triad

I've been more or less casually seeking 'enlightenment' for the past several years. I've read some articles on the different philosophies and then read some zen koans but more for entertainment then enlightenment. Enlightenment is definatly something I'd like to persue, but is there any one place where there is a comprehensive amount of information? I'm still trying to grasp exactly what it is, but the more I learn the more I want to attain it.

Any suggestions on how to go about attaining it will be greatly appretiated.

Thanks,
Triad

(I know alread posted this, but it was at the end of a thread that it really wasn't too related to.)

sexymama

Look inside yourself.

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If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god

It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

gpws

or rather get out of the way of yourself.
accept your limits. learn humility.
contemplate the complexity of nature and limits of reason.
ponder the frailty of human nature.
consider the pain of others.
when you look inside yourself consider that others are also looking for the same peace you seek.

CSflim

Learn to speak a lot without actually saying anything.

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anti fishstick

the irony is all that information probably won't do a thing. as sexymama said, look inside yourself. it is an internal source, not external and zen koans, studying buddhism, taoism, whatever are all external things.

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And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
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filtherton

Stop trying so hard. Go to the source. Find a zen center and get your zen on.

triad

Thank you, do you have any advice on how to proceed from there though? I know that in general I need to get more in touch with myself though it seems that the harder I try the less I know myself. I've heard that both meditation and LSD both go a long ways toward that end, and since LSD is pretty much out of the question do you have any tips for learning how to meditate?

Once again, thank you,
-Triad

bermuDa

drugs can help you learn more about yourself, but again that's an external source.

I prefer not to think of enlightenment as knowledge, but rather a contentment with not knowing. This is my lazy answer, because it doesn't actually require me to do anything

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TheKak

Meditation is basically an emptying of your mind. Basic meditation usually starts with something to focus on. Keep one simple, peaceful image in your head and focus on ONLY it. Basically its watching yourself from the inside. Don't let your mind wander, keep it focused only on the image. After some practice you can get rid of the image and have an empty mind, thinking of nothing conciously. My Tai Chi instructor refered to the average person having a "monkey mind", meaning their mind jumps around with no control over thought, and that meditation is exactly the opposite. If you need a book though, I would recommend some of the books by the Dhali Lama, such as The Art of Happiness (its a non-religious book with great insight into happiness, and a good place to start if you are on the road to enlightenment).

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triad

Thanks, thekak, I'll check that book out. Do you know of any sites on the web which have similar insights?

:::OshnSoul:::

stole part of my answer.

also, do a lot of observing, less talking, less seeking.
observe your thoughts, your actions, as well as events and actions and words of others.

there are plenty of books to read that are tremendously enlightening, check here:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...ighlight=books

rsl12

meditation was my path to enlightenment. one ez method: sit, lay down, get comfortable. don't think of anything except counting your breaths---1...2...3... when you get to 10, start all over at one again. repeat.

hard to explain what you get out of meditation--try it on a regular basis and see if it does anything for you...

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:::OshnSoul:::

^^^ ya, in any way you feel comfortable, relaxed, and undisturbed. THere is no 'proper' way to meditate. Just remember that it is the escaping & cleansing of your mind. Reaching into the depths of your very essence. Silence is the key.

irateplatypus

look outside yourself.

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~ Winston Churchill

Ustwo

Before enlightenment, chop wood, pour water.

After enlightenment, chop wood, pour water.

Its something I think you find by living, not by thinking, or in meditation, not thinking.

I think of it as accepting life for what it is, and accepting that your time is limited.

I don't think its something you can seek directly, nor is there a set path to find it.

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tisonlyi

There's an awful lot of Bhuddas in here...

*cough*

Get thee to a Zen-ery.

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KellyC

Accepting the Four Noble Truths and follow the Eight Folds Path?

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Thagrastay

Sell everything you own, give all your money to the poor, pick up your cross and follow Jesus.

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Lebell

Be still.

Listen.

Know there is God.



(great postings, everyone)

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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:::OshnSoul:::

^^^

orphen

hmm..since most people before me have pointed you to a eastern phiosophical standpoint of introspectiion, i guess i can point out a few western possibility::: there are several paths in my opinion with the major phisophers of the west... you can go for the good o' aristolian type of life. live life with a medium (never the extreme) as virtue and so on and maybe just as aristotle said, you will find "flourishing". Or you can follow Kant. using the catagorical empirative (can't spell..sigh) you can discover how to act upon the maxim of moral laws. maybe by living with strict logical principles and duties you will find enlightenment. If THAT doen't work, maybe you can adopt utilitarianism and follow Mill's greatest happiness principle. Essentially ask yoursefl if your action will make the most amount of people happy while restrcting the amount of grief. Well these are only three choices from the major western philosophers, i'm sure you'll find something right for you. try reading:: "The Great Conversation" by Melchert . it may give you some insight on what pepole in the past of have done to cope with this question

Seer666

There is one simple phrase that puts it all into perspective I think.
"Think for yourself, shmuck!"

