Quote:
Originally posted by costello
eh i guess i just think that "god" didnt cause itself ... god has no beginning. what do you think that unknowable, undefined force is that exists outside of the universe? doesnt seem too farfetched to me that it can be "god". i love you too 
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"caused itself", and "had no beginning" are equivalent as far as this arguemnt is concerened. Both phrases are equally inadequate, as they both imply some sort of involvement of "time", which as I stated is meaningless.
Both phrases approximate to some other "term" for which we have no words to describe, as language is constructed by our needs to describe what we experience.
I would also ask you to re-read your question, "what do you think that unknowable, undefined force is that exists outside of the universe?". I think you will find quite clearly my answer is contined within your question.
As regards adding that you don't find something "too farfetched", I would remind you what you are proposing: A logical rational argument.