America, as if no other country in North or South America matters, because everyone should automatically assume that when someone from the U.S. says they are American, everyone will automatically know their reffering to the U.S.

Sorry for that, I'll try to get back on the actual topic of this thread:

Quote:

Jews I've met that tried to prove to me that my atheistic mentality would bring me nowhere but the fiery pits of Hell.

Who would these Jews be? I have never heard a single threat from my Rabbi or anyone in my Temple of me going to burn in the Eternal Fires of Hell for my sins. As far as I understood it, the Jewish belief doesn't even contain a hell anymore. If you Jewish your supposed to follows God's laws out of love of God, not a fear of Hell. But maybe I'm the one whose been mislead.

As for way too many Christians taking the Bible word for word, its way to common and it does do Christianity overall a disservice. Just like some Muslims following the Koran word for word as led them to have an overall bad image as wife beaters, terrorists, etc. when in reality most of them are not.
Religous texts should not be taken word for word as the absolute truth and word of God. They were written by man, and many times have been translated from other languages. Religious texts should be used as a general guide of how you want to live your own life, not as basis to force others to live theirs in a certain way.

Unright · 11-07-2004, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MageB420666

You don't have to imagine it, I gave you proof.

I know you were speaking from a U.S. citizens perspective, which is part of what I was responding to. Part of the reason that many people in other countries don't view the U.S. very well is because of the way Americans think. You see right there is one example, the U.S. is the only country that I know of on two continents with the name America to refer to itself as America, as if no other country in North or South America matters, because everyone should automatically assume that when someone from the U.S. says they are American, everyone will automatically know their reffering to the U.S.

Wha....?

The full name of the country is the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. What else are it's inhabitants suppose to refer to themselves as? North and South America are continents. Nobody refers to themselves are coming from a paticular continent instead of a paticular country.

It looks like you're trying to make a point about American arrogance, but that example is kinda fucked up.

Oh, and on-topic...

One main reason that many Non-Christians are openly antagonistic towards Christianity is because of the constant recruitment tactics. While Christianity is splintered into a thousand different interpretations, they are all actively trying to recruit new converts wherever they spread.

Even a simple request for people to read the bible can be viewed as a recruitment technique.

TawG · 11-07-2004, 07:28 PM

christians have made the discussions valid without ever reading the bible. By their influence on history you cant get around the discussion. Are we not supposed to discuss the reformation or renesance because we dont know the bible thoroughly? Are we not fit to discuss the witch hunt, USAs presidency, AIDS and anything else christianity has effected? I say as long as you have historical knownledge you can even discuss something as apostrifical as the spirit.

martinguerre · 11-07-2004, 09:15 PM

Quote:

but on what grounds would you defend speaking out of ignorance?

*nods

If someone tried to criticise Buddhism with out any knowledge of the cannon of Buddist texts and thought, i would roll my eyes. Critical ignorace is not valuable, no matter what is being criticized. Sorry...

Irate....i think it's best if what we push for as thinking Christians is to demand acknolwledgement of our existance. Yes, ignorant Christians exist. But that is not all...and to make it very clear that there are other Christian answers to the same questions. Good thread, btw.

Suave · 11-07-2004, 10:51 PM

I think irate is just trying to get everyone to stop being such hardcore wankers when it comes to Christianity. People tend, in my experience, to turn stubborn, ignorant, and extremist when it comes to talking about religions, especially Christianity/Judaism/Islam. I'm not saying everyone is like this, because I sure as hell am not, but it's a pretty frequent occurance, and it generally gets in the way of any kind of intelligent discourse to be had.

SecretMethod70 · 11-07-2004, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suave

I think irate is just trying to get everyone to stop being such hardcore wankers when it comes to Christianity.

Best way of summarizing this thread. Ever.

I dunno if you're English, but I just love that word

LoganSnake · 11-08-2004, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MageB420666

Who would these Jews be? I have never heard a single threat from my Rabbi or anyone in my Temple of me going to burn in the Eternal Fires of Hell for my sins. As far as I understood it, the Jewish belief doesn't even contain a hell anymore. If you Jewish your supposed to follows God's laws out of love of God, not a fear of Hell. But maybe I'm the one whose been mislead.

