MojoRisin

I don't believe in any god.

I do believe that there exists something in the sort of a creator. I put that very loosely because it is, no doubt, beyond comprehension. None the less, a universe of simple elements has come to represent everything about our existence.

Whats that got to do with music?

A universe of simple elements composed to things as beautiful as the human form, the rising of the sun, sex, drugs, rock and roll. Music, 12 pitches create all (western culture for the past few hundred years) all songs. To experience music honestly and passionately is to know what "God" was thinking when great things are created. Inspiration is divine. Music reveals our true nature. I emphasize music over other arts because it is non-imagerial. The ideas of art are an essential part of what should be the human race's biggest priority, the pursuit of real truth, of freedom and true understanding. Why does this not happen? Because also through music is the "Birth of Tragedy" as Nietzsche put it. We see that all beautiful creations never truely exist as they all come to an inevitable death. Either can happen at any moment and so we, as in the human race, are living in a world of fear. You have to choose freedom or live in fear. True music is always in the process of creation and so it is free. When there is music, there is no room for fear.

If there are any good writers out there who know what I'm trying to say please feel free to clear some of that up. I am stoned after all.

:: cue Beethoven's 9th ::

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raeanna74

Music is very mathematical. It can reflect the mathematical patterns found in nature so well.

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tiberry

Holy Crap Wicked!!! I've ALWAYS thought along those lines regarding music, how it feels to truly immerse yourself into it and the feelings it causes! I've even tried to strike up a few conversations about it, but I've not yet found anyone that feels (or will admit they feel) the same way. I'm listening to music right now as a matter of fact.

I'll probably post more on this thread later when I have more time, but let me start off down the path...

I think every human being lives for the "experience" of living. That's my answer to "What is the meaning of life?" - to experience. Simple right? I'm especially drawn to music as it seems to amplify the intensity of a particular feeling or experience...sort of pushes or pulls me along through incredibly detailed thoughts so intense I literally "feel" them, its very hard to explain in words. What's more - I can actively change my mood or state of mind just by listening to a particular song or piece of music. Its almost like a drug to me.

I find what raeanna said very interesting too - that music can be expressed or described mathmatically. Somewhere in the "equation of the universe" I think that holds special significance, I just can't put my finger on it though. What's more, besides the mathmatical property of the rythm and layers of melodies, chords, and notes there are often words superimposed. Lyrics (at least most of the time) are used to express feelings in human terms or "tell a story" which often allows the listener to experience what the singer is feeling.

Bottom line - music is the language of the universe.

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rsl12

music is very cool. pythagoras had all sorts of ideas regarding your topic, you should check him out.

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tiberry

See what I mean? Only 3 replies...I think there are only a few who feel this deep connection to music. Most folks seem too afraid to let go and admit it or they just don't "feel" on that level.

Oh well - Here are some 'catchy' lyrics for the occaision, can you name the artist?

Push me away, make me fall
Just to see another side of me

Push me away, you can't see
what I see, the other side of me


- Its nice to be me.....


-

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SiphonX

gotta agree too, music is amazing. it's a universal language and every1 can relate to it. i know exactly what you're talking about.

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MojoRisin

Hooray for tiberry After only one reply for a while I figured everyone thought I was nuts(possible). Anyway, tiberry you MUST read Nietzsche's "The Birth of Tragedy Through the Spirit of Music". As for everyone else give us your opinion! Nietzsche believed that the western philosophy of life has been trumped since the great days of the greeks. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle all held the belief that the arts were trivial representations of the driving force of the universe. They kept the two manifestations of art seperate, that is, the Dionysian and Apollian spirit. Apollo was the god of sculpture and represented the side of art,aesthetically beautiful, logical, and clearly represented. Dionysus was the god of music and represented the raw inspiration, intoxication and pure energetic powers of art. The Dionysian spirit has begun to surface past few century's and Janet Jackson seems to think its time for it to take over

tiberry, what music do you like? what instruments do you play?

