You want some Vinegar with that? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

05-16-2004, 09:08 AM

I have a 4 yr. old son and he is going through his most testing stage right now. Many tantrums, hitting, kicking, yelling, etc.
One night some friends of ours came over who have a 4 yr. old daughter. The mother said that she has used a tactic that seems to work wonders for the daughter. Although she's never had to give her any, she told me that vinegar is the cure.
So, I tested it on my son one night when he was beyond time-out for misbehaving. I thought- Vinegar! So we found the bottle, got a spoon, and fed him just a dab of it. Oh, that did not make him happy. Of course he asked for water afterwards, and we said No, so that he would get the full effect of what the vinegar was for. It seemed to work fairly well. He sat on the couch without saying a word after I asked him to or else he would get more vinegar.
We've given it to him several times already, but it's becoming more effective every time.
Of course, talking with them is still a wonderful, healthy tactic as well, but when all else fails, open your kitchen cabinet and grab a spoon. I've even just used my finger, since he tends to fight from my arm.
So, I thought I'd pass on this harmless tactic to others who may have a child who acts out.

la petite moi · 05-17-2004, 04:02 PM

That's great! (Sorry, I'm 18 and on Tilted Parenting! I just love your stories, Oshn!)

05-18-2004, 10:37 AM

I avoid any physical punishment (although I don't even call it punishment, because that is defining right from wrong). But vinegar is a harmless, yet effective way to let your child know that there are indeed consequences for their actions. Although I don't teach him of right and wrong, i must guide him with actions & consequences. I won't just let him do as he wishes- to an extent, but I always give him options and point out the potential consequences of each.

MXL · 05-18-2004, 01:56 PM

My son and daughter have been smothering there spinach, french fries etc. in vinegar since they were probably about 4, and my son has been eating Marmite (ask a Brit or Aussie) since he was 3. It would never work with my kids, but it can't hurt to try.

stldickie · 05-27-2004, 01:18 PM

Vinegar is a parents friend...I've found it 100% effective for Little Kid Smartmouth

MSD · 06-01-2004, 07:03 AM

While you're at it, try apple cider vinegar. Not only is it harmless, it helps cholesterol levels

I am glad to hear that someone has found a harmless way to discipline a child. Too often, I hear of beatings or total lack of discipline. Another one that my mom found works is a soft-soled slipper to the ass. Stings like a bitch for just long enough to remind the kid that he's getting punished for acting up, yet leaves no mark, no bruise, and causes no damage.

sashime76 · 06-17-2004, 04:12 AM

Hmmm, who would have thought of using vinegar this way? I need to forward this info to my wife, who is about 99.9% against smacking bottoms and slapping hands. Our 3 year old can get very naughty at times. Thanks for the tip.

sashime76

lady · 06-29-2004, 06:16 PM

My mom used a bit of liquid soap or tabasco sauce on our tongues or lips when we said "bad words".

shakran · 06-29-2004, 06:27 PM

I'll be the lone dissenter here and say that I don't think this is a very good disciplinary method. In the first place you're associating force feeding the kid foul tasting liquid in a spoon with bad behavior. Have fun explaining that he's not misbehaving the next time he needs cough syrup.

In the second place, what ever happened to discipline that did not involve physical punishment?

eagle1 · 06-30-2004, 11:05 AM

We tried tobassco sauce on my son one time when he spouted off. Told him to stick his tongue out and put a couple dabs on his tongue. Stood there for a second and asked for more!

Oh...THAT worked swell!

Stare At The Sun · 06-30-2004, 12:23 PM

While i'm no psych major, i will agree with Shakran and say that I do not believe this is good for the child. Honestly, I don't see how its any different than putting your child in a closet. Your child may end up having a taste aversion to all things vinegar for the rest of its life, as well as a subconcious fear of you feeding him. Especially if it happends often.

snoop · 06-30-2004, 07:04 PM

Never heard of this one . . . I'll give it a try and report back

S

shakran · 06-30-2004, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by snoop
Never heard of this one . . . I'll give it a try and report back

S

I do not mean to offend, but that is one of the worst possible approaches to parenting. If you've never heard of it, that means you don't know the possible consequences, yet you're willing to use your child as a guinea pig to see what happens? Pulling psychological experiments on your kids is immoral, unethical, and could damage the kid.

07-01-2004, 03:25 PM

thank you for sharing your opinion, shakran.

sailor · 07-01-2004, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lady
My mom used a bit of liquid soap or tabasco sauce on our tongues or lips when we said "bad words".

Yeah, it was always tabasco sauce for me. Worked for about a year before I came to like the taste

Shakran, while I see your point, children definitely need punishment occasionally. You cant just assume that the child will know right and wrong, and always act accordingly. Thats why its called parenting--you have to teach it to them. Talking doesnt always work, try it with a mouthy kid. Obviously, relying solely on punishment is a very bad idea, but it is absolutely a necessary evil sometimes.

shakran · 07-01-2004, 04:05 PM

I never said they don't need punishment. I said they don't need foul-tasting liquids shoved down their throat. There's a difference

powerclown · 07-01-2004, 05:41 PM

Curious.

