origins of christmas - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Midnight_Son · 10-30-2003, 12:06 PM

found this on the net, just wanted to share it with you all.

link:http://www.zenzibar.com/Articles/christmas.asp

Many of our modern Christmas traditions began hundreds of years before Christ was born. Some of these traditions date back more than 4000 years. The addition of Christ to the celebration of the winter solstice did not occur until 300 years after Christ died and as late as 1800, some devout Christian sects, like the Puritans, forbade their members from celebrating Christmas because it was considered a pagan holiday. So what is the history behind these traditions?

The Christmas tree is derived from several solstice traditions. The Romans decked their halls with garlands of laurel and placed candles in live trees to decorate for the celebration of Saturnalia. In Scandinavia, they hung apples from evergreen trees at the winder solstice to remind themselves that spring and summer will come again. The evergreen tree was the special plant of their sun god, Baldor.

The practice of exchanging gifts at a winter celebration is also pre-Christian and is from the Roman Saturnalia. They would exchange good-luck gifts called Stenae (lucky fruits). They also would have a big feast just like we do today.

Mistletoe is from an ancient Druid custom at the winter solstice. Mistletoe was considered a divine plant and it symbolized love and peace. The tradition of kissing under the mistletoe is Druid in origin.

The Scandinavian solstice traditions had a lot of influences on our celebration besides the hanging of ornaments on evergreen trees. Their ancient festival was called Yuletide and celebrated the return of the sun. One of their traditions was the Yule log. The log was the center of the trunk of a tree that was dragged to a large fireplace where it was supposed to burn for twelve days. From this comes the twelve days of Christmas.

Even the date of Christmas, December 25, was borrowed from another religion. At the time Christmas was created in AD 320, Mithraism was very popular. The early Christian church had gotten tired of their futile efforts to stop people celebrating the solstice and the birthday of Mithras, the Persian sun god. Mithras’ birthday was December 25. So the pope at the time decided to make Jesus’ official birthday coincide with Mithras’ birthday. No one knows what time of year Jesus was actually born but there is evidence to suggest that it was in midsummer.

So, if you are celebrating any of the western traditions of Christmas this year, remember that you are actually enjoying the rituals and activities of several ancient religions whose traditions have been borrowed by the Christians over the years for the celebration of the birth of Christ.

Happy Holidays!

Doesn't Matter · 10-30-2003, 12:21 PM

That kinda ruins my christmas.

thanks

sipsake · 10-30-2003, 12:43 PM

Good thing Easter traditions are 100% Christian...

where'd I put my sarcasm tag?

yournamehere · 10-30-2003, 12:45 PM

There's no reason for it to ruin your Christmas.

Christianity has always accepted pagan ond other rituals to be associated with its holidays in order to give a better comfort level to its converts. <i>"Oh - you like to exchange gifts? We do that, too - you'll feel right at home with us."</i>

Think of it as a "melting pot" kind of thing.
The best of all worlds and great PR

Doesn't Matter · 10-30-2003, 01:01 PM

Yeah, I guess...But cant Christians be original in anything?

Most the religion came from crazy people who had a 'chat with god'

I dunno...Christmas is only good cuz I get stuff, not because what it symbolizes.

sipsake · 10-30-2003, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doesn't Matter
I dunno...Christmas is only good cuz I get stuff, not because what it symbolizes.

Even if you're not a Christian or a religious person in general, isn't there anything about the season that appeals to you?

I've always liked the following quote from "A Christmas Carol"

"But I am sure I have always thought of Christmas time, when it has come round -- apart from the veneration due to its sacred name and origin, if anything belonging to it can be apart from that -- as a good time; a kind, forgiving, charitable, pleasant time: the only time I know of, in the long calendar of the year, when men and women seem by one consent to open their shut-up hearts freely, and to think of people below them as if they really were fellow-passengers to the grave, and not another race of creatures bound on other journeys. "

bermuDa · 10-30-2003, 09:32 PM

the solstice used to be celebrated with a giant mardi gras-like celebration, a far cry from the puritan somber holiday it became.

gwr_gwir · 10-31-2003, 10:17 AM

as far as I know, cnor, all of those points-traditions are true. also, bermuDa - think about the difference in cultures, from the Druids and the Greeks, to the Puritans. Massively different influences, different times, and different beliefs. It's a matter of adaptation and interpretation, for the most part.

