EleqTrizi'T

I have a problem that no one can answer.

The Bible says that as one of the conditions to going to heaven, you must believe in God and his Son. You also must of have been a good person (with all that entails, up to interpretation).

But I was thinking, if I was God, all I would ask is that people live a good life and are good to each other. I wouldn't necessarily require you to worship me. If you happened to have stumbled into living right by other means, so let it be. Come on in! We'll get to know each other later.

So why is that? If not believing in God is a sin that is unforgivable, then why am *I* willing to forgive someone for it if I were god... but God isn't? Why am I potentially more forgiving than God??

Further, what kind of condition is this in the first place? If God is supposed to be the embodiment of Good in the universe, why this seemingly selfish requirement?

Before you answer, please consider that I've already heard the outside comments. Like, the requirement of believing in God is was made for reasons of power by the church. I know, it's certainly possible. I just want to hear a reasonable explanation from someone who believes this requirement of believing in God to be true.

I want a good reason. The Priests and Pastors in my area have failed.

johnnymysto

EleqTrizi't, I'll give it a shot.

The requirement is not that you believe in God. A lot of people believe in God, and have no interest in Christianity or going to Heaven. God's "requirement" (His desire, really), is that you believe that Jesus has paid the only thing that can be paid to forgive you of your rebellion against God. Jesus said the greatest commandment was to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind (Matt. 22:37). So, God wants your love. He wants you to love Him like He loves you. As the one who created you, this seems like a normal request. He's not going to make you do this, but it's what He would like.

Now, as far as you being more forgiving than God, we have to consider the parameters of God's forgiveness. Let's establish that we have all let God down at some point. We have broken a law at some time that God has set in place. When you break a law, even in real life, there must be punishment for it. That is how justice works. So, if God is going to be just and fair to us all, we have to be punished if we break the law. However, in an attempt to show His love and keep us all from being damned, He instead punished Jesus - one supreme, ultimate punishment. Now, all we have to do to avoid receiving the sentence for our crimes is to believe that Jesus has already received it. If you truly believe this, you will realize that love that God showed us, and the love that Jesus must have had for us in order to do that. Then, the worship of God naturally follows.

I hope this has helped. I'm not a theology student, and there are probably some big logical leaps in my explanation. But, I hope this can provide the basis for further discussion.

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tecoyah

ongaratulations...you are on the road to enlightenment in the world of humans.An understanding of the failures of men to accurately interpret the words of a god into text after text is a step towards truly understanding what "God" means. The needs of this "selfish" god are not neccessarily what was intended. If you, as a Flawed creature translate a"perfect " text from one language to another you will make at least one mistake somewhere. Now, imagine several hundred people translating that same text , one after another over thousands of years.....will it read the same as the origional, not likely......just my take.

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bermuDa

the church requires that you believe in god to go to heaven (and use their facilities as a middleman for your religious discourse with the lord), otherwise how else would they collect their tithings?

In fact, the original notion of hell has nothing to do with the fiery pits described in Dante's Inferno. Nowhere in the bible is the word "torture" mentioned in reference to hell, only "torment". Hell is described as the ABSENCE OF GOD, meaning if you don't believe in god, you don't have to chill with him in the afterlife. The catholic hell we all imagine would be so painful is just a device to scare people into being christian. It proved especially effective against the indigenous peoples of "uncivilized" lands conquered by the christian empires of europe.

You will never find a satisfactory answer to your question, because there is none that defend that claim.

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nanofever

I'm reminded of a quote from the band Clandestine "The clergy dazzels us with heaven or they damn us into hell."

That is all...

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"Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

Eviltree

Well said, Bermuda. I am in agreement. I think that what God had originally intended was for everyone to live a good life, but someone may have used that to their benefit sometime, and invented the "fire and brimstone" mentality

sailor

Good answer. You took the words right out of my mouth.

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KnifeMissile

I should mention that, as far as I know, being good has nothing to do with your entrance to heaven. All sins are forgivable, so the only requirement is that you believe in God...