Really, if the child is having a real tantrum deserving of punishment, how do you calm him down enough to stick a spoon of anything in his mouth? Sit on his chest? Headlock? Full-Nelson? Tranquilizers? Bad idea imo. Seems unnecessary, if the child is calm enough to open up and swallow. I guess Im nitpicking, but Im with the dissenters here. Just throw him in his room, close the door, and warn him not to come out til he's ready to behave. Repeat as often as necessary.

Works with us.
(For now...lol)

07-01-2004, 09:51 PM

powerclown- for some children that does work. For instance, my stepdaughter you could have her go sit on a chair in a corner for 5 minutes and she would do so...pouting, but she'd do it. My son- no. He has a very, very strong and independent personality and time-outs and putting him in his room don't work. If something doesn't work, i won't do it again. Simple as that. What has worked? vinegar. I simply dab a little on my finger and put it in his mouth. He doesn't really fight- he's almost curious, yet I know for a fact he dislikes the taste. But I have rarely needed to give it to him.

Quote:

Works with us.
(For now...lol)

Exactly. If it works for you- and your child- in a healthy manner, great. It all depends on your child and what works. Not every parent disciplines the same way, and that's okay. As I tend to say, "Whatever works". And I mean it.

pinkie · 07-02-2004, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MXL
My son and daughter have been smothering there spinach, french fries etc. in vinegar since they were probably about 4, and my son has been eating Marmite (ask a Brit or Aussie) since he was 3. It would never work with my kids, but it can't hurt to try.

Hahaha!!! I was going to say, "Those kids are going to grow up hating salad dressings!" Perhaps not?

Interseting tactic, I'd never heard of it until today.

For myself, bad things I tasted as a child stuck with me my whole life. At least you're not giving him a shot of whiskey each time he's in big trouble!

powerclown · 07-02-2004, 09:06 AM

Quote:

He has a very, very strong and independent personality and time-outs and putting him in his room don't work.

Im just curious, what part about timeouts & putting him in his room doesn't work? He won't stay there? Keeps opening the door? I'd see to it that he stayed in his room, that's for sure. A LOUD verbal warning usually results in the door returning to its closed position immediately.

shakran · 08-19-2004, 05:04 AM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004Aug9.html

Quote:

Feeling the Heat
Some Parents Apply Hot Sauce to a Child's Tongue as Punishment. The Practice Has Some Experts Burning

By Alison Buckholtz
Special to The Washington Post
Tuesday, August 10, 2004; Page HE01

Hot sauce adds a kick to salsa, barbeque, falafel and hundreds of other foods. But some parents use it in a different recipe, one they think will yield better-behaved children: They put a drop of the fiery liquid on a child's tongue as punishment for lying, biting, hitting or other offenses.

"Hot saucing," or "hot tongue," has roots in Southern culture, according to some advocates of the controversial disciplinary method, but it has spread throughout the country. Nobody keeps track of how many parents do it, but most experts contacted for this story, including pediatricians, psychologists and child welfare professionals, were familiar with it.

The use of hot sauce has been advocated in a popular book, in a magazine for Christian women and on Internet sites. Web-based discussions on parenting carry intense, often emotional exchanges on the topic.

But parents aren't the only ones asking "to sauce or not to sauce?" Several state governments have gotten involved in the debate. In Michigan in 2002, a child care center was sanctioned for using hot sauce to discipline a child. The mother of the 18-month-old boy reportedly gave the child care workers permission to use the sauce to help dissuade her son from biting other children.

Virginia's child protective services agency lists hot saucing among disciplinary tactics it calls "bizarre behaviors." The list includes such methods as forcing a child to kneel on sharp gravel, and locking him in a closet.

As with spanking, hot saucing elicits strong reactions, even among friends and family members. When Kim Crosen's mother-in-law discovered that Crosen was using hot sauce on her 5-year-old son, she was shocked, said Crosen, a Fairfax mother of three. Because of the sensitivity of the subject, Crosen agreed to be interviewed for this story only on the condition that she be identified by her maiden name.

After Amanda DeLorme of American University Park posted a message recommending hot sauce to members of DC Urban Moms, a popular e-mail bulletin board, she recalls that she received several responses asking, "How can you do this to your child?"

Parents who use hot sauce say that such tactics as timeouts, lectures, negotiation or restricting certain pleasures have not worked. For them, hot sauce -- or even the threat of it -- stops undesirable behavior.

"It works like a charm," DeLorme said.

Many of these parents say they are very careful about when and how they administer the pepper-laced condiment: They use only a drop, do it after repeated warnings and as a last-ditch measure. They remain confident that it causes no physical harm, and they say they talk with their child about the misbehavior afterward. They say it is similar to the old-fashioned practice of washing out a child's mouth with soap or to spanking (which some saucers do and some don't).

Crosen, who learned about the technique from a friend who carries packets of hot sauce in her purse to correct her own children's misbehavior, said she administers the sauce only "after many warnings, and for extreme circumstances," like when her son called his 3-year-old sister a "crybaby." She said she uses it about four times per year.