Lebell · 10-31-2003, 02:07 PM

There are those who still feel that Christians should not celebrate Christmas because of the pagan associations but I believe that it is the intention of the believer that determines the meaning of the Holiday.

Killconey · 10-31-2003, 04:10 PM

This may be a little off subject, but does anyone else think that it is absurd that many Christians still vehemently oppose Halloween because it is pagan, yet can't wait until December 25th to celebrate Christmas? Do Christians not like Halloween simply because they couldn't find a way to plagerize it?

GakFace · 10-31-2003, 04:21 PM

I think halloween kicks ass! And I'm a christian

Midnight_Son · 11-01-2003, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Killconey
This may be a little off subject, but does anyone else think that it is absurd that many Christians still vehemently oppose Halloween because it is pagan, yet can't wait until December 25th to celebrate Christmas? Do Christians not like Halloween simply because they couldn't find a way to plagerize it?

I find it very absurd......Oct. 31st started as a Catholic Holiday, "all Saints day" (also a celtic festival to scare off evil spirts) and Christmas started as a pagan holiday.......funny how things get twisted over time.

I think if people would study history a little more the world would be a much better place.

gwr_gwir · 11-01-2003, 01:42 PM

I was under the impression that Nov. 1 was All Saints Day, and what we know now as Halloween, started (in the Catholic religion, anyway) as All Hallows Eve, the fasting before All Saints Day; before that, in the Drudic tradition, as Samhain, and the costumes were (symbolically) to scare the evil spirits away for another year, just as Beltane was a renewal of the bond between king and country, symbolized by the orgies and feasts. Though on the note that "If people would study history a little more the world would be a much better place", cnor, people twist history as they see fit, in their writings of it. If people studied the most objective, comprehensive version of history they could find, and realize that history repeats itself, then indeed, the world would be a better place.

Killconey · 11-02-2003, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cnor
I find it very absurd......Oct. 31st started as a Catholic Holiday, "all Saints day" (also a celtic festival to scare off evil spirts) and Christmas started as a pagan holiday.......funny how things get twisted over time.

I think if people would study history a little more the world would be a much better place.

Good point, but study harder. All Saints Day is now and has always been November 1st. All Hallows Eve is the night before All Saints Day. You are absolutely right though, the Catholics did start both of them.

irateplatypus · 11-02-2003, 06:51 PM

It doesn't bother me that people point out that many of the Christmas traditions have been borrowed from ancient pagan ritual. What does bother me is how you'll hear sappy TV Christmas specials say...

The true meaning of Christmas is... loving your fellow man, world peace, fellowship with family/friends, a time to give back.

Thats not to say you can't do all that and still celebrate Christ's birth.

No, the true meaning of Christmas, as it is intended to be celebrated in our day and age, is to celebrate the birth of Christ. If you prefer a solstice celebration instead, go for it... but call it something else. If some choose not to celebrate Christ's birth and participate in some of the wonderful ritual, that perfectly fine. Just don't use the word "Christmas" and hijack something that others hold sacred to fit your own sensibilities.

Midnight_Son · 11-03-2003, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by irateplatypus
It doesn't bother me that people point out that many of the Christmas traditions have been borrowed from ancient pagan ritual. What does bother me is how you'll hear sappy TV Christmas specials say...

The true meaning of Christmas is... loving your fellow man, world peace, fellowship with family/friends, a time to give back.

Thats not to say you can't do all that and still celebrate Christ's birth.