That, and don't eat hotdog buns on Fridays.

Hail Eris

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Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

Seer666

On more note, I've noticed a lot of mention on meditation. GREAT stuff. If you want a good book to explain it, Crowley's Book 4. The first chapter is meditaion with the mystic mumbo jumbo stiped out. Nice and clean, A+B=C. The rest of the book is just about worthless, but that first chapter, solid gold.

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Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

:::OshnSoul:::

Or a future bumper sticker of mine:
"Think outside of the box. Be yourself".

Seer666

I want to be differnt, just like everybody else........

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Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

tisonlyi

I think you should read the books on Zen by Alan Watts.

Well, the re-writing of Zen texts in a way that is understandable to a western mind, by Alan Watts.

Enlightenment in the context the thread started out with is the buddhist/hinduist ridding oneself of the fruitless desires and unnecessary sufferings of this existence, gradually moving towards our true 'buddha' nature - Nirvana/Nibhana.

Amazon Link: Alan W Watts - The Way Of Zen

Thats where I started out, you'll probably progress to a few other of Watts' works before plucking up the gumption to head into D.T. Suzuki's works.

I'd check the libraries out. If they have anything on buddhism, they should have some of Alan Watts'and D.T. Suzuki's work.

Well, if you're still interested.

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"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

MojoRisin

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom

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pig

Hmmm...I think that a presription for a "path to enlightenment" is something you can talk around, but never actually hit. You can give guideposts, but that's it. And every time you think you've got it, you realize you just lost it. That's my take anyway.

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:::OshnSoul:::

What about the Zen Masters, Buddhists, Hinduists, and such who are "enlightened" and live an "enlightened" life? I have gained much from enlightened ones, both that I know and ones I don't.
The feel and sense through their feelings- the voice of their Soul. Intuitive knowledge and wisdom, along with patience and living in silence brings them clarity- and enlightenment. There is no perfect way to describe it or instruct it into words, although many through books, speech, etc. have found ways to express it both written and verbally. It's simply that you know. Not that you think you know, or that you believe, but you truly feel it, without a question or doubt.

Amarth

This post is kind of funny. I'm sure if you said this to someone who actually /was/ an authority on the issue, they'd slap you silly. I'm not talking about a scholar type figure, I'm talking about a monk type one. People spend their entire lives doing nothing /but/ seeking enlightenment, so I doubt it's very plausable to casually find it. I'm trying not to be mean since I can't know that much about you just by reading this post, but this question does irk me a bit. However, I wish you the best of luck on your quest. (*Sigh* I guess the fact that your quest caused anger in me doesn't say much for my own mental discipline.)

Now, for a little bit of what I think you may be looking for. I've stolen most of this from a book called "The way of the peaceful warrior." It's an awesome book and one of those ones that could change your life, so I definately reccomend reading it.

Back to the topic.

For one thing, as many people have said, empty your mind. Most of what I've read on the topic parallels enlightenment with the idea of satori. Satori is simply turning down your mental volume to the point of muting it. Shut your head up.

Also, discipline is important. It's not that discipline in itself is the key to enlightenment, but through discipline you can learn to separate what is truly important from that which seems important. I reccomend quitting all drug type habits and trying a strict diet and excercise regiment.

Mediation is important. Everyone else has spoken plenty on that though.

Literature is not in itself the answer, but it can guide you. Think if I wanted you to look at the moon. I would point to the moon and you would first look at my finger. Then, you could follow it, and eventually look at the moon for yourself. I've always loved this analogy.

For what enlghtenment is, I have a very good story:
A man had been seeking enlightenment for many decades. He had learned much and felt he was almost there, but he still didn't know exactly what enlightenment was. One day, he was walking through the woods and saw a hermit walking along carrying two buckets of water tied to each end of a long rod across his back. Somehow the man knew that this hermit had the answers he needed. He approached him. "Um excuse me sir, but could you tell me what enlightenment is like?" The hermit put down the weight of his water and stood to his full height, unburdened. The man burst into tears of joy and exlaimed "Yes! I get it now! Thank you kind sir! One more quick question... what is life like after enlightenment?" The hermit picked his water back up, and continued his journey down the trail. (Okay, I'm sure I didn't tell it exactly right, but I think you'll get the just of it.)

auntflo5

The path to enlightenment should not be a goal, rather it should take on the tone of not knowing how to get there. In my own experience, once I had thought I had gotten to the point of no return, I get the rug pulled from underneith me, and had to start from the beginning again... this happening over and over, I then learned the lesson of not to put any effort into it.

In a sense, the beginning to me is where I actually find where the truth lies. The beginning meaning the "here and now", the "Is" of the various "ism's" that the consensus and doctrines chose to attach themselves to.