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tiberry

Well - Generally speaking, I like all types of music - but I'm not too keen on Rap or Country...my taste spans all the way from classical guitar and piano to Metallica and Avril Lavigne - pretty broad range.

I play guitar, and play 'with' drums and piano...

What about everyone else?

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Ustwo

I feel the same way!

About fly fishing.

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MojoRisin

Hmm?

Explain.

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Yakk

Not quite, from my weak and pitiful knowledge of music theory. =)

Given a base frequency, the notes around it are defined in "low integer multiples" of that frequency.

So you might have
1/2 Base Freq
2/3 Base Freq
3/5 Base Freq
3/4 Base Freq
Base Freq
5/4 Base Freq
4/3 Base Freq
3/2 Base Freq
5/3 Base Freq
7/4 Base Freq
2/1 Base Freq

Even an untrained ear can here these small integer multiples.

Going from a base frequency, to twice that frequency, is an 'octave'.

Given a base frequency and an octave, you have one set of notes.

If you select another note in that octave, then base a new set of notes off that new note, you get a new octave of completely different notes. Not one note is exactly the same.

So, you start with a set of notes (say 12), but you end up with 12*12 different 'real' notes as you change (I think it is called key).

The piano is often tuned differently, not using small integer multiples. Which is why you never want to start someone's musical training on the piano, apparently.

Note: my knowledge here is pretty damn sketchy, could be full of holes. But, I find the mathematical and physical basis of music quite interesting: musical notes aren't arbitrary or magical, they actually are part of a legacy of mathematics that goes back thousands of years.

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

MojoRisin

Yes, technically there are an infinite number of musical notes. But that would be a bit too much info for our brains to process. This is a bit off the topic but we do only use twelve notes that is:
A, A#/Ab, B, C, C#/Db, D, D#/Eb, E, F, F#/Gb, G, G#/Ab
They occur in different octaves at multipes of their frequency and are the same note. A 'key' starts with a base note and follows allong a given pattern through this series of 12 to come up with a key. All keys are rearrangements of these 12 notes, there are infinitely more, but they aren't neccisary.

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Seer666

Music... How to put it.
I've long viewed music as the life line to my sanity. Not in the creation part, as I have no musical talent, but in the enjoyment and the ability to relate with another human being so compleatly in such a short time. The combination of lyrics and notes, mixed together in such a chilling way as to relate a part of your past back to you, though they have never met you, or to relate a part of their past to you, though you have never met them. Or, on rare occasions, when a really talented artist comes along and does both, showing that there IS some one else in this world who, even though they have walked a differnt path than you, understands you pain/fear/hate/joy/love/happyness. When there is nothing else in this world to hold my attention, when I care not if the person that lives next door to me drops dead, I still know that I can pull out a CD or turn on the radio, and there, somewhere in the world, is a person who understands me and whom I can understand in return. If there is no other proof of God, this alone could make me a believer.

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Varese

fuckin A, man. Music is divine. Kurt Vonnegut once said "Music, for me, is proof of the supernatural."

Have you ever thought about how ethereal, mysterious, and incredibly coincidental music is? that different combinations of simple tones can do. Born into a society that crams music and noise down people's throats constantly, it can be difficult to think what it must be like for a person who has never heard music before to experience it for the first time. That, I think, would be the most spiritual experience a human could have.

wow. just think with me for a minute... do you know what im sayin?

tiberry

Wow - its just amazing to me how few folks hit this thread and can relate to it. Its just one of those things that you either get or you don't...

I'm going to go WAY out on a limb here and say that it seems to me that people that "think on a higher level" (that's not meant to be insulting, BTW) seem to be more into music. I certainly don't mean those that think mathematically or scientifically - I mean those who just seem to "really get it". Its very hard to describe, but if you "get it" you just do...

I'm really glad to see that I'm not some kook all alone in thinking like this...