No, the true meaning of Christmas, as it is intended to be celebrated in our day and age, is to celebrate the birth of Christ. If you prefer a solstice celebration instead, go for it... but call it something else. If some choose not to celebrate Christ's birth and participate in some of the wonderful ritual, that perfectly fine. Just don't use the word "Christmas" and hijack something that others hold sacred to fit your own sensibilities.

That’s one of the most hypocritical statements I’ve ever read.

irateplatypus · 11-03-2003, 01:56 PM

cnor, any chance you can develop your insult into an argument or insightful criticism?

sipsake · 11-03-2003, 02:12 PM

Maybe cnor's point is, since Christmas is a holiday that has borrowed many of it's traditions from non-Christian sources, it seems somewhat hypocritical to insist that someone would be hijacking Christmas if they didn't view it from an exclusively Christian point of view.

crayzeeredhead · 11-03-2003, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sipsake
Good thing Easter traditions are 100% Christian...

where'd I put my sarcasm tag?

sorry sweetie , Easter is pagan also!! it began as Eostre!!

sipsake · 11-03-2003, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by crayzeeredhead
sorry sweetie , Easter is pagn also!! it began as Eostre!!

Oh great...next you'll be telling me that Mother's Day was simply a marketing gimmick.

sarcasm...is it /sarcasm or /sarc

irateplatypus · 11-03-2003, 02:50 PM

sipsake,

i see what you are saying (and perhaps what cnor is saying), but the fundamental difference is that we don't name Christmas as a solstice celebration or Saturnalia. We can say that the intent of "Holiday Generica" (for sake of argument) is a time of loving widgets, but we can't say that of Christmas. It already has its own purpose. Lets not confuse the ritual from the intent. If there were no Christmas trees, or gift giving, or mistletoe... it would still be Christmas. An African bushman who wants to use Dec 25 to celebrate Christ's birth w/out our trappings is doing so just as sincerely. This just gets back to how the baggage of Christmas distracts and distorts its true meaning.

tecoyah · 11-03-2003, 06:53 PM

I must say , as someone who celebrates the pagan holidays, that all the humbug "christmas "creates does seem to take most of the supposedly real joy out of it all. Think I'll just stick to celebrating all that seasonal stuff, winter and spring and all that.Seems to have a bit more staying power than birthdays.

Darkeryet · 11-05-2003, 08:11 AM

When my family and I decided that christianity was not for us we researched all the holidays we wanted to keep. Christmas we have switched out for Saturnalia.
http://www.circlesanctuary.org/pholi...naliaInfo.html

So we say happy Saturnalia now instead of merry christmas.

Have a good one!

rogue49 · 11-05-2003, 08:56 AM

No official religions holidays are original.
For the most part they are all "adopted" from significant timeperiods of the year that are celebrated.

The solstices, harvests, plantings, changes in season, etc.
These have been used since ANCIENT times at the very beginnings of civilization and even before.
When humans started noticing patterns and the cycles of life and their environment.

Rarely, are a religion's holidays representing something specific,
as they have been absorbed into various cultures.

sipsake · 11-05-2003, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by irateplatypus
sipsake,

i see what you are saying (and perhaps what cnor is saying), but the fundamental difference is that we don't name Christmas as a solstice celebration or Saturnalia.

I get where you're going and to an extent I agree. "Christmas" is the traditional day set aside by Christians for the celebration of Christ's birth.

But it seems to me there is some grey area here.

For example, who is the "we" you refer to? Not all Christian denominations celebrate Christmas. And, as has been pointed out, many of the traditions we most closely associate with Christmas have origins outside of the faith.

Christmas is what we bring to it. For you and I it's a celebration of an extraordinary life. For others it may be a time of family and reunion and joy and peace and all the others things the television networks tell us the season is about.

Christ never viewed himself as more important than the message he was bringing. A message of universal peace, love, forgiveness and salvation. So, I have a hard time condemning those who, with an honest heart, celebrate the ideals contained in the message of Christ if not his birth.