Pediatricians, psychologists and experts on child care and family life contacted for this story strongly recommend against the practice.

Tim Kimmel, a parenting expert who said he approaches parenting from an evangelical Christian perspective, has heard from parents that hot sauce works well. But he does not approve.

"Just because something works, that doesn't mean it's a good idea," said Kimmel, author of "Grace-Based Parenting" (W Publishing Group).

"Fear can be very effective as a discipline technique, but it's overkill. You haven't corrected the problem, and it means nothing in terms of building character. Our job as parents is to build character, not to adjust behavior."

Lisa Whelchel, actress and author of "Creative Correction: Extraordinary Ideas for Everyday Discipline" (Focus On the Family/Tyndale House), defends the practice.

"A correction has to hurt a little," she said. "An effective deterrent has to touch the child in some way. I don't think Tabasco is such a bad thing." Her book suggests a "tiny" bit of hot sauce be used, and offers alternatives such as lemon juice and vinegar.

Discipline involves "drawing a line to protect the child," Whelchel said, "and if they cross that line, there will be pain." Whelchel said she believes that disciplinary methods should be left up to parents -- who know their child best, are devoted to the child's well-being and can administer punishment with love.

But Betty Jo Zarris, manager of Virginia's child protective services program, said: "We have to have some community standards for what's appropriate to do to children. Common sense would tell you [hot sauce] is not appropriate for a child. The common man on the street would know this is offensive."

The Hot Tongue

DeLorme remembers being "at the point where I would try anything" with her 2 1/2-year old son, whom she described as "a disciplinary challenge." She learned about the use of hot sauce from a friend.

She now uses the pepper sauce, or the threat of it, when her son hits or bites his 5-year-old sister.

"He is better behaved as a result," DeLorme said. "He'll say, 'Please don't give me hot tongue, Mommy,' and [the threat] interrupts his behavior. We'll talk about it, hug and make up. That's what usually happens."

In those rare instances when the threat is not enough, DeLorme pries his mouth open and puts one drop of sauce on her son's tongue. "I don't feel like I am physically hurting him," said DeLorme, who described herself as "opposed to spanking and physical violence."

Like some other parents who use hot sauce, Crosen believes it is an appropriate punishment for "defiant talk. . . . I use it when the mouth is the offending party. He needs to learn to control what's coming out of his mouth. If it's his tongue that gets him in trouble, it's his tongue that gets punished."

As a Christian, she believes that "children need to respect and obey [parents] or they won't learn to respect and obey God. God won't hot sauce you, but you need to learn consequences."

Like DeLorme, Crosen reached a moment with her son where she thought, " 'That's it, I have had it' -- I needed something drastic to get through."

Crosen allows the hot sauce to sit on her son's tongue, then gives him milk and crackers to wash it down before having him explain why he was disrespectful.

Crosen said she thought a lot about whether to use hot sauce and ultimately decided to do it because they felt that teaching consequences would help their children in the long run, Crosen said.

"We tell our kids, 'We're on the same team, we're trying to help you, we want you to have a good life and for people to like you.' "

As for parents who disapprove, "Walk a mile in my shoes first," Crosen said. "What I'm doing is minor compared to what kids used to get 40 or 50 years ago. One drop of hot sauce is not going to hurt him. Everyone has to do what works for them, within reason."

A mother of two children who relocated to Chevy Chase after a series of moves from Louisiana said the use of hot sauce on children who misbehave is widespread there. She used hot tongue once on her 5-year-old, for biting, and still believes in the practice. But she now says she wouldn't do it "because we can communicate more clearly."

The woman, who insisted on not being identified for this story because she didn't want to be publicly associated with the controversial practice, said that use of hot sauce instills fear and confirms the physical mastery of a parent, which she believes are negative outcomes. But "I need some discipline for egregious acts," she said.

The use of sauce is a last resort, a "worst-case scenario," she said, and should remain so. "As parents, we're all trying to do the best by our children. Hugs go a long way. Kids need lots of love and affection."

She has passed on the advice about hot sauce to friends in her child's play group. Like other parents who use hot sauce, she believes that "hot tongue is more of a threat than actual method" of applying discipline.

But when it is used, hot tongue should never be administered in anger, she added, noting that simply sitting down with a child with the hot sauce bottle in front of them causes the two to talk about the child's misbehavior. The bottle, she said, acts like a prop: "better than a hand or a belt."

She is opposed to spanking. "If I hit my child, how can I tell them not to hit someone else? It's the worst type of discipline," she said.

Carleton Kendrick, a family therapist in Boston, fielded occasional questions about hot sauce when he was resident therapist for the Web site Family Education Network. "Tabasco is the most mainstream iconic punishment in our culture," he said.

Like many people, Kendrick uses the brand name "Tabasco" as a shorthand. Tabasco is the proprietary name of a single brand of sauce, made by the McIlhenny Co. of Avery Island, La. The owners of the company condemn the use of their products for child discipline. In an interview, company president Paul McIlhenny called the practice "strange and scary" and "abusive."