I can actually change my moods with music...not just superficially, I mean really change them. Most folks seem to listen to music that describes the mood their in, I listen to music that PUTS me in the mood I WANT to be in. Anyone else do that??

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My life's work is to bridge the gap between that which is perceived by the mind and that which is quantifiable by words and numbers.

MojoRisin

"Oh bliss, bliss and heaven. Oh it was georgeousness and georgeosity made flesh. It was like a bird of rarest spun heaven metal, or like silvery wine flowing in a spaceship gravity all nonsense now as I slooshed it I knew such pretty pictures."

- From 'A Clockwork Orange' the character Alex De Large, on Beethoven's 9th symphony.


It's sad for me to think that there are people who will never understand this. Above all things in this world I wish only to see this tragic, beautiful experience shared. It is a testament to our divine will and it ascends past morality and the superstition of logicians.

Here is a translated passage of Beethoven's 9th symphony, 4th movement, the text was originally written in german by Friedrich Schiller. The music is what is most significant but perhaps reading this translation will give some people a little insight, as most are bound to this plastic world and way of thinking.

"Joy, Oh ! divine scintillation
Sparkling from Elysium,
With a cheerful animation
Goddess, to thy shrine we come

These our nations once divided
Now your magic spells unite,
Where your wing does beat around them
Brotherhood and love delight

With a kiss bestowed on millions
Embraced in fraternity,
Let us build a world of union
And peace for all humanity"

Also I will add a line from Nietzsche who sums up this point best by saying "We shall have gained much for the science of aesthetics, once we perceive not merely by logical inference, but with the immediate certainty of vision.."

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Seer666

I do both. Sometimes I wish to change my mood, and music does that for me, or sometimes I simply wish to find something that matched the mood I am already in. And I wouldn't say it's people that "think on a higher level". More like, it seems, some people can just think wit their heart and feel with their mind. It's more of a form of empathy, I think, then thought, though some songs are very Intellectual. Saul Williams comes to mind for that one. I like music like that. Makes you think as well as feel.

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archpaladin

I agree completely. I think that effective musicians have to be particularly capable of this, and get both the heart and mind going at the same time, to get out the music they do.

It makes me wonder if this is something that people can train, or if it has to be something that a person is born with.

Seer666

I think you can train yourself for it. You can also train yourself out of it. Music has been one of the way's I've tried to break my years and years of "training" at being an apathetic bastard. Captin Asshole, as JimmytheHut some of my other old friends used to call me. Course, I am still an asshole, just a more empathetic one.

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OFKU0

Yeah, starts with the mind, triggers the heartstrings for whatever emotion desired, then one just has to hope they don't get to caught up in the moment and lose sight of the direction, that being a player.

I think some people are more talented than others. That doesn't always make someone with less talent a lesser musician. Creativity along with ones influences in life contribute greatly to what someone has to offer sonically.

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jdjammer

I have always wondered if other animals enjoy or care about music. But then again, other animals probably don't "care" about anything. I have wondered if my music annoys my dog, or whether she just doesn't care about it. Sorry if this is off topic..

ishkeb

First off, I understand what everyone's saying. Music can change my moods. There are songs that I avoid listening to because they make me depressed 100% of the time, and other songs that I love listening to because they make me feel like I'm at peace with the world. I remember what music was playing during most major events of my life. If there wasn't any playing, I remember what song I had stuck in my head. If I'm performing or just playing and everything clicks, I'll be giddy for days afterward.

Has anyone ever thought about why certain music makes people feel certain ways? Does a minor chord sound sad/scary because that's the nature of a minor chord or because we've been programmed to think it does? I think it's the latter. Some music I regard as joyous would just sound chaotic to others. Some older classical works, specifically I'm thinking Russian ones, have titles that would imply they were happy songs, but are in a minor key.

The problem with seeing the emotional response to music as a learned one is that it makes music feel much less magical. If humans are trained to react, then music isn't some mysterious force. It's just a way of us tricking ourselves to feel an emotion.

