The argument from evil...again. - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

iman · 09-17-2004, 06:46 AM

I got tired of reading posts about halfway down, and I hope somebody didn't already write this:

Why do you assume that evil exists? Isn't it more likely that evil is a human construction? We're one species among MANY and what's evil for us is pretty good for other species and, perhaps, for the maintenance of the earth. What we see as evil is not necessarily objectively evil. I suppose this is a variation on the "We can't know God" objection, but it's one that you don't address in your opening posting.

Hell, didn't we get kicked out of the garden of eden because one of us (bitch) tried to OBTAIN THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL? Obviously that knowledge isn't something that we're supposed to have. I'm not a christian, but did the bible ever say that we actually GOT that knowledge? So we humans are trying to organize the world by good and evil - maximizing what we think is good and minimizing what we think is evil, obviously - but it's not at all clear that we should live by such categories. In fact, despite what Dubya and the christian crusaders say, the bible seems to make it clear that the drive to point out evil got us in serious fucking trouble with the big guy up there.

So there's my response: evil doesn't exist as such, the IDEA of evil only exists as a temptation for human beings who have fallen from the ideal. The idea of evil is a human construction, and a highly destructive one at that.

Peace.

Phage · 09-17-2004, 07:19 AM

Iman
By defining evil as a moral or ethical judgement it seems to me that it is a term that applies only between humans and God. It is difficult to say that either humans or God created evil, but if I had to choose one I would say God because he gave us free will, which gives rise to the possibility of defying God.

I think that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is one of the better illustrations of free will. When God created us he didn't start us out in a nasty position, cursed by sin from the get go. We started in the Garden of Eden, a paradise without pain or suffering. The concept of going against God was unknown. We were just given one command by God (it could have been anything, but in this case it is a set up to what had to happen if it were disobeyed.) which we broke. By breaking that command we had to recieve the ability to understand the concept of disobeying God, the knowledge of Good and Evil in order to understand what we had done wrong. By getting that knowledge we had already kicked ourselves out of Eden; we could no longer live in bliss with the knowledge and guilt of what we had done wrong.

So the original sin is the Knowledge of Good and Evil, something God would have preferred we never experienced and knew. After all, God would prefer that we lived guiltless and painless lives. There is also no real way we can fix that original sin except to ask for forgiveness, hence Christianity.

CSflim · 09-17-2004, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iman

Why do you assume that evil exists?

I didn't...

Quote:

Originally Posted by csflim

Now one thing I want to make absolutely clear from the very outset is that this argument does not claim to disprove the existence of all imaginable gods, only a small subset of all these gods; namely those that are all powerful and all-good. You can certainly have an all-powerful God, or an all-good God. Just not both.
Another way is to take a moral-relativist stance and deny that evil exists.

________

irateplatypus · 09-17-2004, 09:11 AM

another question: why is it assumed that all things destructive and/or punitive are necessarily not good?

irateplatypus · 09-17-2004, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phage

Iman
So the original sin is the Knowledge of Good and Evil, something God would have preferred we never experienced and knew. After all, God would prefer that we lived guiltless and painless lives. There is also no real way we can fix that original sin except to ask for forgiveness, hence Christianity.

sorry for the consecutive posts. but i'd like to point out that the original sin was breaking God's rule, the knowledge of good and evil was its consquence.

Phage · 09-17-2004, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

... but i'd like to point out that the original sin was breaking God's rule, the knowledge of good and evil was its consquence.

You are of course right, but I was referring to Original Sin (probably should have capitalized it when using it this way) in the sense it is often used; as a sort of miasma hanging around the shoulders of every human from the day we are born.

martinguerre · 09-18-2004, 02:34 PM

"You can certainly have an all-powerful God, or an all-good God. Just not both."

I think there might be some confusion here, CS. Why do we assume that an all good and powerful diety would choose to act in all situations? Self chosen restraint is one of the oldest theological explanations of this question.

iman · 09-20-2004, 06:47 PM

Okay, I'll take another shot at it, this time assuming evil exists not as a human construct:

Human beings are an infintessimally small part of the universe. What is good for one species in the universe is often detrimental to another (e.g. what's good for parasites is often bad for their hosts). Furthermore, what's good for the maintenance of the planet is often bad for species (I suppose volcanic eruptions and such are good for planet maintenance - they relieve some sort of geo-whatsit pressure, right?). So, with the universe set up as it is, everything may in fact be for the good - just not great for HUMANS. But why should we tiny unfortunate apes be favored over everything else in the whole damned universe? Our pain may well contribute to the overall good.

Now, COULD the universe have been set up differently? Is this the best of all possible worlds? Who is to say, when we only have a glimpse of one teeny-tiny speck of a speck of the whole? What's is like for the species and rocks and shit on the other side of the universe? This may well be the best that an all-good, all-powerful Big Guy who is, unfortunately, constrained by the bounds of logic could come up with. Tough luck for us hairless apes.