I should've been more clear. Chrisitans tried to scare me with Hell numerous times. Jews, on the other hand, simply stated that the only way for me to find peace in the afterlife is to accept their god. We have Jews for Jesus people come to our door every Sunday even after numerous times of telling them not to. None of the religious people I've met wanted aknowlege that I have different beliefs than them. They did, but they discarted them as simple ignorance.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not speaking about every single person but those who are heavily influenced by religion.

SecretMethod70 · 11-08-2004, 08:48 AM

I believe attempting to "convert" people is an act in futility. I'd rather pursue open discussions of the merits and history between two faiths and seek common understanding with someone.

Charlatan · 11-08-2004, 09:01 AM

As far as I know Jews do not go out proselytizing people.

You are born Jewish or not. You *can* convert to Judaism but it just isn't the same...

I can't speak for Jews for Jesus, but they seem to be an abberation...

roachboy · 11-08-2004, 09:21 AM

the basic problem with christianity **as a political force** is the gulf that seperates it from the ideas that animate it. that the gulf increases as a particular, protestant fundamentalist version of the religion imposes itself as THE form the religion takes.

i object to the tendency in **this** version of christianity to arbitrarily mix comportments derived from the new and old testaments.

i object to the intolerance exhibited by "christian" politics--which have no relation to the message in the new testament in particular--not to the message about teh dignity of the poor, not to the fact that believers are abjured to not pass judgement on others less they themselves be juged---christian right politics seems to me the abandonment of any meaningful political correlate to the notion that one can and should love one's neighbor.

it has been twisted around in political discourse to a message about what looks like religious imperialism--love is only extended insofar as people who do not believe insofar as they are potential converts--real differences present other problems--which you can see being played out around issues like the "war on terror" and the rationale for racism it provides, all wrapped in both the flag and the veneer of christian sensbility.

this has nothing to do with the core of the belief system.

i do not care whether individuals believe or not, nor do i care about why they believe--the exception comes on the interpersonal level, in which context the concern i might have is extended to a friend on the basis of friendship. i pass not judgement on those who believe. go ahead. i have gone through a range of personal phases with reference to christianity myself. i do not believe, but i understand that is particular to myself.

i have no patience with the confusion of responses to christianity as it is emerging as a rightwing political block with those directed at the religion itself or those who choose to believe.

the two are not the same.

that individual believers would react in this way is strange--it is as if these folk have to put aside the fact of the political presence of a particular variant of the religion that in the states right now purports to speak in the name of all christianity--following a logic that has the right in general purporting to speak for "americans"

it seems to me that the source of the problem irate raises at the outset is the political mobilization of conservative fundamentalist protestant churches.
that mobilization creates the conditions within which your reaction unfolds.
that mobilization is the problem, then, is it not?
but i do not see you complaining about that part--only about the reactions to it.
why is that?

it does not seem to me that you can have it both ways.

Suave · 11-08-2004, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

Best way of summarizing this thread. Ever.

I dunno if you're English, but I just love that word

No, I just love the word too. Sometimes I wish I were English though...

martinguerre · 11-08-2004, 11:38 AM

Quote:

As far as I know Jews do not go out proselytizing people.

indeed, until the fall of the temple, they used to proselytize quite a bit. Diaspora Judiasm hasn't had the same focus... With in the community, threat of Hell or judgement is a reality, particularly in the Frum or Orthodox. "Trembling Before G-d" is a documentary about the Frum community's relation to it's GBLT sons and daughters...and it's not a pretty picture in terms of the official reaction. Lots of advocation for conversion therapy, shame and guilt.

roachboy...i can't speak for others, but i do spend quite a bit of time opposing the deployment of Christianity in fundamentalist ways. The reactions are troubling too...and often are a Fundyism of their own, and so i will confront them too. But i wouldn't say the liberal Christians of the board are silent on issues of Christian Fundamentalism by any means.

SecretMethod70 · 11-08-2004, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinguerre

roachboy...i can't speak for others, but i do spend quite a bit of time opposing the deployment of Christianity in fundamentalist ways. The reactions are troubling too...and often are a Fundyism of their own, and so i will confront them too. But i wouldn't say the liberal Christians of the board are silent on issues of Christian Fundamentalism by any means.