Kendrick says parents who use the technique are "at the very least . . . ill-informed." He pointed out that many parents are not aware that hot sauce can burn a child's esophagus and cause the tongue to swell -- a potential choking hazard.

"There are many different kinds of hot sauce on the market, and parents who say they know the dilution to use so it won't sting, or say they only use one drop, are wrong," Kendrick said. "It's done because it hurts. It stings. It burns. It makes you nauseous."

Capsaicin, the substance that makes peppers hot, inflames membranes in the eyes, nose and mouth. While many adults find this feeling pleasurable, capsaicin can cause negative reactions even in the third of the adult population that has no tolerance for ingesting it, according to Joel Gregory, publisher of Chile Pepper magazine.

There are additional risks for children. Giorgio Kulp, a pediatrician in Montgomery County, said that the risk of swelling as well as the possibility of unknown allergies make the use of hot sauce on children dangerous.

"Every child's reaction, physically, is different," he said, adding that a parent who hears that hot sauce works safely on one child should be wary of using it on another child.

Spanking the Tongue

The hot pepper technique's current popularity is due in part to Whelchel, a former Mickey Mouse Club Mouseketeer and actress who played the character Blair on the television series "The Facts of Life" in the 1980s.

In "Creative Correction," now in its fifth printing, the mother of three provides parents with a variety of tips.

For example, she suggests hiding something a child has failed to put away, to teach the lesson that things left out may disappear. She suggests telling a child who refuses to hold your hand while crossing a street, "I can either hold your hand or hold your hair."

In addition, Whelchel offers the following: "For lying or other offenses of the tongue, I 'spank' my kids' tongues. I put a tiny drop of hot sauce on the end of my finger and dab it onto my child's tongue. It stings for a while, but it abates. (It's the memory that lingers!)"

Whelchel's advice was repeated in an Internet chat in which she participated and then circulated on numerous parenting Web sites and discussion groups.

Whelchel -- who is a motivational speaker on home schooling and other parenting topics -- said in an interview that she wrote the book not as a parenting expert, but "from one mom to another."

She said she used hot sauce on her children when they were 4, 5 and 6 years old. They are now 12, 13 and 14. Although she said it worked well for her family, she is aware that the tactic "can be abused."

She is also aware that when the method is discussed by people who cite her book and by those unfamiliar with the practice, "the qualifiers get lost," such as the age at which hot sauce might be appropriate and the amount of hot sauce to use.

"If there's a mom who shakes the bottle on the kid's tongue, that mom probably does deserve to have someone poking into her business," Whelchel said. "But I think most moms are caring and intuitive. You can't throw out a bunch of good stuff because of the exceptions."

"Creative Correction" provides long lists of scriptural passages that, in Whelchel's view, justify a variety of disciplinary practices.

For example, she quotes the Book of Proverbs -- "The mouth of the righteous brings forth wisdom, but a perverse tongue will be cut out" -- and follows with this suggestion: "A short pinch by a clothespin on the tongue can discourage foul language."

Hot saucing is a topic of debate in some Christian circles.

In 2001, an article in Today's Christian Woman magazine advised parents to use hot sauce on a child's tongue to teach the importance of not talking back. The article offered alternatives, including "yucky-tasting" soap or white vinegar.

But there is wide disagreement even among fundamentalist and evangelical Christians, just as there is among other parents. Some question whether the tongue is the proper target for disciplinary action.

"The tongue doesn't do the lying, the heart does the lying," said Kimmel, the evangelical parenting author. "When you direct a form of discipline to a body part that created the problem, it's like in [other cultures] when they cut off your hand for stealing."

Ken Williams, executive director of Christian Counseling Associates Inc., in Columbia, accepts a connection between lying and the tongue, and allows that the use of hot sauce is "biblically supportable in principle." But "the inordinate pain and cruelty . . . wipes out anything that makes sense."

Other authorities on religious education for children agree. For example, the Christian Homeschool Fellowship on the Web states on a prominent page of its site, "We do not believe that some discipline methods are appropriate -- such as applying hot sauce to the mouths or tongues of children."

Old vs. New

Margaret McGowen of the District, a staff scientist for a trade association and the mother of a 17-month-old, is familiar with the intense feelings about hot sauce. McGowan's mother sauced her tongue when she was 3 and 4 years old, as punishment for telling fibs.

"She told us the devil was dancing on our tongue, and she put a drop of Tabasco on it to drive him away," said McGowen, who grew up in Philadelphia.

McGowen "couldn't connect" the idea of her tongue's getting punished for a lie, though she remembers that "it really did discourage us from fibbing. All I had to do was see the bottle. Even if [my mother] was just using it for cooking or adding it to a recipe, it put fear in me."

McGowen will not pass her saucing experience down to her son.

"I don't need to resort to chemical warfare," she said. Though she does not blame her mother for the punishment "because she was probably ill-informed," McGowen believes that "today we are more educated about the psychology of children."

She still remembers the feeling of hot sauce on her tongue 30 years ago: "It hurt. It burned. It was hard to get rid of the sensation."•

Alison Buckholtz, a Washington area freelance writer, is a frequent contributor to The Post.

