noctypair

RoboBlaster. Yes and no.You posit that the evidence for a god are based in personal experience. I would not deny that claim, but I would need to ask what sorts of experience are permissible. I doubt when can (Rationally) use 'warm fuzzy feelings' as any sort of claim. I think if we need to be stricter with ourselves than that. Anecdotes (as found in the holy books of any and all religions) do not pass the test either. What we need is independently verifiable tests that can be repeatedunder laboratory conditions.

I understand that this may sound harsh to some, but I would not expect anyone to believe in any theory without good supporting evidence - and this is the best way to get it.

I guess you had better call me an atheist.

RoboBlaster

Perhaps I was a bit unclear. Because any conclusive findings are impossible under strict scientific experimentation, no one can rationally come to the conclusion that God definitely exists. Does this mean that one cannot rationally entertain the notion that it is possible? What I was getting at was yes, it is possible.

Halx

I'm not following you RoboBlaster. Because it's impossible to prove his existence, he must therefore exist? What kind of conclusion is that?

God is so many different things to so many people that he exists only as a concept there for comfort. Like a teddy bear or a blanket. There is no way to rationally justify his existence in any other location but the minds of people who believe. If we could divide the world into two planes of reality where one plane housed all of the believers and one housed the non-believers, you could ascertain that God only exists in the former. However, we are all one the same planet.

Like light and dark, one's absense means the presence of the other. Since there are many people who do not believe in God, and the rest cannot prove to them that he does exist, I am left with the conclusion that the impression that people have of God is totally and completely in their head. He does not actually exist.

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Rekna

There are many things we can't prove to be true that we consider a truth or don't question in the world. God cannot be proven to be true or false. This is the problem.

Halx you sound very scientific where things needed to be proven to you. From this I assume you believe in evolution (which I to believe in). So where did first life come from? Do you thing somehow some chemicals happend to mix just right to spontaniously create life? If so why haven't scientists been able to recreate this or prove it is even remotely possible? Are you willing to blindly accept the mixture theory without any proof, the theory is tenous at best.

First life came from somewhere but where? Everything has a beginning where did mans come from? Now I know you're going to ask where is God's beginning and honestly I can't tell you. I can't explain that which i cannot understand. But the idea of life on earth being created without any help from anywhere seems to far fetched to me. I want to see scientists create life from nothing but a few chemicals.

And where did these chemicals come from? Where did energy come from? What are the origins of the universe? These are questions that scientists can't answer but yet the big bang is considered fact by so many. But what caused the big bang? What was before the big bang?

When science can answer these questions i'll be amazed.

combatmedicjen

Welshbyte, that's some brilliant life advice. I like you

noctypair

Come over some time!! Let me show you how this works. Seriously. Insofar as life creation goes.

As to the big bang, your argument shows a misunderstanding of how this works. The problem lies in your seeing space and time as seperate entities, unrelated and non-dependent. Time simply does not exist outside of space. To ask whatr happened before the big bang (space) is also to ask what happened before time. Clearly nonsensical.

I imagine though, that you are trying to make some sort of 'first-cause' argument. If so then I doubt that that illogic of this will faze you. The biggest problem, of course,with first cause is that it is infinitely regressible. That is to say that it can go back and back forever (trust me, I wrote my thesis on something similar - in philosophy no less). First cause is ultimatelyan argument that brings its own destruction.

theusername

There was a spark that caused the big bang, what caused that spark? We dont know, but until we do you can not prove God does not exist or never existed, (I am starting to realize i am a deist.)

"First cause is ultimately an argument that brings its own destruction." Please elaborate I'm interested in your insight to this statement.

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hannukah harry

evolution doesn't have anything to do with the beginning of life. it has to do with how life evolved and developed after it started. also, scientist have managed to make proteins in experiments trying to recreate the primordial goo. don't forget that we're still in relative techonological infancy. the difference between what we could do 50 years ago and present day will be small compared to the advances we'll be able to make in 50 years. just because the beginnings of life haven't been recreated yet, that doesn't mean it won't some day be done.

basically, it sounds to me like you're saying "i can't think of anything else to explain this, and while science has explanations, they havne't been succesfully proven in lab tests, so it must be god." have you ever thought, maybe it's not god, things just happened the way they happened, and one day, many many years from now after we're all dead, humanity will find all the answers through science?

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Rekna

What i'm saying is if science is going to hinge all of it's beliefs on these theorys which require many leaps like life spontaniously creating itself without any help whatsoever then i'm just as well off believing god had a role in the creation. Science can't recreate it but even if they can it is taking them a long time to recreate it in a lab with that specific goal and you expect me to believe that just happend on its own? When it comes to creation science asks us to make many leaps and bounds. When you compare it to creation with a hand of God involved it seems much more plausable and the answer is much simpler. So use okkums razor.

noctypair

You do know that to ask for the proof of non-existence is nonsensical right?