Same. I have serious personal problems with the idea of Christian (or any) fundamentalism.

filtherton · 11-08-2004, 12:03 PM

Nice thread, irate. It is hip to be down on western religion. I think critics of christianity very often make the mistake of treating the whole of christianity as if it is completely ideologically consistent. It is not. These arguments can be summarized by, "I don't like christians/christianity because they do this". This kind of argument is fundamentally flawed, not all christians are the same.

I'm not really christian, but i know that there are plenty of good people who are christian just as there are many bad people who are christian. The common connection between them is not that they are christian, but that they are human.

Besides, any of the common criticism of christianity could be easily applied to athiests or agnostics. Do many of them proselytize? Yes. Are many of them philosophically ethnocentric? Yes. Are many of them completely unable to see wisdom in a religious perspective that they don't share? Yes.

MageB420666 · 11-08-2004, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoganSnake

I should've been more clear. Chrisitans tried to scare me with Hell numerous times. Jews, on the other hand, simply stated that the only way for me to find peace in the afterlife is to accept their god. We have Jews for Jesus people come to our door every Sunday even after numerous times of telling them not to. None of the religious people I've met wanted aknowlege that I have different beliefs than them. They did, but they discarted them as simple ignorance.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not speaking about every single person but those who are heavily influenced by religion.

Jews for Jesus are not Jewish. Their Christians. Christians are nothing other than Jews that believe Christ was the Mesiah. Although the meaning of the Mesiah has changed from Roman times to present date.

MageB420666 · 11-08-2004, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unright

Wha....?

The full name of the country is the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. What else are it's inhabitants suppose to refer to themselves as? North and South America are continents.

United Statesian? Maybe... Any takers? No? Oh well.

Just trying to get a slight and very unimportant message across.

Oh, and the North and South American continents can also be reffered to as the Americas, so therefore when you say you are American, it could also be saying that you are from either of the continents, so yes it is rather arrogant of us Americans to refer to ourselves as such.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unright

Nobody refers to themselves are coming from a paticular continent instead of a paticular country.

What about Australians?

martinguerre · 11-08-2004, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MageB420666

United Statesian? Maybe... Any takers? No? Oh well.

Just trying to get a slight and very unimportant message across.

Oh, and the North and South American continents can also be reffered to as the Americas, so therefore when you say you are American, it could also be saying that you are from either of the continents, so yes it is rather arrogant of us Americans to refer to ourselves as such.

What about Australians?

What's gallingly asinine about your comments about "American" is that the vast majority of American nations are in fact heavily Christian. So...considering your original point that it was a false assumption that Christianity is everywhere in America...

Yeah. Whatever. Get on with it.

MageB420666 · 11-08-2004, 07:49 PM

That was kinda the reason that I said it didn't matter and was very unimportant.

Ustwo · 11-08-2004, 10:14 PM

Now I've been an atheist since I was 8, but I still went to Catholic schools because its still some of the best schools in the country. This gave me a lot of exposure so to speak.

What I don't get is people who try to change their religion based on what they want. Either it is or it isn't, if you are picking and choosing you are just trying to make yourself feel good.

My wife thought she was religious when we met. We also fucked like rabbits. I said at some point, 'if you are so religious why do you have sex with me all the time when we are not married, do you really believe or do you just want to believe and change it when it gets in the way of what you want to do?'

Well of course that was a dangerous question in case she sided with god heh, but it had the intended effect.

Suave · 11-09-2004, 12:48 AM

Ustwo, it's not so much changing your religion as based on what you want, as it is changing it based on what fits best. It's like buying new clothes as you grow as a young 'un. You have to switch from buying pants with a 24" inseam to pants with a 28" inseam, for example, and it's not because you WANT your inseam to be 28", but because the 28" inseam best fits you.

turbofish · 11-09-2004, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MageB420666

Ok, there was so much I object to in this post that I'm not sure where to start, so lets start with the obvious:

Christianity is everywhere.

I don't know where you come from or how you were raised but being in the U.S. I would hope that there are several places Christianity is not at: the Government, public schools, and courthouses.

