Midnight_Son

So…..How many people have died and how many wars have been fought in Satan’s name?

just "throwing" this out to see what kind of comments I get

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numist

none - everyone always claims god is on their side because no one I know particularly wants to be represented by Satan, because Satan is supposed to be the root of all evil and temptation in the world.

Even Satanism isnt actually made on being evil, its made on true hedonism, which is sometimes good sometimes bad for other people, so it is also a misnomer.

Eldaire

Satan might blur the vision of those who are responsible for these wars. He wants them to be convinced that they are fighting for God, because then they will not question their actions. However, (and this is all assuming you believe in God and Satan), be sure that Satan is the one truly responsible for these wars and these deaths.

chavos

the greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world he did not exist.
-The Usual Suspects

How many wars have been fought for greed, hate, mistrust, and fear? Rarely do people acknowledge they are serving evil...

Food Eater Lad

True Satanists see Satan as the giver of knowledge and provider of free will.

If you remember the story of Adam and Eve, God wanted his humans to live like animals, dumb and slavish to his will. God forbid humans to eat of the tree of knowedge and theirfore they were to be stupid, and have no choice. This was god's plan.
The serpent tempted Eve, and the rest is history.

Without the serpent, mankind would still be stupid slaves. It was Satan that gave human's the gift of intellegence and the ability to decide right from wrong.

I find it ironic that the Christian, Jewish, and Islamic churchs all agree that without choice, following god is meaningless. A person has to choose to follow god. This means that the greates part of a person's faith was provided not by god, but by Satan. This means with out Satan, faith is meaningless.


Therefor, Satan is good.

raeanna74

I heard at one time that Satan and Jesus were actually brothers. They are vying for superiority and neither has supreme power over the other. That is the reason for the constant battle between to forces in nature and in the world. Supposely Jesus has tried to dupe people into believing that he is supreme already. In the end whoever has the most and is able to overcome the other will be the victor. Just something else to think about.

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Killconey

I think that Satan definitely would consider himself to be a good guy because no one ever really thinks of themselves as the villain. Maybe he sees himself as a spiritual revolutionist or a liberator of souls.

I would definitely have to disagree strongly with Food Eater Lad, though. Obviously choice and free will were a part of God's plan from the start because God put the tree there. If he wanted people to be like the animals he: A, wouldn't have created a Tree of Knowledge to ruin his plan and B, wouldn't have made man in his own image. The word used for image in Genesis not only describes the physical form, but also the mind and soul. In order to be made after the mind and soul of God, mankind would need free will. That was the purpose of the tree.

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Food Eater Lad

Then why did god forbid mankind to eat of the tree if he wanted them to have free will?

sipsake

Because only when there is an option to dissent is there the possibility of free will.

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Food Eater Lad

So god wanted disobiedience? So not listening to god is good?

sipsake

No, listening to God is good, choosing to listen to God is even better.

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When life hands you a lemon, say "Oh yeah, I like lemons. What else you got?"

Henry Rollins

Food Eater Lad

Then why did god not want humans to be able to make that choice?

Mojo_PeiPei

I believe that is the Mormon school of though.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Food Eater Lad

Dont get me started on Mormons.....gheess they are in the Scientology class of strange.

Killconey

Food Eater Lad, I don't mean to be rude but are you reading the same posts the me and sipsake are? The very fact that God put a tree there and told them not to eat from it doesn't eliminate free will. It created free will. If God hadn't put something in the garden that Adam and Eve weren't meant to do, how on Earth could they possibly freely choose to obey or disobey him?

Whether or not listening to God is good depends on what perspective you take. If you believe that Satan isn't the bad guy then not listening to God is very good. If not, then it is bad.

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Look out for numbers two and up and they'll look out for you.

Food Eater Lad

So a god that creates humans, and tells them to be stupid and without knowedge gave them free will? People dont have free will when they are stupid. They didnt know the consequences of their actions, nor who god was other than a guy with a booming voice, nor what anything meant untill after they ate the apple. Remember they were stupid untill Satan gave them intellegence, so how can you say they had free will?

Do you believe then that a severly retarded person can be held accountable for his actions in say, a murder trial? Remember, your argument says they can stand fit for execution since they have free will.

sipsake

You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that God created man as stupid and lacking free will. If your going to buy into the garden of eden story, then you need to go back a few chapters and read where God created man in his own image. According to your arguments God would therefore be a being with no intelligence and lacking free will.

Satan didn't give mankind intelligence. Satan tempted man, trying to drive a wedge between God and his creation. In no way are Satan's actions to be seen as benevolent towards man, his aim in the story was to sow discord between God and man, to attempt to pervert God's creation.