Midnight_Son · 11-05-2003, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by irateplatypus
sipsake,

i see what you are saying (and perhaps what cnor is saying), but the fundamental difference is that we don't name Christmas as a solstice celebration or Saturnalia. We can say that the intent of "Holiday Generica" (for sake of argument) is a time of loving widgets, but we can't say that of Christmas. It already has its own purpose. Lets not confuse the ritual from the intent. If there were no Christmas trees, or gift giving, or mistletoe... it would still be Christmas. An African bushman who wants to use Dec 25 to celebrate Christ's birth w/out our trappings is doing so just as sincerely. This just gets back to how the baggage of Christmas distracts and distorts its true meaning.

Dec 25th's true meaning has nothing to do with Christ or Christianity..in fact, it wasn’t until 336 AD that Christians moved Christ’s birthday to this date. I completely understand that for many this has become a holy day to celebrate the birth of Christ….I’m not disputing that, nor was that the intention of this thread.
My point is that by placing the old “jesus is the reason for the season” bumper sticker on your car, you’re showing ignorance in the fact that you don’t know the history of the world you live in nor do you understand the history of your own religion. (And my use of “you” and “your” is meant to be taken generalized way, not as a personal attack.)

John Henry · 12-01-2003, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cnor
Dec 25th's true meaning has nothing to do with Christ or Christianity..in fact, it wasn’t until 336 AD that Christians moved Christ’s birthday to this date. I completely understand that for many this has become a holy day to celebrate the birth of Christ….I’m not disputing that, nor was that the intention of this thread.
My point is that by placing the old “jesus is the reason for the season” bumper sticker on your car, you’re showing ignorance in the fact that you don’t know the history of the world you live in nor do you understand the history of your own religion. (And my use of “you” and “your” is meant to be taken generalized way, not as a personal attack.)

But if you believe all the God stuff, then...

Jesus=God=Reason for all things

All things={..., The Season,...)

=>Jesus is the Reason for The Seaon.

The bumper stickers are therefore logically consistent with the beliefs of their owners, although they are based on arguably flawed postulates.

10-30-2003, 12:06 PM	#1 (permalink)
Midnight_Son The Cover Doesn't Match The Book Location: in a van down by the river	origins of christmas found this on the net, just wanted to share it with you all. link:http://www.zenzibar.com/Articles/christmas.asp Many of our modern Christmas traditions began hundreds of years before Christ was born. Some of these traditions date back more than 4000 years. The addition of Christ to the celebration of the winter solstice did not occur until 300 years after Christ died and as late as 1800, some devout Christian sects, like the Puritans, forbade their members from celebrating Christmas because it was considered a pagan holiday. So what is the history behind these traditions? The Christmas tree is derived from several solstice traditions. The Romans decked their halls with garlands of laurel and placed candles in live trees to decorate for the celebration of Saturnalia. In Scandinavia, they hung apples from evergreen trees at the winder solstice to remind themselves that spring and summer will come again. The evergreen tree was the special plant of their sun god, Baldor. The practice of exchanging gifts at a winter celebration is also pre-Christian and is from the Roman Saturnalia. They would exchange good-luck gifts called Stenae (lucky fruits). They also would have a big feast just like we do today. Mistletoe is from an ancient Druid custom at the winter solstice. Mistletoe was considered a divine plant and it symbolized love and peace. The tradition of kissing under the mistletoe is Druid in origin. The Scandinavian solstice traditions had a lot of influences on our celebration besides the hanging of ornaments on evergreen trees. Their ancient festival was called Yuletide and celebrated the return of the sun. One of their traditions was the Yule log. The log was the center of the trunk of a tree that was dragged to a large fireplace where it was supposed to burn for twelve days. From this comes the twelve days of Christmas. Even the date of Christmas, December 25, was borrowed from another religion. At the time Christmas was created in AD 320, Mithraism was very popular. The early Christian church had gotten tired of their futile efforts to stop people celebrating the solstice and the birthday of Mithras, the Persian sun god. Mithras’ birthday was December 25. So the pope at the time decided to make Jesus’ official birthday coincide with Mithras’ birthday. No one knows what time of year Jesus was actually born but there is evidence to suggest that it was in midsummer. So, if you are celebrating any of the western traditions of Christmas this year, remember that you are actually enjoying the rituals and activities of several ancient religions whose traditions have been borrowed by the Christians over the years for the celebration of the birth of Christ. Happy Holidays! __________________ SWM, tattooed, seeks meaningful tits and beer. Enjoys biker mags, pornography, and Sunday morning walks to the liquor store. Winners of erotic hot dog eating contests given priority. Last edited by Midnight_Son; 11-05-2003 at 01:05 PM..

