Is god all knowing? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

filtherton · 11-12-2003, 11:17 AM

I'm curious. If god is indeed all knowing, what would be the point of god doing anything? Why create a universe out of nothing if you already know exactly what will happen for all of eternity down to the most minute detail? Obviously we can't count on god to actually provide a clue as to whether god is indeed omiscient, so i want some kind of logical basis for that idea.

Personally, i don't think god is all knowing, i think compared to our levels of comprehension and understanding god may just seem all knowing.

sixate · 11-12-2003, 12:36 PM

God's knowledge is created by theist's imaginations.

Mantus · 11-12-2003, 02:54 PM

I have asked myself the same question recently. There is no reason it seems. Even if god had an infinite imagination he would still have infinite knowledge of every consequence of his own actions, even imagined ones.

Of course one can assume that everything that god dreams/imagines actually happens. But that would make us totally insignificant since we are only one the infinity of thoughts that god has.

lordjeebus · 11-12-2003, 02:59 PM

I don't believe in a personified "God," but here's a thought:

Say there was an all-knowing God, who was aware of the position and trajectory of every particle in the universe for every moment that universe would exist. Even if that universe were not a physical reality, would not his imagining it automatically make it real? How could we tell if our reality were physically real, or merely prescripted interactions in the mind of the deity?

For that matter, if we built a device that kept track of every particle and interaction in a hypothetical (smaller than ours for the sake of having space to store the data) universe with life, would we ourselves be Gods of a new universe?

prosequence · 11-12-2003, 05:57 PM

Did you ask God if he was "all knowing"?

Eldaire · 11-12-2003, 06:04 PM

Everybody, especially those who believe in God, gets hung up on this one. I like to think of the universe, including all of time from the infinitely early to the infinitely late, as a single finite thing from God's eyes. Modern science promotes the belief that there could be 9 or 12 dimensions. If God was a 12th dimensional being, then our entire universe including time could appear as the 1st dimension appears to us... infinitely finite.

filtherton · 11-12-2003, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by prosequence
Did you ask God if he was "all knowing"?

Quote:

Originally posted by filtherton
Obviously we can't count on god to actually provide a clue as to whether god is indeed omiscient, so i want some kind of logical basis for that idea.

...obligatory

Didn't you post the exact same thing in a different thread?

Interesting idea eldaire, kind've like the idea that god can inherently percieve more than humanity. I don't know if that would make god omniscient though.

Quote:

God's knowledge is created by theist's imaginations.

mmmhmm, thanks for the enlightening addition to this discussion. Unfortunately, i wasn't aiming for a athiest v. spiritual flamefest so perhaps you'll create your own thread if you want to get one of those started.

Peryn · 11-12-2003, 11:17 PM

I guess i tend to think that he is "all knowing" at any given instant. Which i guess in his frame of time could be quite a while. I dont think he could exactly what will happen or when it will happen, but possibly know the consequences of every one of all the decisions that can be made. I think the idea of free choice is very strong and i believe whole heartedly in that, but not to the exlusion of gods power. I believe at any choice i make, he knows exactly what going to come of it. I dont it could work for "him" to know what will happen 100 years from now....there are too many decision to be made. What i do think, however, is the outcomes of every single choice that could be made throughout time. I think it is a hard concept for me to wrap my mind around, but following my logic, knowing the outcome of every single decision, his knowledge is infinite. He know every path our lives COULD take, but i dont think he knows what path it WILL take until we make our decisions.

Torinn · 11-12-2003, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by filtherton
If god is indeed all knowing, what would be the point of god doing anything? Why create a universe out of nothing if you already know exactly what will happen for all of eternity down to the most minute detail?

As a Christian, I have my own opinion on this, but must first say that I always feel strange trying to put human words, feelings, or logic into a infinitely superior being. With that said..... I personally feel that God IS love, and that the things he does are expressions of that love. If indeed he is a loving god he likely uses us to express it. I've always figured that knowing the future is fairly irrelevent with an emotion like love. If I tell you that the person you are married to will betray you or that your child will die, it will trouble you, but I doubt it will make you stop loving them and sacrificing for them (as a sign of your love). So, I guess what I would say is "why does knowing the future = inaction?"

empu · 11-13-2003, 12:18 AM

Maybe God had a choice between creating a Universe for which He would be all-knowing and creating one for which He would not be all-knowing? Maybe he couldn't decide, so he made both? Now if I were that God, into which of these two Universes would I choose to put empu? Hmmmm.

thejoker130 · 11-14-2003, 12:07 PM

I am an equal oportunity agnostic so I'm not really the person to ask.

But there was a man a long time ago that said "God is the great clockmaker" Meaning that he made the world and left everyone else to figure the thing out.

prosequence · 11-14-2003, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by filtherton
Obviously we can't count on god to actually provide a clue as to whether god is indeed omiscient,

Obviously??? Forgive me for my ignorance but it is not obvious to me. Why not?

meembo · 11-14-2003, 04:07 PM

the Platonic ideal of God would necessarily be all knowing, wouldn't it? Supreme goodness and power (knowledge)(as in the fruit of the tree of knowledge...see Genesis)

in the spirit of what thejoker130 said about God being the clockmaker, with us figuring it out....

