Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > The Academy > Tilted Philosophy


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 07-26-2004, 11:51 AM   #1 (permalink)
pow!
 
clavus's Avatar
 
Location: NorCal
does the New Testament endorse monogamy?

I had a random thought as I endured another Bible thumper's diatribe agaist gay marriage. He spoke of the sactity of marriage, and how letting gays marry is an affront to God and country; that marriage is the union of one man and one woman. And it occurred to me that the Bible is full of people with multiple wives. Heck, God commanded at least one married man to knock up another woman and make her his wife.

So, when Jesus said that He was the new covenent, and he wiped out a bunch of old laws, did polygamy go too. Or is one man / one woman another "modern" christian invention.

(Please don't hijack this into a gay marriage thread.)
__________________
Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.
clavus is offline  
Old 07-26-2004, 12:12 PM   #2 (permalink)
Devoted
 
Redlemon's Avatar
 
Donor
Location: New England
A different hijack; it's a joke, I'm sure, but all the references are probably accurate. How this translates to the New Testament, I don't know.
Quote:
Dear Dr. Laura: Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific Bible laws and how to follow them:

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality? I don't agree. Can you settle this?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)?

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.
Redlemon is offline  
Old 07-26-2004, 12:48 PM   #3 (permalink)
Upright
 
Location: Oklahoma City
redlemon, that's great.

The New Testament says scarce little about sexuality. And when it does people often take what it says out of context. Take for example when it talks about fornication. For the most part this word is only used in the context of having sex with a temple prositute during the worship of a pagan god, and that is the reason it's forbidden. The sex is not explicitly forbidden. I believe the only passage that talks about polygamy is when Paul says that church elders should only have one wife. This was not a rule, but a suggestion. I don't recall anything about homosexuality, but I'll do a better check when I get home.
__________________
Bombing for peace is like fucking for virginity.

-Unknown
Rand007 is offline  
Old 07-26-2004, 03:08 PM   #4 (permalink)
Addict
 
Location: M[ass]achusetts
maybe the bible is just a spiced up set of explanations that a backwards people came up with a long time ago combined with the teachings of a few very clever men who deitized themselves to strengthen the population's moral fabric.
__________________
In the end we are but wisps
ManWithAPlan is offline  
Old 07-27-2004, 07:47 AM   #5 (permalink)
Mad Philosopher
 
asaris's Avatar
 
Location: Washington, DC
Thanks for an irrelevant post, Manwithaplan.

As far as monogamy goes:

The oldest instituting of marriage, given in Genesis, states explictly that marriage is between a man and a woman, and very strongly implies that it is to be between one man and one woman. This instituting is repeated at least once (I think more than once) by Jesus in the gospels approvingly.

As far as the examples of polygamy go, one should note that none of them go well. The best example is Jacob, who marries Leah and Rachel, which causes endless feuding within the family eventually resulting in Joseph's being sold into slavery. You cite the example of God commanding a married man to marry another woman -- could you remind me who this is? I don't remember this exact story.
__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche
asaris is offline  
Old 07-27-2004, 08:35 AM   #6 (permalink)
pow!
 
clavus's Avatar
 
Location: NorCal
I was thinking of Onan,when I wrote that. But now I think I was wrong. God told Onan to marry and knock up his brother's wife, but I'm not sure Onan was married at the time.

Where in the Bible does Jesus state that marriage is between one man and one woman? For that matter, where in Genesis does it imply that it is between one man and one woman? I'd like to read the verses.
__________________
Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.
clavus is offline  
Old 07-27-2004, 10:54 AM   #7 (permalink)
MSD
The sky calls to us ...
 
MSD's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: CT
Quote:
Originally posted by clavus
Where in the Bible does Jesus state that marriage is between one man and one woman? For that matter, where in Genesis does it imply that it is between one man and one woman? I'd like to read the verses.
Genesis 2:23-34 The man said, 'This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh'...For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and they will become one flesh.

So, it seems that male/female pairs are the way things are intended to be

BUT ...

Genesis 2:18 it is not good for the man to be alone

If someone has no heterosexual feelings, and it is not good for the man to be alone, then shouldn't the logical conclusion be that a homosexual relationship that brings two people together rather than leave them alone would be more in accordance with God's will?

Matthew 19:4-6 And He [Jesus] answered and said to them, Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning “made them male and female,” and said, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh?” So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.

Here, Jesus reiterates the word of God.

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

18:29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.

18:30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.

On thew other hand, Leviticus seems to make a much less amibuous statement in regard to same-sex relationships.


Don't assume that my quotations from the bible imply belief in the text, I'm one of the Godless heathens who believes that it's mainly a work of fiction. I'm just giving the information that was requested.
MSD is offline  
Old 07-27-2004, 01:38 PM   #8 (permalink)
Upright
 
Location: Oklahoma City
There are two distinct stories of creation in the first part of Genesis written at different times/places and combined into the current version. The first says only this about male and female relations: Genesis 1:27-28 "27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, 'Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.'"