I'm an outsider and I would like to differ. Christianity is in the Goverment, public schools and the courthouses. The president himself says he takes his orders from a higher power. He says he is a believing christian who prays every day. There are powerful christian (and other religious) movement in Washington. Who appoints the judges? Some schools don't teach the basics of the evolution but rather Adam and Eve...

martinguerre · 11-09-2004, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

What I don't get is people who try to change their religion based on what they want. Either it is or it isn't, if you are picking and choosing you are just trying to make yourself feel good.

Change from what? What the person sitting next to you thinks? What the pastor thinks? The pope? Religion is not self-interpreting....individuals have to make decisions about what their faith will mean in their day to day lives. This does not invalidate the proceedings...there is no human endevour in which we can entirely turn off our minds. If there is one...i'd rather not try.

Daoust · 11-09-2004, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbofish

The president himself says he takes his orders from a higher power. He says he is a believing christian who prays every day. There are powerful christian (and other religious) movement in Washington. Who appoints the judges? Some schools don't teach the basics of the evolution but rather Adam and Eve...

What insanity! What madness! What tomfoolery! No wonder America is so screwed up!

roachboy · 11-09-2004, 07:44 AM

if you listen to any of the fundies--the legal "scholars" given mechanisms for social mobility by the federalist society and any number of other new conservative-funded pseudo-academic outfits--when they talk about the "founders" the argument comes down to an attempt to undermine th idea that there is anything secular about the constitution--from this follows the argument for strict interpretation and the absurd original intent doctrine--if the courts legislate, they violate gods will seems to be the underlying argument. because god operates through the constitution as they interpret it.

if you look at the christian right from this angle, it becomes clear that there is no internal brake on what they understand themselves as being able to do in blurring the line between their beliefs and what they feel can and should be imposed on the rest of us politically.

which is yet another reason why it is hard to be neutral about the christian right as a political force.
because this group has surfaced as a political force, the question of what believers think or do is moot.
it seems to me that trying to switch the question of belief for the questions raised by the actions of this political block is an attempt to shortcircuit conversation about the latter.

i think i might have said this already, in a different way. but there we are.

MageB420666 · 11-09-2004, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daoust

What insanity! What madness! What tomfoolery! No wonder America is so screwed up!

Yeah, it really sucks that turbofish is right, but that is why I phrased the statement the way I did, I said "I would hope", because the United States is SUPPOSED to have seperation of church and state. Too bad way to many people over here have forgotten that little fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by turobfish

Some schools don't teach the basics of the evolution but rather Adam and Eve...

Are you talking public or private schools? If your saying public schools, then:

That is because as of right now, the THEORY of Evolution is still just a theory, and therefore the THEORY of Creation is just as valid, since neither of them has been proven or disproven. And the story of Adam and Eve is not just a Christian belief, it is also in the Jewish and Islamic beliefs as well.
So I would still have to go with Christianity being outside of public schools.

tecoyah · 11-09-2004, 08:09 AM

It is my opinion that Religion, on the whole, has a certain corrupting influence on any Government entity. But, so does experience, lifestyle, and personality. The primary difference I have seen is the inevitable dissent created by Religion when it comes to public policy.
Personal Faith is one of the most ingrained aspects of many people, and will thus be extremely important in the day to day life choices we all make. That said, it is likely that setting public policy based in part, or on the whole, on any one Faith will have a polarizing effect on a society.
Personally, I have no problem with the Christian faith, having lived it for quite some time (I long ago abandoned it), I would also be accepting of ANY faith barring detrimental societal effects. The direction we seem to be going, towards a more faith based policy, and legislation based on such does worry me.
It would be unhealthy for our society to be forced to live in a christian society, if only because many are not Christian, and would be placed in a position of lifestyle and spritual limitations. As stated, I have no problem with the Christian faith, or those who follow it. I do have a problem with direspect of personal choice, and religious Bigotry.

jwoody · 11-09-2004, 08:22 AM

I would never impose my fundamentalist brand of atheism on others.

It's against my religion.

LoganSnake · 11-09-2004, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MageB420666

Jews for Jesus are not Jewish. Their Christians. Christians are nothing other than Jews that believe Christ was the Mesiah. Although the meaning of the Mesiah has changed from Roman times to present date.