Yakk

The view of hell as "absence of god" is a pretty good arguement.

Imagine that god forgives everything. Unconditionally. Period. There is nothing you can do that is beyond the scope of god's forgiveness.

Now, imagine if god gave you true free will. You gained the ability to reject god. God forgives you, god loves you, but you have the choice not to return this love, not to accept this forgiveness. Without choice, there is no free will. Without consequences, choice is but an illusion.

When you die without love for god, if god took you against your will, that wouldn't be a free choice. You'd be going to god dispite making the choice of rejecting him.

And without free will, you aren't anything. There is nothing there without your free will, nothing to harm, and nothing to love. You'd be no more than a rock.

The hard part is, accepting god's love and forgiveness isn't easy. Believeing, with all your heart, all your soul, isn't easy.

Either that, or this entire god thing is a great example of an infectious meme.

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

Mantus

It has been answered, time and time again.

The problem is that you still want your answer within the context of something which is already flawed.

Do not be like the ancient astrologers. Trying to explain the working of the heavens though spheres and epicycles because their dogma would not let them do otherwise.

chavos

i would caution conflating what has come to be known as "Christian" and the theology of Jesus....i have found them to be very different.

my personal theology is "grace based" and it too, it a modern construct that i hope is loyal to what jesus taught, but is potentially flawed....

my point is that the idea of God as needing the sacrifice of a perfect one in our stead, or being the judge on high are not necessarily what the scriptures really teach-i think that its important to separate out the atonement theology and recognize it....and decide to accept it or not...it is not a precondition of a Christian journey.

i have found it far less important to adhere to any of the creeds-statements made by failiable people trying to understand Christ-than it has been to be in community with those trying to live out the commands of Jesus: to love God and nieghbor, who bear the divine image.

I can't tell you if Jesus was bodily ressurected for instance...i don't know. His disciples had doubts, and they saw him. But i can still beleive in the victory that Christ proclaims-that love will have the last word in this world.

EleqTrizi'T

I'm sorry, but I don't find this incredibly useful.

Fact is, I've been going to church all my life and have never heard this question raised. When I finally conjoured up the question, there was no useful, sensible answer.

The part that has always fouled people up is the idea that I would be more accepting than God Himself, which while sounding absurd, seems to be a decent question.

EleqTrizi'T

I would argue the punishment of not going to heaven would be because of wrongs you have committed that you are not remorseful for, not necesasrily for accepting God.

Here is my big problem. My best friend is one of the most responsible, family-oriented, loving, caring, giving people I know. But he's athiest. His reason for being athiest is really flawed, you'll just have to take my word on it, but that's irrelevant.

I just can't imagine that a man, say the murderous leader of an army, would be allowed into heaven before him. It blows my mind.

Heaven is protrayed as a place of peace and good. The first fits in better than the latter. I have a hard time accepting that any single "belief" requirement would be more important than the sum total of man's life.

I think some of you are taking this too personally, maybe as an attack on your personal beliefs. It is not. I just want to know. That's all.

Thanks to all who have answered so far. There have already been paths laid down in this thread I'm going to explore.

irateplatypus

to echo some of the other posts, from a Christian perspective... no measure of doing good will not get you into heaven. As humans, we are bound to mess up as a matter of course. But, to diverge from some of the posts, the plain belief in God will not in itself bring salvation either. A person can believe in God but totally reject him. You have to recognize that you have failed (as we all have) to meet God's law and recognize that the only way you can be reconciled with the divine is through the request of forgiveness and the acceptance of Jesus' suffering in your place.

as for the situation of your friend...

I believe that God will judge us by the same standards, but with infinitely more wisdom than I can hope to perceive. But, one must remember, both your friend and the tyrant will have sinned at some point in their lives. Perhaps the volume of sin is irrelevant in some way? (speculation, of course) If that tyrant realizes that truly he is at fault and has only the grace of Christ to cover his shortcomings... then I believe it changes the complexion of the situation. Your friend on the other hand will have spent his whole life sinning less often, but will not have the asked for the mercy of the Father in recognition of his weakness.