Nothing about marriage, sex for pleasure, etc; only about increasing the population of humans. The second story is quite different from the first. After no suitable 'helper' was found, God knocked Adam out and pulled out a rib. This is all that is said after that: Genesis 2:23-24 "23 The man said,
'This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman, [11] '
for she was taken out of man.'
24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh."

You could interpret that as a marriage with all that word implys in our context or you could interpret it as saying the same thing the first story did about a means to increase human population, not a law on relationships. The 'uniting' being sex and the 'one flesh' being the children created by that union.
__________________
Bombing for peace is like fucking for virginity.

-Unknown
Rand007 is offline  
Old 07-28-2004, 06:56 AM   #9 (permalink)
Mad Philosopher
 
asaris's Avatar
 
Location: Washington, DC
Thanks to the filthy godless heathen for finding the passages

I don't quite follow exactly what you're saying, Rand, but I'll try to respond. Since our present views have evolved from two sources; namely scripture and the Catholic church, I would consider what we view as being involved in marriage in essence the same as what the New Testament assumes by marriage.
__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche
asaris is offline  
Old 07-28-2004, 07:19 AM   #10 (permalink)
Devoted
 
Redlemon's Avatar
 
Donor
Location: New England
This should be a good link for further discussion:
Gay Marriage: The Complete Debate -- Beliefnet.com

Beliefnet is a site about religions and their belief structures, without advocating for any particular religion.
__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.
Redlemon is offline  
Old 07-28-2004, 12:58 PM   #11 (permalink)
Psycho
 
CoachAlan's Avatar
 
Location: Las Vegas
MrSelfDestruct and Rand, don't forget that the question was what does the New Testament say about marriage. Leviticus and Genesis are both from the Old Testament.
__________________
"If I cannot smoke cigars in heaven, I shall not go!"
- Mark Twain
CoachAlan is offline  
Old 07-28-2004, 06:12 PM   #12 (permalink)
pow!
 
clavus's Avatar
 
Location: NorCal
OK, so what we have here is a bunch of biblical figures with multiple wives, and one passage from Jesus about marriage that says itis between a man and woman. Sooo...I'm thinking that there is no New Testament prohibition against polygamy (as long as it is hetrosexual in nature).
__________________
Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.
clavus is offline  
Old 07-29-2004, 05:43 AM   #13 (permalink)
Devoted
 
Redlemon's Avatar
 
Donor
Location: New England
Well, this ought to have the answer in it somewhere: direct from the Vatican, Considerations Regarding Proposals To Give Legal Recognition To Unions Between Homosexual Persons.

It is way too long to include here, or for me to read right now. Perhaps someone else can dig the answer out.
Redlemon is offline  
Old 07-29-2004, 07:06 AM   #14 (permalink)
Mad Philosopher
 
asaris's Avatar
 
Location: Washington, DC
The encyclical redlemon mentions only argues against the legal recognition of homosexual unions. It doesn't really speak all that much to the Christian perspective on marriage, and says nothing about monogamy vs. polygamy. I'm going home this weekend, and I'll see if I can find something then.
__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche
asaris is offline  
Old 07-31-2004, 08:14 AM   #15 (permalink)
Mad Philosopher
 
asaris's Avatar
 
Location: Washington, DC
Looking at the Catechism of the Catholic Church, I found little expressly on polygamy except for the following:

"Moral conscience concerning the unity and indissolubility of marriage developed under the pedagogy of the old law. In the Old Testament the polygamy of patriarchs and kings is not yet explicitly rejected. Nevertheless, the law given to Moses aims at protecting the wife from arbitrary domination by the husband, even though according to the Lord's words it still carries traces of man's "hardness of heart" which was the reason Moses permitted men to divorce their wives."

""The unity of marriage, distinctly recognized by our Lord, is made clear in the equal personal dignity which must be accorded to man and wife in mutual and unreserved affection."[153] Polygamy is contrary to conjugal love which is undivided and exclusive."

"Unity, indissolubility, and openness to fertility are essential to marriage. Polygamy is incompatible with the unity of marriage[...]"

Polygamy hasn't been an issue for the church for a very long time, so it would probably take some digging to find writings that go into more detail.
__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche
asaris is offline  
Old 08-01-2004, 10:31 PM   #16 (permalink)
MSD
The sky calls to us ...
 
MSD's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: CT
Quote:
Originally posted by CoachAlan
MrSelfDestruct and Rand, don't forget that the question was what does the New Testament say about marriage. Leviticus and Genesis are both from the Old Testament.
Book of Matthew was the New Testament source I used, and clavus also asked about where it says it in Genesis. The Leviticus stuff is just background and supporting text.
MSD is offline  
 

Tags
endorse, monogamy, testament

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:29 PM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360