irateplatypus

From my own personal experience, which includes a fair amount of reading and posting on TFP boards, those who have adopted an agnostic or atheistic worldview are just as fervent about their belief that there is no God (and its various permutations) as those who are completely defined by a faith in a personal God.

It would seem that if someone argued that something exists that I thought absurd, pink elephants for example, I would shrug their comment off and give it no more thought. But many who do not believe in a God devote their lives to proclaiming that fact and belittling those who disagree.

I'm not saying that all who are agnostic or atheistic react this way, nor am I saying that those same people do not have their counterparts on the other side of the spectrum. I'm just confused why some people are as passionate about the absence of something as others are about its presence.

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~ Winston Churchill

Mojo_PeiPei

I think its that people hate the idea of CHristianity, and to a way lesser the extent the actual belief in God... at least thats what I've noticed.

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wilbjammin

Yeah, but you don't go to hell if you don't believe in pink elephants.

I used to really argue against people who asserted that there was a god and I was supposed to believe in it, because I found it offensive. I've given up on it, though I still find it offensive. Perhaps you haven't had a lot of people petitioning you to believe in something that you don't believe in over the years; perhaps they haven't been invasive and downright condescending on a consistent basis. Perhaps you haven't felt that you had to be quiet because voicing your opinion would make you an outsider and open you up to being accosted.

I understand why one would be passionate about it regardless. We are talking about what many see to be a huge fundamental question that shapes our existence. Living with or without god implies a lot of questions about servitude and internal vs. external sources of meaning.

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Mojo_PeiPei

Rather then start a new thread I'll give a shot here because I think it pertains to what Irate is saying....

Is it that you people hate the idea of a Christian God or the belief in a higher power all together? Every major religion claims to be only one path that leds down the same trial, EVERY single one even christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism (you can argue about the ism's being religions, that aside)... everyone. That having been said, in the scheme of the Universe, whose to say that God doesn't just reveal himself to people differently?

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chavos

many people, Christian and atheist alike, beleive that the louder they shout the more correct they become. The louder one shouts, the louder the other shouts. Seems like we've collectively forgotten how to simply talk, and not scream. the internet just brings out the worst...

nanofever

If you are trying to start something other than a massive flame war why not try starting your post with something other than "is it that you people hate the idea of a Christian God or the belief in a higher power all together." I thing that I dispise is when other people attempt to impose their morals on me through government, laws, coming to my door and telling me the only way to salvation is jesus.

I happen to know a number of Christian/Buddhist who are quite spiritually content, no worries about going to hell. It also happens to be my understanding that each religion embraces the idea of "take the good and leave the bad," if only because it is a quite rational and time-tested idea. Furthermore, I find it repugant that you have decided to pigeon hole each religion into a set belief when each religion has hundreds of sects. It also seems humerous that you equate religion with theism, before making broad, sweeping claims perhaps you should at least skims some third-hand sources of religous beliefs, the non-christian ones.

If you look at the people who make a religion what it needs to be, religion is a tolerant, loving support network for people who need/want it. Each religion has figures, both old and new, who proclaim this ideal and if any religion scholars want to name other figures please go ahead. The Dali Lama, Jesus, Rev. Spong, Buddha, Guru Nanak, Muhammed, ect.

Just a final thought from a lecture I heard a few months ago. The lecturer was talking about the purpose of religion and the idea of religion as a journey. He first suggested religion as a mountain with several paths each leading to the same point. He then said that he believed that when he was younger but now he believes that the idea is many mountains with many paths on each mountain.

Just food for thought

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Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum:
"Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

Rodney

I'll just say that I don't think a true agnostic can get excited about the absence or presence of God, because an agnostic as I understand it is simply saying he or she doesn't see a compelling argument one way or the other. I am an agnostic, and I have my own ideas about whether God does or does not exist. But to truly know that God doesn't exist, I'd have to _be_ God, or at least be omniscient enough to look into every little nook and cranny in the universe where it might be hiding. And I'm not.