In short, I believe the recognition of fault coupled with the request of underserving forgiveness is the most important element of salvation in the understanding of Christian faith.

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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

wilbjammin

I guess I'm in hell on earth. It doesn't bother me in the least. Or perhaps, like Stephen Daedalus in <u>Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man</u> choosing to be my own "god" rather than an agent of god is where I am. In that case, I'm not in hell.

Kierkegaard writes of Christianity that it is the best religion to connect with precisely because of its absurdity. Existence is naturally absurd (see Albert Camus - "An Absurd Reasoning") and as such, choosing the most absurd of the religions for Kiekegaard is the most preferable of all choices.

As for this absurd question you pose, I have another: Do you think you can understand God?

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chavos

Might i ask where, bibilically, that you believe this is indicated? I don't mean to be snide at all...but i think you are assuming a great deal-you may choose to make those assumptions, and i cannot fault you for it, but i do wish to draw them to your attention. I don't think the case for "confession to Christ=heaven" is particularly strong from a scriptural standpoint...

Yakk

Are you certain?

What if god forgives everything. Period. You don't even have to ask for forgiveness, because god's mercy is infinite. There is no bound.

Your lack of remorse does not harm god. You are still forgiven, completely and utterly.

By your own arguement, "how could I imagine myself to be more forgiving than god?", this is the end result. Anything short of this would fail that same test.

That murderous leader of an army truely accepted god?

No, really, did the leader accept god? And went on to do mass murder, in gods name?

And not some idol or concept in a madmans head. God.

If a rich man's chance of going into heaven is like that of a camel through the eye of a needle, what chance does a warlord have?

Your athiest friend chose to reject god. Now, remember, he has free will. Remember, it is that feature that makes us truely matter.

Can a person choose, out of their own free will, to reject god? If heaven is eternity in gods prescence, if one cannot make the choice not to go to heaven, what free will do we have?

What if free will is actually more important than a guarantee of eternal happyness? Without free will, you are nothing but an automaton.

Then again, maybe your friend did not choose to reject god.



Do you know what eternity is? How long christian theology says the afterlife is? Carry a rock from one side of the earth to the other. And then carry the rocks back. After building a million everests, you still won't have really begun.

And is god present on Earth or not? Many would claim god is present everywhere. And many would claim that god is nowhere. But, if you are going to argue within the realm of christian theology, you should at least admit the existance of god, for the sake of arguement. =)

Sho Nuff

One possible explanation is the metaphysical approach. Because of the nature of God and Heaven, "evil cannot abide in his presence." This means that no one with sin attached to them can enter into the gates of Heaven. When Christ was crucified, he carried the sins of the world on his body at the time so those sins were all crucified with him. Again, free will comes into play though. If you believe that Christ died for your sins and choose to pledge your life to him and his work, then your sins are forgiven and your sins are crucified with Christ. When you appear at the gates of Heaven, you are without sin and can "abide" in heaven.

Conversely, If you do not accept that sacrifice you will reach judgment with sin still attached to your being. Since you are not clean you cannot enter Heaven because sin cannot reside in Heaven. The question this raises then is why can't you apologize at the gates of Heaven and have your sin removed? The answer is that there are limits to God's forgiveness. He cared so much that He allowed his only son, the only creature that was born lived and died without sin to be tortured and killed for your sake and if you chose to not even accept him then you are not worthy of having your sins cleansed.


With that said, I am a former theology student. In my second year I wrote a paper on theological questions that no one had been able to answer for me. This question was one of them. Ultimately, that paper led me to fast and pray for weeks for clarity. In the end, my faith was gone and there was no response from Heaven to replenish my faith so I had to leave the church.

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Jynx

Check the Old Testament - many kings of Israel were told explicitly by god to destroy whole cities, killing everyone in them. if you wish a specific case, try one of the most famous - King David. according to the bible (books of samuel, i believe), he spent a goodly portion of his life at war in some way or another, and he is considered a hero, and almost certainly in heaven now.

so, my question is this: how can a man who lived by the old law so obviously break at least two of the major comandments (morder and adultery - he had lotsa wives and concubines) be in heaven?

btw, the above really is a serious question, and one i have yet to hear a good answer to.