10-30-2003, 12:43 PM	#3 (permalink)
sipsake Psycho Location: Memphis	Good thing Easter traditions are 100% Christian... where'd I put my sarcasm tag? __________________ When life hands you a lemon, say "Oh yeah, I like lemons. What else you got?" Henry Rollins

10-30-2003, 12:45 PM	#4 (permalink)
yournamehere Invisible Location: tentative, at best	There's no reason for it to ruin your Christmas. Christianity has always accepted pagan ond other rituals to be associated with its holidays in order to give a better comfort level to its converts. <i>"Oh - you like to exchange gifts? We do that, too - you'll feel right at home with us."</i> Think of it as a "melting pot" kind of thing. The best of all worlds and great PR __________________ If you want to avoid 95% of internet spelling errors: "If your ridiculous pants are too loose, you're definitely going to lose them. Tell your two loser friends over there that they're going to lose theirs, too." It won't hurt your fashion sense, either. Last edited by yournamehere; 10-31-2003 at 11:04 AM..

10-30-2003, 09:32 PM	#7 (permalink)
bermuDa don't ignore this--> Location: CA	the solstice used to be celebrated with a giant mardi gras-like celebration, a far cry from the puritan somber holiday it became. __________________ I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

10-31-2003, 10:17 AM	#8 (permalink)
gwr_gwir Crazy	as far as I know, cnor, all of those points-traditions are true. also, bermuDa - think about the difference in cultures, from the Druids and the Greeks, to the Puritans. Massively different influences, different times, and different beliefs. It's a matter of adaptation and interpretation, for the most part. __________________ Being intelligent is not a felony. But most societies evaluate it as at least a misdemeanor. -- Robert Heinlein

10-30-2003, 12:21 PM	#2 (permalink)
Doesn't Matter Banned	That kinda ruins my christmas. thanks

10-30-2003, 01:01 PM	#5 (permalink)
Doesn't Matter Banned	Yeah, I guess...But cant Christians be original in anything? Most the religion came from crazy people who had a 'chat with god' I dunno...Christmas is only good cuz I get stuff, not because what it symbolizes.

10-31-2003, 02:07 PM	#9 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	There are those who still feel that Christians should not celebrate Christmas because of the pagan associations but I believe that it is the intention of the believer that determines the meaning of the Holiday. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

10-31-2003, 04:10 PM	#10 (permalink)
Killconey Crazy Location: Various places in the Midwest, all depending on when I'm posting.	This may be a little off subject, but does anyone else think that it is absurd that many Christians still vehemently oppose Halloween because it is pagan, yet can't wait until December 25th to celebrate Christmas? Do Christians not like Halloween simply because they couldn't find a way to plagerize it? __________________ Look out for numbers two and up and they'll look out for you.

10-31-2003, 04:21 PM	#11 (permalink)
GakFace Go Ninja, Go Ninja Go!! Location: IN, USA	I think halloween kicks ass! And I'm a christian __________________ RoboBlaster: Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it.