Seems this practice is gaining popularity, and the attention of some governments. . .

thought that might add something interesting to the debate.

moonstrucksoul · 08-19-2004, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerclown

Im just curious, what part about timeouts & putting him in his room doesn't work? He won't stay there? Keeps opening the door? I'd see to it that he stayed in his room, that's for sure. A LOUD verbal warning usually results in the door returning to its closed position immediately.

so if he keeps kicking the walls , and thrashing his room, opening the door. what do you do? yell? isn't that the same as a threat, it seems that all it does is teach them to yell back. then what? I feel like it only escalates things.

Cynthetiq · 08-19-2004, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eagle1

We tried tobassco sauce on my son one time when he spouted off. Told him to stick his tongue out and put a couple dabs on his tongue. Stood there for a second and asked for more!

Oh...THAT worked swell!

right.. that would have not worked for me either.

I would have asked for more, vinegar or hotsauce

KellyC · 08-19-2004, 11:35 PM

Oh thats' great! But I wonder if it'll work on bratty 13 year old little brother....?

freeload · 09-07-2004, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KellyC

Oh thats' great! But I wonder if it'll work on bratty 13 year old little brother....?

Could try something a little different. Slice some hot chilli, grab one of your adult magazines....combine those items, leave for brother to find and wait....

That should make him a little more humble - and stay away from your things.

fallenangel · 09-07-2004, 10:58 PM

My parents always used soap on my mouth, gawd that did the trick then, but as if some weird taboo, i have the unfortunate habit of cursing like a sailor now. *blushes* Not often loudly in public, nor in front of elderly people or children though. I do watch what I say to be polite.

Do parents today just write off the whole 'soap' concept? I mean, i got a bar of Ivory in my MOUTH! *shudder* That shut me up for sure :S

freeload · 09-08-2004, 12:34 AM

I remember my big brother getting a nice moutfull of soap. Made both him and me lay of the cursing for a while.

vanblah · 09-08-2004, 08:05 AM

Shakran -

Could you give us an example of an alternative? We've heard from some people that time-outs don't seem to work with their children. My daughter is 3 and time-outs work for her; but I've seen several children her age that don't respond to time-outs.

By time-out I don't mean locking her in her bedroom either ... that would just make her afraid of her bedroom (at this age). We have a designated chair that she must sit in for a few minutes until she calms down. We've been using this tactic ever since she was about 18 months old. At first, it didn't seem to work, but after gently taking her back to the chair several times she eventually got the picture. Of course, that doesn't mean that I haven't raised my voice to her ... but the look of fear on her face when I have yelled is enough to make me never want to do that again. And now, she will put herself in time-out if she starts to throw a temper-tantrum.

So time-outs work great for my daughter ... but they don't seem to work for the original poster's son. You've quoted the Washington Post and you've said that the end result of the Vinegar Option may be psychologically damaging. But you've offered no alternatives.

I agree with your point about "trying to give a child medicine and explaining that it's not punishment when you use food as punishment". That makes perfect sense.

The problem with this kind of advice is that no one thing really works ... and unless you've started one kind of discipline at an early age and STUCK WITH IT nothing seems to work as the kid gets older. I have a feeling that my daughter will "respect" the time-out chair until she's old enough to be sent to her room.

The Phenomenon · 09-09-2004, 12:50 AM

How is this any different from spanking the child? How is this any better?

StrangeAsAngels · 09-09-2004, 09:17 AM

When my daughter was young and acted up, she got a time-out in a specific chair, placed in the corner, her facing the corner. If she got up too many times, she'd then have to sit on the bed in my bedroom for whatever minutes I deemed appropriate for her age. It was usually for like 3 minutes or so because she was only 3 when this particular incident occured.

She'd acted up and wouldn't stay in her time-out chair so I put her on the bed in my room. I closed the door and started timing. She starts crying like she was hurt and was almost hysterical. I couldn't imagine she was that upset but chalked it up to being just that. After a few more seconds of this, I decided she'd hurt herself somehow. As I opened the door, I realized I'd shut her in there with the light off and it was in the evening sometime when this happened. Talk about feeling like a horrible parent! I couldn't believe I did that to her.

adam · 09-09-2004, 04:55 PM

I remember being put in the "thinking chair" as a kid. When I'd done my time and they asked me if I wanted down, I invariably said "No" and refused to say anything else.

Some kids don't respond well to humiliation. I hated it and it remains a bitter, bitter memory with me.

shakran · 09-09-2004, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanblah

Shakran -

Could you give us an example of an alternative? (SNIP)

The problem with this kind of advice is that no one thing really works

Well you hit the nail squarely on the head with that last comment. In fact when I ready your question to me, that's EXACTLY what I was gonna say.

See, I can give you examples all day long. Ground them. Take their bike away. Sell their nintendo (or whatever the hell they're playing these days). Make them do very unpleasant chores (you, boy, go dig a hole big enough to plant that balled 6' pine tree). Fine him. Tons of viable punishments.