Satan was a pissy eliteist who threw a major temper tantrum when daddy decided to have another child. He led a revolt and was soundly thrashed. Lacking the true power he so wantonly desired, he therefore spends an eternity attempting to destroy that which was innocent at the start to try and get back at a father who refused to give him power and status in the universe satan thought he deserved.

You can stick with your revisionist view of Satan as being just another misunderstood hero if you like. But that is certainly not the way he is viewed in Judeo-Christian mythology.

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When life hands you a lemon, say "Oh yeah, I like lemons. What else you got?"

Henry Rollins

Midnight_Son

Interesting thoughts, however I’m wondering how this thread I created turned into a “free-will” debate…..strange. perhaps you believers should study your book alittle more and come up with some better angles.
He’s my thought, first I do not believe in God, nor do I believe in Satan.
Looking through history I find that Gods fan club has done an exuberant amount of damage to others that didn’t share their beliefs. Yet you stand and says it was Satans hand at work…..what a handy scapegoat you have there. We kill in the name of the invisible man….and blame it on the the other invisible man. How cute.

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sipsake

Hehe...yeah. Your angle is so very original as well. How terribly hip, an atheist who denegrates faith and wants to use wars in the name of bad theology to indict an entire religion.

Take another look at history and you might also find that "God's fan club" has done much more to benefit society. Francis of Assissi, Thomas Jefferson, Ghandi, Mother Theresa, Dr. Martin Luther King, John Wesley, Abraham Lincoln...

There are even more members of "God's fan club" whose names you wouldn't recognise but who dedicate their lives to making the world a better place. They feed the hungry, care for the sick, fight against social injustice, each following a call their faith brought to light.

Have you counted the number of "God's fan club" who consider themselves pacifists because of their faith? The number of people of faith who have protested war and the use of violence?

It seems you are willing to use vast generalizations based on a mistaken understanding of Christian theology to condemn "God's fan club." How "cute" indeed.

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When life hands you a lemon, say "Oh yeah, I like lemons. What else you got?"

Henry Rollins

Midnight_Son

?

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SWM, tattooed, seeks meaningful tits and beer. Enjoys biker mags, pornography, and Sunday morning walks to the liquor store. Winners of erotic hot dog eating contests given priority.

Killconey

Please consider bashing everyone equally. There were two different sides to making this an accidental "free will" debate and only one of them was quoting the Bible.

As to the general purpose of this thread, I would agree with you that many people have done horrible things in the name of God. Nowhere will you ever find me supporting slavery or the Crusades or the destruction and persecution of non-Christians in the name of God. But have you ever considered that those "Christians" who committed those acts weren't really obeying the will of the God they claimed to serve? There are many people who, just as you said, only serve God so far as they can use the invisible man to achieve their goals.

Does that necessarily make Satan the good guy or reduce those Christian's who want to honestly change our world for the better wrong?

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Look out for numbers two and up and they'll look out for you.

Midnight_Son

if you'd like to "name drop" I can do that also.

"This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no [organized] religion in it"
John Adams

"I do not see how it is possible for an intelligent human being to conclude that the Song of Solomon is the work of God, and that the tragedy of Lear was the work of an uninspired man."
Robert Ingersoll

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."
Thomas Jefferson (Letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787)

"It ain't the parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand."
Mark Twain

"Our ignorance is God; what we know is science."
Robert Ingersoll

"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State."
Thomas Jefferson (in a letter to S. Kercheval, 1810)

"Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense."
Voltaire (Philosophical Dictionary, 1764)

"I do think the Roman Catholic religion is a disease of the mind which has a particular epidemiology similar to that of a virus... Religion is a terrific meme. That's right. But that doesn't make it true and I care about what's true. Smallpox virus is a terrific virus. It does its job magnificently well. That doesn't mean that it's a good thing. It doesn't mean that I don't want to see it stamped out."
Richard Dawkins (Interviewed in: Sceptic vol 3, no 4, 1995)

"Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions, and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seem to me to be empty and devoid of meaning."
Albert Einstein

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
Albert Einstein

"If Atheism is a religion, then health is a disease!"
Clark Adams

"If Jesus had been killed 20 years ago, Catholic school children would be wearing little Electric Chairs around their necks instead of crosses"
Lenny Bruce

"If all the historic books of the Bible were blotted from the memory of mankind, nothing of value would be lost.."
Robert Ingersoll

__________________
SWM, tattooed, seeks meaningful tits and beer. Enjoys biker mags, pornography, and Sunday morning walks to the liquor store. Winners of erotic hot dog eating contests given priority.

sipsake

What...that's the best you can do? You've missed the entire point of this discussion. Tell me what you believe.