There are people who are passionate in their proclamation that God isn't there. I class them as atheists. You may ask why they are so passionate. And that is because atheism is a belief system, a religion for them, just as your Christian religion is for you. An atheist is a believer, in his or her own way, has faith in his or her own way, and thus can possibly be just as rabid as any ultra-conservative Christian who believes that anybody who doesn't believe the Bible _verbatim (and the right translation, too), is risking God's eternal hellfire. Whereas your average agnostic will just have another iced tea and read a couple of articles on cosmology and ethnics.

Mojo_PeiPei

I don't see how my question will start a flame war, its straight forward and its not out of line.

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nanofever

"I think its that people hate the idea of CHristianity, and to a way lesser the extent the actual belief in God... at least thats what I've noticed."

I think its that people hate the idea of Atheism, and to a way lesser the extent the actual non-belief in God... at least thats what I've noticed.

"Is it that you people hate the idea of a Christian God or the belief in a higher power all together?"

Is it that you people hate the idea of a Christian God not existing or is it the non-belief in a higher power all together?

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Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum:
"Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

Mojo_PeiPei

Right there is proof of what I'm saying, you made direct reference to a group of Christians. I was merely asking a question in regards to a noticeable trend on this board where people make direct reference to there dislike of the Judeo-Christian beliefs.

Other then that it seems that you said the exact samething as me.

and I'm not going to lie... I am a little confused by what you were trying to get across with your last post.

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nanofever

I was making direct reference to people coming to my door and preaching about their religion, which is simply tacky and shows a lack of respect. If I want to learn about your religion I will ask you or perhaps even wander into your church. The comment was directed at christians because I have never had nor heard of Atheists/Agnostics/Buddhist/Muslims/Jew/anyone by christians doing the annyoing door to door thing. And yes before you say it, I do indeed believe the concept of whitnessing is an extension of pure arrogance.

My last post was pointing out that your diction seemed to be used to incite a flame war.

"I think its that people hate the idea of CHristianity, and to a way lesser the extent the actual belief in God... at least thats what I've noticed."

So because people don't agree with you they must hate your god and by extension all gods

"Is it that you people hate the idea of a Christian God or the belief in a higher power all together?"

First, roll all non-believers into a group with the phrase "you people." Then add the intense negative feeling of "hate" for a bit of flavor. Bake with an extended overgeneralization "or a belive in a higher power all together." Your flame war should be lightly brown before it gets locked.

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I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect.

Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum:
"Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

tecoyah

I do not think people dislike the christian religion, as it is a beautiful thing and promotes the love we should all feel. I think people dislike the christian "followers" for many of the above mentioned reasons. I do not dislike "Republicans", But I have an enormous lack of respect for George W. Bush, this does not make me anti-republican.
The point is, maybe fundies should take any critique personally, as a direct insult. In most cases, that is how it was intended.

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pyraxis

Whether or not you believe in a god has little to do with whether you're a moral absolutist or a moral relativist. People who believe that there is only one answer to the big questions in life (whether that answer is God, logic, or whatever else) are a lot more likely to argue the point than people who believe everyone makes their own truth.

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wilbjammin

As a "true agnostic" I will tell you why it is something to get excited about. Given that (I believe, given what I know) we can't know fundamentally whether there is a god or not, that greatly affects my metaphysical relationship with existence. If I absolutely knew there was a god, or absolutely knew there wasn't a god I would be living under slightly different premises. Of course, the problems of the absurdity of existence aren't answered in any scenario, in fact, it would just be an added layer of absurdity to deal with. The mystery of not knowing is a very important ingredient in my life for dealing with existing.

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irateplatypus

while personal agitation due to constant prosyletizing may be the source of motivation for some, there must be other reasons. I know many individuals that are rarely accosted or criticized for their views, yet often rabidly argue and intimidate those who disagree with them.

i can see how constant badgering by those trying to witness to them might frustrate an atheist or agnostic. i know that were i in the same situation, it would tick me off pretty good. still, the breadth of anger and animosity is too wide for this one factor alone.

any other ideas?