Interestingly enough, these Christians come from Jewish Vocational Service center that's two blocks from my house.

The president being a devoted Christian like that troubles me. I think that the president's mind should be free of any fantasies and that his country changing decisions shouldn't be influenced by a "man in the sky". It's just not professional.

turbofish · 11-09-2004, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MageB420666

Are you talking public or private schools? If your saying public schools, then:

That is because as of right now, the THEORY of Evolution is still just a theory, and therefore the THEORY of Creation is just as valid, since neither of them has been proven or disproven. And the story of Adam and Eve is not just a Christian belief, it is also in the Jewish and Islamic beliefs as well.
So I would still have to go with Christianity being outside of public schools.

I'm not sure if it's public or private, a friend of mine was in the states for a year as a student... Somewhere where they speak like the redneck in Simpsons

She said that alot of her friends there are choosing *Collage* after if they taught the Adam and Eve instead of the Evolution theory. This was backed up by a guy I traveled with in Eastern Europe for a week or so... You know anything about the bearing of these claims?

I know it's hypothetically a theory... But atleast there are fact that supports it... I haven't found much of evidence to support how God made humans in his self image. Again, if you have, please share

I'm athiest by the way... I was christian when I was a kid... Took a step back and evaluated my faith when I was 15... Haven't looked back since... One of the most important things I live by is not forcing my will upon others. Sorry to say, not everyone shares that belief...

turbofish · 11-09-2004, 09:16 AM

By the way, I a quicky... some claim that science has become a religion... If so, I applaud a religion which admits it's wrong and corrects itself.

Lebell · 11-09-2004, 09:33 AM

By their fruits, shall you know them.

He who has eyes, let him see.

He who has ears, let him hear.

11-06-2004, 05:19 PM	#1 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	We're all neck-deep in Christianity... This is written with the dual purpose of adding a word of caution to the mix as well as to start a discussion. Many of the more prominent threads in Tilted Philosophy and Politics (especially recently) touch on the nature of Christians and Christianity in the world. As a devout Christian who comes from fundamentalist roots (my family might say I've transplanted myself a bit), I've been very frustrated with the tone of discussion. Which brings me to my intended point... Christianity is everywhere. You can't walk in a single direction for long in our country without bumping into a church of some sort. You can't flip through TV channels or turn your radio dial without hearing a sermon. Everyone seems to have some notion of a Christian heritage by virtue of being a part of the American culture. The natural tendency when surrounded by the trappings of something as monolithic as Christianity in America is to assume a certain level of knowledge and authority about it. It's clear from many posts I've read and many conversations I've taken part in that such assumptions are often misplaced. Some views expressed are, for lack of a more diplomatic adjective, based in ignorance. It's a dangerous brand of ignorance because it's based on a superficial assumption of authority. People who have never read the Bible or, for some reason or another, dislike their first perception of Christians take part in discussions with the false assumption that they are properly equipped to debate I realize that there are some who have given Christianity their objective attention and came to the conclusion that it holds little value (or even that it may be offensive). I've met many who have intimate knowledge of scripture but consider it ludicrous. That's perfectly fine with me. Sadly, these people are in the tiny minority. Most condemnation of Christianity that I've experienced is rooted in the very same kind of sheep mentality that the the fundamentalist is often accused of. So, let's continue the debates... but I encourage all those who are not Christians to re-assess how much they really know about the people they sometimes insult so sharply. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