EDIT: I just thought of a much simpler argument using the same basic idea. We assume that the world were set up for us humans, so the existence of leeches and mosquitoes and shit like that is bad, as are the existence of hurricanes and natural other natural disasters. Well, what if the world were set up to benefit paramecium #457 and we humans are just a step in the evolution of that great organism that grew on our eyelids but has now spread to other organisms. Our existence, in God's eyes, was always secondary to the future of that favored organism, and we're no longer necessary. Oh, and all those natural disasters? Paramecia LOVE that shit. They love hurricanes and all that because they fuck like crazy in that weather. We don't like it so much, but fuck us. The world is all good, just not for us apes.

09-17-2004, 09:11 AM	#44 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	another question: why is it assumed that all things destructive and/or punitive are necessarily not good? __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

09-20-2004, 06:47 PM	#48 (permalink)
iman Upright Location: NYC	Okay, I'll take another shot at it, this time assuming evil exists not as a human construct: Human beings are an infintessimally small part of the universe. What is good for one species in the universe is often detrimental to another (e.g. what's good for parasites is often bad for their hosts). Furthermore, what's good for the maintenance of the planet is often bad for species (I suppose volcanic eruptions and such are good for planet maintenance - they relieve some sort of geo-whatsit pressure, right?). So, with the universe set up as it is, everything may in fact be for the good - just not great for HUMANS. But why should we tiny unfortunate apes be favored over everything else in the whole damned universe? Our pain may well contribute to the overall good. Now, COULD the universe have been set up differently? Is this the best of all possible worlds? Who is to say, when we only have a glimpse of one teeny-tiny speck of a speck of the whole? What's is like for the species and rocks and shit on the other side of the universe? This may well be the best that an all-good, all-powerful Big Guy who is, unfortunately, constrained by the bounds of logic could come up with. Tough luck for us hairless apes. EDIT: I just thought of a much simpler argument using the same basic idea. We assume that the world were set up for us humans, so the existence of leeches and mosquitoes and shit like that is bad, as are the existence of hurricanes and natural other natural disasters. Well, what if the world were set up to benefit paramecium #457 and we humans are just a step in the evolution of that great organism that grew on our eyelids but has now spread to other organisms. Our existence, in God's eyes, was always secondary to the future of that favored organism, and we're no longer necessary. Oh, and all those natural disasters? Paramecia LOVE that shit. They love hurricanes and all that because they fuck like crazy in that weather. We don't like it so much, but fuck us. The world is all good, just not for us apes. Last edited by iman; 09-20-2004 at 06:58 PM..

09-17-2004, 06:46 AM	#41 (permalink)
iman Upright Location: NYC	I got tired of reading posts about halfway down, and I hope somebody didn't already write this: Why do you assume that evil exists? Isn't it more likely that evil is a human construction? We're one species among MANY and what's evil for us is pretty good for other species and, perhaps, for the maintenance of the earth. What we see as evil is not necessarily objectively evil. I suppose this is a variation on the "We can't know God" objection, but it's one that you don't address in your opening posting. Hell, didn't we get kicked out of the garden of eden because one of us (bitch) tried to OBTAIN THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL? Obviously that knowledge isn't something that we're supposed to have. I'm not a christian, but did the bible ever say that we actually GOT that knowledge? So we humans are trying to organize the world by good and evil - maximizing what we think is good and minimizing what we think is evil, obviously - but it's not at all clear that we should live by such categories. In fact, despite what Dubya and the christian crusaders say, the bible seems to make it clear that the drive to point out evil got us in serious fucking trouble with the big guy up there. So there's my response: evil doesn't exist as such, the IDEA of evil only exists as a temptation for human beings who have fallen from the ideal. The idea of evil is a human construction, and a highly destructive one at that. Peace.

09-17-2004, 07:19 AM	#42 (permalink)
Phage Insane	Iman By defining evil as a moral or ethical judgement it seems to me that it is a term that applies only between humans and God. It is difficult to say that either humans or God created evil, but if I had to choose one I would say God because he gave us free will, which gives rise to the possibility of defying God. I think that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is one of the better illustrations of free will. When God created us he didn't start us out in a nasty position, cursed by sin from the get go. We started in the Garden of Eden, a paradise without pain or suffering. The concept of going against God was unknown. We were just given one command by God (it could have been anything, but in this case it is a set up to what had to happen if it were disobeyed.) which we broke. By breaking that command we had to recieve the ability to understand the concept of disobeying God, the knowledge of Good and Evil in order to understand what we had done wrong. By getting that knowledge we had already kicked ourselves out of Eden; we could no longer live in bliss with the knowledge and guilt of what we had done wrong. So the original sin is the Knowledge of Good and Evil, something God would have preferred we never experienced and knew. After all, God would prefer that we lived guiltless and painless lives. There is also no real way we can fix that original sin except to ask for forgiveness, hence Christianity.

09-18-2004, 02:34 PM	#47 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	"You can certainly have an all-powerful God, or an all-good God. Just not both." I think there might be some confusion here, CS. Why do we assume that an all good and powerful diety would choose to act in all situations? Self chosen restraint is one of the oldest theological explanations of this question.