I realize that pushing myself towards the goal actually is a deterrent. And when you are "there", you need no motivation to explain it. When you are there, you actually realize everyone else is there also. Which means there is no real need to persuade and push the others to the goal, because we are all sentient, enlightened beings. Its just the tricks of humanity that prevent people from really seeing the precious gift and owning it as their own personal mantra.

On suggestions of different ways to get "there", just exist and be truthful to yourself. Know your limitations of being in a human body and start creating a deep sense of wonder, joy, and compassion for existing ailments and limitations.

Many peep's find the flash of insight when walking through a grocery store. I began my journey by practicing mindfulness existence. Walking in the morning to work in Japan, breathing in the cool air, feeling the breeze on my face... hearing th birds singing with the rustling leaves... hearing my breath, listening for the cars trying to run me down when I am this state of tranquility... even then, a smile and then the wave, or even a thank you for them taking the time out of their day to test my beingness. The great part about being mindful is that it can be done 24/7, and no one even knows that you are doing it... they might ask what pills you've been poppin' however, but when you tell them its free, their egos chime in and they ask you how they can get some of that shit.
...then they ask you how to do it. that's where the problem lies.

...actually forget everything I have said actually. the true answer lies when you are on the toilet while you are taking a poop... I honestly have never been so close to God in my whole life.

"if you see a buddha, kill her."

Unright

Why are you so impatient to get to your destination, when the pleasure lies in the journey?

Take pleasure out of life..

ARTelevision

You already have it.
Stop trying to attain it.

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KellyC

Care to elaborate this further for those who are dim Art??

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Him: Ok, I have to ask, what do you believe?
Me: Shit happens.

SinisterMotives

Yes, we all have it, but it's not readily accessible to the untrained. Meditation is useful, but I've found that those moments where time stands still, or when I felt the Presence, usually ocurred when I wasn't even looking for them.

Also, there is no pinnacle of enlightenment - only successive plateaus throughout life. Enlightenment can be thought of as a moment when your entire being, all of your experiences, converge. Hence, what worked for you ten years ago won't work today because you're not the same person now that you were then.

EDIT: spelling

Unright

Forgot to mention, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is a good book that shows what exactly enlightenment is and how it can be sought after in a more western environment.

roachboy

it does not seem to me that"enlightenment" is a place or thing--i dont think you get to a "there" and say ah yes, now i am enlightened. nor do i think that you grab it like a dress on a rack.


there is only process.
you never arrive anywhere.


same sort of business would obtain for the empty-mind...what exactly does that mean?
why would you necessarily have to sit to get to it?
sitting is one way.
there are others.


and what makes you think you would want enlightenment, if such a thing existed?
do you think being able to "see" would make your life easier?
why would you think that?
what if "it" burns?
and what if what "it" burns through includes your relationships with people around you, for example?

or do you think that it would be a kind of merit badge you could show your friends at parties? hey look...you did the ham radio jamboree, you did chopping wood, i did enlightenment.....what if you are wrong?

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it make you sick.

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CoachAlan

ARTelevision is right. The peace you seek is already within you. Consider the few precious moments during which you have total clarity. The rare times when it seems all the stars have aligned and all is right in the world. The moments you felt the hand of God upon you. The vision you had of your oneness with the universe.

"There are many paths to the top of Mt. Fuji, but there is only one summit."

Those moments, whatever your belief system, are what you're trying to achieve with enlightenment/awakening. When the bad stuff comes, embrace it, try to find out where it's coming from and understand it. That way you can better handle it in the future or prevent it all together. When the good stuff comes, embrace it, try to find out where it's coming from and understand it. That way you can help to bring it about again in yourself and others.

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Zdragva

Yes, i would say enlightenment totally dpends on you alone. Buddha found it, they say, but no one knows what. all that is known is that he went seeking, he found, and those he spoke with were profoundly touched by his honesty and clarity. I would say only you know what it is you seek. perhaps enlightenment is simply the dedication of ones life to the search, perhaps not. I believe in becoming one with body and spirit, i believe totally that the mind can command the body totally, i also believe the human mind to be capable of things that should be impossible. I search too, I study science, hard, but i dont go to uni or have any qualifications i could compare with others. personally im not sure either dude, about my life or my destiny etc. what i am sure about is the questions i cannot answer and that I seek, almost violently within myself continously. you cannot explain this too others, they probably experiance it too tho. My quest, i have no idea, i may die knowing little, and having little power, but no matter where or when it ends my life will always be a search for these answers i know this. im not saying im a buddhist or enlightened or anything like that. all im saying is to search is no bad thing, ur in great company (not me but the greats of the past) and if u die and have imparted one grain of furthar knowledge or peacefull understanding into others then im sure ull be well remembered