You have to tailor the punishment to fit the crime AND the child. Some kids love going to their room, so you wouldn't want to use that as a punishment. Some kids hate being outside so that could be an effective one. It ALL depends on the kid. At the same time, to fit the punishment to the crime, you wouldn't, for example, ground the kid for 3 months because he ran in the house. You likewise wouldn't make him sit in the corner for only 5 minutes because he killed the cat with a circular saw.

There are so many inventive ways to correct a child's behavior that using the same old barbaric ones constantly is not only unnecessary, but is antequated.

Spank the child? What's that teach him? "when someone does something that you don't like, hit him. A lot."

Put hot sauce/foul liquids in his mouth? "bad tasting stuff is punishment. If I make you eat your brocolli, I'm punishing you."

And another DEFINITE terrible punishment is making the kid write sentences. My parents used to do that - 100 lines of "I will not put a snake in mom's bed" or whatever. Well what the hell does that teach the poor kid? "Writing is not fun, and it is a punishment. I don't like writing!" That's just a GREAT way to get the kid enthused about english class isn't it?

09-10-2004, 12:49 AM

Four is an evil age, I like the creative use of vineager. Now that mine are a bit older, I have gotten away from the spanking thing, but use jobs and pushups as "rewards" for bad behavior. I also found that writing sentences is a much hated thing. These have become great options now, but a 4 year old does not have the attention span it takes to write sentences or comprehend the selling of toys.

Ella · 09-10-2004, 01:38 AM

Four may be an evil age in your opinion, but I currently have a four year old who is a little more on the naughty side than her ten year old sister, but I have most definitely never resorted to vinegar (I'm taken aback...really...this is quite a bizzare approach to parenting), or spanking or smacks.

The time-out approach has always worked for me - the thinking chair in the bedroom with the door closed has worked every time.

Then again, I have always brought my children up as individuals who are loved and respected. If your child kicks walls, etc, perhaps there is more to the issue than meets the eye in terms of behavioural problems.

No-one ever said getting parenting right was easy. But vinegar and hot sauce to me is a very wrong approach indeed.

Fallon · 09-16-2004, 02:38 PM

My mother, when I swore, had a jar of powered vitamin C. She'd make a cup of that and force you to sit at the table and drink it until it was done. That had to be the worst tasting stuff that a person could give a 9 year old.
So now, because of that am I a bad child? No.
Do I now fear all forms of medicine? No.
Do I fear my mother now? No.
Each story is different. I could site just as many stories that claim the other side of the story and all that would happen is people would re-affirm to themselves that their belief are better. What works for some, doesn't work for others.
As for myself? I will keep vinegar in mind when my fiancee and I have our children.

DJ Happy · 09-17-2004, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

See, I can give you examples all day long. Ground them. Take their bike away. Sell their nintendo (or whatever the hell they're playing these days). Make them do very unpleasant chores (you, boy, go dig a hole big enough to plant that balled 6' pine tree). Fine him. Tons of viable punishments.

You have to tailor the punishment to fit the crime AND the child.

In instances such as child-rearing, I think a certain level of tolerance for other people's methods is required. You object to vinegar on the tongue, but I object to subjecting a child to hard manual labour as punishment. I don't want my kid to be part of a chain-gang, and to use your argument, I don't want to teach my child that doing chores around the house is punishment for being naughty either.

The last line of yours that I've quoted, in my opinion, should be the one thing that we all take away from this debate. Every kid is different and needs to be raised in a different way. It's up to us as parents and the people who know them the best to decide what that way is.

09-18-2004, 01:15 PM

let's put it this way, we haven't had to use it in a very long time. He is getting better.

shakran · 09-20-2004, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ Happy

In instances such as child-rearing, I think a certain level of tolerance for other people's methods is required. You object to vinegar on the tongue, but I object to subjecting a child to hard manual labour as punishment. I don't want my kid to be part of a chain-gang, and to use your argument, I don't want to teach my child that doing chores around the house is punishment for being naughty either.

The last line of yours that I've quoted, in my opinion, should be the one thing that we all take away from this debate. Every kid is different and needs to be raised in a different way. It's up to us as parents and the people who know them the best to decide what that way is.

A good point about the manual labor, and one I hadn't thought of. Same vein as taste torture really.

05-16-2004, 09:08 AM	#1 (permalink)
:::OshnSoul::: Guest	You want some Vinegar with that? I have a 4 yr. old son and he is going through his most testing stage right now. Many tantrums, hitting, kicking, yelling, etc. One night some friends of ours came over who have a 4 yr. old daughter. The mother said that she has used a tactic that seems to work wonders for the daughter. Although she's never had to give her any, she told me that vinegar is the cure. So, I tested it on my son one night when he was beyond time-out for misbehaving. I thought- Vinegar! So we found the bottle, got a spoon, and fed him just a dab of it. Oh, that did not make him happy. Of course he asked for water afterwards, and we said No, so that he would get the full effect of what the vinegar was for. It seemed to work fairly well. He sat on the couch without saying a word after I asked him to or else he would get more vinegar. We've given it to him several times already, but it's becoming more effective every time. Of course, talking with them is still a wonderful, healthy tactic as well, but when all else fails, open your kitchen cabinet and grab a spoon. I've even just used my finger, since he tends to fight from my arm. So, I thought I'd pass on this harmless tactic to others who may have a child who acts out.

