filtherton

I've been thinking about this lately. If accepting jesus as your lord and savior is required to get into heaven(according to many christian denominations), which after-world did those who died pre-crucifiction go? Did everyone go to heaven, or did everyone go to hell? Was it determined by one's virtue in life.

I realize that some christians don't believe in hell, and that some christians place more value on righteousness than acknowledgement of jesus' sacrifice in terms of getting into heaven. I'm just curious how a god fearing christian would approach this question.

MSD

They would say that their soulds are in limbo unti lthe second coming of Christ, at which point they will be judged with the rest of the souls of the world.

asaris

Well, it's clear that not all pre-Christian souls will go to hell -- we're told quite explicitly that Abraham will be in heaven. In general, I believe the Bible teaches that those who hear the gospel and accept it are saved. It doesn't say anything about the rest.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

filtherton

I guess that sucks for them then, huh?

hannukah harry

read dante's inferno sometime... as dante's entering hell, there's this area, it may have even been the first level of hell, can't really remember, maybe the foyer of hell, where all the "virtuous pagans" went. people like virgil, plato, aristotle went there. it was essentially a tranquil field where they could stand around and discuss things.

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chavos

any cosmology, especially dante's, is going to be based on extra-scriptural conjecture... and i don't think its fair to attempt to assign hell/non-hell judgements on folks.

personally, i think the question is moot, since i don't think hell exists, at least in a form we would recogize as such. but the overriding concern of the invetion of hell was to punish those who opressed the faithful in life and got away with it. to concieve that it would punish others is probably incorrect...in original heaven/hell cosmologies (circa 200-150 BCE), most virtous/average pagans (to borrow dante's word) would not be resurrected at all...they would simply stay in sheol, the nothingness. Their rewards and punishments were adequately dealt in life, and so there was no theodical arguement for why they should live again.

filtherton

I tried reading dante's inferno, but at some point i came to the conclusion that dante's inferno was actually the therapeutic writings of a bitter, bitter man. Dante' inferno was a way for dante to write all of those whom he believed betrayed him into hell.


I agree chavos that it is a moot question. I don't believe in hell either. I asked more out of curiousity, and the need to know whether, for those who believe in hell, salvation could be denied those who predate its requirements.

Fibrosa

I could have sworn I read somewhere that the ancient hebrews did not believe in a heaven per say; they believed in shoel, which is similar to our concept of pergatory, although there was no 'higher' plane.

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D'oh!

chavos

Close...Sheol simply was nothingness...a non-conscious non-existance. Beleif in a resurrection of the body, and or heaven does not enter until circa 200 BCE.

asaris

And the belief in the resurrection is still conflicted in the Jewish faith until the destruction of the temple -- the two main factions in Jewish government were divided on the question of whether there was a resurrection.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

CSflim

Doesn't seem very fair does it?
I mean two thousand years ago, miracles were a dime a dozen...you'd have to be a fool not to believe that this Jesus guy was actually the son of god, he could cure leperosy, make the blind see, and make cripples walk, just by touching them.

These days we have no first hand evidence...only hearsay. As a result, silly skeptics like me are going to hell (or maybe limbo if I'm lucky?), yet I seem to be mainly a product of my environment.
I lead a reasonably moral life, I just tend not to take two thousand year old games of chinese whispers very seriously.

The same objection goes for the poor people who lived in years BC. They are going to limbo/hell, purely on the basis of their year of birth? An incredibly unjust system in my opinion.

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asaris

CSflim -- has anyone in this thread taken the position you're objecting to?

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Fibrosa

Are you sure about that? I seem to recall that Sheol was an actual valley in Isreal...gah! I can't remember....

CSflim

No. I wasn't attacking anyone in this thread. Should have made that clear.
I was trying to show how unfair it would be to damn pre-christ humans (or post-christ atheists).

However, I was answering the question which was asked, and was most certainly not attacking a straw man, as much of the established church's teachings is that faith is a requirement for salvation.

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KeyKingKong

NO, it's listed in Romans how the people from the old testament got into heaven. People from the old testament got into heaven mainly through the jewish standards untill Jesus came and abolished jewish rule and making his own new rule.

word

-Fire

chavos

shared name...

dy156

I remember asking my pastor this in the Sunday school class you took after baptism when I was about 12. He said that was a really good question, and that he knew Abraham and Moses, and some other prophet went straight to heaven, but he'd get back to me.
The next week he said that in the Book of Hebrews it talks about how Christ took those old souls to heaven between the time of his crucifixion and the resurrection. I'm still not sure. Supposedly those that kept the Hebrew covenant with God by obeying his laws would have gone to heaven, but since Christ was the first "perfect" man, I assume all the Jews faltered at some point. Were they all in Hell until Christ went down there and rescued them? I'm still not sure, and it's still a great question.

Mojo_PeiPei

I think the deal was that the gates of heaven were closed up until the point that Jesus died for the sins of man. At that point they were let into the party.