We can't know if God is all-knowing, except from our POV. I think the "clock" is pretty magnificent, infinitely beyond my understanding. If there is a difference between what created the "clock" (reality) and what is "all-knowing", I don't know what it is, and I never will.

we assume order and purpose and meaning, ethically, spiritually, and otherwise. These thoughts, ideals comfort us, intellectually and emotionally. God being "all-knowing" I guess is the logical end to this thinking, but it's a red herring to attempt to prove these things we will never prove. God's existence just doesn't get sucked into an argument about what is "known", which is so subjective, anthropomorphic. In the end it can only be a matter within the framework of faith and hope, not science and reason. To accept the premise of all-knowing is to accept the premise of God in the first place.

11-12-2003, 11:17 AM	#1 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	Is god all knowing? I'm curious. If god is indeed all knowing, what would be the point of god doing anything? Why create a universe out of nothing if you already know exactly what will happen for all of eternity down to the most minute detail? Obviously we can't count on god to actually provide a clue as to whether god is indeed omiscient, so i want some kind of logical basis for that idea. Personally, i don't think god is all knowing, i think compared to our levels of comprehension and understanding god may just seem all knowing.

11-12-2003, 05:57 PM	#5 (permalink)
prosequence Psycho Location: YOUR MOM!!	Did you ask God if he was "all knowing"? __________________ And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

11-12-2003, 11:17 PM	#8 (permalink)
Peryn Junkie Location: San Diego, CA.	I guess i tend to think that he is "all knowing" at any given instant. Which i guess in his frame of time could be quite a while. I dont think he could exactly what will happen or when it will happen, but possibly know the consequences of every one of all the decisions that can be made. I think the idea of free choice is very strong and i believe whole heartedly in that, but not to the exlusion of gods power. I believe at any choice i make, he knows exactly what going to come of it. I dont it could work for "him" to know what will happen 100 years from now....there are too many decision to be made. What i do think, however, is the outcomes of every single choice that could be made throughout time. I think it is a hard concept for me to wrap my mind around, but following my logic, knowing the outcome of every single decision, his knowledge is infinite. He know every path our lives COULD take, but i dont think he knows what path it WILL take until we make our decisions. __________________ Dont cry kid, It's not your fault you suck.

11-14-2003, 12:07 PM	#11 (permalink)
thejoker130 Insane Location: slippery rock university AKA: The left ass cheek of the world	I am an equal oportunity agnostic so I'm not really the person to ask. But there was a man a long time ago that said "God is the great clockmaker" Meaning that he made the world and left everyone else to figure the thing out. __________________ WHAT MORE CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR IF NOT FOR THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? ------------------------------------- I like you. When the world is mine your death will be quick and painless.

11-14-2003, 04:07 PM	#13 (permalink)
meembo Junkie Location: Connecticut	the Platonic ideal of God would necessarily be all knowing, wouldn't it? Supreme goodness and power (knowledge)(as in the fruit of the tree of knowledge...see Genesis) in the spirit of what thejoker130 said about God being the clockmaker, with us figuring it out.... We can't know if God is all-knowing, except from our POV. I think the "clock" is pretty magnificent, infinitely beyond my understanding. If there is a difference between what created the "clock" (reality) and what is "all-knowing", I don't know what it is, and I never will. we assume order and purpose and meaning, ethically, spiritually, and otherwise. These thoughts, ideals comfort us, intellectually and emotionally. God being "all-knowing" I guess is the logical end to this thinking, but it's a red herring to attempt to prove these things we will never prove. God's existence just doesn't get sucked into an argument about what is "known", which is so subjective, anthropomorphic. In the end it can only be a matter within the framework of faith and hope, not science and reason. To accept the premise of all-knowing is to accept the premise of God in the first place. __________________ less I say, smarter I am

11-12-2003, 12:36 PM	#2 (permalink)
sixate Registered User Location: Somewhere in Ohio	God's knowledge is created by theist's imaginations.

11-12-2003, 02:54 PM	#3 (permalink)
Mantus lascivious	I have asked myself the same question recently. There is no reason it seems. Even if god had an infinite imagination he would still have infinite knowledge of every consequence of his own actions, even imagined ones. Of course one can assume that everything that god dreams/imagines actually happens. But that would make us totally insignificant since we are only one the infinity of thoughts that god has.

11-12-2003, 02:59 PM	#4 (permalink)
lordjeebus ‚±‚Ìˆó˜U‚ª–Ú‚É“ü‚ç‚Ê‚© Location: College	I don't believe in a personified "God," but here's a thought: Say there was an all-knowing God, who was aware of the position and trajectory of every particle in the universe for every moment that universe would exist. Even if that universe were not a physical reality, would not his imagining it automatically make it real? How could we tell if our reality were physically real, or merely prescripted interactions in the mind of the deity? For that matter, if we built a device that kept track of every particle and interaction in a hypothetical (smaller than ours for the sake of having space to store the data) universe with life, would we ourselves be Gods of a new universe?

11-12-2003, 06:04 PM	#6 (permalink)
Eldaire Loser Location: Davidson College, NC	Everybody, especially those who believe in God, gets hung up on this one. I like to think of the universe, including all of time from the infinitely early to the infinitely late, as a single finite thing from God's eyes. Modern science promotes the belief that there could be 9 or 12 dimensions. If God was a 12th dimensional being, then our entire universe including time could appear as the 1st dimension appears to us... infinitely finite.

11-13-2003, 12:18 AM	#10 (permalink)
empu Crazy	Maybe God had a choice between creating a Universe for which He would be all-knowing and creating one for which He would not be all-knowing? Maybe he couldn't decide, so he made both? Now if I were that God, into which of these two Universes would I choose to put empu? Hmmmm.