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wilbjammin

Yes, I'm well aware of the situation Sisyphus is in, if you want to continue to talk about absurdity.

Why do you have to admit the existence of god if it is entirely possible to be a christian that doesn't believe in god and/or is doubting their beliefs. How many Christians are there that follow Christianity <i>just in case</i> it turns out that it all turns out to be true? And like I said, Kierkegaard says to believe in Christianity precisely because of its absurdity - and one step further, what is more absurd than following a religion of a god that you don't believe in?

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Innominate.

:::OshnSoul:::

Conversations with God- Neale Donald Walsch

That's what helped mefind my self and the understanding of "God". Amazing series....

:::OshnSoul:::

chavos

There is no heaven in the old testament. Sorry...but there isn't. And i won't tell you that smiting the amorites, or any of the other peoples who got smoted was an act comissioned by God. It's the unfortunate side effect of using a quasi-history as a holy text.

As for why anyone is accepted by God (I intentionally don't use the 'get to heaven' line), i would say that it is by grace, and grace alone. David lived a life with mistakes...but he also welcomed God's forgiveness when he realized he had done wrong. But why worry about David at all?

I've been told that we humans act as if we are competing for a limited amount of love. We don't beleive that if one person is forgiven, that we can be forgiven...that it is a zero sum game. and much of this has to do with the cosmology of the west-we all picture the world as Heaven, Hell and earth between them it seems; and so any thought on God is all tied up in the desire to avoid hell, even if we don't think it exists. David as an example subverts this point: he had no thought that he would be rewarded or punished in the afterlife, no matter WHAT he did. But he chose relationship with God, even if that path was difficult for him to follow, even if God had to send prophets to kick him and set him straight...not to earn heaven, but to have peace and joy on this earth.

Paeder

i only have one thing to add that helps me understand my misunderstandings of God: so high are my thoughts above your thoughts, and so high are my ways above your ways.
God said that somewhere in the bible, i cant pinpoint where though.

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Yakk

Could you please clarify?

Giltwist

This question begs another question with which I have tackled. If there is a line between those going to "heaven" and those going to "hell" what is it? For those of you who would answer beliving that Christ die for you sins, I present this conundrum. What of those who have never been given the opportunity to even hear about Christ or those, who do to some ambiguous incident, reject not God, per se, but the Christian church.

Well, there is a good precedent straight from the Bible to start. Romans 8, I beleive, says "The heavens declare the glory of God," and boy are they right. I don't know how you can look at the awesome complexity of the universe and think it all happened by pure chance. (For those of you who don't believe in any sort of divinity, look up St. Thomas Aquinas. He wrote some very compelling LOGICAL arguments about there simply having to be some sort of deity.) Now, suppose that is the method by which you have come to know of God. Well, alas, you still fall short of the believing in Christ line. And I put it to you this way, believers, do you believe God to be so petty that he would deny eternity to such a person? I say no. I like to say God gives second chances to those who don't get a first. This begs the further question, if God isn't petty to that extent, doesn't that mean he wouldn't be so petty as to demand you call him by his right name? I sure hope not because Christianity alone has a couple names for him, including Jehovah and Yahweh. So what about gender? Well he isn't really a he, now, is he? Sure, Jesus was male, but does the Father truly have male genitalia? I think not. So, what about, a non-Christian religion which believes in a monotheistic creator goddess? Also, lower gods. The ten commandsments say thou shalt have no other gods before me, not there are no other gods period. So what about polytheistic religions who still put the Creator first? My belief? It doesn't matter what you believe, so long as you worship the Creator above all other such possible deities and so long as you believe the Creator is also a Provider (for Christians, this means he Provided Christ as a means to heaven) and a Guide (for Christians this means god Guides us by his Spirit/that little nagging voice in the back of our head/etc)

Peace be with you,
G

ADM

So essentially, you could say that hell is majority of the world? Where the presense of God is almost non-existant?