My point wasn't to namedrop. Please read it again. The point was you indict a religion based on a false premise. You view only one side of an arguement. I hoped to make clear that in spite of your belief that religion causes death and mayhem, it is also responsible for a great deal of good.

Cummon man, show me the errors in my arguement. Don't just throw a bunch of quotes from others at me, show me why the good done in the name of God isn't enough to counter the evil you see in faith.

__________________
When life hands you a lemon, say "Oh yeah, I like lemons. What else you got?"

Henry Rollins

Food Eater Lad

So if man was intellegent before he ate the apple, why did he become intellegent AFTER he ate the apple? Why was there a magic tree that gave out intellegence?

The fact of this fairy tale is this. Man was dumb and god wanted him to stay that way. Satan tricked the dumb man, and that dumb man became smart.

As punishment for becoming smart, god gave man death. And then the church goes on and says that free will is man's greatest gift. Sounds hokey to me.

Midnight_Son

I’ll give you what you want. I’m also going to open myself up and I expect to receive a certain amount of respect for doing so. Perhaps a little off topic but your no-doubt wondering where my hatred stems from….so, here you go.

I come from a strong Christian (four-square) family. My parents dragged me to church every Sunday morning and every Wednesday night. My Father devoted his life to the church, he lead songs at Sunday morning worship and was always there if a member of the church family needed him. He would spend countless hours volunteering for the benefit of the church.

Sounds like a model guy doesn’t he? The perfect Christian man, He didn’t swear, smoke, drink, ect. He was a model Christian…..Followed the doctrine to a tee. There was nothing hypocritical about anything he did.

My father died three years ago from cancer. It was truly a sad day…there was standing room only in the church for the service. You see he help so many, and never asked anything in return.

So why am I bothered by all of this?
Because my father was never home. I never went fishing with my dad, I never went hunting with my dad. I never did anything with my father because he was so busy helping out his fellow man he lost sight of his own responsibilities as a human being.

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SWM, tattooed, seeks meaningful tits and beer. Enjoys biker mags, pornography, and Sunday morning walks to the liquor store. Winners of erotic hot dog eating contests given priority.

sipsake

I'm sorry for your loss. It sounds like your father was a remarkable man.

I can't explain or justify the actions of your father. And I would in no way want to denigrate your feelings or memories.

Your father must have touched many people during his life. One of those people who try to live their beliefs. Why that didn't extend to his family, I wouldn't presume to guess. But, I know it has to hurt.

I don't know you or your situation well enough to say anything that you might find helpful. And I would feel awkward trying to expound on what lessons there may be. There's a lot of pain there, and I don't think you're wrong for feeling the way you do. Having a child of my own, it's given me something to ponder. Thank you for sharing your story.

__________________
When life hands you a lemon, say "Oh yeah, I like lemons. What else you got?"

Henry Rollins

GakFace

I'm no mormon, but I think it was more of....

Well whether or not brothers, no clue. but
God was trying to decide upon whether to give man free will or a set path in life. See the Set Path would bring you to Heaven, where Free Will could risk elsewhere. Now Jesus Opted for Free Will, but Lucifer REALLY WANTED it to be Fate. His reason was that he wanted everyone to get to heaven, as heaven was awesome. Well he got too much into this and went a little too far. Until he was inevitable turned into the "enemy" and thrown into hell, while Jesus's idea won first prize.

Now I KNOW I didn't state that exactly right. SO I would appreciate a mormon to set me straight. But this is more along the lines, I believe.

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RoboBlaster:
Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it.

Sunrise

Reading that, it sound as if lucifer and hell and the idea of it being evil and fire and torture, etc doesn't go.

tecoyah

I have always had a difficult time understanding the need for an organization, in order to show respect to a deity. I can only guess that people form these groups to increase in power. Would it be, that power is needed to sway others who may wish to show respect to the "wrong" god.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Killconey

Tecoyah, perhaps the original purpose for organization came from the fact that many early religions were formed as a way to protect that civilization from the wrath of an elemental or natural deity. The organization of all the people to worship and sacrifice would show the sincerity of the people.

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Look out for numbers two and up and they'll look out for you.

Telethon

Heh, I think Satan must exist in order for people to recognize God. How can you see the stars without darkness?

tecoyah

That does make sense for ancient religious systems, I guess I just don't see the reasoning for it now, other than strength in numbers. At times the churches seem to crave hatred.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

GakFace

If you were thrown down by God, wouldn't you be pissed too? He got thrown out for pressing his ideas to hard.... I'd be pissed.... He is. But I seriously need someone who has heard this more than just a few times to make it sound perfect.... and completely. I'm sure I left something out.

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RoboBlaster:
Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it.