11-01-2003, 01:42 PM	#13 (permalink)
gwr_gwir Crazy	I was under the impression that Nov. 1 was All Saints Day, and what we know now as Halloween, started (in the Catholic religion, anyway) as All Hallows Eve, the fasting before All Saints Day; before that, in the Drudic tradition, as Samhain, and the costumes were (symbolically) to scare the evil spirits away for another year, just as Beltane was a renewal of the bond between king and country, symbolized by the orgies and feasts. Though on the note that "If people would study history a little more the world would be a much better place", cnor, people twist history as they see fit, in their writings of it. If people studied the most objective, comprehensive version of history they could find, and realize that history repeats itself, then indeed, the world would be a better place. __________________ Being intelligent is not a felony. But most societies evaluate it as at least a misdemeanor. -- Robert Heinlein

11-02-2003, 06:51 PM	#15 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	It doesn't bother me that people point out that many of the Christmas traditions have been borrowed from ancient pagan ritual. What does bother me is how you'll hear sappy TV Christmas specials say... The true meaning of Christmas is... loving your fellow man, world peace, fellowship with family/friends, a time to give back. Thats not to say you can't do all that and still celebrate Christ's birth. No, the true meaning of Christmas, as it is intended to be celebrated in our day and age, is to celebrate the birth of Christ. If you prefer a solstice celebration instead, go for it... but call it something else. If some choose not to celebrate Christ's birth and participate in some of the wonderful ritual, that perfectly fine. Just don't use the word "Christmas" and hijack something that others hold sacred to fit your own sensibilities. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

11-03-2003, 01:56 PM	#17 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	cnor, any chance you can develop your insult into an argument or insightful criticism? __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

11-03-2003, 02:12 PM	#18 (permalink)
sipsake Psycho Location: Memphis	Maybe cnor's point is, since Christmas is a holiday that has borrowed many of it's traditions from non-Christian sources, it seems somewhat hypocritical to insist that someone would be hijacking Christmas if they didn't view it from an exclusively Christian point of view. __________________ When life hands you a lemon, say "Oh yeah, I like lemons. What else you got?" Henry Rollins

11-03-2003, 02:50 PM	#21 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	sipsake, i see what you are saying (and perhaps what cnor is saying), but the fundamental difference is that we don't name Christmas as a solstice celebration or Saturnalia. We can say that the intent of "Holiday Generica" (for sake of argument) is a time of loving widgets, but we can't say that of Christmas. It already has its own purpose. Lets not confuse the ritual from the intent. If there were no Christmas trees, or gift giving, or mistletoe... it would still be Christmas. An African bushman who wants to use Dec 25 to celebrate Christ's birth w/out our trappings is doing so just as sincerely. This just gets back to how the baggage of Christmas distracts and distorts its true meaning. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

11-03-2003, 06:53 PM	#22 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	I must say , as someone who celebrates the pagan holidays, that all the humbug "christmas "creates does seem to take most of the supposedly real joy out of it all. Think I'll just stick to celebrating all that seasonal stuff, winter and spring and all that.Seems to have a bit more staying power than birthdays. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

11-05-2003, 08:11 AM	#23 (permalink)
Darkeryet Upright	When my family and I decided that christianity was not for us we researched all the holidays we wanted to keep. Christmas we have switched out for Saturnalia. http://www.circlesanctuary.org/pholi...naliaInfo.html So we say happy Saturnalia now instead of merry christmas. Have a good one! __________________ Darkeryet

11-05-2003, 08:56 AM	#24 (permalink)
rogue49 Loser	No official religions holidays are original. For the most part they are all "adopted" from significant timeperiods of the year that are celebrated. The solstices, harvests, plantings, changes in season, etc. These have been used since ANCIENT times at the very beginnings of civilization and even before. When humans started noticing patterns and the cycles of life and their environment. Rarely, are a religion's holidays representing something specific, as they have been absorbed into various cultures.