11-07-2004, 02:32 AM	#5 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	wow mage, i can't imagine someone reading my post the way you did. i am speaking from the perspective of a US citizen. of course christianity doesn't penetrate EVERY SINGLE aspect of our society... but there is no denying that the christian church has influence either directly or by cultural association with nearly everything that goes on. even the things that run-counter to a christian worldview in our society are often a reaction against christian influence. bionic monkey, i don't demand that everyone have knowledge of biblical scripture... but on what grounds would you defend speaking out of ignorance? saying that ignorance exists on both sides (and it does) does not vindicate anybody. it seemed like you were trying to rebut but did so with agreeing with me and taking my conclusion even further. so you may know more than some christians, so you have a better grasp than the average person on the street... so what? i will argue that the average person on the street knows very little outside of what is seen in movies or pop culture. knowing more than they really doesn't necessarily amount to much. i don't pretend to know you or where you're coming from, so i can't make a personal judgement. however, i will assert that knowing more than the average person (in and of itself) does not constitute knowing in any meaningful measure. unright, i know what you're saying and agree with much of it. going back to my original point, there is too much social and political dogma associated with Christianity. i think christians have tried to make their faith relevant in too many ways that aren't central to the faith itself. instead of legislating morality... we should live morally ourselves and spread the hope of Christ through our personal relationships. holding a protest sign with a hateful message has a deleterious effect on the church's image. a person seeing the sign on the news perceives only the contextless information the sign provides. the christian has repelled people with dogma that has little to do with Christ's ministry and the people unfamiliar with Christ have the impression that they know something of the bible through the irresponsibility (and sometimes ignorance) of a poor example. it's a lose/lose situation. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

11-07-2004, 10:21 AM	#7 (permalink)
LoganSnake We work alone Location: Cake Town	I don't have too much of a problem with religions (not just Christianity) unless it is forced upon me. You would not believe how many devoted Christians and Jews I've met that tried to prove to me that my atheistic mentality would bring me nowhere but the fiery pits of Hell. No offense, but I think that most religions who's purpose is to worship a mythical higher being are bullshit. I only talk about this when somebody questions my beliefs thinking that their religion is the right one. In most cases, those individuals are Christians. As long as you can accept that there are people who do not wish to believe in the same thing you believe in, the world will be a much more peaceful place to live in. I, also, would like to agree with Bionic Monkey and his statement about requiring the knowledge of "holy scriptures". About 20% of people with whom I've had my discussion on this topic have actually read the entire Bible, Torah, Koran, etc. Most of them went just by what they either learned at their temples, taught from childhood by their parents, or the information they learned by listening to somebody speak. I believe that as long as you can make a coherent argument that actually makes sense, little scripture knowledge is required. __________________ Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

11-07-2004, 10:48 AM	#8 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	Unright, even such "obvious" mesages are not translated properly. The text for "thou shalt not kill" is more properly translated as "thou shalt not take innocent life" or "thou shalt not murder." It makes a big difference considering many people think that commandment to be an argument against the death penalty. It isn't. There are plenty of arguments against it in the Bible - primarily the New Testament, but that is not one of them. This just highlights the importance of understanding the Bible in context - something it seems many fail to do. Homosexuality is a prime example. Aside for the debate on whether it is wrong in the first place - and there's plenty of reason I think to say that it is not - one must ask if it is "Christian" to oppose legal state sponsored gay marriage for example. I do not think it is. Hate the sin but love the sinner, to take a saying from a non-Christian source. Actively pursuing the denial of homosexuals to be able to make a public and legal commitment of love - the most important emotion in Christianity - goes beyond hating the sin and, rather, fails to respect the humanity of the sinner. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling Last edited by SecretMethod70; 11-07-2004 at 10:58 AM..

11-08-2004, 08:48 AM	#17 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	I believe attempting to "convert" people is an act in futility. I'd rather pursue open discussions of the merits and history between two faiths and seek common understanding with someone. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

11-06-2004, 09:54 PM	#3 (permalink)
Bionic Monkey Upright	I think it's rather unfair to demand intimate knowledge of your holy scripture before I'm allowed discuss it and criticise it. There are many Christians in this world that have never explored beyond the confines of their own religious upbringing, yet casually dismiss (and even mock) other religions. Am I a scholar in the bible and Christianity? No, but I'd wager I have a better grasp than your average person on the street. At what point would you deem that I am worthy to dismiss Christianity? Do I need to cite chapter and verse on command? List each book in the NT and OT? Do I have to be able to break down the metaphore inherant in the many parables the bible contains? Why isn't it enough to see rampant hypocrisy and bigotry that runs through mainstream Christianity? I don't ask people to recite or even kinda explain the lotus sutra to me before I'll accept their criticism of Buddhism.