Side Note: you really can't fault people for witnessing in most cases. they genuinely believe they have found truth that will change people's lives for the better. if you had the cure for AIDS, surely you tell anyone who would listen about it. even as a believer, it is annoying to me sometimes also. but still, please think about it from their perspective next time they show up at the door. :-)

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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Tman144

1. Nobody comes to my door, or sets up booths on my campus to promote the belief of pink elephants. Also, these same people try and tell me that I'm going to be punished for eternity for not believing in pink elephants.

2. If the people that post didn't believe so strongly, they wouldn't have taken the effort to post on a message board how wrong they thought you were. It woulnd't be very interesting for every other post to be "sure" or "whatever dude."

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irateplatypus

point number 2 is certainly a valid argument. but, like everyone else on here... message boards account for a minuscule percentage of life experience. personally, i've encountered similar attitudes in all manner of situations with a full range of reactions and intensities.

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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

hiredgun

If you don't want to speak to door-to-door people, then just tell them so. Why is this such a huge deal? I don't understand why you see this as arrogance; they hold certain beliefs, and they're not FORCING them on you, they're just trying to reach you and expose you to them. You don't even have to be exposed if you don't want to, just turn them away from your house...?

KnifeMissile

This is a silly thread.

Of course there are people who are vehement in their non-belief of God. irateplatypus's premise is flawed. Some people will be passive and simply shrug off this belief like they would pink elephants but many people will try just as vehemently to dissuade you from thinking that there are pink elephants. It's only natural to assume that these people will also vehemently dissuade you from believing in God if they thought He didn't exist.

Haven't you ever had a heated argument over someone because you knew they were wrong? Surely this has happened before. Some examples I can think of in my own life that I have witnessed (not necessarily participated in) is whether the post office delivers the mail on the weekend, or whether you really need more than one microphone to record sound in stereo. These people could simply have shrugged and said to themselves "okay, they're deluding themselves. Why would I care?" but they didn't because they wanted to "correct" someone, for whatever reasons.

I'll be very surprised if you've never wanted to correct someone...

irateplatypus

i know of no one who would argue that there are pink elephants with the same intensity that I have witnessed about there being a deity. But then again, I'm not from Canada... (joking)

you're employing the scarecrow fallacy. no one is saying that they have never wanted to correct someone. and no one is saying that there aren't people who want to correct others for their own reasons. my post is regarding a trend that i've noticed throughout my lifetime, engaging many different types of people around the world. in my experience, which this thread was based upon from the initial post, the reaction to the idea of God far outstrips any other subject you care to name. certainly there will be exceptions, rule breakers of all sorts. that doesn't take away from the overall trend i've encountered.

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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

tecoyah

From a personal standpoint, I tend to be more agressive in my discourse with a christian because I was one. With a first hand knowledge of the lifestyle and forced ignorance this entails. It took me Years longer to reach some level of enlightenment because of peer pressure, and as I am imperfect, I harbor resentment.
Now, when A "hardcore" christian asks for rebuttal, I am hard pressed to resist. And bieng armed with what I consider to be a much larger quantity, and quality of evidence against my old faith, I actually enjoy the debates.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

thespian86

In highschool I had a friend who was an atheist. I don't truly believe that he thought that "there is no God" but that maybe he was just confused, but i'm not say that applies to all atheists. It could also be the same for believers of a personal God.

No matters what happens in life you will believe something and life is supposed to be that way. If you don't have faith then what do you have? I find that every thread in philosophy, to me, always turns out to be the same answer.

Life is a question. Some think they have an answer to it and some don't. God or no God or Allah or Budda or ect... your going to come to your own conclusion.