When I work through this problem with my brain, that's the conclusion I reach. But my heart still tells me otherwise (I apologize for that corny sentence). This has bothered me for a while, and I've found no way to reconcile my two different viewpoints. Anyone want to help?

The same argument can be made with visual art and even the human form. A "beautiful woman" of 15 years ago looks different than one now. But this thread is about music. Anyway, thanks for reading, and I hope most of that made sense.

Seer666

You made a lot of sense. Yes, I think somethings are "programed" into us. I mean, was green really a creepy color until Stephen King came along? While the minor effects of it, IE minor chord, etc, are the programed effect, what is the CAUSE? No matter what the chord it is in, why does music effect people so much? It's a lauguage in and of itself, I think. Like all lauguages, it has evolved over the years, so what sounded great back in the day might sound kind of hooky now. Just read an old Superman comic and you'll understand what I mean. "Golly gee Superman!" I'm going a bit off track here, aren't I?

Back to the point. How is it, that a bunch of sounds, strung together in a certine way, can say more to some people then a 5000 page book? I don't know, but I think, in a way to bring those two points together, that the lauguage itself is felt, but the dialect we use is the learned part.

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animosity

For some reason i dont get into the lyrics of a song... I only hear the intruments.. i constantly listen to music . I can not sleep with out it. music drives me, makes me want to get up in the morning and go to sleep at night.

CSflim

Check out this incredible piece of music. I was very impressed. It is a fine example of algorithmic music/generative music; music which is not explicitly written by a composer, but rather is created through some sort of computational process.

This particular piece is based on a generalized form of the Fibonacci series. (The fibonacci series is strongly related to nature, and is often incorporated into art)

As it happens, this piece of music is not purely algorithmic. The actual score was generated, but the piece was ultimately arranged by a human ear. Regardless, it is still wonderfully impressive.

The link provides a very insightful essay, along with a place to download the track.

http://www.it.rit.edu/~jab/Fibo98/

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idiono

First of all, this is a really great thread and I'm glad I checked it out. Also I'd like to say that what everyone has been saying so far is pretty much exactly how I feel about music. I listen to music almost all of the time, and I find that even if I don't have anything to listen to I'll definitely be singing, humming, or playing a song in my head.

Music is an expression of life, I think. It's an interpretation of all sorts of different emotions and energies, organized to collectively evoke those same feelings in the listener. To be able to do that and relate to someone so closely and express your ideas so well, often times without using words, is extremely fascinating to me.

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werd.

MojoRisin

ishkeb,

You use the anology of the the beautiful woman. So you agree that to see a beautiful woman is to see a beautiful creation, but what is it that created her? And do you think that that same creative force which sculpted her could be running through you?

I don't think God is as involved in fly fishing as this.

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tiberry

This is really turning out to be a good thread...the more people that stop in, the more it seems that we've stumbled onto a commanlity among TFPers.

Believe it or not, there are just a lot of people that seem to be completely desensitized to music. They seem to be just too caught up in "everyday life" to appreciate the emotions that music can elicit or amplify. Seems to be a common perception here...

I especially like what ishkeb started - Taking the obvious "storyline" or lyrics out of the equation, that's a really interesting question...why DOES a piece of music seem to elicit a certain mood based on the sound, key, chords, scale, etc??

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My life's work is to bridge the gap between that which is perceived by the mind and that which is quantifiable by words and numbers.

drum

I can't live without music. I went from playing everyday to never since i don't have time in college. I'm definately not the same person

riptide4070

I had the epiphany of an order of everything we know that connected to music last sunday night. I was studying music while listening to classical.
There is order in life, musical notes, mathematical equations, chemical elements, etc... I'm a believer in God, have been saved, but am not the most faithful servant. My believes are constantly challenged by new ideas and thoughts. It's tough to know what to believe.
But in regards to experiencing life, order to life and inventions, I hear what you guys are saying.

