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Old 01-11-2004, 11:34 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Lust to no longer be a Deadly Sin?

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Lust declared virtue, not vice


Bad ideology is accused of hindering lust's "freedom of flow"
Lust has been wrongly branded a vice and should be "reclaimed for humanity" as a life-affirming virtue, according to a top philsopher.
Professor Simon Blackburn of Cambridge University is trying to "rescue" lust, arguing it has been wrongly condemned for centuries, the Sunday Times says.

His campaign is part of an Oxford University Press project on the modern relevance of the seven deadly sins.

The list of sins was drawn up by Pope Gregory the Great in the 6th Century.

OUP has commissioned books on each of the sins - lust, anger, envy, gluttony, sloth, pride and greed.

Controlling lust

It says Prof Blackburn is aiming to save lust "from the denunciations of old men of the deserts, to deliver it from the pallid and envious confessor and the stocks and pillories of the Puritans, to drag it from the category of sin to that of virtue".

According to the Sunday Times, Prof Blackburn has defined lust as "the enthusiastic desire for sexual activity and its pleasures for its own sake".

The philosopher says that if reciprocated, lust leads to pleasure and "best flourishes when unencumbered by bad philosophy and ideology... which prevent its freedom of flow".

He points out that thirst is not criticised although it can lead to drunkenness and in the same way lust should not be condemned just because it can get out of hand, the paper says.

Professor Blackburn is quoted as saying: "The important thing is that generally anything that gives pleasure has a presumption in its favour.

"The question is how we control it."
I was beginning to wonder about the religious types until I read the very last nice.

Control; I thought adding it to the list of deadly sins was control enough?

Please add your reactions.
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Old 01-11-2004, 01:19 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I call it a logical evolutinosary step. They'll probably call me a heretic for saying that.
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Old 01-11-2004, 08:04 PM   #3 (permalink)
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depends on your defition of lust. if it amounts to objectification and devaluation of other human beings...then no. if it is a passion to express love...then yeah, its cool.
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Old 01-11-2004, 08:16 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Well, as far as I know, most traditional Christians would tend to agree with Blackburn's definition to some extent, and argue that under that definition, lust would be inherently objectifying. Since Blackburn defines lust as desire for sexual activity for its own sake, it's hard for me to see how that could not be objectifying, since you're having relations with the other person not for their sake, but for the sake of the sex. It should hardly need saying that the denunciation of that sort of lust doesn't mean that there's not something else that could be called lust which is in fact a virtue.
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"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

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Old 01-11-2004, 08:16 PM   #5 (permalink)
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The aversion to lust has been a manifestation of the believe that the mind and body are two seperate entities. Valuing the mind over the body led to a religious doctine that devalued anything more strongly connected to the body and less of the mind. Since the mind is more ethereal, and god-like apparently... in any event, we're moving away from this duality towards a better representation of humanity where the mind and body are not seperated, but very closely connected. And away from shame, guilt, and in general a schizophrenic view of the self.
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Old 01-12-2004, 11:44 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Yay for lust.
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Old 01-13-2004, 06:44 AM   #7 (permalink)
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This actually makes a lot of sense......you can't argue with the thirst analogy.
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Old 01-14-2004, 06:55 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I dont see how lust can ever be considered sin, that is, with the exception of the cases of rapists, molesters, and pedophiles...those extreme cases are just plain WRONG!!...other than that...if you're horny and in love, Go for It!(assuming both parties are both horny and in love)
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Old 01-15-2004, 08:52 PM   #9 (permalink)
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lust, anger, envy, gluttony, sloth, pride and greed

The "sin" in each of these is in the excessive pursuit. In actuality, a life without at least a little bit of each of these incomplete (all things in moderation, eh?) These are the things that drive society... evolution, even.

Pope Gregory the "Great" was, like us all, a product of his Age. He was trying to define life for his times and looking for Christians to rededicate themselves to the spread Christianity. His "Dialogs" are extensively about self denial in the service of God. A decadent Roman Empite had recently been overrun by Germanic tribes and his appeal to a more disciplined lifestyle resonnated well. The Seven Deadly Sins became dogma, even thought they had no basis in the teaches of Christ.
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Old 01-18-2004, 09:52 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by grumpyolddude
lust, anger, envy, gluttony, sloth, pride and greed

The "sin" in each of these is in the excessive pursuit. In actuality, a life without at least a little bit of each of these incomplete (all things in moderation, eh?) These are the things that drive society... evolution, even.

In other words, the thoughts themselves are not the "sin." Sin comes when action harmful to others, is taken.
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Old 01-18-2004, 10:38 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by sexymama
In other words, the thoughts themselves are not the "sin." Sin comes when action harmful to others, is taken.
IMO, yes. Contrary to what the Catholic Church tried to drum into me, thoughts cannot be, by themselves, "sin." The manner in which you act upon your thoughts make them "sinful" or not.
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Old 01-20-2004, 11:06 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by grumpyolddude
IMO, yes. Contrary to what the Catholic Church tried to drum into me, thoughts cannot be, by themselves, "sin." The manner in which you act upon your thoughts make them "sinful" or not.
Untrue. Unconscious thoughts are not sin -- that is, if some idea pops into my head, I'm not responsible for it. But if I dwell upon it, it is sin. Why? Because if I dwell, say, on the fantasy of killing my advisor, there might come a time when I'm not free to not kill him. It might become an obsession, and in any case would make me a worse person. And, of course, that's what sin's about -- whether or not doing something makes you a worse person.
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"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche
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Old 01-24-2004, 10:03 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by grumpyolddude
lust, anger, envy, gluttony, sloth, pride and greed

The "sin" in each of these is in the excessive pursuit.
I mostly agree except for one small point:

Some are by definition excesses:

Gluttony, excessive consumption
Sloth, excessive laziness
Greed, excessive materialism
Lust, excessive desire.

That's the point of the list as I understand them, they are all excessive demonstrations of normal human behaviours.

Whether it's officially removed or not, I will always consider lust a deadly sin.

imho,

-bear
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Old 01-30-2004, 07:29 AM   #14 (permalink)
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lust, i believe, is a sin only to the extent that one goes overboard with it.
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Old 01-30-2004, 11:47 AM   #15 (permalink)
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his comparison of thirst to lust is a bit off I think. gluttony would be a better comparison: i.e. thirst is to gluttony as love(??) is to lust thirst does not lead to drunkenness or gluttony just as love does not lead to lust.
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