So after that, I think that people in general need something to cling to, and something that provides alot of security is religion. In time of need they turn to thier God, or away from God

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nanofever

I see the Christian idea of whitnessing as arrogance, to me it says that "we have such a good idea we feel the need to go door to door and spread this belief." The majority of people that I have met doing this believe they have the monolopy on universal truth and morality. I would also like to pointout that christanity is one of the only religions with the arrogance to make whitnessing a part of its doctrine.

I'm an athiest and I think it is a pretty good system, rational, based in logic, doesn't have to rely on boogiemen and bad places if you don't follow archaic rules and it can change if proof to the contrary somehow comes into existence. That being said I don't even presume to be arrogant enough to go door to door and preach atheism. The first reason why is that it is both rude and presumptious on my part. The second would be that if people choose atheism it is because that is what they choose not because some religion salesman comes to the door and makes a sale.

Your main argument is that I don't have to be exposed to the message that they are delivering. Thats 120% arrogant because it both assumes that I don't know christian doctrine or I would be following it and that the message is something that everyone needs to hear. It isn't the message that upsets up, it is the arrogant mindset behind the way the message is delivered.

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I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect.

Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum:
"Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

KnifeMissile

First of all, when you close your post with "I'm just confused why some people are as passionate about the absence of something as others are about its presence," it really doesn't sound like you're talking about a trend to me. It simply sound like you don't understand how these few people exist. I like to think I don't build straw men.

Now, I'm still incredulous over your incredulity. I'm pretty sure if I went into Tilted Knowledge and claimed vehemently that the moon landings were faked that I would get just as strong on opinion as if I had come in here saying He doesn't exist. Would you find this weird?

Someone else did make the good point that the only reactions you're going to get in here are strong ones, for obvious reasons...

irateplatypus

haha, straw man. thanks for the correction. is my face red? should be.

you did build a straw man in the post i responded to, whether or not your experiences match up with mine are a different issue.

forgive me if my original post didn't sound like i was talking about a trend, i was.

Granted, most of the posts would be strong responses given the nature of this medium. That is why I have repeatedly cited my overall experience, not just board arguments.

Thanks for the input all.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Zegel

Eh, I think the answer is simple. Go back to your example of the Pink Elephant.

If 98% of the populace believed in the Pink Elephant, then what would you do?

Remember, you're playing the role of the atheist, so you have to truely believe that the Pink Elephant does not exist. If that is what you really believe, then you're going to have a problem with 98% of the world disagreeing with you, are you not?

tiberry

Two things:

1. The folks that argue (myself included) are probably more interested in 'being' right than convincing someone else they're right. In other words, they're really not sure, but arguing helps to convince themselves.

2. As someone pointed out earlier, there are obviously larger ramifications in play with religion - life, death, hell, etc. than with pink elephants.

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My life's work is to bridge the gap between that which is perceived by the mind and that which is quantifiable by words and numbers.

:::OshnSoul:::

I find most of these topics stimulating, as a way to grow and evolve myself, and to share and experience my thoughts as well as the thoughts of others.
I may come across as arguing sometimes, but I mean no disrespect- it is to stir the pot a little to get myself and possibly others thinking.
In no way is my intention to show myself as being right or persuading someone else of my Truth.
It's fun and a wonderful experience, although some people can take comments the wrong way.
I think that anyone who delves into Philosophy is bound to state their belief may come across as "right", but some people are in it merely for the experience of learning and evolving.

ShaniFaye

I always like to know how people that believe other than me think...I dont appreciate it being shoved down my throat..but if I put myself in the position (such as entering a thread on these particular discussions) then I kind of expect to see people that are passionate, or sometimes outright overbearing in what they say.

I believe in god, but I dont believe in organized religion...and "my" god wants me be to be educated in the ways others think so that I can be more understanding and tolerable...its not my place to either judge or tell someone else they are wrong in what they do or dont believe as far as religion goes, and as I said, as long as it was something I sought out, I enjoy hearing all the arguments.

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tecoyah

couldnt have said it better myself.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha