CSflim

Ok, I will illustrate the fallacy of that argument with a very simple parallel argument.

1. This post exists.
2. Therefore someone caused this post...i.e. CSflim
3. Therefore CSflim exists
4. Therefore CSflim has blond hair, blue eyes, enjoys fishing at the weekiend, likes the colour blue, has tentacles groiwng out of his ass, and loves you dearly.

So your arguemnt goes as follows.
1. The universe exists.
2. Thefore some completely unknowable, undefined force, external to the universe caused it.
3. This unknowable, undefinable, external cause, also caused itself.
4. Therefore God exists.

The fallacy of this arguemnt lies in point 4, which should read:
4. Therefore some completely unknowable, undefined force, external to the universe exists.

See the problem?

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costello

eh i guess i just think that "god" didnt cause itself ... god has no beginning. what do you think that unknowable, undefined force is that exists outside of the universe? doesnt seem too farfetched to me that it can be "god". i love you too

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"They don't even know what it is to be a fan. Y'know? To truly love some silly little piece of music, or some band, so much that it hurts."

-Almost Famous

archer2371

I wasn't purporting any argument that God created the universe (altho I believe He did) I was just saying that in a state of nature, like right now, something can't come from nothing, however, the 1st of TD breaks down at a quantum singularity (i.e. the point no bigger than this period ---->.) that was supposedly part of the Big Bang. In a way I was giving you more ammo for your argument against the existence of a God. Yet, what I am saying is that a scientist will always have to have something that currently exists to create another something.

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"This ain't no Ice Cream Social!"

"Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it."

"I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."

CSflim

"caused itself", and "had no beginning" are equivalent as far as this arguemnt is concerened. Both phrases are equally inadequate, as they both imply some sort of involvement of "time", which as I stated is meaningless.
Both phrases approximate to some other "term" for which we have no words to describe, as language is constructed by our needs to describe what we experience.

I would also ask you to re-read your question, "what do you think that unknowable, undefined force is that exists outside of the universe?". I think you will find quite clearly my answer is contined within your question.

As regards adding that you don't find something "too farfetched", I would remind you what you are proposing: A logical rational argument.

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Wyckd

1. Carbon dating still doesnt measre the exact age of artifacts, bones, and blah blah blah... especially earth

2. being gay is a Sin yes.. BUT! get this... you should know this if your parents, or if you are a christian. being born is a sin... why? because we are all cursed under adam to be born a sinner and die a sinner... so hetero and homosexual men are no different in god's eyes.. in God's eyes. all sins are forgiven through the blood of christ...

3. God told Noah how to build that arc... and told him exactly what size... God also told all the animals to come to Noah, and get on the arc... and dinosaurs... if you readthe bible.. and read the geneology of the people written in it.. they lived over 500 years old... even today, natrually many lizards' life span is a hundred years more than ours... and lizards do not hav a limit to how large they can grow.. in those days.. if a lizard was left to grow in such a open space of all of earth. they WILL become massive sizes of dinosaurs...

4. no... because when Jesus returns all of earth are given a chance to repent and believe he is the one and only saviour and God... if children die... or anyone dies. they will all be ressurected to answer to God, and be judged accordingly then...

5. it is impossible to make anything out of nothing.. why? because of Matter... it is something that takes up space... which can neither be destroyed nor created...

MuadDib

First of all I am a follower of evolutionary theory. I am up in the air on rather or not I believe in intellectual design or not or in Christian mythology. However, my ex-girlfriend's parents are creationists and her father has written many prominent articles on creation theory so I know the arguments pretty well from talking with them and being a bible group of theirs. Now that I'm past the disclaimer here goes my answers for you.

You can take a nonliteral approach to the Old Testament or look at it that a day of God's time is 1,000 yrs our time. These arguments aren't all too persuasive though and the more scientific answer is that there is actually a very lively scientific debate about carbon dating and its accuracy that isn't religiously based. The current fact is that by and large society thinks carbon dating is a tried and true tested method, but it is not and has very serious flaws and is wrong quite often. Also there has been evidence that rock and such can form in relatively short periods of time (like a bottle being found with a rock grown around it). In short, the scientific answer is that the evidence toward the Earth's age isn't to be taken at face value and the philosophical answer is to look at the old testament nonliterally.


First, the bible doesn't outright say homosexuality is a sin though it is VERY implicit. Second, it goes back to a why create evil thing. Humans are all sinful regardless of sexuality. It isn't just gay folks. Every one must carry the burden of their sins and work to refrain from them whenever possible and repent when they are committed. Homosexuality is just one such sin.

Because by and large the bible doesn't mention many animals at all. They were unimportant to the bible story so why bother. Also the structural design was given to Noah mind through God. I would think that with the help of God such a vessel could be built. Also, to get back to evolution, a more highly accepted argument is that there weren't as many animals then as there is today. Because of thousands of years of breeding microevolution (or speciation) talk place and now there are tons more species and genres of animals.

Not all demoninations believe in confession. Also, children are infinitely more innocent than adults and original sin is covered through baptism.

Ummm, no. She might be referring to some scientists that played with a bunch of chemicals and what not and made some amino acids (the building blocks of life). This is hardly creating life or making a sound case for evolution or big bang theory. Nor to my knowledge has it been replicated.

The post script is that I also wrestle with many of these issues and the answers I have been given. All I know is that personally I believe in evolution, equality and respect for homosexuals, bisexuals, and transgendered persons, and that modern Christianity is not what Christ intended.

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"The courts that first rode the warhorse of virtual representation into battle on the res judicata front invested their steed with near-magical properties." ~27 F.3d 751

Apache

2.- It's in the bible, or my bible anyway where it says "if a man lie with a man the way he does a woman(sorry if it's not worded exactly right) then its an abomination, the same as if a man lie with a beast (beastiality) and incest and ect. it's all an abomination. And God doesn't HATE anyone. I know many christians hate gays but I also read in my bible that it's not our place to judge anyone, and I don't.

4.- There's an age of accountability. Obviously a four year old doesn't have the knowledge of what's really right and wrong.

Mojo_PeiPei

1. First of Carbon dating putting the earth at 2 millions is way off base. Its assumed that the earth is (ballpark figure) 3-5 billion (correct me if I'm wrong). Further more according to the bible the earth would be closer to 5,000 years old. Yeah know, the part of the book that says the world is 5000 (or ten if you wanna split hairs) was written well over 2000 years ago, they weren't keen to our technology... I'll let it slide.

2. The bible is not a scientific manual, to read it as such is foolish. There is no real way of knowing. Outside of that I was taught that God loves all his children, if you wanna look at the Christian stance against homosexuality, there's a difference between being gay and acting on it.

3. refer to #1, Dinosaurs were around millions of years before Noah or Abraham.

4. Assuming you are baptised you are free of sin, further more many Christians believe in an "age of reason" (more specifically Catholics) which is 7. Its around that time that children are brought into the sacrament of reconciliation.

5. No clue...

As far as arguements about God's "age" and existence, my personal beliefs are that he exists outside of time and space. Time is a notion concieved by man, it is a measurement of planetary rotations and what not.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Tirian

All this talk about man creating life and the origin of the universe reminded me of a joke my son told me last week. I hope you all don't mind if I lighten this thread just a bit with a joke. OK here it is...

Scientist is talking to god;

"God" he says, "we have found the key to creation of life. We can now create man from the earth just as you did."

and so the scientist bends down and starts moulding a figure from the earth...

and God says "Wait just a minute ... Get your own dirt!"

----------EDIT

I post this as both a bit of fun, and a bit of reality.

For the scientists making amino acids they were starting with all the chemicals etc. that they used from here on earth. They did not start with the pre-universe nothing.

MuadDib

In all fairness though we assume that their was nothing preuniverse and for that matter that was a preuniverse at all. One thing that has always struck me as odd was how Christian have absolutely no problem imagining a God that has always been and will always be, but the concept of the universe or anything else having always existed is just unfathomable.

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"The courts that first rode the warhorse of virtual representation into battle on the res judicata front invested their steed with near-magical properties." ~27 F.3d 751

archer2371

Well, we'll all find out sooner or later right?

__________________
"This ain't no Ice Cream Social!"

"Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it."

"I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."

MuadDib

That is if there's an afterlife... otherwise no we won't.

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"The courts that first rode the warhorse of virtual representation into battle on the res judicata front invested their steed with near-magical properties." ~27 F.3d 751