06-29-2004, 06:16 PM	#8 (permalink)
lady Addict Location: Vancouver, BC	My mom used a bit of liquid soap or tabasco sauce on our tongues or lips when we said "bad words". __________________ Our doubts are traitors, And make us lose the good we oft might win By fearing to attempt.

06-30-2004, 11:05 AM	#10 (permalink)
eagle1 Insane Location: Foothills of the Cascade Mtns.	We tried tobassco sauce on my son one time when he spouted off. Told him to stick his tongue out and put a couple dabs on his tongue. Stood there for a second and asked for more! Oh...THAT worked swell! __________________ "My wife is a sex object. Everytime I ask for sex, she objects."

06-30-2004, 07:04 PM	#12 (permalink)
snoop Insane	Never heard of this one . . . I'll give it a try and report back S __________________ ------------------------------------------------ Insert Witty Slogan Here . . . . .

08-19-2004, 11:35 PM	#24 (permalink)
KellyC Comment or else!! Location: Home sweet home	Oh thats' great! But I wonder if it'll work on bratty 13 year old little brother....? __________________ Him: Ok, I have to ask, what do you believe? Me: Shit happens.

05-17-2004, 04:02 PM	#2 (permalink)
la petite moi Filling the Void. Location: California	That's great! (Sorry, I'm 18 and on Tilted Parenting! I just love your stories, Oshn!)

05-18-2004, 10:37 AM	#3 (permalink)
:::OshnSoul::: Guest	I avoid any physical punishment (although I don't even call it punishment, because that is defining right from wrong). But vinegar is a harmless, yet effective way to let your child know that there are indeed consequences for their actions. Although I don't teach him of right and wrong, i must guide him with actions & consequences. I won't just let him do as he wishes- to an extent, but I always give him options and point out the potential consequences of each.

05-18-2004, 01:56 PM	#4 (permalink)
MXL Tilted Location: Maryland	My son and daughter have been smothering there spinach, french fries etc. in vinegar since they were probably about 4, and my son has been eating Marmite (ask a Brit or Aussie) since he was 3. It would never work with my kids, but it can't hurt to try.

05-27-2004, 01:18 PM	#5 (permalink)
stldickie Addict	Vinegar is a parents friend...I've found it 100% effective for Little Kid Smartmouth

06-01-2004, 07:03 AM	#6 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	While you're at it, try apple cider vinegar. Not only is it harmless, it helps cholesterol levels I am glad to hear that someone has found a harmless way to discipline a child. Too often, I hear of beatings or total lack of discipline. Another one that my mom found works is a soft-soled slipper to the ass. Stings like a bitch for just long enough to remind the kid that he's getting punished for acting up, yet leaves no mark, no bruise, and causes no damage.

06-17-2004, 04:12 AM	#7 (permalink)
sashime76 Addict Location: Hoosier State	Hmmm, who would have thought of using vinegar this way? I need to forward this info to my wife, who is about 99.9% against smacking bottoms and slapping hands. Our 3 year old can get very naughty at times. Thanks for the tip. sashime76

06-29-2004, 06:27 PM	#9 (permalink)
shakran Tone.	I'll be the lone dissenter here and say that I don't think this is a very good disciplinary method. In the first place you're associating force feeding the kid foul tasting liquid in a spoon with bad behavior. Have fun explaining that he's not misbehaving the next time he needs cough syrup. In the second place, what ever happened to discipline that did not involve physical punishment?

06-30-2004, 12:23 PM	#11 (permalink)
Stare At The Sun Eh? Location: Somewhere over the rainbow	While i'm no psych major, i will agree with Shakran and say that I do not believe this is good for the child. Honestly, I don't see how its any different than putting your child in a closet. Your child may end up having a taste aversion to all things vinegar for the rest of its life, as well as a subconcious fear of you feeding him. Especially if it happends often.

07-01-2004, 03:25 PM	#14 (permalink)
:::OshnSoul::: Guest	thank you for sharing your opinion, shakran.

07-01-2004, 04:05 PM	#16 (permalink)
shakran Tone.	I never said they don't need punishment. I said they don't need foul-tasting liquids shoved down their throat. There's a difference

07-01-2004, 05:41 PM	#17 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	Curious. Really, if the child is having a real tantrum deserving of punishment, how do you calm him down enough to stick a spoon of anything in his mouth? Sit on his chest? Headlock? Full-Nelson? Tranquilizers? Bad idea imo. Seems unnecessary, if the child is calm enough to open up and swallow. I guess Im nitpicking, but Im with the dissenters here. Just throw him in his room, close the door, and warn him not to come out til he's ready to behave. Repeat as often as necessary. Works with us. (For now...lol)

09-07-2004, 10:58 PM	#26 (permalink)
fallenangel soaring Location: near the water	My parents always used soap on my mouth, gawd that did the trick then, but as if some weird taboo, i have the unfortunate habit of cursing like a sailor now. blushes Not often loudly in public, nor in front of elderly people or children though. I do watch what I say to be polite. Do parents today just write off the whole 'soap' concept? I mean, i got a bar of Ivory in my MOUTH! shudder That shut me up for sure :S __________________ all I wanna do is - give the best of me to you

09-08-2004, 12:34 AM	#27 (permalink)
freeload Done freeloading here Location: on my ass :) - Norway	I remember my big brother getting a nice moutfull of soap. Made both him and me lay of the cursing for a while.