My question is this: if there is NOT a Creator of everything we know, then does the human race create or invent things (periodic table of elements, music, etc.) just from a universe we have come to believe as having created itself???

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ARTelevision

"Music hath charms to soothe a savage breast..."

That's about it.

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dirtyrascal7

this is exactly how i feel... and i don't think i could have said it better. awesome post.


i've been wondering if anyone can relate to this for a while but never knew where or who to ask. anyway, there are a small number of songs that have certain parts to them which simply make me tingle all over. i don't really know how to describe it other than it feels like a wave of slight electrical sparks that starts in the back of my brain then flows down my spine and through my legs... it feels really damn good, and it only happens during certain parts of certain songs which i really like. does anyone else get this sensation?

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Seer666

Sometimes I get that feeling. Just something about a song really kicks you in the stomach and makes you sit up. Not to many that do that to me, but the ones that do.....

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Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

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OFKU0

Actually music does not cause emotions in people but simple acts as a catalyst. What that really means is that people apply their own emotions to the music they are listening to and feel how they want to feel.

The reason being that ten people can listen to the same song and ten different emotions can arise. Some are similar, some are opposite. Basically we feel what we want to. Of course this is primarily in the aesthetic and subjective sense since most people cannot quantify music from an objective sense,..ie ( that sucks,..that sucks because I don't like the singer,...that sucks because the secondary dominant modulated to an incomplete cadence,..)

Minor chords are often related to 'sad' songs while major chords are associated with 'happy' songs. However this is a vague rule usually because a song in a minor key can be upbeat and happy while a song in a major key can be a sad song in ballad form.

A great example I used once in a very long musicology paper was the Beatles song 'Yesterday'. This is very brief but the gist of the song is longing for yesterday.

The point was that 2 people can hear the song at the same time and have the opposite emotional response. Perhaps one person just came out of a relationship and was hurt hears that song. That person is likely to be sad or angry.

But someone else who may have just found their soulmate hears that song, smiles and is happy because yesterday wasn't so good and today is better. We dictate our emotions to cater to what we hear and what we want to hear.

If I had the time I'd post a paper regarding music and emotional responses I did in a strip club. Very interesting. Some strippers leaned towards the lyrics while some were more inclined by the music and not the lyrics. However they all agreed that an emotional release dictated their mood by the music they chose to listened to. Very Interesting.

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" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

SinisterMotives

Music is a non-verbal language that acts upon the subconscious in a way that words can't. Certain songs can serve as anchors for specific events in one's life, such that hearing a song many years later will immediately evoke whatever emotional state the listener was in when the association was created. Sometimes I cue up all the songs I can find from a specific period in my life, and immersing myself in the music makes me feel as if I have been transported back to that period. I imagine this is similar to the effect Christopher Reeve's character produced in the film Somewhere in Time.

Kalis Enigma

Music is a lifeline for me as well. I have a broad taste in music and can usually find something from every genre that I like.

Spiritually, music grounds me and keeps me sane. When I feel like life is getting to be too much, when I feel as if I have stepped over the edge of tolerance where I can no longer handle what life is throwing at me, I listen to music and it brings forth all the hope and promise of a better tomorrow that I need.

I am an Empath, have been all my life. Did not leave my house for two years at one point because I could not control the emotions that flooded over me whenever I was in public. Music helped me to learn to stay calm and block out all the other emotions floating around and focus instead on my own. There is great power in music and that power seems divinely inspired: How else could music have such force and such affect on so many?

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Seer666

Been thinking about this subject lately, and the term "emtion orgasim" comes to mind. May not fit perfectly, but it is all I can come up with right now. Maybe when i sleep more I can describe it better.

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Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

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wonderwench

wicked - great post! I have also wondered about the mathematics of music and the implications thereof.

I listen to a large variety of music - there are some pieces which absolutely pierce my soul. They connect me to the universe.