:::OshnSoul:::

I agree.

And, Eleq: Mantis has a point. The answer, for one, isn't outside of you, it's not "out there somewhere", but there IS an answer, there always has been. But asking questions is the surefire way to see it. Just remember, listen to how you TRULY feel- really, deep down inside of you- past your thoughts, and what you have learned and been told, and put all of that aside and just feel what feels "right" to you. See the love in that feeling. That's your answer.

bermuDa

The original christian definition is the absence of god, so by that definition, we're already in hell (though some christians would argue that god is everywhere). I'm an atheist, and don't believe in heaven or hell, so I can't answer your question.

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Sledge

I don't mean to single you out, G (well, I do, but not for personal reasons). I've heard before your personal convictions about how believing in a Creator and being a moral person will earn you salvation, and I wanted to know what led you to this belief. Also, do you take it as literal truth, or just a good philosophical rule of thumb?

Sledge

It was explained to me when I was a Christian that the difference between Hell and Earth is that people on Earth still have the chance to come to know Christ. In Hell, it's too late, and no amount of repentance and wishing will earn you salvation.

Giltwist

You know me from elsewhere?

Anyway, how I came to this belief. To understand this, you must know about my past. Step one: I went to a Christian middle school. The Bible classes there gave me a very good grasp of the Christian faith from which my current beliefs stem. Right now, you could say I am somewhere in the middle of Christian, Gnostic (not agnostic), and Deist. Then, I had some time to grow up and develop my own ideas upon return to public school. It was around this time I read Carlos Casteneda. Speaking of reading, you must know that I am an absolutely voracious reader. I have probably read in excess of 300 novels averaging, at the very least, 400 pages. I read mostly fantasy and scence fiction. One of my first interactions with other religions than Christianity were through Norse and Celtic mythologies.

Around my junior year, I began to really get the urge to know who and what I was. A quest which is ever unending in this life, I might add. About this time I really discovered the potential of the internet as a spiritual expanding tool. I have spent time in several of the circles out there. I spent time with the Sanguinarians, thinking myself, perhaps, a psi-vampire. While I have some of the signs, I came to realise this was not the case. I went for some time without any luck.

Then, a friend introduced me to, don't laugh, the Jedi. This surprisingly large group of people partake in a philosophical belief system based upon the behavior of Jedi in the movies. I looked to the Light Side. I knew I didn't belong there. I did not and do not hold enough with their belief in "good" and "evil", among other things. I looked to the Dark Side, different than the Sith of the movies, and did not hold enough with their self-serving ideals. I found myself in a very misunderstood third column, the Shadow Jedi. Considered, by most, to simply be a blending of or indecision between the other two sides, I was fortunate to make contact with the very small number of individuals who saw it independant of the other two. The Shadow, the true Shadow, are about, amoung other things. Shadow realize the deific power of humanity's ability to choose. To this end, we seek to free ourselves from preconceptions and stigma, a difficult task. We believe that to rise above being human animals we have to make the world react to us, as opposed to us reacting to the world. After some time I broke from the main group and attempted about two unsuccessful retoolings eliminating the Star Wars terminology. Then I graduated high school and entered college.

In college, I began to take philosophy courses, mostly logic, but a little of true philosophy as well. This began to help me understand the need to not just have beliefs but reasoning behind belief. Over the years I have spen a great deal of thought on many subjects in the dark of my room as i lay waiting for sleep. By this time, I had accrued friends of many walks of life. Most of whom were not Christian. This is when I started to contemplate what God is really about. I really like Diane Duane's idea of heaven. In her Young Wizards series of novels, she refers to a place called Timeheart. The rule of thumb with Timeheart is this. Everything which is loved, lives on.

Recently, having gotten my beliefs fairly well ordered, I went to speak to my Reverend. To my absolute delight, he agreed with me in the belief that God will take into consideration the totality of the person, not just the cookie cutter belief system many Christians would say He would.

So thats a little about me.

Peace be with you,
G