09-08-2004, 08:05 AM	#28 (permalink)
vanblah Junkie	Shakran - Could you give us an example of an alternative? We've heard from some people that time-outs don't seem to work with their children. My daughter is 3 and time-outs work for her; but I've seen several children her age that don't respond to time-outs. By time-out I don't mean locking her in her bedroom either ... that would just make her afraid of her bedroom (at this age). We have a designated chair that she must sit in for a few minutes until she calms down. We've been using this tactic ever since she was about 18 months old. At first, it didn't seem to work, but after gently taking her back to the chair several times she eventually got the picture. Of course, that doesn't mean that I haven't raised my voice to her ... but the look of fear on her face when I have yelled is enough to make me never want to do that again. And now, she will put herself in time-out if she starts to throw a temper-tantrum. So time-outs work great for my daughter ... but they don't seem to work for the original poster's son. You've quoted the Washington Post and you've said that the end result of the Vinegar Option may be psychologically damaging. But you've offered no alternatives. I agree with your point about "trying to give a child medicine and explaining that it's not punishment when you use food as punishment". That makes perfect sense. The problem with this kind of advice is that no one thing really works ... and unless you've started one kind of discipline at an early age and STUCK WITH IT nothing seems to work as the kid gets older. I have a feeling that my daughter will "respect" the time-out chair until she's old enough to be sent to her room.

09-09-2004, 12:50 AM	#29 (permalink)
The Phenomenon Psycho Location: I think my horns are coming out	How is this any different from spanking the child? How is this any better?

09-09-2004, 09:17 AM	#30 (permalink)
StrangeAsAngels Upright Location: Right over there.......	When my daughter was young and acted up, she got a time-out in a specific chair, placed in the corner, her facing the corner. If she got up too many times, she'd then have to sit on the bed in my bedroom for whatever minutes I deemed appropriate for her age. It was usually for like 3 minutes or so because she was only 3 when this particular incident occured. She'd acted up and wouldn't stay in her time-out chair so I put her on the bed in my room. I closed the door and started timing. She starts crying like she was hurt and was almost hysterical. I couldn't imagine she was that upset but chalked it up to being just that. After a few more seconds of this, I decided she'd hurt herself somehow. As I opened the door, I realized I'd shut her in there with the light off and it was in the evening sometime when this happened. Talk about feeling like a horrible parent! I couldn't believe I did that to her.

09-09-2004, 04:55 PM	#31 (permalink)
adam Insane	I remember being put in the "thinking chair" as a kid. When I'd done my time and they asked me if I wanted down, I invariably said "No" and refused to say anything else. Some kids don't respond well to humiliation. I hated it and it remains a bitter, bitter memory with me.

09-10-2004, 12:49 AM	#33 (permalink)
Diamond Guest	Four is an evil age, I like the creative use of vineager. Now that mine are a bit older, I have gotten away from the spanking thing, but use jobs and pushups as "rewards" for bad behavior. I also found that writing sentences is a much hated thing. These have become great options now, but a 4 year old does not have the attention span it takes to write sentences or comprehend the selling of toys.

09-10-2004, 01:38 AM	#34 (permalink)
Ella Ella Bo Bella Location: Australia	Four may be an evil age in your opinion, but I currently have a four year old who is a little more on the naughty side than her ten year old sister, but I have most definitely never resorted to vinegar (I'm taken aback...really...this is quite a bizzare approach to parenting), or spanking or smacks. The time-out approach has always worked for me - the thinking chair in the bedroom with the door closed has worked every time. Then again, I have always brought my children up as individuals who are loved and respected. If your child kicks walls, etc, perhaps there is more to the issue than meets the eye in terms of behavioural problems. No-one ever said getting parenting right was easy. But vinegar and hot sauce to me is a very wrong approach indeed. __________________ "Afterwards, the universe will explode for your pleasure."

09-16-2004, 02:38 PM	#35 (permalink)
Fallon Junkie Location: RI	My mother, when I swore, had a jar of powered vitamin C. She'd make a cup of that and force you to sit at the table and drink it until it was done. That had to be the worst tasting stuff that a person could give a 9 year old. So now, because of that am I a bad child? No. Do I now fear all forms of medicine? No. Do I fear my mother now? No. Each story is different. I could site just as many stories that claim the other side of the story and all that would happen is people would re-affirm to themselves that their belief are better. What works for some, doesn't work for others. As for myself? I will keep vinegar in mind when my fiancee and I have our children.

09-18-2004, 01:15 PM	#37 (permalink)
:::OshnSoul::: Guest	let's put it this way, we haven't had to use it in a very long time. He is getting better.