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synic213

Yeah, like KeyKingKong said, pre-Christian Jews lived under the old covenant, a set of rules God created that had nothing to do with Jesus.
When Jesus arrived on scene, he (with God) created a new set of rules, the new covenant, that had different requirements for getting into heaven.
Both sets of rules left you with an opportunity to be saved, and an opportunity to be damned.
The interesting point here is that (according to common interpretations of the bible) everybody goes into limbo until the second coming of Christ. So there is either a heck of a lot of people sitting in limbo, or Christ has already come and gone for the second time and we all missed the boat. Meaning we're already in hell or tribulation or whatever syntax you prefer.

prosequence

People died and went to hell. People died and went to heaven. Jesus died for mankind to provide people a chance to repent for their sinful lives (if need be) and to bring joy to those followed doctrine already.
More or less a cushion against God's wrath.... you know... so Like Amsterdam wouldn't get ye ol fire and brimstone remake.
It's nice to see so many people looking for answers to help them get into heaven.

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thingstodo

I realize that some christians don't believe in hell, and that some christians place more value on righteousness than acknowledgement of jesus' sacrifice in terms of getting into heaven. I'm just curious how a god fearing christian would approach this question. [/B][/QUOTE]

Now this was confusing. It also illustrates just how much the christian religion has been bent to whomever's needs.

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bermuDa

the inferno was more a ploy for Dante to get back into good favor with the ruling family of the time (I believe it was the medicis). His version of hell is the fire and brimstone version that's designed to scare everyone into christianity... the bible itself describes hell as "torment", not "torture". "torment" is defined as the absense of god...

so essentially, if you don't believe in god in this life, you don't have to be in his presence in the next.

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CheeseButtons

I haven't read all these posts...but in reply to the original question...

It is a tough question...because honestly who really knows that anyone goes to heaven? I say that with an open mind. That is where faith comes in. I believe that those that had Faith in God, are saved. Jesus came to save ALL sins...past and present...a retroactive salvation. As long as you believe you are saved.

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because a sad face is good for the heart. -Ecclesiastes 7:3

raeanna74

Sheol actually would be better interpreted as the "valley of the dead". In the places in the new testiment where "hell" is correctly interpreted the word used was Gehenna. Gehenna was originally in reference to a place where the leprous dead, diseased dead, and other garbage was dumped outside the city. It was then burned and there was known to be a constant fire in the pit. It was used as an example of "hell" when Christ described it.

In Luke 16:19-31 Christ gives a parable that most Christians take to be a description of pre-Christ Hell and Heaven. It tells of a rich man who is sent to "hell" and there he was in torment and parched by the flames. It also mentions a poor man who was sent to "Abraham's Bosom" and the two places were divided by a river. If you want to look for a description of hell and heaven as the original beliefs were then look to this text.

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My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

RippedSock1

It is my understanding that, under Catholic Christian teaching, God is a being that "resides" outside of time. In order to understand the pre-christ people question, you have to think outside of what we perceive as time.

When we die, we lose our sense of time. We become, in a sense, more like God. So, if a person died before Christ's existence, or if this person is in "limbo", I suppose that there wouldn't really be a "before" and there would be no waiting since time is no longer a factor.

If this is hard to understand, think of it like this: Once we die, we're judged generally. *Right after*, (I use this phrase VERY LOOSELY since this idea is beyond our total comprehension) we are judged finally; a.k.a. the end of the cosmos sense of time. If you want to think of it in terms of time: Your grandmother who died thirteen years ago is now in existence with you, me, and everyone else who happens to be in this same place. Another example: if I were to die now, I'd be with everyone posting in this thread... provided that we all ended up in the same place.

When Jesus died for the sins of humanity, He effectively did just that. Everyone before Him and after Him were "saved" because in death, the perception of time is lost. I figure that every single human gets judged generally and finally because, once again, time is not a factor.

rsl12

not quite right--according to dante, after the ressurection, jesus went down to hell and took to heaven all the souls in limbo. limbo is for people who had lead exemplary lives, but did not accept the christian god. now the only ones in limbo are those who have died after christ's ressurection. plato and aristotle were no longer in limbo when dante went to visit, if i remember right--only virgil (who would have been alive after christ's death).

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Ustwo

A better question would be how would a all loving and knowing god let you be sent to hell since he/she/it/they would know your motivations that led you astray, and your quirks of hormone and development which made you who you are.

Interesting short story I read (while in Catholic school) was where only man judged man, god was a all knowing all understanding witness called to give witness but it was men who sent the sinner to hell. God was a total wuss. I can't recall the author but I'm sure someone else here has read it and could offer it. What I also recall was that the teacher was rather miffed that god was portrayed as such a wimp. He liked the idea of a vengeful god I think

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Jay Francis

This is a great thread. And raises some theological questions that I have discussed with Christians over the years.

Here is how it goes
If a baby or young child dies before they are baptized do they go to hell? Most Christians would say absolutely not, they go to heaven. So, an aborted fetus is guaranteed a place in heaven, which,if your goal as a Christian is to get to heaven, the best thing that you can do for a fetus is abort it.

But to carry on with the discussion. Once it is established that a baby who dies goes to heaven, you next ask if a person who has never heard the gospel is automatically damned to eternal suffering, even though he had no opportunity to hear the gospel.

For example, someone in a remote part of the world.