11-07-2004, 11:09 AM	#9 (permalink)
MikeyChalupa Squid Location: USS George Washington	Same here, Logan. If you choose to believe that I'm going to go to hell because I don't believe in God the way you do, or not at all, fine. Be my guest. But you don't need to get in my face about it. I promise not to get in your face about MY belief that you're wasting prime sleep-in time every Sunday morning and throwing hundreds of dollars away every year to get to the same afterlife I am... nothing. Oh wait, I just did. My bad. Sucks, doesn't it? Only I promise not to to kill you for it. -Mikey

11-07-2004, 07:28 PM	#12 (permalink)
TawG Crazy	christians have made the discussions valid without ever reading the bible. By their influence on history you cant get around the discussion. Are we not supposed to discuss the reformation or renesance because we dont know the bible thoroughly? Are we not fit to discuss the witch hunt, USAs presidency, AIDS and anything else christianity has effected? I say as long as you have historical knownledge you can even discuss something as apostrifical as the spirit.

11-07-2004, 10:51 PM	#14 (permalink)
Suave Twitterpated Location: My own little world (also Canada)	I think irate is just trying to get everyone to stop being such hardcore wankers when it comes to Christianity. People tend, in my experience, to turn stubborn, ignorant, and extremist when it comes to talking about religions, especially Christianity/Judaism/Islam. I'm not saying everyone is like this, because I sure as hell am not, but it's a pretty frequent occurance, and it generally gets in the way of any kind of intelligent discourse to be had.

11-08-2004, 09:01 AM	#18 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	As far as I know Jews do not go out proselytizing people. You are born Jewish or not. You can convert to Judaism but it just isn't the same... I can't speak for Jews for Jesus, but they seem to be an abberation... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

11-08-2004, 09:21 AM	#19 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	the basic problem with christianity as a political force is the gulf that seperates it from the ideas that animate it. that the gulf increases as a particular, protestant fundamentalist version of the religion imposes itself as THE form the religion takes. i object to the tendency in this version of christianity to arbitrarily mix comportments derived from the new and old testaments. i object to the intolerance exhibited by "christian" politics--which have no relation to the message in the new testament in particular--not to the message about teh dignity of the poor, not to the fact that believers are abjured to not pass judgement on others less they themselves be juged---christian right politics seems to me the abandonment of any meaningful political correlate to the notion that one can and should love one's neighbor. it has been twisted around in political discourse to a message about what looks like religious imperialism--love is only extended insofar as people who do not believe insofar as they are potential converts--real differences present other problems--which you can see being played out around issues like the "war on terror" and the rationale for racism it provides, all wrapped in both the flag and the veneer of christian sensbility. this has nothing to do with the core of the belief system. i do not care whether individuals believe or not, nor do i care about why they believe--the exception comes on the interpersonal level, in which context the concern i might have is extended to a friend on the basis of friendship. i pass not judgement on those who believe. go ahead. i have gone through a range of personal phases with reference to christianity myself. i do not believe, but i understand that is particular to myself. i have no patience with the confusion of responses to christianity as it is emerging as a rightwing political block with those directed at the religion itself or those who choose to believe. the two are not the same. that individual believers would react in this way is strange--it is as if these folk have to put aside the fact of the political presence of a particular variant of the religion that in the states right now purports to speak in the name of all christianity--following a logic that has the right in general purporting to speak for "americans" it seems to me that the source of the problem irate raises at the outset is the political mobilization of conservative fundamentalist protestant churches. that mobilization creates the conditions within which your reaction unfolds. that mobilization is the problem, then, is it not? but i do not see you complaining about that part--only about the reactions to it. why is that? it does not seem to me that you can have it both ways. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 11-08-2004 at 09:23 AM..

11-08-2004, 12:03 PM	#23 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	Nice thread, irate. It is hip to be down on western religion. I think critics of christianity very often make the mistake of treating the whole of christianity as if it is completely ideologically consistent. It is not. These arguments can be summarized by, "I don't like christians/christianity because they do this". This kind of argument is fundamentally flawed, not all christians are the same. I'm not really christian, but i know that there are plenty of good people who are christian just as there are many bad people who are christian. The common connection between them is not that they are christian, but that they are human. Besides, any of the common criticism of christianity could be easily applied to athiests or agnostics. Do many of them proselytize? Yes. Are many of them philosophically ethnocentric? Yes. Are many of them completely unable to see wisdom in a religious perspective that they don't share? Yes.

11-08-2004, 07:49 PM	#27 (permalink)
MageB420666 <Insert wise statement here> Location: Hell if I know	That was kinda the reason that I said it didn't matter and was very unimportant. __________________ Apathy: The best outlook this side of I don't give a damn.

11-08-2004, 10:14 PM	#28 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Now I've been an atheist since I was 8, but I still went to Catholic schools because its still some of the best schools in the country. This gave me a lot of exposure so to speak. What I don't get is people who try to change their religion based on what they want. Either it is or it isn't, if you are picking and choosing you are just trying to make yourself feel good. My wife thought she was religious when we met. We also fucked like rabbits. I said at some point, 'if you are so religious why do you have sex with me all the time when we are not married, do you really believe or do you just want to believe and change it when it gets in the way of what you want to do?' Well of course that was a dangerous question in case she sided with god heh, but it had the intended effect. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

11-09-2004, 12:48 AM	#29 (permalink)
Suave Twitterpated Location: My own little world (also Canada)	Ustwo, it's not so much changing your religion as based on what you want, as it is changing it based on what fits best. It's like buying new clothes as you grow as a young 'un. You have to switch from buying pants with a 24" inseam to pants with a 28" inseam, for example, and it's not because you WANT your inseam to be 28", but because the 28" inseam best fits you.

11-09-2004, 07:44 AM	#33 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	if you listen to any of the fundies--the legal "scholars" given mechanisms for social mobility by the federalist society and any number of other new conservative-funded pseudo-academic outfits--when they talk about the "founders" the argument comes down to an attempt to undermine th idea that there is anything secular about the constitution--from this follows the argument for strict interpretation and the absurd original intent doctrine--if the courts legislate, they violate gods will seems to be the underlying argument. because god operates through the constitution as they interpret it. if you look at the christian right from this angle, it becomes clear that there is no internal brake on what they understand themselves as being able to do in blurring the line between their beliefs and what they feel can and should be imposed on the rest of us politically. which is yet another reason why it is hard to be neutral about the christian right as a political force. because this group has surfaced as a political force, the question of what believers think or do is moot. it seems to me that trying to switch the question of belief for the questions raised by the actions of this political block is an attempt to shortcircuit conversation about the latter. i think i might have said this already, in a different way. but there we are. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

11-09-2004, 08:09 AM	#35 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	It is my opinion that Religion, on the whole, has a certain corrupting influence on any Government entity. But, so does experience, lifestyle, and personality. The primary difference I have seen is the inevitable dissent created by Religion when it comes to public policy. Personal Faith is one of the most ingrained aspects of many people, and will thus be extremely important in the day to day life choices we all make. That said, it is likely that setting public policy based in part, or on the whole, on any one Faith will have a polarizing effect on a society. Personally, I have no problem with the Christian faith, having lived it for quite some time (I long ago abandoned it), I would also be accepting of ANY faith barring detrimental societal effects. The direction we seem to be going, towards a more faith based policy, and legislation based on such does worry me. It would be unhealthy for our society to be forced to live in a christian society, if only because many are not Christian, and would be placed in a position of lifestyle and spritual limitations. As stated, I have no problem with the Christian faith, or those who follow it. I do have a problem with direspect of personal choice, and religious Bigotry. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha Last edited by tecoyah; 11-09-2004 at 08:33 AM..

11-09-2004, 08:22 AM	#36 (permalink)
jwoody Shackle Me Not Location: Newcastle - England.	I would never impose my fundamentalist brand of atheism on others. It's against my religion.

11-09-2004, 09:16 AM	#39 (permalink)
turbofish Tilted	By the way, I a quicky... some claim that science has become a religion... If so, I applaud a religion which admits it's wrong and corrects itself. __________________ ><((((°> Jag bara gissar o spekulerar o det jag skriver behöver inte ha någon förankring med verkligheten alls.

11-09-2004, 09:33 AM	#40 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	By their fruits, shall you know them. He who has eyes, let him see. He who has ears, let him hear. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!