First cause brings about its own destruction because it can be regressed infinitely. If you posit a god as first cause you then force yourself into looking for a first cause for the god....ad infinitum

Halx

Rekna, are you not satisfied with not having an answer for everything? One of the basic traits of the human psyche is the need to be correct, so it's understandable for people to adapt a belief system that explains everything neatly for them. "God created and runs it all."

I for one relish the fact that I do not know everything. Did you know in the mid-late 1800's the US Patent Office filed to be shut down because they believed that everything that could be invented had already been? Imagine that. There are many things that we do not know, but are on the verge of discovering.

The belief in God is not logical to me. It seems like a shortcut that leads to nowhere. It's like a garden trellis, dictating the pattern that which the ivy grows. I for one want to see it grow wild, wherever it wants, to venture anywhere it can, not just up the wall.

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CSflim

Just because there is no answer one is justified in giving, does not mean that one is justified in giving whatever answer one will.

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Rekna

But yet you seem to relish in the fact that you *know* God does not exist.

Halx

I know what I know. I learn things as they present themselves to me. I have rationalized to you the basis of my knowledge of god's (lack of) existence. What more could you ask for?

I'm not the one claiming something exists that cannot be proven.

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tecoyah

The period of time humans have experimented with electro-chemical reaction is currently measured in decades. In that time we have made the basis of RNA (tholins) just by chance. In the early 80s'. Carl Sagan wanted to see what the atmosphere of an early Earth would do if Zapped by lightning. The result was an organic compound now called Tholins. These compounds when mixed in a liquid combine to form something very much like RNA. The Earth (Nature if you will) has had the better part of 4,000,000,000,000 years to experiment, in a laboratory significantly larger than Dr. Sagans. If we understand the nature of chemical reaction, it is not hard to accept that the likelihood of some level of self replication, over a four billion year timeframe is relatively good.
That said, the likelihood of some all powerful dude, yanking the rib from a guy, and turning it into a woman would fail under the Razor theory you suggest we follow.

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Stompy

What's kinda funny is when you ask someone who believes in god if they believe there's a flying space creature hiding in the shadows Jupiter. They'll most likely answer no.

Why believe in god, but not the flying space creature? Can you disprove the flying space creature's existence?

The thing is, the human mind finds comfort in numbers. If millions of people worldwide suddenly believed in this flying space creature, then guess what would happen? People would start believing. It's all mental.

Proof of this can be found in scientology. This man, L. Ron Hubbard, takes a random story and convinces people it's true. Something about an intergalactic war on earth billions and billions of years ago, yadda yadda, psychologists are bad because it hurts your thetans, etc etc. I think that in itself proves how gullible people are. Can I prove that this intergalactic war didn't exist? No, but can you prove there isn't a flying space creature behind Jupiter? "Do you think I'm stupid for believing in the flying space creature? Well, I think you're stupid for believing in scientology!"

IMO, religion is the greatest illusion in the history of the universe. The more science matures, the more things are ruled out. For example, if a scientific theory is created or a discovery is made, the church will actually rationalize with scientists like, "OK, you can have that theory, we'll agree with you there, but we're sticking with THIS one." C'mon now..

All the reports over time about the euphoric feeling that people get as they die or come close to it... was often believed to be that of a heaven or god, but later found out to be the release of endorphins as your body begins to shut down. Those endorphins make you hallucinate. Of course you will see things like dead relatives, or have the feeling of floating.

Most people think of god as a creator.. but if anything, if I were to believe in a "god", I picture it more as the mere existence of energy and activity of the universe, which, to me, is alive. It's doing something. Stuff is going on. Galaxies are being created, black holes are devouring matter..

But then again, might be pure randomness and particle reaction. Who knows. The simple logical aspect of it all is there is no proof and there never will be.

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OFKU0

I can agree with that. It always interests me how religious folk get so uptight with me when I tell them I am my own God. I am responsible for my good fortunes as well as my mistakes. When I achieve something worthy of praise, I thank myself. When I fuck up, I take responsibility for it. When my fortunes change, I look within myself for answers, not something else. Some will say that this is an example of God doing his good work. It is. It's me.

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docbungle

I understand that belief in God is not logical. Living one's life in a manner dedicated to pleasing said God is also not logical, particularly if God doesn't even exist. And if God doesn't exist, then it is, quite frankly, a big fat waste of time to believe in God. I agree with this wholeheartedly.

All of us waste our time with all sorts of crap all the time. We don't see it that way ourselves, but there are always others who do. That doesn't make it any less important to us.

I do not live in a manner that is 100% logical. I do not believe life to be logical or, in fact, follow any sort of logical path whatsoever. And I think there is a lot more to this existence than merely what can be proven by human minds and their logic.

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CSflim

This is a very strong statement and I do not mean to pick it apart. Throughout my years, I have come across many a weary soul being depressed or stressed or just plain angry at the world. One of the easiest answer to these problems has been God, which I find to be a perfectly good and rational reason to believe in God. I am agnostic. I have faith and beliefs without a God being necessary, so I do not need to believe in him but others do. They can be too weak emotionally and mentally to deal with this festering world and even if there is not a God their beliefs sheild them enough to continue living.

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Zdragva

People say there is no evidence of God, people say there is evidence there is no God, people say that God is a prehistoric idea used and abused by others and is irrelevent.
I say, explain all you see around you without using God. Tell me where everything came from and why there is anything rather than nothing and why do I live when its easier for nothing to exist, without using the word God. im not an athiest, im a scientist

hannukah harry

^^^ out of curiousity, why is it easier for nothing to exist?

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OpieCunningham

It's interesting how the term "rational" can so easily be subverted. Is it rational to believe in the non-existence of god? Of course not - it is not rational to believe in anything which cannot be empirically demonstrated.

To demonstrate this point, the atheist (classic definition) feels that without proof, there is no proof of god, ergo there is no god. The agnostic (classic definition) feels that without proof, there is no proof of god and without proof of no proof, there is god.

But what is proof? The existence of everything is proof of something. If it is not proof of god, what is it proof of? Let's make up a word for the cause of the existence of everything: Detrio. Detrio caused everything to be as it is or turned out to be. One must, by necessity, believe in the rationality of Detrio - we have empirical evidence of Detrio in the fact of our very existence. Whether Detrio has some variation of continuing conciousness or control over the everything that exists is irrelevant.

Detrio is god, the creator, the first cause. To not believe in it is denial of rationality.

Heaven and hell and virtue and faith and sacrament and holiness are all just tools used to control - either as a group over another group or as an individual over ones actions. Ultimately, they are all secondary to the question of whether god/Detrio exists.

Zdragva

hannukah, well either the universe (i mean everything) is totally free no breaking of the laws of science and all this is allowed to be, in which case id say after 15 billion years its very unlikely that it all wont just have collapsed back to whatever it was previously, i mean 15 billion years is a long time for something to pull itself out of nothing by using no help, i.e. energy etc. and just simply exists, yet what exists is lots and lots of somethings (us and all we see) and it has to come from absolutly nothing. OR the universe breaks the laws of science as we know them now and creates something from nothing but does it by force, and if theres nothing what can there be to froce something out of nothing? you could argue the universe is infinate and that it wasnt created or desroyed and that would solve the riddle as to how it all came about, but that just poses even more questions such as how can be sustained? where did it come from anyway or has it always been and if it has always been what do all those infinities of time and space in the real sense actually mean?

little_tippler

I once read that an agnostic is taking the easy way out - you don't believe in God but just in case he wants to fry you in hell because you don't, then maybe you do believe.

I think that's unfair, because I believe I am an Agnostic atheist lol. I don't believe in God, for many of the reasons exposed here (and some personal ones, derived from experiences in my life), but I play with the idea that I would like it if there was one...Although at this point in my life, and having lived through certain events that I will not bore you with here, if there was such an entity, I would be too angry/disappointed with "It" to truly be happy knowing the truth...

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Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

Stompy

I totally agree with this.

I think of "god" not as something in mythology, but the mere existence of something... like the universe. It's alive, it's doing SOMETHING (after all, we are here, so SOMETHING is going on). Do I think a conscious being created everything? Nah.. but I think the events that set in motion the way particles and matters of energy react with one another are significant.

The whole heaven/hell thing is really BS, IMO. I mean, in all the vastness of space, the universe, and everything that exists, why would god send me to hell for masturbating? Am I really ruining the fabric of existence or essense of life by doing that? Nah..

Whether or not a god exists, SOMETHING sparked the big bang (if you believe in that theory).. but there IS a reason, whatever it may be, a chemical reaction, whatever, that matter has formed into what we call life and consciousness, as obscure as it may be.

But this stuff makes my head hurt, so I'm gonna go drink.

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MojoRisin

Someday we will look back on this whole god thing and say 'oops!'

I AM A HUMAN BEING!
This isn't enough?

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toxic515

I believe in God... or a creator, anyway.. I believe that it is completely irrelevant to my day to day life. Ethics I can arrive at logically, and therefor, I do. I figure God can take care of himself... I got shit to do.

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braindamage351

Most theists seem to wonder why someone would want to be an atheist. I for one, absolutely hate living living in a fantasy world, and that is more than enough for me.

However for those out there following that ridiculously stupid "just in case" logic:
One day I was flipping through the channels one day and I ended up on one of those christian networks. According to them, if you don't believe in the one true God you are praying to a self-made idol that lets you do whatever you feel like doing. They consider this even WORSE than doing nothing at all.

Just look at the infinite number of possible gods with possible rules and restrictions. It's blindingly obvious that if there is some god, he's never touched humanity in any way shape or form.

The 3 major monotheistic ones religions were started by a bunch of guys wandering in the desert for years on end. Do you really trust them?

adam

I'm agnostic, because I don't believe there is sufficient evidence to rationally decide whether there is or is not a god (or gods). I have religious feelings, as most people do, but I think trying to provide a dogma is just a farce.

Or as my grandmother used to say, "I'm more worried about how I treat folks while I'm here." I loved that woman.

d*d

All the people talking about proof for the existence of God are forgetting one of the fundamental points about beleif in his existence - FAITH, faith does not require proof.