Once it is established that god wouldn't punish a person with eternal damnation for never hearing the Gospel you go to the next question.

If a missionary visits this remote group, presents the gospel to the people and they hear it and reject it, are they now damned for eternity?

If so, isn't it better never to have heard the gospel than to hear it and reject it?

rsl12

jay: abortion may be great for the fetus, but not so great for the people who perform the venal sin of murder...

the second point is interesting--since the fetus goes to heaven without having a chance to believe in god, why do other older souls end up in limbo? at what age does the effect kick in? according to catholic beliefs there's no middle ground--you can't go to purgatory without believing in god.

as for the person who rejects the missionary, they ought to go to hell, no questions asked. of course, according to dante, they end up in the most pleasantest part of hell--an comfortable eternal life where the only torment is that they realize they are not in the grace of god.

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oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

raeanna74

Jay: I was taught that the "all creation tells the glory of God" and that a person's conscience is sufficient to damn a man to hell whether he hears the "gospel" or not. In that context the natives who've never heard the gospel but believe in a higher being and worship that being without knowing what it is will still got to heaven. Those that reject that being and ignore their own conscience condemn themselves to hell.

The infant goes to heaven because they have not reached the "age of accountability" where they can understand the "gospel" or listen to their coscience. That age can vary according to different denominations and between catholics and prostestants.

This is what I was taught.

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"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

asaris

There are actually other claims regarding unbaptized infants, other than that they automatically go to heaven. My own position is "I don't know". Some think they're reborn. Others, that they go to hell (cf. St. Augustine). So there's some variety here.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Redjake

To answer the question, no, not really. Since the concept of Heaven and Hell wasn't really introduced 'til the New Testament, a replacement killer (I'm going to Hell for that one...or should I say Sheol) was introduced in the Old Testament to provide somewhat of an after-life. I think it was called Sheol or something. Wasn't really Heaven, Hell, or even Purgatory. It was just Sheol. I think the translation is "the Pit" or something like that. So they went to the Pit. Sounds fun.

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Jay Francis

Thanks for the insight on Augustine (ach du lieber!). I didn't know that Augustine proposed that babies went to hell.

Chingal0

Do post-christ humans go to 'hell'?

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"Eventually I became too sexy for my gym membership fee."

Zander

No, there is no hell, nor heaven, give up your fantasies of any post-life.

SecretMethod70

Yup. Worked for the people of his time, but that idea is rejected by a lot of contemporary Christianity/Catholicism

This is a very loaded question which I won't bother getting into too much, but there are many different conceptions of Hell in Christianity today. Simply, the answer to your question is yes. It requires a little clarification I think though. To be very general I'll sum it up into two schools of thought....one, the more fundamental, says, basically, that Hell is a punishment from God for rejecting Him, etc etc etc. I'm not going to expound much more on that because I really reject the concept and am not concerned with it. The other is that Hell is not something done to man by God but done to man by himself. Thinking of Hell as a state of being in the absence of God, and of God as someone who is freely available to anyone, Hell is what someone does to themself by choosing not to allow God into their life and remain attached to themselves. Extremely simply put, the state of "Hell" is for the selfish and the state of "Heaven" is for the selfless. One can be selfless, and thus accepting God into their life, without believing in the words "God" or "Jesus" - at least, that's my belief as a Catholic - but that's not to say it's not more difficult to become selfless without an understanding of what's guiding you in it.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

filtherton

I think that qualifies as The most compelling thing anyone has posted in this thread so far.

Please stick to the topic. This isn't an "is there an afterlife?" thread.

Chingal0

I agree with what you said SM70, but like you said, there is alot more to it then really needs to be discussed. I just brought it up for people to roll over.. Altho, your latter definition of hell makes more sense to me, still the 'lack of presence of god' is there. Many people live their lives without the 'presence' of god, and according to your definition, would their lives be considered hell? Also, your 'selfless and selfish' labels sound a little biased toward christianity as a whole, as if one were agnostic they perhaps would not choose such labels to describe said people.

All in all, it makes sense to me, and I personally am still deciding on the difference between heaven and hell, perhaps we all goto the same place.. I am not sure.

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SecretMethod70

well....yeah, those labels are biased towards Christianity cause, well, Hell is a Christian thing

It's srot of difficult to get into the difference between absence of God now and in the state of Hell, but let's just say that the ways in which it is possible to shut yourself off from God now are nothing compared to the state of being eternally shut off.

The Christian writer Thomas Merton writes the metaphor, "Hell is where no one has anytrhing in commonwith anybody else except the fact that they all hate one another and cannot get away from one another and from themselves." and "[It] is not so much that they hate what they see in others, as they know others hate what they see in them: and all recognize in one another what they detest in themselves, selfishness and impotence, agony, terror, and despair."

So, I guess a good way to put it is that, no matter what, there are redeeming qualities to be found in this world. No matter how much you separate yourself from God, there are people to be found that will be good to you and people that you will be good to. Hell is when you've finally and ultimately chosen to separate yourself from God and therefore are removed from all Love and Peace which is God.

And now that I've COMPLETELY gotten off-topic .....

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"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling